How to beat a heavy top spin opponent?

[drnantu]

I played tennis since Aug. 2008. I recently played in a local 3.5 weekend league. I lost to a heavy top spin opponent 1-4 (small set). His balls came over at about 5-7 feet above the net and landed behind the service line, then jumped high above my head. These balls had no pace as he did not hit but mostly armed the balls. I had to stand 6-10 feet behind the baseline and hit top spin forehand drives or backhand slices. I currently use an eastern forehand and found it very difficult to deal with these heavy top spin balls. So I lost most of my points due to unforced errors.
I thought of a few solutions:
1: Go to the net either with S&V or chip and charge.
2: Drop shot to his backhand and follow by either a lob or a passing shot.
3: Change to a semi-western forehand and rally with him. (but currently his consistance is better than mine)

What are your thoughts on this? Thanks.

 

[ci2ca]

Take the ball earlier to not let the spin keep you back.

 

[toptalent]

Because you felt the balls "had no pace", I'm guessing that you might be confusing the "heavy top spin balls" with the high "moon balls" (with jumps high after landing because of gravity).

A true heavy top spin ball that clears the net by a large margin (high trajectory) and lands deep is a very penetrating shot that's hit with lots of pace. Think about Nadal. If your opponent is indeed capable of hitting such shots, it would probably take a lot more than just "a few solutions" to beat it. You'd have to develop equally strong ground strokes as well as overall improved game (timing, control of the point etc). I highly doubt players in the 3.5 league can actually produce these shots.

If it's a "moon ball" thats "mostly armed" with "no pace", you'd have so many options. You can move in and take the ball on the rise. Or you can come to the net and try to kill the ball with a swing volley or overhead (since the ball has no pace, it should be floating over the net giving you plenty of time).

Most importantly, you should tweak your game to give him a hard time moon balling you. Keep your shots nice and deep to pin HIM back, and move him around the court with angles. The further he's from the baseline, the more unbalanced you make him, the harder it is for him to successfully moon ball you without error or setthing himself up to be smashed.

Remember against a moon baller the last thing you want to do is hitting the same shot again and again into his comfort zone, so that he can easily moonball you while barely having to move, saving lots of energy and increasing your chance of error from over hitting and/or frustration.

 

[larry10s]

^^^^good advice. try to approach and come in or sneak in so you can take the ball as an overhead/ swing/ high volley. bringing him in on your terms drop shot, short slices , angles will also put him in a difficult position to moon ball you. i agree you are seeing a moonballer/pusher not heavy topspinner

 

[Josherer]

Hit the ball on the rise.

 

[Josherer]

Or move back in the court but be sure to move into the shot...

 

[Slicendicer]

hit flat and/or short and low slice

 

[mikeler]

Learn how to take balls out of the air before they bounce too.

 

[Nellie]

^^^ Yes - if the ball has no pace, hit a swinging volley, like a regular grounds stroke, just without letting the ball bounce. Even if you hit conservatively, taking time from the opponent will wreck their strategy.

 

[drummerdan]

I played tennis since Aug. 2008. I recently played in a local 3.5 weekend league. I lost to a heavy top spin opponent 1-4 (small set). His balls came over at about 5-7 feet above the net and landed behind the service line, then jumped high above my head. These balls had no pace as he did not hit but mostly armed the balls. I had to stand 6-10 feet behind the baseline and hit top spin forehand drives or backhand slices. I currently use an eastern forehand and found it very difficult to deal with these heavy top spin balls. So I lost most of my points due to unforced errors.
I thought of a few solutions:
1: Go to the net either with S&V or chip and charge.
2: Drop shot to his backhand and follow by either a lob or a passing shot.
3: Change to a semi-western forehand and rally with him. (but currently his consistance is better than mine)

What are your thoughts on this? Thanks.

It's hard to tell exactly what to do since I haven't actually seen you or your opponent. However, when I play a heavy topspinner, generally they have a fairly extreme grip, getting close to a western or beyond. Extreme "grippers' hate low, backspun balls. Try hitting low, backspin balls to him and keep it up. Of course, throw in a few topspin shots to mix it up but give him a steady pace of cut shots. It'll drive him crazy.

 

[Power Player]

I use a Western and I don't mind the slices honestly. Sometimes a nice topspin shot can kick at me fast and give me way more problems.

So when I play I constantly remind myself to attack the ball whenever possible.

 

[FH2FH]

Might seem obvious, but don't hit the ball back to him. Also... the more rythym and pace you give this player the less they have to do & easier their job will be.

Your options:
A) come to net - you have lots of time and can create better angles/finish points
B) change pace/spins each shot - throw off his timing
C) bring HIM to net - dink/drop shot him to death and put away the sitter

If these don't work he's a good counterpuncher or you lack the skills to utilize the tactics. Sounds like he could make a good practice partner for a while...

Oh... and followup your drop shots/dinks by coming inside the baseline yourself!

 

[mikeler]

I use a Western and I don't mind the slices honestly. Sometimes a nice topspin shot can kick at me fast and give me way more problems.

So when I play I constantly remind myself to attack the ball whenever possible.

I hit with heavy topspin and I don't mind a slice hit to me unless it is extremely low and deep.

 

[drummerdan]

I hit with heavy topspin and I don't mind a slice hit to me unless it is extremely low and deep.

Bingo! That's what I'm talking about. Develop that low, deep slice and it will serve you well. It has me for many years.

Generally speaking, find out what your opponent doesn't like to hit and make him do it over and over.

 

[mikeler]

Bingo! That's what I'm talking about. Develop that low, deep slice and it will serve you well. It has me for many years.

Generally speaking, find out what your opponent doesn't like to hit and make him do it over and over.

This is difficult to do against an opponent giving you little pace and a lot of topspin especially if you are getting stretched on the shot. My high school nemesis hit with heavy topspin, so I modified my game to give him a taste of his own medicine and I became a heavy topspinner. That is my recommendation. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

 

[Katlion]

take every ball on the rise. right off the hop..

 

[mikeler]

take every ball on the rise. right off the hop..

Yep. I refuse to let people back me up.

 

[RoddickAce]

I assume you're overhitting and trying to hit the cover off the ball. Until you get the timing right to do that, you might wanna consider using a temporary solution of shortening up your backswing and taking the ball on the rise, Agassi style.

 

[skiracer55]

What he said...

Because you felt the balls "had no pace", I'm guessing that you might be confusing the "heavy top spin balls" with the high "moon balls" (with jumps high after landing because of gravity).

A true heavy top spin ball that clears the net by a large margin (high trajectory) and lands deep is a very penetrating shot that's hit with lots of pace. Think about Nadal. If your opponent is indeed capable of hitting such shots, it would probably take a lot more than just "a few solutions" to beat it. You'd have to develop equally strong ground strokes as well as overall improved game (timing, control of the point etc). I highly doubt players in the 3.5 league can actually produce these shots.

If it's a "moon ball" thats "mostly armed" with "no pace", you'd have so many options. You can move in and take the ball on the rise. Or you can come to the net and try to kill the ball with a swing volley or overhead (since the ball has no pace, it should be floating over the net giving you plenty of time).

Most importantly, you should tweak your game to give him a hard time moon balling you. Keep your shots nice and deep to pin HIM back, and move him around the court with angles. The further he's from the baseline, the more unbalanced you make him, the harder it is for him to successfully moon ball you without error or setthing himself up to be smashed.

Remember against a moon baller the last thing you want to do is hitting the same shot again and again into his comfort zone, so that he can easily moonball you while barely having to move, saving lots of energy and increasing your chance of error from over hitting and/or frustration.

...this is the most comprehensive approach as opposed to a point solution like "take the ball early" or "hit a drop shot"...which will work on a given point, but may not have enough mileage to win the match. What toptalent is telling you is an anti-moonballer variant of the general tactic of "Give the guy what he doesn't like so he can't do what he wants to." At the ATP level, Federer or any of the big boys can hit hard, hit angles, come to net, and yes, even moonball if they have to. At the 3.5 level, it's pretty much a truism that a moonballer is a moonballer is a moonballer. Meaning, if you follow the general strategies that toptalent has described, you're probably going to have success because the Big Moonballer probably isn't going to pull out his B game and become a serve and volley wonder.

There is a kind of subtle corollary to what toptalent is telling you, and here it is. toptalent is telling you how to conteract a 3.5 moonballer with your own current not-inconsiderable arsenal of 3.5 ground strokes. Dealing with any tennis groundstroke problem is not always solved by coming up with a different ground stroke response! When a moonballer...or anyone...gets you into one of those rally ball situations where you suddently feel like a deer in the headlights, ask yourself where the problem started. The two most important strokes in the game, in this order, are the serve and return. If you have a dependable forcing serve, you're going to start off dictating the point, which puts Mr. Moonballer off balance and scrambling and less likely to get you into a death-by-moonball experience. Same thing with the return. Moonballers tend to be great with waist high and above balls, but they usually don't like low, sliced shots. So chip a few returns low at his feet and see how he likes that.

To further the discussion of the serve and return as areas to focus on, they are not just areas to focus on at your current level, they are, I believe the keys to moving up in class...say to 4.0 or above. For example, to skip all the way up to the 5.0 level, the first sentence of the player description reads "You have good shot anticipation and frequently have an outstanding shot or attribute around which a game may be structured." And what better "outstanding shot" could you have than a 120 mph first serve? Or even, if you're talking about the 3.5 level, a 100 mph serve? At the 3.5 level, IMHO, if you suddenly develop a 100 mph serve, you ain't gonna have too many problems with moonballers because you aren't gonna see a whole lot of returns...and you won't be a 3.5 for long, either. What I'm talking about is a variant on the old adage we used to trot out when I was teaching skiing and somebody asked "How do you stop skidding?" Answer: "Don't start! Carve your turns from the initiation and you'll never have a skidding problem." Same deal here: One of the surest ways to counteract a moonballer is put in a heavy serve and don't let him start...

 

[prattle128]

a death-by-moonball experience.

omg i laughed for about 20 seconds at that

 

[delphi17]

how many people do you know at 3.5 can serve 120mph?
Thats some crazy speed..

 

[drnantu]

how many people do you know at 3.5 can serve 120mph?
Thats some crazy speed..

Yes, 120mph is extremely fast at 3.5. Even 80-90 mph first serve can get a lot of aces at that level.

 

[Josherer]

Yep. I refuse to let people back me up.

^^^^^ Good work

 

[Frank Silbermann]

I find it curious that so many people are advising a 3.5 player to take the ball on the rise. I tend to think of reliable rising-ball play as being a 5.5 level skill.

 

[mikeler]

I find it curious that so many people are advising a 3.5 player to take the ball on the rise. I tend to think of reliable rising-ball play as being a 5.5 level skill.

I'm probably in the minority here but I love moonballers and pushers. The reason is that I'm usually in control of the points. I decide when the points will end and I'm not getting pushed around the court by my opponent. If I can't get up and take the moonball early which is my preference, I'll moonball back. If I hit a very good moonball, then I'm coming up to the net to put pressure on my opponent.

 

[charliefedererer]

How to beat a heavy top spin opponent?

Just duplicate Federer's strategy and execution in the Madrid Open.

 

[get it in]

The OP was talking about a 3.5 level tournament. There are a lot of things a 3.5 cannot do and that's why they are at that level. Myself included. I'm guessing the ball wasn't so much heavy topspin like the pros but more of a low moonball that has little pace and drops in the court. Some posters talked about a 120MPH serve. Wow. I haven't seen very many 3.5's serve quite that fast. 90-100MPH will more than get the job done at 3.5. Especially if you can place it to their backhand side.

I like the suggestion of changing pace and varying your shots such as the slice, drop shot or even short ball to draw the opponent into the net. If they are a true 3.5 there HAS to be a weakness you can capitalize on. It's usually the backhand side or having to run side to side to get their shots. Hitting on the rise is not that easy for a 3.5 player. Well, not easy to consistently do at least. I would try drawing them to the net and seeing how their backhand volleys were. Many of them have trouble with high backhand volleys.

 

[skiracer55]

Yep, agreed....

Yes, 120mph is extremely fast at 3.5. Even 80-90 mph first serve can get a lot of aces at that level.

...and at a 3.5 level, most players will have problems with an 80 mph. serve. All I was really saying in my post was "Sometimes the way to deal with a moonballer is not necessarily by coming up with a counter-groundstroke technique." An improved serve...and that could be consistency, placement, spin, or speed...is one way to prevent a Moonball King from getting in the saddle and riding you around the court like a Shetland Pony.

However, note what else I said in my post, which is that the serve and return are the #1 and 2 most important strokes, in that order, at whatever level. It's been my observation that a lot of players spend most of their time working on groundstrokes, maybe 10% of the time working on volleys, and maybe a total of 2% working on serves, overheads, and returns...and most of that is hitting 5 (maybe) warmup serves before a match.

The moral is, the most bang for your buck, at any level, could come from jacking up your serve, and doing so can make life easier at your current level and provide an easier transition to the next level, if your NTRP rating gets upped. Let's say you are a 3.5, and you spend the summer amping up your serve to the 4.0/4.5 level, and you get moved up to 4.0. Because you've probably got a serve that's at least as good as your new competition, you're probably going to fit right in and be competitive from the get-go, as opposed to being a newbie and getting beaten like a rug until you get up to speed...

 

[get it in]

^^^ Good point. A decent serve can cover up a few deficiencies. Not enough 3.5 players work on their serve (speed and placement).

Edit: especially their second serve.

 

[skiracer55]

I dunno...

I find it curious that so many people are advising a 3.5 player to take the ball on the rise. I tend to think of reliable rising-ball play as being a 5.5 level skill.

...if I would peg it as high as 5.5, but I would agree that it's probably not typical of a 3.5 level. However, there's no absolute reason why a 3.5 (or anybody) can't hit on the rise. I have a whole other thread on some conceptual/outside the box drill ideas that have worked for me over here under the title "Tennis is Not an Arm Sport...It's a Leg Sport":

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=261292

So, thinking about what I said in this thread, the skill of hitting on the rise really depends on three things:

- The ability to hit a clean, consistent stroke with a compact backswing.

- The ability to move to get in position to hit on the rise, where hitting a ball on the rise can either be offensive or defensive. If I'm ahead of my opponent, I can move aggressively into the ball to take it on the rise, but if I get caught in a defensive position (for example, I like to hug the baseline, and sometimes I get caught with a deep, heavy ball to the baseline), I can also hit on the rise, pretty much like a half-volley. In fact, a half-volley, which is a stroke everybody ought to own as quickly as possible, is an avenue to learning what it feels like to hit on the rise.

- Good hand/eye coordination.

The idea I'm kind of proposing here is sort of a general concept of the two ways you can approach either competing successfully at a given NTRP level or moving up to the next level:

- You can figure out what the current or overall problem is and try to be better, where just a little bit better usually works, than the competition. For example, let's say that a lot of 3.5 points end up in baseline rallies and you're getting pasted because everything you hit is short. The obvious solution is to work on getting better length, and there's a whole lot of ways to do that which I won't get into now...details available on request.

- You can come up with some skills not normally found at your current level, and maybe don't even exist until two levels up, and distance yourself from the competition and make your entry to the next level easier and more profitable. Such as, but not limited to, a better serve...a much better serve...or the ability to hit on the rise.

So, yeah, I would agree that the ability to hit on the rise is not characteristic of most 3.5s, but I don't think it's outside the realm of anybody to develop this skill at any level. And hitting on the rise has lots of benefits. It's a great defensive move against a moonballer, but in offensive mode, it can impart heavy pace/spin on the ball without a lot of heavy muscular effort, and it can definitely take time away from your opponent.

I would say, however, that of the three factors I talked about above, the biggest prerequisite is...you guessed it!...the ability to move really well on a tennis court. So that's the lecture for today. If you want to compete better wherever you currently are, and if you seriously want to move up the skill ladder, first, be a better athlete. Learn to move faster, with greater agility, with better anticipation, and a whole lot of other things will automatically fall into place....

 

[sheets]

An option not discussed so far is find his weaker side and just direct everything there. Approach shots, groundies, everything. I'm going to assume it his backhand since that most common weaker side. it'll force him to open up the court or go for more, run around his backhand.
It's a basic strategy but it could wreak havoc on him. Don't forgot the dropshot. Also, on crucial points switch it up and go cross court. It will force him out of his comfort zone.
Just my two cents.

 

[NLBwell]

Skiracer - great points about the serve and return. I don't understand why so many people spend so much time practicing groundstrokes. I see guys hitting topspin groundstrokes waist or chest high for hours and I think how they may hit no more than 1 or 2 of those in an entire match against me. You can't use them unless your opponent cooperates. I parlayed a big serve and excellent serve return (and pretty good dropshots) into being competitive at the open level with inconsistent (though powerful) groundstrokes and mediocre volleys . With a big serve and serve return you can win most points by hitting no more than one or two shots. Practice your serve and then practice your serve a lot more.

The guys who often do well against this type of game are often the moonball-types, though. They move quickly, absorb the pace of the shot and dump it back in the court. It is here that an ability to hit volleys and overheads comes in. You have to be able to put away the floaters or they will just keep coming back. When teaching 3.5 level people I constantly made them work on overheads and volleys. Against a moonballer, if you have somewhat decent volleys and an overhead you are confident in come into the net. As others have said, just don't ever give them a ball that is in their comfort zone -- chip, dropshot, hard shots, mix it up -- and then look to come in to take advantage of those floating balls.

 

[drnantu]

The moral is, the most bang for your buck, at any level, could come from jacking up your serve, and doing so can make life easier at your current level and provide an easier transition to the next level, if your NTRP rating gets upped.

Very good point.

 

[get it in]

The great thing about the serve is that you can practice it on your own without a partner. Buy a 50 ball hopper and hit for about 20-30 minutes a day two or three times a week. More if you have the time. Work on placement first into the corners. A body serve doesn't do a lot of good if it's only 50-60mph. One could sidestep those pretty easily. I would suggest hiring a private coach to get the fundamentals down and then practice on your own after that. A good serve has a lot of bang for your buck because you can get a lot of free points that way, especially at the 3.5 level. Less so as you move up.

 

[smoothtennis]

omg i laughed for about 20 seconds at that

Yeah - I admit, I did a LMAO double take on that one - almost choked here. :mrgreen:

"Death-By-Moonball Experience" - LMAO!

PS. I experienced this very thing in a most brutal fashion when I was a brand new player. I thought I was in quick sand.

 

[smoothtennis]

SkiRacer

As I moved up in skill over the years, I learned over time a very heavily top-spinned penetrating explosive type moonball.

When I get a dead moonball from some guys, I peronally can't resist the temptation to ante up the moonball play, and send back that heavy topsin moonball with semi-moderate pace. It typically will explode up off the court like a kicker, and will ferret out bad footwork and timing on the other guy unless he can do it himself.

It can be a great counter to the hacker type moonballer, who like to hit the moonball off a normal groundie, or even an aggressive topsin groundie. They just let it bounce off the stringbed.

With the aggressive heavy spin moonball (like a half topspin lob) -they can't stand there so easily because of the post-bounce travel and action on that ball. They have to really move those feet, and hit it at the right time (small window of opportunity here).

What I found also, if anyone considers this play - is that it has to be practiced, and it not intuitive at first. It is a bit of work, and anticipation and good racket prep. But can be pretty darn fun.