How to beat a damn pusher.

Z

zaph

Professional
Just beat a pusher 6-3, 6-2 and you will all say that is not very impressive. That is my first point of this post, if you go out onto court expecting to destroy a pusher, win every point and win without trying, you will lose. In my defence I have won 8 in a row in my local singles league, 7 of them against junkers/pusher but I also dropped a set in most of those matches. Give pushers and especially junkers respect, otherwise you'ill lose.

What made the difference for me is I have stopped trying to blast pushers off the court from the baseline and embraced the short ball. Unless you are having a very good day, you are not going to overpower a pusher from the back of the court. Instead use your superior spin, power and control to move them about. Useless you say because a damn pusher never misses, so what is the point of moving them? You're doing it to get them to cough up a short ball you can actually attack.

It is much easier to beat a pusher when you are higher up the court because it takes some of their time away. My standard tactic is pretty obvious, get on the forehand, target their backhand corner and wait till they hit short. In the old days I would have either blasted long or into the net at this point, I dreaded the short ball. The reason I did this is I tried to hit a winner with sheer pace, I felt I had to hit it really hard to beat the human wall.

Don't do that, you are not playing Djokovic, it doesn't have to be that good. Instead pick a spot on the court and aim to place the ball there. Yes hit it with spin and a bit of power but don't blast it. Hit in a controlled way. I basically aim for these places in that situation. Down the line, short angled ball or straight at the pusher, depending on where I am on the court. The last sounds nuts, straight at the pusher, after all they never miss but it works. Do it right and it is like a body serve, they can't get out of the way.

Don't be afraid to take a leaf out of the pushers book, if you are off balance or in a bad position, swallow your pride and play defensive. For example, I struggle to generate pace with backhand, so if I get a paceless ball on the side I can't run round, I hit a deep slice to stay in the rally. If I am forced backwards from the forecourt, I run back and hit a moonball to stay in the rally. You have to believe you are better than the pusher and not be afraid of staying in the point till you can take control back.

On the serve I actually play two spin second serves, one hit harder than the other. This sounds crazy, why give up potential free points against a human wall? The reason is, the pusher very rarely hits a double fault, so if you do you can find the score board pressure starts to build up and crush you. I have confidence I can beat the pusher in the rally, so I don't need to risk missing the serve.

On their serves I recommend moving up the court, standing so most of the service boxes is on your stronger side and really attacking it. Just like the short ball, place it into one of the spots. The pusher is often most vulnerable straight after their service action and it is a good time to try and get the ball past them.

One last piece of advice, don't get lazy and stop moving your feet. If you expect the match to be easy and disrespect your opponent, you will lose. I am still guilty of this myself. For example I lost a point when I hit a very good backhand drive down the line. I was in the lead, so indulged myself a bit. I stood their admiring the shot like I was playing golf, never expecting my opponent to run it down. He did, shanked it off the frame and it turned into a dropshot down the middle and he won the point.

In the old days I would I have been outraged, how dare the damn pusher win that point, it wasn't fair, it was a brilliant shot. This time I was outraged at myself, I lost that point due to my arrogance, I should I have expected the ball to come back and moved so I had a chance of doing something about it. The pusher played well, they played good tennis, they put the work in and got the ball back. It was my fault that happened and I congratulated my opponent on his good play.

Basically I am saying, if you want to win you have to put maximum effort in, accept pushers are tough opponents and don't get down if you lose games or even drop a set. Be confident in what you are doing and most of the time you will eventually get the win.
 
zaph said:
You might be able to rip winners off those ball but experience has taught me I would have to be having a very good day to pull that off. It is simply beyond my ability level.
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Watch how Nadal does it for inspiration. You have it within you for sure.
 
Slicehand said:
So, basically the tactic to beat almost everyone else, play agressive high percentage tennis
Click to expand...

Not really, if you want to beat a ball basher your best bet is to push or junk. If you want to beat a serve volleyer, once again you would have to play a different way.

Plus it is unlikely that other sorts of opponents are going to give you almost total control of the point the way a pusher does and just wait for an unforced error.
 
zaph said:
Not really, if you want to beat a ball basher your best bet is to push or junk. If you want to beat a serve volleyer, once again you would have to play a different way.

Plus it is unlikely that other sorts of opponents are going to give you almost total control of the point the way a pusher does and just wait for an unforced error.
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A coach once told me that even if you can make tactical adjustments to play against different types of players, you shouldnt change your game style depending on the player, if you are an agressive baseliner you should use what you do best, not suddenly serve and volley a lot or start to push, but yeah
 
Jonesy said:
So basically just push him harder, and become the king pusher. You lose your dignity but win the game.
Click to expand...

So basically you didn't understand what I wrote or don't know what a pusher is?

A pusher plays for unforced errors by keeping the ball in play, at the lowest levels that involves just putting the ball anywhere, as long as it is in play. What I was advocating was not that, it was waiting the right ball to attack.

I am winning most rallies in under 5 shots. Trust me I have tried to out push a pusher and you have to hit far more balls than that. You get dragged into ludicrous 20-30 shot rallies, in which you prod the ball and pray for an act of god to end it all.

You are obviously one of these people who thinks, unless you end a point in one or two shots with an 100mph screaming winning, you're pushing.
 
Could it be that pushers have really good technique, albeit in the most rudimentary form? Could it be that a professional tennis players stroke is nothing but a glorified push?
 
Pumpkin said:
Could it be that pushers have really good technique, albeit in the most rudimentary form? Could it be that a professional tennis players stroke is nothing but a glorified push?
Click to expand...

Pusher technique limits the amount of spin and pace you can generate. I don't want to be one of those who disrespects pushers or claim they are not real tennis players but those who say pushing is a developmental deadend are right.

They are difficult for rec players like myself and similar players because we struggle against those who don't give us unforced errors or pace to work with. Generating your own pace and actually winning the point, rather than be given the point via a UE, are not easy for rec level players.
 
zaph said:
Just beat a pusher 6-3, 6-2 and you will all say that is not very impressive. That is my first point of this post, if you go out onto court expecting to destroy a pusher, win every point and win without trying, you will lose. In my defence I have won 8 in a row in my local singles league, 7 of them against junkers/pusher but I also dropped a set in most of those matches. Give pushers and especially junkers respect, otherwise you'ill lose.

What made the difference for me is I have stopped trying to blast pushers off the court from the baseline and embraced the short ball. Unless you are having a very good day, you are not going to overpower a pusher from the back of the court. Instead use your superior spin, power and control to move them about. Useless you say because a damn pusher never misses, so what is the point of moving them? You're doing it to get them to cough up a short ball you can actually attack.

It is much easier to beat a pusher when you are higher up the court because it takes some of their time away. My standard tactic is pretty obvious, get on the forehand, target their backhand corner and wait till they hit short. In the old days I would have either blasted long or into the net at this point, I dreaded the short ball. The reason I did this is I tried to hit a winner with sheer pace, I felt I had to hit it really hard to beat the human wall.

Don't do that, you are not playing Djokovic, it doesn't have to be that good. Instead pick a spot on the court and aim to place the ball there. Yes hit it with spin and a bit of power but don't blast it. Hit in a controlled way. I basically aim for these places in that situation. Down the line, short angled ball or straight at the pusher, depending on where I am on the court. The last sounds nuts, straight at the pusher, after all they never miss but it works. Do it right and it is like a body serve, they can't get out of the way.

Don't be afraid to take a leaf out of the pushers book, if you are off balance or in a bad position, swallow your pride and play defensive. For example, I struggle to generate pace with backhand, so if I get a paceless ball on the side I can't run round, I hit a deep slice to stay in the rally. If I am forced backwards from the forecourt, I run back and hit a moonball to stay in the rally. You have to believe you are better than the pusher and not be afraid of staying in the point till you can take control back.

On the serve I actually play two spin second serves, one hit harder than the other. This sounds crazy, why give up potential free points against a human wall? The reason is, the pusher very rarely hits a double fault, so if you do you can find the score board pressure starts to build up and crush you. I have confidence I can beat the pusher in the rally, so I don't need to risk missing the serve.

On their serves I recommend moving up the court, standing so most of the service boxes is on your stronger side and really attacking it. Just like the short ball, place it into one of the spots. The pusher is often most vulnerable straight after their service action and it is a good time to try and get the ball past them.

One last piece of advice, don't get lazy and stop moving your feet. If you expect the match to be easy and disrespect your opponent, you will lose. I am still guilty of this myself. For example I lost a point when I hit a very good backhand drive down the line. I was in the lead, so indulged myself a bit. I stood their admiring the shot like I was playing golf, never expecting my opponent to run it down. He did, shanked it off the frame and it turned into a dropshot down the middle and he won the point.

In the old days I would I have been outraged, how dare the damn pusher win that point, it wasn't fair, it was a brilliant shot. This time I was outraged at myself, I lost that point due to my arrogance, I should I have expected the ball to come back and moved so I had a chance of doing something about it. The pusher played well, they played good tennis, they put the work in and got the ball back. It was my fault that happened and I congratulated my opponent on his good play.

Basically I am saying, if you want to win you have to put maximum effort in, accept pushers are tough opponents and don't get down if you lose games or even drop a set. Be confident in what you are doing and most of the time you will eventually get the win.
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Isn’t this a good strategy regardless of who is on the other side? You played within yourself and played with judicious aggression.

Why not do the same against someone better and hitting much harder? If you are around the same level as that better opponent then playing it smart and safe gives you a great chance to win. If your opponent is way better than you, some might say to take a lot of risks. My feeling even there is that you will lose anyway. So just keep playing it smart and be opportunistic and don’t do anything drastically different regardless of who is on the other side of the net.
 
Jonesy said:
So basically just push him harder, and become the king pusher. You lose your dignity but win the game.
Click to expand...

What is undignified about being a pusher?

I posted it elsewhere, but Ivan Lendl played a match against Jimmy Connors decades ago where he got Connors calling him a "sissy f****t playing pusher". Lendl was slicing a lot of balls, even floating some of those slices deep instead of going for more bite, most of his forehands were much loopier than usual and he left quite a few balls short to draw Connors forward. He was pushing and junk balling every now during the match and Connors just crumbled. Fabrice Santoro also famously made a career out of hitting junk and he has some interesting figures upsetting top ten players and even world number ones.

Personally, what I find undignified is looking down on how other players choose to play the game. I know that a lot of people hate playing pushers and they will even avoid having them as hitting partners even as those pushers are being very competitive against them. Frankly, they probably truly hate playing pushers because pushers slowly dissolve the fantasy they have of themselves being great tennis players and they rationalize that hatred as being unable to practice "proper tennis." I know many pushers with whom you can absolutely set up proper practice and even drills and they'll even allow you to warm up properly. They just happen to not be dumb enough to play your game.

My personal edge on a tennis court at my level is my serve and I play enough doubles to have made my net game competitive. I play a lot of serve and volley and chip and charge sequences. My entire game is built on killing rhythm, forcing you to dig balls back up and making poor ball contact likelier... Pushers often do something similar, except they're doing it from the baseline because what they do better than most players at their level is chasing down one more ball and keep it in play. The best of them eventually learn to hit that rally ball and that flat shot we all consider to be standard parts of tennis -- and they'll just wait for a weak shot, when you're out of position to pull the trigger just the one time. These guys are just deadly. If you can do that, you can do that very far up the advanced player scale and be successful -- see Santoro.
 
zaph said:
Just beat a pusher 6-3, 6-2 and you will all say that is not very impressive. That is my first point of this post, if you go out onto court expecting to destroy a pusher, win every point and win without trying, you will lose. In my defence I have won 8 in a row in my local singles league, 7 of them against junkers/pusher but I also dropped a set in most of those matches. Give pushers and especially junkers respect, otherwise you'ill lose.

What made the difference for me is I have stopped trying to blast pushers off the court from the baseline and embraced the short ball. Unless you are having a very good day, you are not going to overpower a pusher from the back of the court. Instead use your superior spin, power and control to move them about. Useless you say because a damn pusher never misses, so what is the point of moving them? You're doing it to get them to cough up a short ball you can actually attack.

It is much easier to beat a pusher when you are higher up the court because it takes some of their time away. My standard tactic is pretty obvious, get on the forehand, target their backhand corner and wait till they hit short. In the old days I would have either blasted long or into the net at this point, I dreaded the short ball. The reason I did this is I tried to hit a winner with sheer pace, I felt I had to hit it really hard to beat the human wall.

Don't do that, you are not playing Djokovic, it doesn't have to be that good. Instead pick a spot on the court and aim to place the ball there. Yes hit it with spin and a bit of power but don't blast it. Hit in a controlled way. I basically aim for these places in that situation. Down the line, short angled ball or straight at the pusher, depending on where I am on the court. The last sounds nuts, straight at the pusher, after all they never miss but it works. Do it right and it is like a body serve, they can't get out of the way.

Don't be afraid to take a leaf out of the pushers book, if you are off balance or in a bad position, swallow your pride and play defensive. For example, I struggle to generate pace with backhand, so if I get a paceless ball on the side I can't run round, I hit a deep slice to stay in the rally. If I am forced backwards from the forecourt, I run back and hit a moonball to stay in the rally. You have to believe you are better than the pusher and not be afraid of staying in the point till you can take control back.

On the serve I actually play two spin second serves, one hit harder than the other. This sounds crazy, why give up potential free points against a human wall? The reason is, the pusher very rarely hits a double fault, so if you do you can find the score board pressure starts to build up and crush you. I have confidence I can beat the pusher in the rally, so I don't need to risk missing the serve.

On their serves I recommend moving up the court, standing so most of the service boxes is on your stronger side and really attacking it. Just like the short ball, place it into one of the spots. The pusher is often most vulnerable straight after their service action and it is a good time to try and get the ball past them.

One last piece of advice, don't get lazy and stop moving your feet. If you expect the match to be easy and disrespect your opponent, you will lose. I am still guilty of this myself. For example I lost a point when I hit a very good backhand drive down the line. I was in the lead, so indulged myself a bit. I stood their admiring the shot like I was playing golf, never expecting my opponent to run it down. He did, shanked it off the frame and it turned into a dropshot down the middle and he won the point.

In the old days I would I have been outraged, how dare the damn pusher win that point, it wasn't fair, it was a brilliant shot. This time I was outraged at myself, I lost that point due to my arrogance, I should I have expected the ball to come back and moved so I had a chance of doing something about it. The pusher played well, they played good tennis, they put the work in and got the ball back. It was my fault that happened and I congratulated my opponent on his good play.

Basically I am saying, if you want to win you have to put maximum effort in, accept pushers are tough opponents and don't get down if you lose games or even drop a set. Be confident in what you are doing and most of the time you will eventually get the win.
Click to expand...
Good self-awareness and advice, should help someone despite the peanut gallery.
Slicehand said:
So, basically the tactic to beat almost everyone else, play agressive high percentage tennis
Click to expand...
That's really over-simplifying what the OP wrote.
Jonesy said:
So basically just push him harder, and become the king pusher. You lose your dignity but win the game.
Click to expand...
That's one strategy, but there's more aggressiveness described by OP than that, I think.
Slicehand said:
A coach once told me that even if you can make tactical adjustments to play against different types of players, you shouldnt change your game style depending on the player, if you are an agressive baseliner you should use what you do best, not suddenly serve and volley a lot or start to push, but yeah
Click to expand...
I think you heard something different than what that coach was saying or he was giving you that strategy because one style he saw you play was incredibly superior to any other style you had the ability to play. That's a really rigid thing to tell a student, it's more applicable to one dimensional capabilities.
Pumpkin said:
Could it be that pushers have really good technique, albeit in the most rudimentary form? Could it be that a professional tennis players stroke is nothing but a glorified push?
Click to expand...
Nope and definitely nope.
 
SV10is said:
What is undignified about being a pusher?

I posted it elsewhere, but Ivan Lendl played a match against Jimmy Connors decades ago where he got Connors calling him a "sissy f****t playing pusher". Lendl was slicing a lot of balls, even floating some of those slices deep instead of going for more bite, most of his forehands were much loopier than usual and he left quite a few balls short to draw Connors forward. He was pushing and junk balling every now during the match and Connors just crumbled. Fabrice Santoro also famously made a career out of hitting junk and he has some interesting figures upsetting top ten players and even world number ones.

Personally, what I find undignified is looking down on how other players choose to play the game. I know that a lot of people hate playing pushers and they will even avoid having them as hitting partners even as those pushers are being very competitive against them. Frankly, they probably truly hate playing pushers because pushers slowly dissolve the fantasy they have of themselves being great tennis players and they rationalize that hatred as being unable to practice "proper tennis." I know many pushers with whom you can absolutely set up proper practice and even drills and they'll even allow you to warm up properly. They just happen to not be dumb enough to play your game.

My personal edge on a tennis court at my level is my serve and I play enough doubles to have made my net game competitive. I play a lot of serve and volley and chip and charge sequences. My entire game is built on killing rhythm, forcing you to dig balls back up and making poor ball contact likelier... Pushers often do something similar, except they're doing it from the baseline because what they do better than most players at their level is chasing down one more ball and keep it in play. The best of them eventually learn to hit that rally ball and that flat shot we all consider to be standard parts of tennis -- and they'll just wait for a weak shot, when you're out of position to pull the trigger just the one time. These guys are just deadly. If you can do that, you can do that very far up the advanced player scale and be successful -- see Santoro.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't start or entertain a conversation about a pusher and throw in Ivan Lendl into that category just because an irate Connors once called him a pusher. There was nothing relative to even a 4.5 rated "pusher" that Lendl was doing there.

Pushers aren't quite doing what you do in doubles, I'm sure you have accuracy. Let's put it this way, hypothetically grab a couple of rec pushers if they describe themselves as such, see how they do against equal rated players in doubles. Maybe you associate pusher talk as a direct attack on your style of play and hence the defensiveness?

"see Santoro". Man, rec pushers aren't even winning 4.5 singles tournaments, under 18, how would they become Santoro. He's a whole other class of player than a rec pusher.
 
Jonesy said:
Not my style, i'd rather lose and use the bad feeling as motivation to improve. Each one with their own poison.
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I confessed that I am not wired that why. I do not enjoy losing matches playing suboptimal strategy against opponents I can beat playing another way.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
Good self-awareness and advice, should help someone despite the peanut gallery.

That's really over-simplifying what the OP wrote.

That's one strategy, but there's more aggressiveness described by OP than that, I think.

I think you heard something different than what that coach was saying or he was giving you that strategy because one style he saw you play was incredibly superior to any other style you had the ability to play. That's a really rigid thing to tell a student, it's more applicable to one dimensional capabilities.

Nope and definitely nope.
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No thats what he said, he is a well recognized coach around here, it makes sense, you can change tactics a bit, but not change your whole gamestyle, if what you do best is being agressive from the baseline that should be your base, because if you could win matches serving and volleying too you are probably a very complete player, and you dont find many of those at rec level, that doesnt mean that you cant finish points at the net if the match asks for it, its like being an agressive player and become a pusher because you want to win against other agressive player, you dont see pros doing that, if you are vetter agressive player than pusher dont push, thats an example, the point is that you should pkay your game, not think that much about oponent, at rec level you have too many things to worry about in ypur side of the net, people too often get to crazy abput tactics and they may even not be able to do a proper change of direction consistently
 
mcs1970 said:
Isn’t this a good strategy regardless of who is on the other side? You played within yourself and played with judicious aggression.
Click to expand...

What you should be doing on a tennis court will always vary depending on the player on the other side. For example, for most amateurs the backhand is the weaker ground stroke, but not everyone has an equal forehand to backhand imbalance. Although your usual approach to a baseline rally would be to keep it cross-court in singles, a sufficient imbalance between forehand and backhand can make targeting the backhand appealing. The down side is that you may have to change direction fairly often, but a sufficient imbalance can allow you to get away with a softer down the line shot. It's likely to force the opponent to cheat their position, to run around more often and to over hit more often in an effort to shield that backhand -- and that can be worth the added risk.

If your game tends to revolve around aggressive play from the baseline, but you're facing a pusher then maybe you need to revise your approach a little bit. Most of them cannot hit solid passing shots and most of them will leave short and low balls making slices a much safer option. Suddenly, those aspects of your game that may not be as good might actually be good enough options. Moving forward more often can force adjustments on their end that might give you more playable junk more often -- and it might win you a few points outright. If you just sit there trying to hit the same ball you usually hit against someone who gives you rhythm and pace, you'll likely loose that match because that's exactly how those players win their matches. Hell, you might even throw in a few S&V and C&C sequences that almost never use because they might just give you volleys your less than shinning net game can handle.

Except for the serve, everything is a reaction to what your opponent does. You can't just come to the court with the same plan against everyone, every day and no matter how you happen to play that day and still hope to win regularly.
 
Slicehand said:
No thats what he said, he is a well recognized coach around here, it makes sense, you can change tactics a bit, but not change your whole gamestyle, if what you do best is being agressive from the baseline that should be your base, because if you could win matches serving and volleying too you are probably a very complete player, and you dont find many of those at rec level, that doesnt mean that you cant finish points at the net if the match asks for it, its like being an agressive player and become a pusher because you want to win against other agressive player, you dont see pros doing that, if you are vetter agressive player than pusher dont push, thats an example, the point is that you should pkay your game, not think that much about oponent, at rec level you have too many things to worry about in ypur side of the net, people too often get to crazy abput tactics and they may even not be able to do a proper change of direction consistently
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I'll take your word for it, but it's surprising, I can do a few different styles and most coaches I've encountered try to instill some variety. It's always good to observe the pros, but sometimes I have a hard time digesting a "look what the pros" do attitude toward rec tennis, you can be good at a few things at the rec tennis level much easier than what a pro level expertise demands. But, I get the gist of what your pro is saying, don't try to overthink it. I'd be wary of that though until I saw someone play and knew their own limitations and mental game. Kind of what @SV10is wrote.
 
zaph said:
So basically you didn't understand what I wrote or don't know what a pusher is?

A pusher plays for unforced errors by keeping the ball in play, at the lowest levels that involves just putting the ball anywhere, as long as it is in play. What I was advocating was not that, it was waiting the right ball to attack.

I am winning most rallies in under 5 shots. Trust me I have tried to out push a pusher and you have to hit far more balls than that. You get dragged into ludicrous 20-30 shot rallies, in which you prod the ball and pray for an act of god to end it all.

You are obviously one of these people who thinks, unless you end a point in one or two shots with an 100mph screaming winning, you're pushing.
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If it works for you there is nothing else to say. I go a different path, if the ball is easy i attack, if i miss then it is because i did something wrong and need to fix it so i don't do it next time. That is my way of not getting complacent and work for improvement.
 
zaph said:
You might be able to rip winners off those ball but experience has taught me I would have to be having a very good day to pull that off. It is simply beyond my ability level.
Click to expand...


True. Haven't met any rec level players able to just continually rip winners across multiple sets.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
I wouldn't start or entertain a conversation about a pusher and throw in Ivan Lendl into that category just because an irate Connors once called him a pusher. There was nothing relative to even a 4.5 rated "pusher" that Lendl was doing there.
Click to expand...

The point of mentioning Lendl's match against Connors and Santoro is to illustrate the general principle behind a pusher's approach to tennis match works all the way up to the top of the game. It's exactly the same point absolutely everyone makes on that forum by invoking what professional players do in terms of technique, strategy and tactics as point of references... It's fairly obvious that the quality of the execution will differ and that this difference means amateurs are facing different trade offs.

Pushers that play competitively at 3.0 to 4.5 level aren't Ivan Lendl or Fabrice Santoro. Also, the sky is blue and the Earth is not flat.

FuzzyYellowBalls said:
Man, rec pushers aren't even winning 4.5 singles tournaments, under 18, how would they become Santoro. He's a whole other class of player than a rec pusher.
Click to expand...

Again, that's just being obtuse. Santoro was obviously pushing and junk balling at an elite level. It shows well executed junk can irritate the best players in the world, so it's not shocking that it irritates some of the worst players in the world. Of course, Santoro could also hit solid ground strokes, had a great return of serve, hit big enough serves to play ATP tennis and he ran much faster than most 3.0 players... In French, we have an idiom for what you're doing here. We'd say your tripping over in the flowers in the carpet (with the idea that the flowers are dyed right into it, so there's really nothing to trip over). That's getting bogged down in small, irrelevant detail when the meaning is fairly clear:

Pushing isn't a bad strategy. It works all the way up to the ATP. You just need much better execution and the ability to hit "regular" shots from time to time to make it work at higher levels, but that's the same as saying you need to hit better ground strokes to play baseline rallies at higher levels.
 
travlerajm said:
I confessed that I am not wired that why. I do not enjoy losing matches playing suboptimal strategy against opponents I can beat playing another way.
Click to expand...
I used to do that too, but the bad feeling that came with winning by holding back on my strokes that i worked hard to develop was just too much.
 
SV10is said:
What you should be doing on a tennis court will always vary depending on the player on the other side. For example, for most amateurs the backhand is the weaker ground stroke, but not everyone has an equal forehand to backhand imbalance. Although your usual approach to a baseline rally would be to keep it cross-court in singles, a sufficient imbalance between forehand and backhand can make targeting the backhand appealing. The down side is that you may have to change direction fairly often, but a sufficient imbalance can allow you to get away with a softer down the line shot. It's likely to force the opponent to cheat their position, to run around more often and to over hit more often in an effort to shield that backhand -- and that can be worth the added risk.

If your game tends to revolve around aggressive play from the baseline, but you're facing a pusher then maybe you need to revise your approach a little bit. Most of them cannot hit solid passing shots and most of them will leave short and low balls making slices a much safer option. Suddenly, those aspects of your game that may not be as good might actually be good enough options. Moving forward more often can force adjustments on their end that might give you more playable junk more often -- and it might win you a few points outright. If you just sit there trying to hit the same ball you usually hit against someone who gives you rhythm and pace, you'll likely loose that match because that's exactly how those players win their matches. Hell, you might even throw in a few S&V and C&C sequences that almost never use because they might just give you volleys your less than shinning net game can handle.

Except for the serve, everything is a reaction to what your opponent does. You can't just come to the court with the same plan against everyone, every day and no matter how you happen to play that day and still hope to win regularly.
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At the lower rec level there are very few players who can drastically change their games.

Read again what I wrote. I said playing within oneself and judicious aggression, which is how the OP described his approach, should work against any opponent.

Where does that imply it is 100% playing the same way? Judicious aggression against a stronger baseline player would be a slightly different shot than judicious aggression against a pusher where you might come a bit closer to the net knowing he cannot pass you. The general mentality of not beating yourself and when and how to go for a slightly more aggressive shot can translate well across any opponent you face.
 
Jonesy said:
I used to do that too, but the bad feeling that came with winning by holding back on my strokes that i worked hard to develop was just too much.
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No one is saying that you should not seek to execute proper technique. The point is your shot selection should adapt depending on circumstances and opponent. Unless you're trying to bash every ball you see coming at you from the baseline, you're not hitting most of your shot at full force all the time anyways. Hitting rally balls at 80-90% power isn't holding back. Slicing a few more backhands because your opponent blows at footwork and hitting low balls isn't holding back.
 
mcs1970 said:
At the lower rec level there are very few players who can drastically change their games.

Read again what I wrote. I said playing within oneself and judicious aggression, which is how the OP described his approach, should work against any opponent.

Where does that imply it is 100% playing the same way? Judicious aggression against a stronger baseline player would be a slightly different shot than judicious aggression against a pusher where you might come a bit closer to the net knowing he cannot pass you. The general mentality of not beating yourself and when and how to go for a slightly more aggressive shot can translate well across any opponent you face.
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It's just an issue of semantics. I seem to have focused too much on the word "strategy" and thought it meant something more specific than it did. Finding the right level and kind of aggression within your strengths is a good idea no matter how you happen to play tennis more broadly and no matter what opponent you face.

Sorry, for the misunderstanding.
 
SV10is said:
The point of mentioning Lendl's match against Connors and Santoro is to illustrate the general principle behind a pusher's approach to tennis match works all the way up to the top of the game.

Again, that's just being obtuse. Santoro was obviously pushing and junk balling at an elite level.

Pushing isn't a bad strategy. It works all the way up to the ATP. You just need much better execution and the ability to hit "regular" shots from time to time to make it work at higher levels, but that's the same as saying you need to hit better ground strokes to play baseline rallies at higher levels.
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Ok, it's more of a vocabulary issue if you will indulge me.

Pushers don't win 4.5 singles tournaments nor are they featured at sectionals and nationals at that level at #1 singles unless the captain is tanking that line. Pushers don't play in college at a high level. So I don't use the pusher up and down levels of tennis play....

I save the word counterpuncher for these players that I loosely descried, including anyone on the tour that plays like you mentioned.
 
Ah, the often posted and oft secret to besting pushers… congratulations on the win. Revel in it because the good pushers are good learners. They won’t make the same shot or error twice. How do I know? I’m on a team with one and everyone who plays him hates playing against him. OP’s advice is valid especially about keeping the feet moving. I just know I’m going to be in a marathon if I play a pusher. There’s no easy way. Pushers turn the game from a racquet sport into a running sport. And if you can’t out run, you’re already behind. Big targets do help. And solid volleying is also helpful too. And there are pushers on every level from recreational all the way to pros. They’re a part of the game.
 
SV10is said:
No one is saying that you should not seek to execute proper technique. The point is your shot selection should adapt depending on circumstances and opponent. Unless you're trying to bash every ball you see coming at you from the baseline, you're not hitting most of your shot at full force all the time anyways. Hitting rally balls at 80-90% power isn't holding back. Slicing a few more backhands because your opponent blows at footwork and hitting low balls isn't holding back.
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If my opponent blows at footwork i'd rather go for topspin winners. Slice is a defensive sin, if my opponent does any of it then it is an invitation to be attacked.
 
SV10is said:
What you should be doing on a tennis court will always vary depending on the player on the other side. For example, for most amateurs the backhand is the weaker ground stroke, but not everyone has an equal forehand to backhand imbalance. Although your usual approach to a baseline rally would be to keep it cross-court in singles, a sufficient imbalance between forehand and backhand can make targeting the backhand appealing. The down side is that you may have to change direction fairly often, but a sufficient imbalance can allow you to get away with a softer down the line shot. It's likely to force the opponent to cheat their position, to run around more often and to over hit more often in an effort to shield that backhand -- and that can be worth the added risk.

If your game tends to revolve around aggressive play from the baseline, but you're facing a pusher then maybe you need to revise your approach a little bit. Most of them cannot hit solid passing shots and most of them will leave short and low balls making slices a much safer option. Suddenly, those aspects of your game that may not be as good might actually be good enough options. Moving forward more often can force adjustments on their end that might give you more playable junk more often -- and it might win you a few points outright. If you just sit there trying to hit the same ball you usually hit against someone who gives you rhythm and pace, you'll likely loose that match because that's exactly how those players win their matches. Hell, you might even throw in a few S&V and C&C sequences that almost never use because they might just give you volleys your less than shinning net game can handle.

Except for the serve, everything is a reaction to what your opponent does. You can't just come to the court with the same plan against everyone, every day and no matter how you happen to play that day and still hope to win regularly.
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Even the serve can require a reaction to your opponent. If I see my opponent positioned 8 feet behind the baseline to receive, I’m thinking S&V behind a slow bendy wide serve is an excellent safe winning strategy. If he stands inside the baseline to receive, a faster serve to take away his reaction time may be the best play.
 
Devil_dog said:
Ah, the often posted and oft secret to besting pushers… congratulations on the win. Revel in it because the good pushers are good learners. They won’t make the same shot or error twice. How do I know? I’m on a team with one and everyone who plays him hates playing against him. OP’s advice is valid especially about keeping the feet moving. I just know I’m going to be in a marathon if I play a pusher. There’s no easy way. Pushers turn the game from a racquet sport into a running sport. And if you can’t out run, you’re already behind. Big targets do help. And solid volleying is also helpful too. And there are pushers on every level from recreational all the way to pros. They’re a part of the game.
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It doesn’t matter if opponent is a pusher or a pure serve and volleyer that goes for a winner on every shot. All that matters is the opponent’s level. I am 4.5 and would beat every 3.5 easily regardless of how they play.
So you probably just beat someone that was way below ur level
 
ChaelAZ said:
True. Haven't met any rec level players able to just continually rip winners across multiple sets.
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Unless they are playing sufficiently below their own level, that's not going to happen. The only time I could do that in recent memory is when I played singles against a doubles team -- and, I won 2/3 sets, so you can imagine the difference in skills. Neither had a great serve, but one of them would let it have a fair bounce, so it would basically sit mid court above the net level and below my shoulders. When I stopped toying with them, I started ripping every serve return. He lost like 5 service games in a row at love or 15.

I suspect most people here also have a range of balls they could just murder with an 80-90% success rate. It's simply that this range is too small to make it workable in a match against players that are competitive against them: most of their peers will not give them the kind of ball they can reliably attack too often.
 
austintennis2005 said:
It doesn’t matter if opponent is a pusher or a pure serve and volleyer that goes for a winner on every shot. All that matters is the opponent’s level. I am 4.5 and would beat every 3.5 easily regardless of how they play. So you probably just beat someone that was way below your level.
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That's the idea behind different playing levels: an appraisal of which match ups would be interesting and which ones would be too one-sided. There are 4.5 pushers and they don't exactly play the same way 3.5 pushers play. Obviously, a 3.5 serve and volley player will not have the same serve as a 4.5 doing the same thing. At some point, the gap in skills across playing situations is just so large that one player will win almost all the points most of the time.

It's always relative to playing level. If a pusher can be competitive against 4.5, he has to be around 4.0 or 4.5 himself. As gaps get closer, strategic match ups become more important. If they can play their strengths against your weaknesses, but the opposite isn't true, they'll win more often than not even though you'd both do equally well against a pool of players of the same level. A person whose game is attacking a lot from the baseline (say, an amateur version of what Berdych and Soderlign used to do, so basically a ball basher) is going to have more trouble playing people whose game is based off slowing things down, keeping balls uncomfortably low and short or deep and high than against someone who is a bit more aggressive and keep a steady mid paced rally going to generate short balls.

If you're playing two levels down, it probably doesn't matter that they attack your "weak" backhand. It's still a better shot than their best forehand.
 
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Devil_dog said:
Ah, the often posted and oft secret to besting pushers… congratulations on the win. Revel in it because the good pushers are good learners. They won’t make the same shot or error twice. How do I know? I’m on a team with one and everyone who plays him hates playing against him. OP’s advice is valid especially about keeping the feet moving. I just know I’m going to be in a marathon if I play a pusher. There’s no easy way. Pushers turn the game from a racquet sport into a running sport. And if you can’t out run, you’re already behind. Big targets do help. And solid volleying is also helpful too. And there are pushers on every level from recreational all the way to pros. They’re a part of the game.
Click to expand...
I'd say they become counterpunchers at some point. The past few years I've seen so many pushers be obliterated from the early rounds of 4.5 singles tourneys. Otherwise the category of pusher is so large it's almost larger than any other style of tennis and at that point isn't it hard to discuss what a pusher is if both a 2.5 is a pusher and an ATP pro is a pusher? In the college tennis days we called them counterpunchers as well.
 
Tennis ratings are somewhat misleading. Case in point, my last USTA mixed doubles match. Mechanically, my partner (1st time I was paired with her) and I were better, taking nothing away from our opponents. They were tricky serving (unconventional), had good aim, lobbed effectively, and seemed to get everything back (albeit junk). We lost the first set but had their unidimensional game figured out. Games were long because of all the back and forth but we waited and pounced at the right time. Demolished them in the tiebreaker 10-2. Patience and stopping with the unforced errors was the key. Learning how to win (mentally) is part of the game.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
I'd say they become counterpunchers at some point. The past few years I've seen so many pushers be obliterated from the early rounds of 4.5 singles tourneys. Otherwise the category of pusher is so large it's almost larger than any other style of tennis and at that point isn't it hard to discuss what a pusher is if both a 2.5 is a pusher and an ATP pro is a pusher? In the college tennis days we called them counterpunchers as well.
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So, you'd call Fabrice Santoro a counterpuncher? You would place him in the same category as Andy Murray and Lleyton Hewitt?

I would define a pusher by their reliance on a high percentage of "junk" balls: they hit more slices, drop shots, lobs, and whatever looks like a "moonball" at their level of play than the average player. A Counterpuncher is someone who usually will keep up a baseline rally with top spin ground strokes that look just like those of aggressive baseline players and all court players, but their defining feature is that they will generally use your pace against you: the name comes from them turning the table when you feed them enough pace.
 
SV10is said:
That's not the same game. You'd put Federer in the same category as a 3.5 all court player?

Clearly, you're missing the point.
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I might be missing the point, but shifting by asking me questions not related directly to the reasons I outlined for why the word counterpuncher is more apt than pusher isn't going to help anyone get to any point, it's just going to make us have some silly discussion about new questions you are coming up with, you're clever enough to realize this right? Why go back and forth on a side topic.
 
justRick said:
Tennis ratings are somewhat misleading. Case in point, my last USTA mixed doubles match. Mechanically, my partner (1st time I was paired with her) and I were better, taking nothing away from our opponents. They were tricky serving (unconventional), had good aim, lobbed effectively, and seemed to get everything back (albeit junk). We lost the first set but had their unidimensional game figured out. Games were long because of all the back and forth but we waited and pounced at the right time. Demolished them in the tiebreaker 10-2. Patience and stopping with the unforced errors was the key. Learning how to win (mentally) is part of the game.
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maybe they just got tired instead of your brilliance in 'figuring them out' lol
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
I might be missing the point, but shifting by asking me questions not related directly to the reasons I outlined for why the word counterpuncher is more apt than pusher isn't going to help anyone get to any point, it's just going to make us have some silly discussion about new questions you are coming up with, you're clever enough to realize this right? Why go back and forth on a side topic.
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I already said why I think CP doesn't fit. I define a pusher by their unusual reliance on "junk" and CP, in contrasts, usually are happy to rally with top spin groundies all day.

Hence the questions about Federer, Santoro and Hewitt. Of course, a 3.0 CP isn't playing like Hewitt -- his ground strokes will be much slower and flatter. I'm saying that this player who hit soft groundies isn't what I mean by pusher -- I mean that he's hitting more "junk" like moonballs, slices, lobs and drop shots.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
I'll take your word for it, but it's surprising, I can do a few different styles and most coaches I've encountered try to instill some variety. It's always good to observe the pros, but sometimes I have a hard time digesting a "look what the pros" do attitude toward rec tennis, you can be good at a few things at the rec tennis level much easier than what a pro level expertise demands. But, I get the gist of what your pro is saying, don't try to overthink it. I'd be wary of that though until I saw someone play and knew their own limitations and mental game. Kind of what @SV10is wrote.
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But to keep a playing style doesnt take away to add variety, i think we would agree that the basic tennis strategy is to put your strength against the opponent weakness right?, thats what he was refering to, like, not because you are training volleys now, you go into a match and try to serve and volley half of the points, things like that, and at high rec levels i dont think its easy to "do a lot of styles", that means you are crafty in a lot of things, but thats the exception, i dont think it has anything to do with mental limitations either, you are always gonna have a shot thats better than the others, you must try to use that, obviously if that shot is not hurting your opponent, you need to try and use it in a different way, but thats not really changing your playing style
 
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SV10is said:
What you should be doing on a tennis court will always vary depending on the player on the other side. For example, for most amateurs the backhand is the weaker ground stroke, but not everyone has an equal forehand to backhand imbalance. Although your usual approach to a baseline rally would be to keep it cross-court in singles, a sufficient imbalance between forehand and backhand can make targeting the backhand appealing. The down side is that you may have to change direction fairly often, but a sufficient imbalance can allow you to get away with a softer down the line shot. It's likely to force the opponent to cheat their position, to run around more often and to over hit more often in an effort to shield that backhand -- and that can be worth the added risk.

If your game tends to revolve around aggressive play from the baseline, but you're facing a pusher then maybe you need to revise your approach a little bit. Most of them cannot hit solid passing shots and most of them will leave short and low balls making slices a much safer option. Suddenly, those aspects of your game that may not be as good might actually be good enough options. Moving forward more often can force adjustments on their end that might give you more playable junk more often -- and it might win you a few points outright. If you just sit there trying to hit the same ball you usually hit against someone who gives you rhythm and pace, you'll likely loose that match because that's exactly how those players win their matches. Hell, you might even throw in a few S&V and C&C sequences that almost never use because they might just give you volleys your less than shinning net game can handle.

Except for the serve, everything is a reaction to what your opponent does. You can't just come to the court with the same plan against everyone, every day and no matter how you happen to play that day and still hope to win regularly.
Click to expand...
I agree in some things but not in others, if you are agressive and you face a pusher, you should definetly down your revs, but if youre agressive and are hitting slices off short balls... youre not being agressive anymore, very low balls requiere it, but at a decent rec level you should be able to hit topspin forehands off short balls, also, at rec level there are many technical deficiencies, its useless to think a lot about the other when you have to do your things good first, intuitive tennis has a video on that and its veru interesting, i think its called tennis tactics, its true the statment that everything you do is related to how your opponent is playing, but that you make adjustments doesnt mean that you have to change your personality, its not going out there with the same plan evrery time, you would have to have very little match experience to do that, but you must know what your strengths are, and then, adapt them to the balls you are getting, but if you start to think a lot about the other and you cant make two passing shots in a row, or change directions precisely... you should be thinking more about your side of the court
 
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