how to eliminate unnecessary non hitting arm movement?

Rozroz

Rozroz

G.O.A.T.
when i watch my videos i cringe on how my non hitting arm moves,
it starts ok, but then gets totally straight down and behind my back:
NONHITTING.jpg


i just cannot make it act like proper non hitting arm posture (bent elbow, tucked in).
yes, i do it perfectly while shadow stroking,
but it get's back to being annoying, unnecessary and ugly while rallying.

did anyone here changed a similar chronic problem like this?
i need some useful tips to erase this bad behavior.
yes you'll probably tell me to catch the racket with that arm - BUT catching the racket with my non hitting arm feels very weird to me, like i'm gonna hit it with the racket, so i cannot do it..
 
Forehand follow through pictures.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ten...SivJXMAhUFcj4KHV9TDAMQsAQIHA&biw=1079&bih=690
Roger+Federer+forehand+follow+through+in+a+pink+Nike+shirt.JPG


It looks as if most have a bent elbow in the follow through but maybe their upper arms are not too different than yours. This is during the follow through and there may be options that don't matter much for impact.

Study some high level forehands and compare the non-hitting arm motion to yours.

In the takeback, high level players keep their non-hitting arms on the racket more than average tennis players. Also, the racket heads/throats are held higher. Their elbows are bent when the hand is on the throat.
Search: Takeback forehand pictures.
https://www.google.com/search?q=tak...L3vpXMAhXGbj4KHSVSDY4QsAQIHA&biw=1079&bih=690
RogerLeftHand.jpg


See where your technique starts to be different than theirs in high speed videos.
 
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You can do it you just don't want to.
Of course better technique often feels weird at first.

The continental grip felt very strange to me when I was first taught it but after two weeks it felt like home.

You gotta open your mind up a bit here.

Rozroz said:
yes you'll probably tell me to catch the racket with that arm - BUT catching the racket with my non hitting arm feels very weird to me, like i'm gonna hit it with the racket, so i cannot do it..
Click to expand...
 
Study some high level forehands and compare the non-hitting arm motion to yours.\


thanks.

well i see tons of videos all the time.
i am not wondering on the right position, i know it and shadowswing it fine.
the problem is how to ingrain it permanently without going back to the ugly un proper posture.
 
During practice hitting today I was trying to figure out how I can improve my torso rotation, put more power into shot without using my arm a lot. I specifically worked on the recommended nonhitting arm staying paralel to the baseline as long as possible untill the actual swing and then forcefully pulling the left arm and rotate the torso. The result was very promising. Then the battery of the ball machine went flat. I am excited about this and try more later.
 
Curious said:
During practice hitting today I was trying to figure out how I can improve my torso rotation, put more power into shot without using my arm a lot. I specifically worked on the recommended nonhitting arm staying paralel to the baseline as long as possible untill the actual swing and then forcefully pulling the left arm and rotate the torso. The result was very promising. Then the battery of the ball machine went flat. I am excited about this and try more later.
Click to expand...

hmmm.. so you say hold the NHA (non hitting..) parallel to the baseline as it should be at preparation for the stroke,
and exaggerate holding it the same, right up until the final forward motion from the hitting arm starts (and the big torso movement starts)?

i wish i had a way of not letting the NHA drop below the elbow ;)
 
heninfan99 said:
You can do it you just don't want to.
Of course better technique often feels weird at first.
You gotta open your mind up a bit here.
Click to expand...

so you say catching the racket with the NHA is the best way/only way of ingraining a proper placement?
 
I'm saying it's a very good way for you to change. You don't have to catch the racquet forever but after a while it feels quite nice.

You can try it on the wall, nothing at stake.

Where are your arms when you start the fh?

Rozroz said:
so you say catching the racket with the NHA is the best way/only way of ingraining a proper placement?
Click to expand...
 
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heninfan99 said:
I'm saying it's a very good way for you to change. You don't have to catch the racquet forever but after a while it feels quite nice.

You can try it on the wall, nothing at stake.

Where are your arms when you start the fh?
Click to expand...

my arms starts the FH in a regular way, NHA stretches parallel to base line while FH arm prepare until the forward motion,
but right after that my NHA goes way down and ends behind my back like the pic above.
i understand what you say it's just that while in rallies i completely go back to the bad posture without being aware.
 
Rozroz said:
my arms starts the FH in a regular way, NHA stretches parallel to base line while FH arm prepare until the forward motion,
but right after that my NHA goes way down and ends behind my back like the pic above.
i understand what you say it's just that while in rallies i completely go back to the bad posture without being aware.
Click to expand...
after enough reps even if you don't continue to catch it will stay in a good position and not flail around but you have to put in the reps until it feels right.

are you changing for aesthetic reasons or are you losing balance or something?
 
heninfan99 said:
after enough reps even if you don't continue to catch it will stay in a good position and not flail around but you have to put in the reps until it feels right.

are you changing for aesthetic reasons or are you losing balance or something?
Click to expand...

i think it's mainly aesthetic because i wanna vomit when i watch myself ;)
but i also suspect i lose some of the kinetic momentum and energy because i move the NHA too much that it might disturb the motion.
 
Rozroz said:
so you say hold the NHA (non hitting..) parallel to the baseline as it should be at preparation for the stroke,
and exaggerate holding it the same, right up until the final forward motion from the hitting arm starts (and the big torso movement starts)?
Click to expand...
Exactly. Give it a try. You might be surprised.
 
Rozroz said:
Study some high level forehands and compare the non-hitting arm motion to yours.\

thanks.

well i see tons of videos all the time.
i am not wondering on the right position, i know it and shadowswing it fine.
the problem is how to ingrain it permanently without going back to the ugly un proper posture.
Click to expand...

In a Federer forehand video, he has his arm straight for a while after releasing the throat, as often recommended. And then his elbow bends as his upper body turn accelerates. I'd speculate, from the way the elbow bent with the body turn acceleration, indicates that his triceps was not resisting, but relaxed. But muscle actions are never shown directly in videos. The upper arm is high and comes down. He ends up with the upper arm down and elbow bent as shown in the pro pictures.

Your elbow somehow winds up straight. Was your triceps relaxed?

Shadow swings with a racket that are the same speed as the stroke might use similar muscles. ?? The elbow in a high level forehand seems to bend because of body turn and inertia with not much muscle forces to prevent the elbow bend. ??

Comparing your forehand videos to high level forehands might identify your problem indicating some muscle actions that seem suspect. It could be as simple as relaxing your triceps muscle so that your elbow bends as you turn, like the pros.

Also, sometimes when body parts are at unusual places in the follow through, balance is an issue.
 
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Could the problem be that you don't have enough shoulder turn during the racquet takeback? Why does that left shoulder end up so much far back? If that's the case maybe holding the left arm paralel until the last moment could fix it too. Maybe.
 
well, you know what you need to do now. Good luck!
Rozroz said:
i think it's mainly aesthetic because i wanna vomit when i watch myself ;)
but i also suspect i lose some of the kinetic momentum and energy because i move the NHA too much that it might disturb the motion.
Click to expand...
 
i know i need to work on many things beside the NHA :oops:
hell 'm almost doing a chicken wing FH which is the ugliest stroke in the world!
it's insane how much we need to exaggerate all postures in order for it to look half decent.
 
that instant where the hand going forward and the racquet backwards. I like it. You don't see in WTA forehand.
 
Curious said:
During practice hitting today I was trying to figure out how I can improve my torso rotation, put more power into shot without using my arm a lot. I specifically worked on the recommended nonhitting arm staying paralel to the baseline as long as possible untill the actual swing and then forcefully pulling the left arm and rotate the torso. The result was very promising. Then the battery of the ball machine went flat. I am excited about this and try more later.
Click to expand...


Did you mean to say "I was taught to straighten the non-hitting arm toward the sideline just as I take that hand off the racket in the take-back. Then I swing the off-arm left as I lower the racket in the backswing. Ideally, just at the moment I initiate the forward swing (by initiating rotation of my UB) I simultaneously pull in the off-arm elbow (for UB rotation boost) and let the hitting shoulder externally rotate, pulling the racket's butt-cap out toward the ball." ??
 
Rozroz said:
when i watch my videos i cringe on how my non hitting arm moves,
it starts ok, but then gets totally straight down and behind my back:

i just cannot make it act like proper non hitting arm posture (bent elbow, tucked in).
yes, i do it perfectly while shadow stroking,
but it get's back to being annoying, unnecessary and ugly while rallying.

..........
i need some useful tips to erase this bad behavior.
.......
Click to expand...


There is a simple remedy. Don't be over-enthusiastic when you first try it, because you can pull a muscle if you go wild:

As you swing your off-arm left roll your off-arm hand/forearm counterclockwise. You'll see that lots of pro players do this. It more-or-less makes it impossible to drop the forearm. Try it! (carefully at first) This maneuver also makes the elbow pull-in extra effective at boosting the UB rotation exactly when you want it to begin. That boost is the point of the thing. The swing is to give the arm momentum. The pull-in (effectively shortening the arm) is to force its momentum into the UB, which is doing the real work getting the hitting arm (which has ESR applied) moving.

Edit: I'm posting this just so you can see the "roll the hand counter-clockwise" bit, as Fed does it in the first two slo-mo forehands of the video:
 
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Curiosity said:
....................

.............................. This maneuver also makes the elbow pull-in extra effective at boosting the UB rotation exactly when you want it to begin. That boost is the point of the thing. The swing is to give the arm momentum. The pull-in (effectively shortening the arm) is to force its momentum into the UB, which is doing the real work getting the hitting arm (which has ESR applied) moving.

Edit: I'm posting this just so you can see the "roll the hand counter-clockwise" bit, as Fed does it in the first two slo-mo forehands of the video:
Click to expand...

The off arm motion, at least for one arm, might be related to the ice skater spin illustrated below?
12-rotational-motion-55-728.jpg
 
Here is Federer's non-hitting arm position at impact.
792C7A50FEBD49FAAD420C7B73AE206E.jpg


Arm positions after impact cannot add to upper body rotation rate for pace. The video of some of the forehands shows that the shoulder turn has slowed down a lot by the time of impact. The ice skater analogy needs more analysis as this looks different.

He accelerates the off arm while straight with upper body turn and then appears to let it bend at the elbow........function???

Another
AE860E10A0E14E9C9CD7053C7520FEF9.jpg
 
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thanks for the info guys.i tried to concentrate a bit today. very hard not to forget.
and it messes up the stroke. will take quite some time.

ha, i think i better imitate one of the bent arm FHs, LOL. i'll never be able to go straight arm.
and i need my contact point to be at least a foot forward.
these things are still too hard to change.
 
Chas Tennis said:
The off arm motion, at least for one arm, might be related to the ice skater spin illustrated below?
Click to expand...


It is absolutely related, the same physics. The off-arm pull-in can be abrupt or smooth depending on the intention. You posted a clip of Roger hitting a soft easy practice forehand...and the pull-in was slow and easy, but distinct. You can pull up one of the aggressive Fed forehands over at TPdotnet and see him pull it in hard. I can recall like it was yesterday the first time I saw Sharapova launch an aggressive forehand. I was behind her. The muscles (you name them, I can't) around her left shoulder blade bulged incredibly.


The pull-in is as common and universal among pros as it is on the serve, and is timed the same way, to the need for rotation. On the forehand it is timed to the instant the player is ready to rotate, to pull out the racket butt-cap first, to leave the hitting arm/racket behind briefly in deeper ESR and racket lag. On the serve it is timed to coincide with the instant the hitting hand is about to rise, which happens slightly after the elbow begins upward.

I've been over this several times with pros. It's old hat. You can't do it without realizing the UB rotation and timing help.

For the connoisseur there is a fine point: If you look at Lendly in old videos you will see that he had a very different off arm motion. Its effect is the same. It accelerates the UB. He would leave the arm quite straight, then swing it down at the time others would pull their elbow in. He would do a loop with the arm, down then to the right and up. You can try it. It's fun and works. For various reasons very few players copied him. Federer and many other players compromise. They do a partial elbow pull-in and a partial "arm down, then lift."

Rosros never gets his off arm straight and up, aimed toward the right sideline, so he can't really benefit from the elbow pull (or the Lendl arm swing down etc.). If he gets the first part right, swings it, then pulls the elbow in as he launches his rotation and racket pull out....then he'll find that rotating the hand as I described (and as you can see Fed do in the first two hits in the video I posted) will keep the arm up....instead of falling to his side and back.
 
Curiosity said:
Did you mean to say "I was taught to straighten the non-hitting arm toward the sideline just as I take that hand off the racket in the take-back. Then I swing the off-arm left as I lower the racket in the backswing. Ideally, just at the moment I initiate the forward swing (by initiating rotation of my UB) I simultaneously pull in the off-arm elbow (for UB rotation boost) and let the hitting shoulder externally rotate, pulling the racket's butt-cap out toward the ball." ??
Click to expand...
Yep. But I admit yours sounds better:)
 
Rozroz said:
when i watch my videos i cringe on how my non hitting arm moves,
it starts ok, but then gets totally straight down and behind my back:
NONHITTING.jpg


i just cannot make it act like proper non hitting arm posture (bent elbow, tucked in).
yes, i do it perfectly while shadow stroking,
but it get's back to being annoying, unnecessary and ugly while rallying.

did anyone here changed a similar chronic problem like this?
i need some useful tips to erase this bad behavior.
yes you'll probably tell me to catch the racket with that arm - BUT catching the racket with my non hitting arm feels very weird to me, like i'm gonna hit it with the racket, so i cannot do it..
Click to expand...

Hi Rozroz, I have a similar issue to you, discussued in this thread with some videos

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/please-help-me-with-my-forehand.560551/

Later in the the thread I post another video where I have improved things a bit by catching the racket with my left hand. I found the transition easy by doing this. Initially it felt very weird, but what doesn't when you try something different for the first time?
 
Rozroz said:
well here's ALL my ugly FH in case it can make your tips more accurate ;)
ezgif_com_optimize.gif
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with your other arm.
Your hitting arm is the problem.
It is very stiff and cant generate power.
So to cover that problem you play with your whole body .
Your arm is stiff because its weak ,and its weak because you dont use it enough ,you use your whole body to generate power.
and even if you do somehow generate power you have no control what so ever because body will always move bit different, while the hand and wrist can be used much more accurate and from any position.
So you need to relax your arm a bit and use it way more instead of the whole body.
Look at Simon:
You can see his body is barely moving,hand and wrist do the work.
00:29 -
Soon your arm will get much more powerful because you will be actually using it.
And much more relaxed because of extra power.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Curiosity said:
It is absolutely related, the same physics. The off-arm pull-in can be abrupt or smooth depending on the intention. You posted a clip of Roger hitting a soft easy practice forehand...and the pull-in was slow and easy, but distinct. You can pull up one of the aggressive Fed forehands over at TPdotnet and see him pull it in hard. I can recall like it was yesterday the first time I saw Sharapova launch an aggressive forehand. I was behind her. The muscles (you name them, I can't) around her left shoulder blade bulged incredibly.


The pull-in is as common and universal among pros as it is on the serve, and is timed the same way, to the need for rotation. On the forehand it is timed to the instant the player is ready to rotate, to pull out the racket butt-cap first, to leave the hitting arm/racket behind briefly in deeper ESR and racket lag. On the serve it is timed to coincide with the instant the hitting hand is about to rise, which happens slightly after the elbow begins upward.

I've been over this several times with pros. It's old hat. You can't do it without realizing the UB rotation and timing help.

For the connoisseur there is a fine point: If you look at Lendly in old videos you will see that he had a very different off arm motion. Its effect is the same. It accelerates the UB. He would leave the arm quite straight, then swing it down at the time others would pull their elbow in. He would do a loop with the arm, down then to the right and up. You can try it. It's fun and works. For various reasons very few players copied him. Federer and many other players compromise. They do a partial elbow pull-in and a partial "arm down, then lift."

Rosros never gets his off arm straight and up, aimed toward the right sideline, so he can't really benefit from the elbow pull (or the Lendl arm swing down etc.). If he gets the first part right, swings it, then pulls the elbow in as he launches his rotation and racket pull out....then he'll find that rotating the hand as I described (and as you can see Fed do in the first two hits in the video I posted) will keep the arm up....instead of falling to his side and back.
Click to expand...

Here is a much more energetic Djokovic forehand at impact. As you described, his non-hitting arm is drawn in earlier and more. I see how this could help speed up the upper body rotation. Compare to Federer non-hitting arm at impact for an easier forehand. Thanks for describing this and knowing its variations!
3A4C8794FF8B4DD18754E861FDA51D44.jpg

Video

Easier Federer practice forehand at impact discussed in earlier posts.
792C7A50FEBD49FAAD420C7B73AE206E.jpg
 
Last edited:
Rozroz said:
when i watch my videos i cringe on how my non hitting arm moves,
it starts ok, but then gets totally straight down and behind my back:
NONHITTING.jpg


i just cannot make it act like proper non hitting arm posture (bent elbow, tucked in).
yes, i do it perfectly while shadow stroking,
but it get's back to being annoying, unnecessary and ugly while rallying.

did anyone here changed a similar chronic problem like this?
i need some useful tips to erase this bad behavior.
yes you'll probably tell me to catch the racket with that arm - BUT catching the racket with my non hitting arm feels very weird to me, like i'm gonna hit it with the racket, so i cannot do it..
Click to expand...

Just train yourself to try to "tuck" in your arm. It only requires that you forcibly to do it until it becomes a part of muscle memory. To this day, I still have times when I don't tuck the arm and kind of let it "flail". At times like that, I have hit my non-hitting arm on follow-through. OUCH, MAN! OUCH!

Just practice tucking the non-hitting arm when you start to bring the racquet forward. It will sink in eventually. BTW, don't rip on your forehand too much. I actually see way more that is good about it than bad.
 
Off arm get's behind everyone, when rotation is good.
So, bend your elbow, so it's ready for ready position as you face your opponent on recovery.
 
maxxy777 said:
It has nothing to do with your other arm.
Your hitting arm is the problem.
It is very stiff and cant generate power.
So to cover that problem you play with your whole body .
Your arm is stiff because its weak ,and its weak because you dont use it enough ,you use your whole body to generate power.
and even if you do somehow generate power you have no control what so ever because body will always move bit different, while the hand and wrist can be used much more accurate and from any position.
So you need to relax your arm a bit and use it way more instead of the whole body.
Look at Simon:
You can see his body is barely moving,hand and wrist do the work.
00:29 -
Soon your arm will get much more powerful because you will be actually using it.
And much more relaxed because of extra power.
Click to expand...

Not sure how you come to the conclusion that @Rozroz arm is weak. Simon is hardly Hercules. In fact he is nearly as far away as you can get. I have the problem of tensing up to hit the ball, its because its almost seems like a contradictory concept - staying loose to generate power. Especially when you've been exposed to other sporting/athletic environments your whole life, like lifting some weights in the gym or laying a tackle on the football field, where generating power is associated more with muscular contraction.
 
you talk about the too tight arm...
this can have many differences in my other FHs during practice/match
the GIF is the worst example..
i tend to have much looser strokes, with a lot more intended lag.
the GIF is a mid match shot under pressure..

TBH i'm more concerned about proper diastance from ball and late contact.
 
What do you think of Simon's technique in the posted vid?
Just curious
Rozroz said:
you talk about the too tight arm...
this can have many differences in my other FHs during practice/match
the GIF is the worst example..
i tend to have much looser strokes, with a lot more intended lag.
the GIF is a mid match shot under pressure..

TBH i'm more concerned about proper diastance from ball and late contact.
Click to expand...
 
heninfan99 said:
What do you think of Simon's technique in the posted vid?
Just curious
Click to expand...

he's a pro with rock solid strokes so who am i to...?
looks ok for a warm up, he's using a lot of the wrist.
but i bet if you compare Fed to him, Fed will look more natural and loose.

i think the Djokovik slo-mo mid match winner FH
is the best example of a tight FH like i did in the GIF (with no comparison of course ;) )
 
do you like what he's doing?
When you warm up do you do the whole body twisting thing?
Rozroz said:
he's a pro with rock solid strokes so who am i to...?
looks ok for a warm up, he's using a lot of the wrist.
but i bet if you compare Fed to him, Fed will look more natural and loose.
Click to expand...
 
i try to be as relaxed as possible in warm ups,
not to feel forced on any part of the chain..
but i guess in reality it's not quite what i do ;)

thanks for Nalby. the hand catching is most difficult for me atm.
it totally crumbles my stroke.
 
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