How to beat a pusher

[jdubbs]

ok, it's been covered a few times, but since I'm fresh from my match last night, I'll offer some advice on how to beat a pusher.

Show up for my singles ladder match (a supposed mix of 4.0 and 4.5 players) to see the guy I'm playing is early 50's with a huge racket (looked about 110 inches). Right away, I know he's likely a junkballer and or pusher.

In warm-up, he hits with decent pace and gets everything back. Once we start playing, though it's huge moonballs on the forehand side, slices on the backhand side. He gets 99% of his slice first serves in. I try to move him around and he lobs the ball 20 feet high to give him a chance to get back in the point. How the hell do you beat this? I'm down 4-1 and he's broken me twice, and he eventually takes the first set 6-4.

Midway through the second, I'm up 3-2 and finally notice and take advantage of his slice backhand, which isn't a moonball, but rather short, often landing at around the service line. So I hit a hard topspin shot to his backhand, come in, and volley the ball away. I literally do this on 99% of the points from then on out, win the second set easily, and take the third set tiebreak 10-1.

in short: Move in to the net on pushers, get ready to hit a lot of overheads, and bring them to the net when possible, their creampuff shots are easy for you to pass them on.

I've now played 2 pushers in 2 weeks, lost the first set, before employing this strategy. Hopefully won't take me so long to wake up next time. Try this right away and see what happens.

 

[mikeler]

The bolded part sums it up in a nutshell.

 

[Djokovicfan4life]

You didn't highlight anything.

 

[LeeD]

Works if you're better than the pusher, but there are plenty of pushers who are better than us.

 

[ahuimanu]

Modern footwork to beat a pusher

Just watched this...might find it interesting

http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/how-to-beat-a-pusher-with-modern-tennis-footwork/

ok, it's been covered a few times, but since I'm fresh from my match last night, I'll offer some advice on how to beat a pusher.

Show up for my singles ladder match (a supposed mix of 4.0 and 4.5 players) to see the guy I'm playing is early 50's with a huge racket (looked about 110 inches). Right away, I know he's likely a junkballer and or pusher.

In warm-up, he hits with decent pace and gets everything back. Once we start playing, though it's huge moonballs on the forehand side, slices on the backhand side. He gets 99% of his slice first serves in. I try to move him around and he lobs the ball 20 feet high to give him a chance to get back in the point. How the hell do you beat this? I'm down 4-1 and he's broken me twice, and he eventually takes the first set 6-4.

Midway through the second, I'm up 3-2 and finally notice and take advantage of his slice backhand, which isn't a moonball, but rather short, often landing at around the service line. So I hit a hard topspin shot to his backhand, come in, and volley the ball away. I literally do this on 99% of the points from then on out, win the second set easily, and take the third set tiebreak 10-1.

in short: Move in to the net on pushers, get ready to hit a lot of overheads, and bring them to the net when possible, their creampuff shots are easy for you to pass them on.

I've now played 2 pushers in 2 weeks, lost the first set, before employing this strategy. Hopefully won't take me so long to wake up next time. Try this right away and see what happens.

 

[jdubbs]

You didn't highlight anything.

the bolded part is highlighted...right?

 

[user92626]

What if you don't have a good net game?

For me I beat pushers and soft hitters by hitting relentless good groundstrokes. Moving around the baseline seems a lot easier than running forward to the net where you also have to adjust your spin and pace.

 

[jdubbs]

What if you don't have a good net game?

For me I beat pushers and soft hitters by hitting relentless good groundstrokes. Moving around the baseline seems a lot easier than running forward to the net where you also have to adjust your spin and pace.

I have very good groundstrokes, but he just used my pace against me.
Hit me with moonballs that landed a foot inside the baseline, underspin that took away my power. Just sat back and waiting for me to make UE's, which I did. I'm usually fine from the baseline, but not against this guy. Looking for a "floater" to put away on a volley is actually pretty easy, and my overheads are pretty good, though he would make me hit 2 or 3 each point sometimes.

We all get in those baseline pushing matches, and this is a way to end the point sooner, make the court smaller by cutting off angles and taking away his weapon. I won about 80% of my points at the net.

 

[Power Player]

You have to know that a pusher is giving you free time to setup for your shot. That is so nice compared to being pushed around everywhere and scrambling to get a ball you can set up for.

If you can setup, you can hit a winner or hit a shot that will make the pusher have to scramble and hit a weak response. As soon as you hit that shot, go to the net and put the point away. It is that easy. I think people hate pushers because they have bad footwork and do not set up properly before hitting the ball.

 

[r2473]

Works if you're better than the pusher, but there are plenty of pushers who are better than us.

Exactly.

People act like "pushers" are all the same. This is no more true than to say that all baseliners are mindless ball bashers that make "a million" unforced errors.

 

[maverick66]

I find slapping the ball to the corners as hard as I can works. Try it every time your opponent decides that keeping the ball in play is worth trying.

 

[jdubbs]

I find slapping the ball to the corners as hard as I can works. Try it every time your opponent decides that keeping the ball in play is worth trying.

it's hard when every ball is landing deep just inside the baseline to hit corners. When I hit his short shots, he would run to the corners and hit a huge moonball landing deep in the court. I made a ton of UE's in my frustration. Picking on his BH and volleying those short balls was the only thing that I could do.

Pushers are different, but this was one effective strategy I was able to deploy successfully against this one.

 

[Jonny S&V]

I throw a mix of junk and outright power at pushers that I play (no 3/4th shots), usually ending with me at the net one way or another. Drop-shots are your best friend.

 

[Larrysümmers]

I throw a mix of junk and outright power at pushers that I play (no 3/4th shots), usually ending with me at the net one way or another. Drop-shots are your best friend.

yeah pretty much same here when i play them. slice it deep to the corners. sometimes right up the gut.

 

[mightyrick]

Beating a good pusher requires a drop shot. If you don't have it, you're dead. Unless you're a good 4.5+.

Passing shots are the only way to beat a good pusher. A good, athletic pusher will run down every baseline ball.

Bring the pusher from the baseline to net with a drop shot to the opposing side of the court. When the pusher comes forward, stay back. The pusher will either try to hit a ball at your feet or lob it.

Any lob from that position will be an easy overhead or volley. Any attempt to hit at your feet is easy pickings for a sitting duck passing shot.

After you do that a few times, the pusher will start to stand/cheat inside the baseline... camping in no-mans land. Once they do that, they're toast. Now you can switch back to hitting hard groundies right at them. After you do that a few times, they'll start standing on the baseline again. Now use the drop-shot tactic.

It really isn't hard. But if you don't have a drop-shot, you're going to have a very difficult time.

 

[user92626]

It seems like we all have a different defintion of a pusher.

To me, he's someone who hits soft, high percentage, runs down & returns as many shots as possible, seemly plays low risk game, wait for his oppon's ue's to win.

What's your definition?

 

[Jonny S&V]

It seems like we all have a different defintion of a pusher.

To me, he's someone who hits soft, high percentage, runs down & returns as many shots as possible, seemly plays low risk game, wait for his oppon's ue's to win.

What's your definition?

All of that, plus usually a some sort of anomaly in his game that makes it seem ugly (mechanical, technically wrong, etc).

 

[pushing_wins]

out grind them

i was pushing at at tornament once.

we were both hitting continental grip lob balls at 10mph right down the middle. every point lasted 10 mins. i was prepared to play a 12hr match.

we were hitting so slow. we were able to trash talk to each other during the point.

we both got defaulted from the toruney in the end. the members were complaining about taking up their court time.

 

[jdubbs]

This may sound silly and/or petty, but I was embarrassed to play him in front of my peers at my club. This was on a "show court" so there were plenty of guys watching.
I love watching pro tennis and trying to duplicate what they do playing 4.5+ guys...even if I lose, we look really good out there and are hitting the ball all out. I'm getting a good workout and having fun at the same time.

To have those same guys watching me play a pusher was just embarrassing...even more so when I was losing and getting frustrated. I may join a 4.5 league (even though I'm really more of a solid 4.0) just to play better players. Don't really care about losing at that level, but this is supposed to be the highest ranked singles ladder at the club and 50% of these guys are just junkballer/pushers. Not really interested in playing that kind of tennis. And now I'm beating most of them so it's not like I need the practice anymore.

 

[mightyrick]

It seems like we all have a different defintion of a pusher.

To me, he's someone who hits soft, high percentage, runs down & returns as many shots as possible, seemly plays low risk game, wait for his oppon's ue's to win.

What's your definition?

To me, a pusher is someone who has only two weapons: 1) They are very fast, 2) They always can get the ball back (no matter how ugly) as long as their contact point is on either side of their body.

Other than that, no weapons at all.

 

[Bender]

out grind them

i was pushing at at tornament once.

we were both hitting continental grip lob balls at 10mph right down the middle. every point lasted 10 mins. i was prepared to play a 12hr match.

we were hitting so slow. we were able to trash talk to each other during the point.

we both got defaulted from the toruney in the end. the members were complaining about taking up their court time.

this is the greatest post of all time

 

[user92626]

I have very good groundstrokes, but he just used my pace against me.
Hit me with moonballs that landed a foot inside the baseline, underspin that took away my power. Just sat back and waiting for me to make UE's, which I did. I'm usually fine from the baseline, but not against this guy. Looking for a "floater" to put away on a volley is actually pretty easy, and my overheads are pretty good, though he would make me hit 2 or 3 each point sometimes.

We all get in those baseline pushing matches, and this is a way to end the point sooner, make the court smaller by cutting off angles and taking away his weapon. I won about 80% of my points at the net.

Don't take this wrong, but maybe your groundstrokes aren't as good as you think they are. A nice thing about tennis is that it's a nearly perfect sport in design in term of techniques/skills, athleticism, etc. What I mean is it's not possible for a lower level play to somehow improvise, take advantage of the other player's higher skill and turn it around and win.

Frankly, you can't use the pace of a higher quality shot to somehow beat the shot. Advanced players would tell you that it takes anticipation, proper setup, timing, knowledge of shot redirection to handle a great shot, none of which is possessed by someone defined as pusher. Where would tennis be if great shots can be dealt by half baked skills? If you know what I mean...

 

[Delano]

I have a slightly more restrictive definition of "pusher." It includes what you said, but there's one more critical feature - a pusher has no offensive weapons (other than maybe a lob). In other words, you can push back against a pusher all afternoon, and he will never hit a winner. You can take your time and wait for just the right moment.

There's a much harder type of player who softballs and pushes to take you out of your rhythm, but will attack when the moment is right. So if you try to push back against this "pusher", you will suddenly find yourself on the run. This can lead to a very difficult match, as you have no real pace to work with, yet you find you need pace to avoid sending softballs that get punished.

I'm a little skeptical about the existence of pushers much beyond the 3.5 level, but that's mainly because of my narrow definition. A player who has the tools to win points really isn't a pusher, even if he holds off on using them.

It seems like we all have a different defintion of a pusher.

To me, he's someone who hits soft, high percentage, runs down & returns as many shots as possible, seemly plays low risk game, wait for his oppon's ue's to win.

What's your definition?

 

[jdubbs]

Don't take this wrong, but maybe your groundstrokes aren't as good as you think they are. A nice thing about tennis is that it's a nearly perfect sport in design in term of techniques/skills, athleticism, etc. What I mean is it's not possible for a lower level play to somehow improvise, take advantage of the other player's higher skill and turn it around and win.

Frankly, you can't use the pace of a higher quality shot to somehow beat the shot. Advanced players would tell you that it takes anticipation, proper setup, timing, knowledge of shot redirection to handle a great shot, none of which is possessed by someone defined as pusher. Where would tennis be if great shots can be dealt by half baked skills? If you know what I mean...

I disagree, in fact, you CAN beat a superior, more skilled player by pushing.

Fabrice Santoro was probably the greatest pro pusher of all time. It doesn't mean he was unskilled, but he realized he didn't have the talent to compete with the power players of his generation

You wouldn't rank Santoro ahead of say, Federer, but Santoro beat Federer twice, and he beat Sampras and Agassi 3 times each, Djokovic once.

Watch how he neutralizes and beats Djokovic here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoZ-uRpwfcM

Classic pushing strategy, and yeah, this looked a lot like my match last night, albeit these guys play at a much higher level, obviously.

 

[user92626]

I have a slightly more restrictive definition of "pusher." It includes what you said, but there's one more critical feature - a pusher has no offensive weapons (other than maybe a lob). In other words, you can push back against a pusher all afternoon, and he will never hit a winner. You can take your time and wait for just the right moment.

Well, that's a bit arbitrary though. A pusher could say his weapons are his superior anticipation of opponent shots, ability to neutralize pacey, spinny shots, and placement -- a soft shot to an empty spot, unreachable by opponent is surely a winner, no?



That's my point about broadly defining a pusher as someone who hits soft and low risk by any way necessary and wait for his opponent's UEs. From that definition if you know how to hit groundstrokes commandingly, a pusher's shots are quite easy to beat, and pusher will inevitably lose because he can't match the energy and skills, ie half baked skills vs sound skills.

 

[LeeD]

Yeah, watching Santoro play, he's just waiting around for his opponent to push the issue, then he hits a great counterattacking forcing pass every time.
He CHOOSES to play the push, slice, underspin, waiting game, waiting and daring his opponent to come up with a great approach, something most don't have since the modern players are mostly baseliners.
And hitting all those slices, he's expending much less energy than his topspin only counterparts, so his energy gets saved for the times he needs the great passing shot.
Just another way to solve the great puzzle, how to win.

 

[Jonny S&V]

I disagree, in fact, you CAN beat a superior, more skilled player by pushing.

Fabrice Santoro was probably the greatest pro pusher of all time. It doesn't mean he was unskilled, but he realized he didn't have the talent to compete with the power players of his generation

You wouldn't rank Santoro ahead of say, Federer, but Santoro beat Federer twice, and he beat Sampras and Agassi 3 times each, Djokovic once.

Watch how he neutralizes and beats Djokovic here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoZ-uRpwfcM

Classic pushing strategy, and yeah, this looked a lot like my match last night, albeit these guys play at a much higher level, obviously.

You can consider this pro-level pushing if you wish, but Santoro is widely accepted as not a pusher in the least but a junk-baller. You can't drop-shot Santoro and automatically expect to win the point (especially considering that Santoro volleys better than most with one hand these days). If Santoro is a pusher to you, I think you were playing a counter-puncher and not a pusher.

Also, to say that Santoro didn't have talent is ludicrous. He hit shots that even Federer can't do, and his shotmaking was what drew many to watch him.

In short, DEFINITELY not a pusher.

 

[TheBoom]

Works if you're better than the pusher, but there are plenty of pushers who are better than us.

In a nutshell

 

[mightyrick]

YIf Santoro is a pusher to you, I think you were playing a counter-puncher and not a pusher.

Also, to say that Santoro didn't have talent is ludicrous. He hit shots that even Federer can't do, and his shotmaking was what drew many to watch him.

In short, DEFINITELY not a pusher.

Thank you for saying this. I'm tired of hearing people say Santoro was a "pusher". Ridiculous. Let's be clear. Santoro would probably destroy anyone on this board 6-0, 6-0, 6-0. He probably could play with only his non-dominant hand and beat anyone on this board 6-2, 6-2, 6-2.

Santoro wasn't a touring hack. He probably beat more number one ranked players than any other player in history. He was top 20. The guy played for like 20 years -- competitively -- into his 30s. They guy had been ranked every year since *1988* through last year. The guy was ranked in the top 100 for 13 years.

Enough of this pusher stuff in the pros. There are no pushers in the pros. Pushers are out on the city park courts or in local clubs.

And I'll even go further to say that Santoro was more of an all-court player than 75% (or more) of the ranked people on tour.

Jeezus... if Santoro was a pusher, then I wish I was half the pusher he was. I'd destroy everyone I ever played.

 

[bhupaes]

I guess there is a tendency to call anyone whose strategy is not based on raw power a pusher...

 

[user92626]

I guess there is a tendency to call anyone whose strategy is not based on raw power a pusher...

It's easier than to admit they out maneuver, out play you, especially when you have bigger muscles. hehe

 

[LeeD]

Ask DelPorto, Soderling, or Roddick whether Santoro is a pusher or not. You'd get three affirmatives.
At his level, solid 7.0 touring pro, he could hit hard fast passing shots at will, but chooses instead to take the mindset of ...."can you beat me if I give you this puffball?".... that's a PUSHER's mindset, albeit a 7.0 level pusher.
You have to question his PEERS whether he pushes or not. Most touring pros would say YES, he's a pusher, but a good one.

 

[danno123]

Here's a great video of a pusher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8SZynE4N1w

dozu posted it a while ago and I saved it to my favorites because it's so entertaining to watch. The problem is that the guy playing against the pusher has no tools to end the point. He can't hit an aggressive volley and can't do anything with an overhead except hit it weakly down the middle. I would actually like to play the shirtless guy. Heck, he might even beat me. I pay almost $9/hr for a ball machine to throw balls at me so why wouldn't I like to play a guy who throws balls back at me for free?

 

[arche3]

Here's a great video of a pusher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8SZynE4N1w

dozu posted it a while ago and I saved it to my favorites because it's so entertaining to watch. The problem is that the guy playing against the pusher has no tools to end the point. He can't hit an aggressive volley and can't do anything with an overhead except hit it weakly down the middle. I would actually like to play the shirtless guy. Heck, he might even beat me. I pay almost $9/hr for a ball machine to throw balls at me so why wouldn't I like to play a guy who throws balls back at me for free?

shirtless might be just toying with the guy though. and can actually hit a real ball. but if he can only play that game I figured out how to beat those types of players long ago. I just run them ragged. like a puppet.

 

[danno123]

shirtless might be just toying with the guy though. and can actually hit a real ball. but if he can only play that game I figured out how to beat those types of players long ago. I just run them ragged. like a puppet.

That's part of the problem with the video - the guy with the shirt can't or won't hit angles. But even if he did, watch pusher's "footwork" closely. He hits the ball so slowly that on most points he hits a lob and literally walks back to the center of the court to get into position before his opponent hits the ball. He's pretty quick, too. Running him around from the baseline probably wouldn't work well because he'll always be in position by the time you hit your shot. I think a better tactic would be to get closer to the net to take away shirtless guy's recovery time.

 

[arche3]

That's part of the problem with the video - the guy with the shirt can't or won't hit angles. But even if he did, watch pusher's "footwork" closely. He hits the ball so slowly that on most points he hits a lob and literally walks back to the center of the court to get into position before his opponent hits the ball. He's pretty quick, too. Running him around from the baseline probably wouldn't work well because he'll always be in position by the time you hit your shot. I think a better tactic would be to get closer to the net to take away shirtless guy's recovery time.

The whole point is to work angles and depth so the guy is running around like a chicken. Left to right front to back. After a few shots you get an opening and you can hit the angle that no one can get to by just stepping into the short ball you will get. Every stroke you gain more time on him. I look at it like practice. Its routine to dismantle true pushers for me. I passed that hurdle a long time ago. A counter puncher is a different story as they can actually go on the offence when needed.

 

[jdubbs]

Its tough, because when shirt rushes the net, shirtless hits a nice lob landing 2 feet from the baseline.

But agree, you've really got to angle the ball a lot more. I've developed a nasty cross court forehand with a Nadal-like finish that either wins me the point outright or helps me set up for the next shot well.

The war against pushers continues.

 

[pushing_wins]

anyone you lose to is a pusher

 

[Mick]

i think the comments made by djokovic and murray on how to play against world class players also apply to pushers. they said to be successful, you've got to move them away from their comfort zones and force them to do whatever they don't like to do.

 

[tennismonkey]

i play a counterpuncher style of game. sometimes i realize it can look like pushing but i'm able to go on the offensive and have no qualms about coming to net to end points. i can often hit harder than the baseline bashers but i try to pick my moments.

baseline bashers usually look fantastic. especially in warmups they can really hit some heavy balls deep and consistently. once the match starts though - consistency always drops. and then they learn that unless you really crush the ball (low percentage shot again) - it's really really hard to hit winners without hitting 2 or 3 quality shots to set it up. and a lot of these guys don't even have a rudimentary net game and overheads to shorten these points. so they wind up in a way conceding any advantage they gained by crushing groundstrokes that i have to scramble around the court blocking back.

 

[jdubbs]

i play a counterpuncher style of game. sometimes i realize it can look like pushing but i'm able to go on the offensive and have no qualms about coming to net to end points. i can often hit harder than the baseline bashers but i try to pick my moments.

baseline bashers usually look fantastic. especially in warmups they can really hit some heavy balls deep and consistently. once the match starts though - consistency always drops. and then they learn that unless you really crush the ball (low percentage shot again) - it's really really hard to hit winners without hitting 2 or 3 quality shots to set it up. and a lot of these guys don't even have a rudimentary net game and overheads to shorten these points. so they wind up in a way conceding any advantage they gained by crushing groundstrokes that i have to scramble around the court blocking back.

This will get you to a certain level, and I could probably make a comfortable living staying at 4.0 counterpunching/pushing. I've decided to play a "pro-style" game instead to progress to 4.5 and leave most of the pushers behind, because it pains me so much to play like that.

Sure, I'll miss shots now and then, but I've beat the last 4 pushers I've played, and I can hang with the 4.5's now and even win a match or two.

It all depends on what your goals are, age, level of fitness.

But I'll tell you this: it gives me a TON of satisfaction to beat pushers now, something about the arrogance of hitting a million soft shots to win a match really annoys me!

 

[mtommer]

You wouldn't rank Santoro ahead of say, Federer, but Santoro beat Federer twice, and he beat Sampras and Agassi 3 times each, Djokovic once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoZ-uRpwfcM[/url]

Classic pushing strategy, and yeah, this looked a lot like my match last night, albeit these guys play at a much higher level, obviously.

Go to the point starting at 5:53, the DTL winner at 7:03 and the winner setup starting at 7:20 (and there are plenty of other examples in that video). Santoro may very well have played a slower and more spin oriented style but he played for and executed many fine winners in his time. He is not a pusher IMO.

 

[cork_screw]

If it was all about moonballs, pushers would not be a problem. I don't know what type of pushers people here play but I've played some really good pushers and they do not moon ball. Once they moonball, you can hit some extreme top spin and direct it towards a courner of a court and slowly pull them off to one side then move them around and come into the net. Most pushers who I play neutralize all your power. They block the ball back, absorb all the pace and transfer it to slices or english shots, then they start to pull you side to side with slices and finish it off with a hook a shot out wide.

With all the slices, when you do come in they tend to hit lobs that usually tag 1 ft within the baseline. And too high for you to have a chance to smash. These are the pushers we have in california (San Diego) and they are accomplished at what they do. I've seen strong 4.5 players go down who can bring a 120 mph serve. There's pushers out here that make their living just hitting slices that are down at your ankles and skid and who spin the ball with all types of weird english then hit the high lob to a corner when you come in on the short balls and I don't mean sitters, more like ankle height balls that are spinning away from you just about a foot in the service box. If you try to push on a pusher, he'll just beat you at his game because he's more accomplished at it. If you try to drop shot a pusher, he'll find the angles really well. These guys are junkyard pushers and it's really tough to beat them unless you have a very good serve and can hold your games well. These are the pushers that I struggle with, but don't seem to be the ones really mentioned on FYB or the original post of the thread.

 

[mightyrick]

If it was all about moonballs, pushers would not be a problem. I don't know what type of pushers people here play but I've played some really good pushers and they do not moon ball. Once they moonball, you can hit some extreme top spin and direct it towards a courner of a court and slowly pull them off to one side then move them around and come into the net. Most pushers who I play neutralize all your power. They block the ball back, absorb all the pace and transfer it to slices or english shots, then they start to pull you side to side with slices and finish it off with a hook a shot out wide.

With all the slices, when you do come in they tend to hit lobs that usually tag 1 ft within the baseline. And too high for you to have a chance to smash. These are the pushers we have in california (San Diego) and they are accomplished at what they do. I've seen strong 4.5 players go down who can bring a 120 mph serve. There's pushers out here that make their living just hitting slices that are down at your ankles and skid and who spin the ball with all types of weird english then hit the high lob to a corner when you come in on the short balls and I don't mean sitters, more like ankle height balls that are spinning away from you just about a foot in the service box. If you try to push on a pusher, he'll just beat you at his game because he's more accomplished at it. If you try to drop shot a pusher, he'll find the angles really well. These guys are junkyard pushers and it's really tough to beat them unless you have a very good serve and can hold your games well. These are the pushers that I struggle with, but don't seem to be the ones really mentioned on FYB or the original post of the thread.

I think we all have different ideas of what "pusher" means. To some... a "pusher" is someone only only "gets the ball back" and runs his ass off chasing down balls until the opponent makes an unforced error. Well... that's only good enough for 2.5 to 3.0 probably... maybe 3.5 depending on the geography. This "pusher" isn't beating anyone at 4.0 level. Impossible.

To others... a "pusher" is someone who can beat opponents without strong, toppin forehand winners being the primary go-to shot. Santoro and others have proved that this strategy is possible all the way up to ATP Top 100 rankings. So by this definition... a pusher could make it to the pros. But these "pushers" usually have a much more complete, all-court game.

I wish we'd settle on what we mean here.

By my definition, I haven't lost to a "pusher" in quite awhile.

 

[LeeD]

Of course, a pusher has to be able to hit some passing shots, can make an ace on a serve once in a while, can hit short angles and DTL shots, but CHOOSES to slice or moonball right up the middle, DARING his opponent to try to WIN the point.
That's the definition of a pusher, someone who CAN hit big normal shots, but is smart enough to know it doesn't pay off for him, so he chooses to play patient, safe tennis, waiting for the other guy to make a mistake.
EVERYONE pushes sometimes, even JohanKriek.

 

[jdubbs]

If it was all about moonballs, pushers would not be a problem. I don't know what type of pushers people here play but I've played some really good pushers and they do not moon ball. Once they moonball, you can hit some extreme top spin and direct it towards a courner of a court and slowly pull them off to one side then move them around and come into the net. Most pushers who I play neutralize all your power. They block the ball back, absorb all the pace and transfer it to slices or english shots, then they start to pull you side to side with slices and finish it off with a hook a shot out wide.

With all the slices, when you do come in they tend to hit lobs that usually tag 1 ft within the baseline. And too high for you to have a chance to smash. These are the pushers we have in california (San Diego) and they are accomplished at what they do. I've seen strong 4.5 players go down who can bring a 120 mph serve. There's pushers out here that make their living just hitting slices that are down at your ankles and skid and who spin the ball with all types of weird english then hit the high lob to a corner when you come in on the short balls and I don't mean sitters, more like ankle height balls that are spinning away from you just about a foot in the service box. If you try to push on a pusher, he'll just beat you at his game because he's more accomplished at it. If you try to drop shot a pusher, he'll find the angles really well. These guys are junkyard pushers and it's really tough to beat them unless you have a very good serve and can hold your games well. These are the pushers that I struggle with, but don't seem to be the ones really mentioned on FYB or the original post of the thread.

Lets watch how Federer deals with a pusher:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2iMDmxuvRM

He's constantly coming to the net. Taking the ball on the rise, getting short replies and putting them away.

Watch the point starting at 2:40. Even though he shanks the last overhead, this is classic strategy for beating a pusher and looked very similar to the match I had the other day. Stay aggressive and learn how to hit a lot of overheads. It's very difficult for a pusher to constantly hit a perfect lob.

The very next point is the one really worth watching, though. Hard shot to the backhand, come in, and put away the volley. This works very well.

For those of us who aren't Federer, it's still instructive to watch the anti-pushing strategy perfectly executed.

 

[LeeD]

Beat any pusher?
Easy enough to strategize, hard to do on the court.
Just hit every one of your shots within 2' of the sidelines, 2' from his baseline, into the open court, and move forwards to just inside your service line to split step and await your putaway.
Can we do it?
Of course we can, once in a while, maybe a majority of the time when no pressured and playing an inferior opponent. Try that under pressure against a truly equal or better opponent, and lots of those shots go long or wide.

 

[user92626]

Lets watch how Federer deals with a pusher:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2iMDmxuvRM

He's constantly coming to the net. Taking the ball on the rise, getting short replies and putting them away.

In that clip the Santoro guy isn't playing anything that I would call a "pusher's game/style". He just hits with a slice FH and is consistent and good placement as any top pro. Fed is playing his usual game, and because Santoro's shot ain't Nadal's, Fed is able to come forward a lot more and finish the points early. That's all.

I suspect that because most recreational players don't know how to deal with different pace and shot height, they'll self-destruct by their own UEs and call opponents "pushers" for easy explanation.

If you play at various city parks like I do and don't mind playing against women, crafty veteran, old men as well as good players, you'll learn to hit efficient groundstrokes off of any type of shot.

 

[mightyrick]

Lets watch how Federer deals with a pusher:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2iMDmxuvRM

He's constantly coming to the net. Taking the ball on the rise, getting short replies and putting them away.

Watch the point starting at 2:40. Even though he shanks the last overhead, this is classic strategy for beating a pusher and looked very similar to the match I had the other day. Stay aggressive and learn how to hit a lot of overheads. It's very difficult for a pusher to constantly hit a perfect lob.

The very next point is the one really worth watching, though. Hard shot to the backhand, come in, and put away the volley. This works very well.

For those of us who aren't Federer, it's still instructive to watch the anti-pushing strategy perfectly executed.

Uh, this is prime Federer against a very old Santoro.

This is the better one. US Open 2005. Prime Federer against "just past his prime" Santoro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp05kCONoi4&playnext=1&list=PL0283F98989DF00AD

Straight set win by Federer (7-5,7-5,7-6), but Santoro beats any other player in the world that day. Federer barely won.

Santoro has beat Federer twice prior to that. TWICE. When you go through the list of players that have beaten a competitive Federer twice... that is a very short list. Santoro is on that list.

Honestly, Santoro might be the most amazing tennis player ever.

I know we aren't supposed to have Pro discussions here, so I'll stop. But I'll just end it with this...

I wonder -- if Santoro actually got completely serious about tennis from the beginning of his career -- if he would have been the best ever. It is very possible.

 

[DeShaun]

Beating a good pusher requires a drop shot. If you don't have it, you're dead. Unless you're a good 4.5+.

Passing shots are the only way to beat a good pusher. A good, athletic pusher will run down every baseline ball.

Bring the pusher from the baseline to net with a drop shot to the opposing side of the court. When the pusher comes forward, stay back. The pusher will either try to hit a ball at your feet or lob it.

Any lob from that position will be an easy overhead or volley. Any attempt to hit at your feet is easy pickings for a sitting duck passing shot.

After you do that a few times, the pusher will start to stand/cheat inside the baseline... camping in no-mans land. Once they do that, they're toast. Now you can switch back to hitting hard groundies right at them. After you do that a few times, they'll start standing on the baseline again. Now use the drop-shot tactic.

It really isn't hard. But if you don't have a drop-shot, you're going to have a very difficult time.

The "pusher" I regularly play would dink me to death if I hung back after feeding him a drop shot. He has EXCELLENT TOUCH AT NET. But maybe he's not so much a good pusher as a SPEEDY and FIT SCRAMBLER who CANNOT, it seems, HIT WITH PACE. He does not have any solid reliable groundies, but he has other skills. Foremost among which being GREAT MENTAL TOUGHNESS; but then, he has A NASTY SLICE BACKHAND. HE clearly FAVORS IT OVER HIS FOREHAND, and so, he actually RUNS AROUND the FOREHAND in order TO HIT that SLICE.

Because he's ALWAYS ADDING as MUCH JUNK as he possibly can TO HIS SLICE, it would NOT be terribly UNFAIR of me TO CALL HIM a one-armed HACKER. But again, if I were to drop-shot him and to stay back, he quickly would dink me to death. But man, he is SOME SCRAMBLER, and LIVES solely BY the HACK/SLICE BACKHAND of his. I would estimate him a 3.5 because his MATCH TOUGHNESS is ALMOST PEERLESS in my (albeit limited) experience.

I really like your advice, though. It's very well thought out and easy to follow. I will absolutely try it at some point; maybe not against him though--but again, whether or not he is properly labeled a pusher is an open question to my mind.