How to counter chip and charge?

[Ballinbob]

Hey all

Lost a tight 4.5 match against a good serve and volley player 7-6,6-3. The thing that bothered me most is on my second serve, he would take my kick serve on the rise, chip it low DTL, and come in off it. I was able to pass him sometimes but I always had to pull something spectacular off in order to do it. My second serve is always a kick serve to the backhand and I've never really considered it a weakness until maybe today.

What can I do to prevent this in the future? Is he just better than me perhaps? I know I can hold serve easier in the future against him if I can figure out how to counter this chip and charge tactic

Also, a little unrelated but I have to ask... Any tricks for returning a twist serve to the backhand? He had this serve that kicked out severely to my left on the ad side which put me out of position. I was able to take it on the rise sometimes but the timing to do that consistently is tough...didnt always work out for me

Thanks

 

[Larrysümmers]

maybe try to take something off of your serve since the chip is mostly redirecting your pace, then just try your best to be ready for it, try coming in after the serve>

as for the ROS, try stepping in and hitting it before its able to get too high on you.

its hard to beat someone like that, sounds like he has a lot of practice and knows what hes doing
good luck~

 

[LeeD]

Most chip and charge returners use a continental grip, so they don't hit with deep pace, but do hit severe underspin skidding returns.
Hit into their body.
Hit into his forehand side, it's still a slice with conti grip, not a groundie.
In the pros, you see lots of second serves to the forehand side, to keep the returner from T ing off on the 2hbh side.
Mix you second serves. You can't hit ALL twists, or you back will go out in a handful of years.
Throw in some slices into the body.

 

[newpball]

What can I do to prevent this in the future?

I'd say:

1. Make sure your kick serve is deep.
2. Make sure your kick serve has enough spin.
3. Make sure not every second serve is the same, you need variety to keep your opponents on their toes.
4. Try not to be too obvious what you are going to do. A good player will watch your toss and after a few games will know exactly what you are spinning to him.

 

[LeeD]

Oh, returning a higher than you kick serve.
Step in, you know that.
I use conti grip, so I don't overhit, but I chop it down, FAST swing, lots of backspin.
Smarter players would use a stronger grip, switching for each side, so they hit with more pace, and less spin.
To me, all it is is a high forehand or backhand volley. You step forwards, chop it DOWN, aiming for service line depth, then it's up to you to decide whether or not to continue forwards to play a volley.

 

[mikeler]

Go to the body and forehand on 2nd serves. See what he does when you change your tendency.

 

[Ballinbob]

Hmm this is all good advice. My kick to the backhand works against the majority of players that I play against and I never really thought to vary it much. That is good advice, wish I would have picked up on that today.

Lee: So instead of passing him right off the bat you're saying maybe make him hit some awkward volleys? Like hit right at him? I guess I was playing pretty low percentage tennis if I was trying to pass him immediately...

And yeah this was a fast indoor court, and while his chip wasnt that fast it stayed at my ankles and me being 6'3-6'4 makes it very hard to do much with it. He's a good player, props to him, he gave me no rhythm and didnt let me play my baseline game

 

[Ballinbob]

Yeah looking back at the match now and after reading all this advice is making me realize that I need more variety on my 2nd serve. I wish I had more confidence in my slice serve, I need to practice that and make it more consistent.

And Lee: the high backhand volley analogy makes sense, thanks. I was trying to do too much with my 2hbh return and trying to pass him DTL too much which rarely worked

 

[LeeD]

Yeah, practice hitting those ankle high skidders.
Forehand side, hit them with sidespin, as well as topspin, hitting the outside of the ball, for a dipping shot.
2hbh can be harder, but you see Nadal getting DOWN by bending his knees. Assuming your opponent isn't as low skid hitting as his opponent's, you should be able to handle those ankle high shots.
Lob deep CC for an alternative, to keep him from crowding the net, and when you get a swing, aim your pass right at his right hip pocket, as hard as you can.
That's what makes tennis so fun. Your options are unlimited, but you must be willing to give away a few points to set him up into a position your can handle.
Believe it or not, some guys actually drop shot a net player, then charge net themselves. Try it once, to see how your opponent reacts under YOUR pressure.

 

[boramiNYC]

agree 2nd serve variety is key. you need to practice slice to the fh along with kick to the bh at the least. try not to toss behind your head which tends to only produce kick. instead keep the toss right above your chin to be able to hit either kick or slice that has good margin for safety for 2nd serve. no need to go for the lines here.

 

[Lovely_Bone]

Yeah looking back at the match now and after reading all this advice is making me realize that I need more variety on my 2nd serve. I wish I had more confidence in my slice serve, I need to practice that and make it more consistent.

And Lee: the high backhand volley analogy makes sense, thanks. I was trying to do too much with my 2hbh return and trying to pass him DTL too much which rarely worked

In the future, you may want to start hitting slice second serves to a player like that. If you don't have a totally consistent slice down, PRACTICE it! Also, like other posters were saying, make him hit awkward volleys. I do this by either hitting right at them with some pace, or if I have enough time I will just brush straight up on the ball with as much top spin as I possibly can generate because in this situation it doesn't have to go deep, in fact, if its dropping short and fast without much pace it's a VERY difficult shot to volley off of. I've beaten very good volleyers with those tactics. In tournaments I usually play doubles, so that's how I learned to do these things, and they work very well.

 

[corbind]

Wow that opponent sounds...evil. Imagine if he were a lefty. My most feared opponent is 6'4"+ S&V lefty with a great kicker.

 

[Ballinbob]

Thanks all, will be sure to practice my slice serve and have it down before the Colorado State Open next month. I can hit it as a first serve but not sure I'm comfortable hitting it as my second yet.

I haven't played a good serve and volleyer like this in over a year and frankly, I kind of thought them to be an extinct species. This guy definitely caught me by surprise but it won't happen again.

Most of my points on serve were won by hitting a big first serve and then moving him around with my forehand as he couldn't hang with me from the baseline. I think for next time I'll continue to do that and when I have to hit second serves I will be sure to vary my placement and spin. It was my second serve that kind of let me down today after all

I also really like the idea of making him hit a tough volley to win the point. I read a thread from awhile back and someone was advocating a 2-shot pass where you hit a topspin shot that dips low and THEN pass off the next shot. I think this is a better, higher percentage play than trying to rip winners from the baseline and trying to hit angles that don't exist.

But man, one thing is for sure, you have to play well to beat these guys. They keep coming at you and they're just relentless

 

[Ballinbob]

Wow that opponent sounds...evil. Imagine if he were a lefty. My most feared opponent is 6'4"+ S&V lefty with a great kicker.

Haha you have no idea man, you have to stay on your toes against these guys. He had me scrambling all over the place and when I thought I hit a good shot he would come up with a drop volley and well, it was demoralizing to say the least.

I hope I never have to face a lefty like that either, sounds like a nightmare, especially if he has that out wide serve to the ad side down

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

Surprised no one has said this yet:

Beam a few right at the charging player. Nothing dirty about it, you just want to stop him from getting too comfortable and setting up camp within the service box.

Also, you won't have to go for impressive passing shots.

Again, you're not trying to take the player's head off. But trying to avoid a peg while coming up with a decent volley is hard thing to do for anyone.

 

[mikeler]

Also be mindful of where the guy is chipping from. If he is coming from the ad side in particular off a wide kicker, he has a lot of ground to cover if he chips cross court to your backhand. His forehand corner would be left rather open in that scenario. Even if he chips down the line on the ad side, your cross court forehand should still have plenty of area to hit to unless this guy is a jack rabbit closing the net.

 

[TennisCJC]

If he hits his chip either deep or very short with some bite and is good backing it up with volleys and overheads, you are going to lose the point the vast majority of the time. Simple percentages - he has the high percentage play and you don't.

One thing that will prevent someone from C&Charging your 2nd serve is to get your 1st serve in. You might want to take a bit off the first to get it in especially if he is not hurting you with his return.

Other ideas if you miss the 1st serve but don't know if they will work as I have not seen you play. But, you can analyze your skills and pick the best fit:
1. Serve some 2nd serves down the middle, some people don't chip and charge very well off the FH side.
2. Serve and volley on your 2nd serve especially if his chip is high as it crosses the net.
3. Lob off his approach. CC with topspin as the court is diagonally longer or underspin over his BH side.
4. Don't always try to pass cleanly - take pace off and hit a topspin dipper that makes him play a low volley.

 

[rkelley]

I think everyone has said all of this already, but:

- Hit your kicker second serve on your first serve to reduce the number of second serves that he sees.

- Do whatever you can to add variety to your second serve. The problem is that you don't want to hurt yourself. It's great to say "hit a slice." However if you don't own a solid slice it may not be a good choice for you. Hitting to his fh with your kicker is another option.

- On a twist serve to the bh, what I do (2hbh) is allow the ball to curve into my body and move it on it. When it kicks up and out I take it on the rise and drive it down. It's a very 2hbh type of return. I usually drive it back to the middle of the court as low and hard as I can. I'm not trying to win the point with the return, I'm trying to put the ball on top of his shoes and get a weak volley.

 

[dominikk1985]

if your second serve is weak you need to be a very good passing player to defeat chip and charge.

better is

1. try to serve a lot of first serves
2.hit your second serve deep and hard so that he cannot take it early. chip and charge is only effective if the returner can take the ball early (inside the baseline) because otherwise he won't be able to hit the first volley close enough to the net.

if you push him behind the baseline and he still chips and charges you can usually easily pass him.

 

[ilovetennis212]

Put up the video you play mini game. So we can actually give advises what you need.

 

[Ballinbob]

Thanks everyone, really appreciate this. I like the notion of not letting him see a lot of 2nd serves. Maybe I can hit a 3/4 pace first serve with some added topspin as my first b/c I know I can keep that in the vast majority of the time.

There's a lot of suggestions in this thread all of which are good. I need to re-read everything and chose maybe 2-3 strategies that I think I can pull off consistently. For passing I like the topspin dipper idea and drilling it at the guy. And for serving the 3/4 pace first serve makes sense in my books

As for returning the big kick serves, I usually like to stand 5 feet behind the baseline and loop it back really deep, but because he was coming in off every serve I couldn't employ this strategy. The few times I tried looping it back he volleyed it away for a winner for obvious reasons. I think I know what I need to do now and it's just a matter of practice. The fast indoor court didn't really help my case against this guy either

And I've posted some vids a few years back and got some great advice from them. I'm pretty happy with my game for the time being but I won't hesitate to post a video if I need help. I still have trouble with low/half volleys, so I'll prob post a vid of those soon

 

[movdqa]

The chip and charge player puts a lot of pressure on you as you feel that you have to do something immediately. Consider a few lobs if he doesn't look that good on overhead warmups or doesn't take any.

Consider playing some doubles where you'll get more practice against net players.

Develop the slice serve as mentioned. Beef up your kick serve too. Perhaps have someone work with you on disguising the serve by using the same toss on the three different kinds of serve.

 

[LeeD]

In pro tennis, returners often stand 5' behind the baseline, or more.
Encountering S/V'ers like Llodra, they just hit the first return with topspin and SHORT, around the service line, then pummel the low or half volley the server makes. You get to practice lots of topspin lobs, too.
As you know, I"m an old timer, so my volleys are much better than my low topspin passing shots. So, I step inside the baseline, and chop down the high bouncing ball, aiming for service line depth.

 

[CoachSubway]

To counter the high kick serve to the ad court, I would take a few steps to my left before he serves and then scoot somewhat into position once the toss is in the air (or just stay where you are). This will dare him to hit down the middle. And if he's going to kick it out wide anyway, then you're in good position to either return it down the line or hit an sharply angled crosscourt backhand, both of which will be tough for him to defend.

Against a chip and charger, two other things I'd do:

1) Every ball has to be at his feet. You don't necessarily have to pass him - hit it right at him but at his feet. Hitting a ball to his feet will probably get him to pop the ball back up to you.

2) Throw in a few lobs every now and then to throw him off.

You definitely have to be on top of your game, but at the 4.5 level, this guy obviously isn't unbeatable.

 

[dknotty]

agree 2nd serve variety is key. you need to practice slice to the fh along with kick to the bh at the least. try not to toss behind your head which tends to only produce kick. instead keep the toss right above your chin to be able to hit either kick or slice that has good margin for safety for 2nd serve. no need to go for the lines here.

This is so true. Variety can be type of serve, pace and location. Into the body serves often work very well as well.

Occasional lobs are great as well.

Also if your opponent is consistently hitting to the same place you can set up for a decent reply.

 

[movdqa]

If you have enough time (this may work better for slower surfaces), try returning the ball high with little pace to his forehand corner. This is something that would take a little practice. You could block, slice or hit a little topspin but the idea is to control the ball, not hit with a lot of pace.

It will be harder for him to reach if he's charging into the net because of the Pythagorean Theorem. Sure, he can run back to hit a forehand but that throws him off his rhythm and the baseline is where you have the advantage.

On standing in the alley or moving right to take the forehand - watch some of Isner's matches this week. He does just this because it seems that a lot of players are afraid of his forehand. Sure, he gets aced down the middle every once in a while but it puts more pressure on the server to get the ball in to the backhand which may result in a little less pace.

 

[Backhanded Compliment]

Yup vary your serve, any 4.5 will start to attack something if you give them the same look over and over again. I often play an evil lefty 4.5 with wicked slice bh and I still hit 60% of my kick seconds wide to his backhand the others are to the body or forehand (but I can get the low and half volley's... its a shotworth practicing and all of the great S&V's have this scooping low volley that goes crosscourt to counter the low slice return... when you hit it you feel like Mac or Edberg which makes it all worthwhile anyways).