How to get more power on two handed backhand

I use a continental grip for my right hand and semi western for left, which is a topspin friendly grip.

But my problem is hitting the backhand with pace. I have a good amount of spin and can aim the ball 4 or more feet above the net and still get it to land in.

However, what can I do to add more power.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Try these:

1. visualize hitting thru 3 balls at contact. when you hit a topspin shot there is a degree of upward motion thru contact and some degree of across motion; but you can still think of driving up and thru 3 balls at contact. You've probably heard many pro commentators say, they used too much brush or the player pulled off the shot too soon and this is what they meant.
2. you can hit a fair amount of topspin without a lot of upward motion. next time you go out and practice, think of getting the top edge of the frame at contact level at its' lowest point and think of getting the bottom edge of the racket at contact as you follow thru. Best to try this on waist high balls. Principal is you don't need to drop the racket head way below contact and pull up way above contact when you are hitting for pace.

You can experiment with how much drop and upward motion and how much thru motion to get a feel for spin and power trade offs. My best 2HBHs have a tight rotation of topspin and decent pace.
 
There are two basic components in your swing path: vertical [topspin] and horizontal [drive]. it sounds like you want to tweak the ratio and reduce the vertical component and increase the horizontal component.

If you want to go all of the way in one direction, just swing completely level with no lift; that defines one extreme. Now start adding the vertical path.

Either method will get you to where you want to go; it's a matter of preference which one you choose.
 

Slicerman

Semi-Pro
There are two basic components in your swing path: vertical [topspin] and horizontal [drive]. it sounds like you want to tweak the ratio and reduce the vertical component and increase the horizontal component.

If you want to go all of the way in one direction, just swing completely level with no lift; that defines one extreme. Now start adding the vertical path.

Either method will get you to where you want to go; it's a matter of preference which one you choose.
Yes, this is the same way how I view strokes. A vertical vector and a horizontal vector both come together to draw a swing path. While swing speed is just a multiplier of the resultant vector.

OP, if you want to increase the drive of your shot, aka flattening, you may try swinging your backhand more "across the chest" rather than "over the shoulder".
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Hard to know what's going on without seeing you hit some of those backhands, but there are probably a couple of things you can experiment with to help with your pace. One drill that can help with finding a stronger move is to take your bottom hand off the racquet and have a pal hand feed you some balls (or you can drop feed to yourself) so that you can hit some shots on your backhand side using only your non-dominant hand (you'll be a little choked up on the grip). If you're a righty, you'll be hitting these "off-hand" forehands left handed. This can really help with activating your kinetic chain on that side.

Experiment with lighter grip pressure, especially compared with the pressure you use hitting forehands. With an extra hand gripping the racquet for your two-hander, you should be using a lighter grip and that should allow you to make a faster, more fluid release of the racquet through the ball. You can also try going from a semi-western grip to an eastern forehand grip with your left hand. That may help you find a better balance of velocity and spin.

The two-hander also generally needs a decent swing radius for the racquet to fly through the ball. Try experimenting with giving the ball a good amount of space so that you can really extend your left arm through contact. You might like the image of wrapping the racquet around the outside of the ball to help with generating that big healthy sweep through the strike zone. And drive onto your front foot as you extend through contact.
 

Dan R

Semi-Pro
There's a variety of power sources for the 2hb, stepping into the ball, core rotation, arm movement, wrist lag and release (be careful with this one a little bit is all you need), and the one that's not mentioned much is the rotation of the arms. As you start forward after the racket drop, for a righty, the right arm is above the left and about the time you hit the ball the left arm moves above the right. That's like a lever and it creates a lot of power. Nishikori does this better than anyone as in the video below, I believe this technique was pioneered in Russia most notably by Kafilnikov, and latter Safin. It's not the way Aggasi hit it.


I'd focus on the first three first, and the last two later they are harder to master and frankly you can hit a great backhand without it, Aggasi did, but if you really want to pulverize the ball it's the way to go.
 
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weelie

Semi-Pro
My backhand has always been faster than my forehand, but now the max speed is about the same I think, but forehand has usually more topspin. I can hit 72mph, though this is against an opponent who does not give me any speed to play against, so maybe could be gunned playing even faster.

For me, a good shoulder turn is where it's at. I play both open and closed stance, but latter basically only for DTL. I also nowadays take back high (in take back the handle is below the rack face), the shot feels more solid this way, although I did not do this as a kid (I was a big Agassi fan btw). Sometimes when the shot does not gel, in my mind, I focus on "hitting a forehand with my left hand" when I hit, other times I try to get as loose as I possibly can. I also grip the racket as far I comfortably can, so that the pinky of my right hand actually hangs off the butt end of the racket (does not touch the grip at all). I think my fastest shot ends with a step forward with left foot.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
There's a variety of power sources for the 2hb, stepping into the ball, core rotation, arm movement, wrist lag and release (be careful with this one a little bit is all you need), and the one that's not mentioned much is the rotation of the arms. As you start forward after the racket drop, for a righty, the right arm is above the left and about the time you hit the ball the left arm moves above the right. That's like a lever and it creates a lot of power. Nishikori does this better than anyone as in the video below, I believe this technique was pioneered in Russia most notably by Kafilnikov, and latter Safin. It's not the way Aggasi hit it.


I'd focus on the first three first, and the last two later they are harder to master and frankly you can hit a great backhand without it, Aggasi did, but if you really want to pulverize the ball it's the way to go.
+1... though can you explain more about what nish v agassi do/don't?
My backhand has always been faster than my forehand, but now the max speed is about the same I think, but forehand has usually more topspin. I can hit 72mph, though this is against an opponent who does not give me any speed to play against, so maybe could be gunned playing even faster.

For me, a good shoulder turn is where it's at. I play both open and closed stance, but latter basically only for DTL. I also nowadays take back high (in take back the handle is below the rack face), the shot feels more solid this way, although I did not do this as a kid (I was a big Agassi fan btw). Sometimes when the shot does not gel, in my mind, I focus on "hitting a forehand with my left hand" when I hit, other times I try to get as loose as I possibly can. I also grip the racket as far I comfortably can, so that the pinky of my right hand actually hangs off the butt end of the racket (does not touch the grip at all). I think my fastest shot ends with a step forward with left foot.
+1... 72mph against a push ball, that's pretty damn good... i can only get to like ~55mph

imo, the biggest issue with pace on my 2hbh, is just getting into position.
if i self feed, i can "crush it", but often on the run, i can't get into 100% alignment, and now i'm only getting like 60% of what i had when i was self feeding
so more precise footwork, will allow you to get 100% of whatever current pace/power you have, which is probably good enough, after you add the opponents incoming pace, etc...
 

weelie

Semi-Pro
+1... 72mph against a push ball, that's pretty damn good... i can only get to like ~55mph
That is of course max speed (based on Zenniz, which I've used for two years once a month), so I don't hit that every session. Based on the Zenniz stats my average shot speed last friendly match was 55mph, which is my personal record, so I guess at my best I am as likely to hit 38mph as 72mph... I don't blast the ball all the time, I wish I could. :D
 

RyanRF

Professional
A little bit of wrist can do a lot.

Also as others have mentioned, good preparation with the 2hbh is mandatory.
 

Wise one

Hall of Fame
I use a continental grip for my right hand and semi western for left, which is a topspin friendly grip.

But my problem is hitting the backhand with pace. I have a good amount of spin and can aim the ball 4 or more feet above the net and still get it to land in.

However, what can I do to add more power.

Switch to one-hander. It allows more powerful shots than two-hander.
 

Dan R

Semi-Pro
+1... though can you explain more about what nish v agassi do/don't?

.
Agassi, who I think has a great 2hb, was kind of unusual in that he has both arms straight before and after hitting the ball. Most of the men seem to start the swing with right arm straight and the left arm slightly bent (for a righty) then as the swing progresses it switches the left arm straightens and the right arm bends. Nishikori does this, so does Djokivic. The women tend to hit with both arms bent - like Serena. You can hit it really well with any of these styles, but they produce differences in the ball flight.

I think the women hit it with bent arms because they are pulling more with the dominant hand, as opposed to pushing with the non dominant like Nishikori does. I think for a lot of women the 2HB is their best shot because their power is in their core (hips and thighs) and the core rotation is a huge source of power for the 2hb. The men are stronger in the upper body, chest and shoulders, and those are the muscles you use to hit the forehand. So, they tend to have better forehands than backhands.

Agassi said once he felt like the 2hb was a right handed shot, which is counter to what most people say that it's a left handed forehand (again for a righty). I would guess that Agassi is pulling with the right arm more than say Nishikori. You can do it either way but I think it helps to understand what you are doing.

Personally, I always felt like it was a two handed shot and both arms are doing work.

A big difference between the two is the slot position. Agassi does not drop the racket as much and does not lag his wrists as much as Nishikori, which I think produces a flatter ball and probably more controlled ball. Again, that's fine you just have to know this and adjust accordingly. Murray hit's it flatter as well in part because he doesn't get the racket as deep into the slot, and rolls over the ball more and has a lower finish than Kei or Novak. Murray is kind of in between Agassi and Nishikori in this regard.

There's lots of options, and commonalities to all the swings, but I think it helps to pick a style that is close to what you naturally do and work from their.


 

iChen

Semi-Pro
Agassi apparently pulls with his right so it’s almost like a right hand swing up and through. I’ve tried both bent and straight and I always get more power from straight left.

The swing path...well I’ve gone to more flat and through the chest I feel like Murray. I will however, if I have limited time and moving to my left, I will swing up more like Djokovic sometimes does. Quicker bounce and a little more spin, less power yes, but I had little time to make a big swing regardless.

Through hours and hours of feeding though, I will say that I do not pull with my right. I think pulling with right causes me likely sometimes to be late or just pulling cap, but I get more power in the long pushing with my left.
 

Dan R

Semi-Pro
Agassi apparently pulls with his right so it’s almost like a right hand swing up and through. I’ve tried both bent and straight and I always get more power from straight left.

The swing path...well I’ve gone to more flat and through the chest I feel like Murray. I will however, if I have limited time and moving to my left, I will swing up more like Djokovic sometimes does. Quicker bounce and a little more spin, less power yes, but I had little time to make a big swing regardless.

Through hours and hours of feeding though, I will say that I do not pull with my right. I think pulling with right causes me likely sometimes to be late or just pulling cap, but I get more power in the long pushing with my left.

I too hit with a straight left arm. I don't feel like either arm dominates - it feels more like a baseball swing to me, like I'm using both arms. I've been trying to make my 2hb more like my forehand swing path. I've settled on starting my swing kind of like Nishikori, but then I try and use a windshield wiper move like the forehand to get more spin. I've always been able to hit it hard - so I'm trying to get more spin now. I also try and let the racket fall into the slot under it's own weight keeping it real loose and then let my wrists lag a bit as I move forward. It's kind of like the lag and release on the forehand. It's a work in progress.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
I too hit with a straight left arm. I don't feel like either arm dominates - it feels more like a baseball swing to me, like I'm using both arms. I've been trying to make my 2hb more like my forehand swing path. I've settled on starting my swing kind of like Nishikori, but then I try and use a windshield wiper move like the forehand to get more spin. I've always been able to hit it hard - so I'm trying to get more spin now. I also try and let the racket fall into the slot under it's own weight keeping it real loose and then let my wrists lag a bit as I move forward. It's kind of like the lag and release on the forehand. It's a work in progress.
Actually that’s interesting and I’ve never tried the windshield wiper thing with the BH. I swim more low to finish high over shoulder for spin but never tried wiper.

My BH is left hand dominant and I push with left.
 

mdonald17

New User
Something that I mention to alot of the players that I coach is having a greater contribution of the non-dominant hand - use your left hand to drive the racket forwards, to hit through the ball more.
People can often just have the hand on the racket but not do anything with it. Obviously I don't know if this is the case formyou, but just a thought.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
Agassi apparently pulls with his right so it’s almost like a right hand swing up and through. I’ve tried both bent and straight and I always get more power from straight left.

The swing path...well I’ve gone to more flat and through the chest I feel like Murray. I will however, if I have limited time and moving to my left, I will swing up more like Djokovic sometimes does. Quicker bounce and a little more spin, less power yes, but I had little time to make a big swing regardless.

Through hours and hours of feeding though, I will say that I do not pull with my right. I think pulling with right causes me likely sometimes to be late or just pulling cap, but I get more power in the long pushing with my left.
i was confused by that too...

then realized... i pull with my right (impossible not to, if you have a full shoulder turn - chin to shoulder), especially in the early phase of the swing,... the left hand just manipulates the racquet head (ww) in the right slot
then at some point, maybe at or just before contact, the left hand starts to push up and through, and the "forearm release" lets me explode into the ball

side note... at some point it didn't feel like i was pulling with my right because i wasn't fully turned, so it did feel like the left was doing alot/most of the work... and if i pulled (when not full turned), i was essentiall pulling the racquet face off the path of the ball.

my $0.02.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
i was confused by that too...

then realized... i pull with my right (impossible not to, if you have a full shoulder turn - chin to shoulder), especially in the early phase of the swing,... the left hand just manipulates the racquet head (ww) in the right slot
then at some point, maybe at or just before contact, the left hand starts to push up and through, and the "forearm release" lets me explode into the ball

side note... at some point it didn't feel like i was pulling with my right because i wasn't fully turned, so it did feel like the left was doing alot/most of the work... and if i pulled (when not full turned), i was essentiall pulling the racquet face off the path of the ball.

my $0.02.
Ya that’s sort of my experience too. Pulling with right..you’re pulling the cap. So really you could have a nice opportunity for a good one hander cause it would sort of have to be the same path.

I just found more power, breathing in air, turning shoulder, pushing using left hand hard to really drive through the ball as my favorite way. Less variables such as right hand to left doing work. My left arm isn’t really strong either anyway but I let my legs momentum going forward and shoulder uncoiling do most of the power.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
OP ... full shoulder turn, good timing with relaxed everything... and get after it with left hand. I think Agassi hit the hell out of it with his left hand by contact. :D

I agree with @Dan R said ... both arms working together. The shoulders/arms triangle backswings together ... and then swings forward together.

For me, from the backswing to the drop ... it's basically a 1hbh with that left hand lightly attached. I'm right handed.

I would not describe the start of the swing as a pull with the right arm. I think I turn the torso which turns the shoulders/arm triangle.

I start getting after it with the left arm pretty much when the shoulder turn starts forward. This probably means I don't have enough lag (or any). This is when all resemblance to a 1hbh ends. The left arm now starts participating in weight bearing ... and boosts the shoulder/arm triangle speed. On the backswing, I could let go with the left arm. I feel like the right arm is doing it's least at contact.

I think we all vary when the left hand fires, and lag ... but I would be very surprised if anyone his hitting a 2hbh with pace without getting after it with the left hand. Any rec versions of Borg out there? I think you can pinpoint when we fire the left hand by watching for when the racquet head starts to come around. I think you can spot it in the Agassi video.
 
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D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
Hit the ball harder. Practice. Repeat. Hit. The. Ball. Harder. Got it?
so true.

no matter how many volumes we write on "how to hit the ball harder", it won't be enough compared to just getting on the court hitting a million balls as hard as you can. eventually your body will figure out what it needs to do... but more importantly, it will be the litle things that are specific to you, that you'll discover.

i can describe all the things that worked for me, but maybe it won't work for you because you're already doing those things right, and it's somethinge else that's blocking your potential.

my $0.02
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
so true.

no matter how many volumes we write on "how to hit the ball harder", it won't be enough compared to just getting on the court hitting a million balls as hard as you can. eventually your body will figure out what it needs to do... but more importantly, it will be the litle things that are specific to you, that you'll discover.

i can describe all the things that worked for me, but maybe it won't work for you because you're already doing those things right, and it's somethinge else that's blocking your potential.

my $0.02
Do you think most bodies would figure out insufficient shoulder turn? I think I have a stupid body ... it didn't figure it out. You can swing as hard as you want ... but if it's without shoulder turn the pace ain't going to blow your skirt up.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
Do you think most bodies would figure out insufficient shoulder turn? I think I have a stupid body ... it didn't figure it out. You can swing as hard as you want ... but if it's without shoulder turn the pace ain't going to blow your skirt up.
can't say for sure... but in my experience, with serving for example, there are alot of micro lessons i've learned, that i don't think anyone could have pointed out to me specifically (probably unique to me). alot of those lessons were definitely by accident (but i did need a coach to point out my incorrect toss location for slice/flat!)

the point is that we all need:
* lots of reps (including experiementation)
* video (self review)
* coach (3rd person review)
* study concepts/principles.

too often, folks just rely on a coach to tell them what's wrong (ie. as evidenced by "coaches suck" threads - then realize that folks don't actually practice much afterwards), but don't necessarily do enough reps. not saying you're doing that, just saying you need all of it.

side note, it's really difficult to coach based on words (espeically when it's through a 3rd party!) :) a video would have made alot of these things clearer, and probalby more relevant.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
can't say for sure... but in my experience, with serving for example, there are alot of micro lessons i've learned, that i don't think anyone could have pointed out to me specifically (probably unique to me). alot of those lessons were definitely by accident (but i did need a coach to point out my incorrect toss location for slice/flat!)

the point is that we all need:
* lots of reps (including experiementation)
* video (self review)
* coach (3rd person review)
* study concepts/principles.

too often, folks just rely on a coach to tell them what's wrong (ie. as evidenced by "coaches suck" threads - then realize that folks don't actually practice much afterwards), but don't necessarily do enough reps. not saying you're doing that, just saying you need all of it.

side note, it's really difficult to coach based on words (espeically when it's through a 3rd party!) :) a video would have made alot of these things clearer, and probalby more relevant.
Without a video ... this thread was just entertainment. :D

You know from our early discussion here about my 2hbh ball machine reps ... BBP does his reps.

Explaining pace is always tricky. I think a golf drive, swinging a baseball bat and hitting a tennis ball share a lot of common elements. I have come to the conclusion pace/distance is more a matter of timing skeletal movements (range of motion and timing) than muscle and strength. I'm not a big (strong) guy and hit 250-260 avg yard drives. I would hit the occasional 290-300 yard drive that couldn't be explained by wind, slope or run. When they happened, I never felt like I swung harder. That's what I mean by "tricky" ... hard to pinpoint what happened different from the 250 and 290 yard drive.

To me ... power comes from hip, shoulders, wrist. I think if I had to pick just one ... probably the wrist. One of my friends could hit a 250 yard drive from a very short backswing. We were on the teebox one day with an old roomate of mine that was an ex-D1 golfer, and he saw this guy hit a drive. He leaned over and said ... "if you ever doubted the role of hands and wrist in the golf swing ... just watch him hit his drive". What he did was immediately set his hands (c o c k e d) as soon as the club started back. Even with the short backswing, timing the release of the hands provided good club head speed.

I guess the other golf related lesson was ... hit in the middle of the club ... hit in the middle of your strings.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Here is an example of 2hbh "timing issues" ... which are required to "hit the ball harder". I think most rec players will hit their best 2hbh pace off stepping onto their front leg (right leg for right hander), so that's the example that follows.

A right hander would be the easiest example, but Nadal has been ripping his 2hbh lately as good as anyone, let's use him as an example:



Short version: Nadal coils over his right leg, but uncoils over the left leg. That's a big timing dance ... and you can swing as hard as you want and if it's not in sync with this (and the drop) ... WEAK TEA 2hbh.

Longer version:

Frame 1: just like the FH, a full turn requires hip+shoulder turn. Nadal's left foot is off the ground here, so his initial coil (hips + shoulders) are over the right leg
Frame 2: just shifting weight to front foot ... not there yet ... final hip+shoulder turn over right leg
Frame 3: more weight transfer ... hip and shoulder line maintained ... drop is starting here in the step to left leg (no shoulder turn into shot yet)
Frame 4: weight transfer complete, have hit the slot and hip and shoulder turn (uncoiling) has started ... Note: this uncoiling now over left leg, not right ... right is no longer weight bearing
Frame 5, 6: uncoiling over left leg continues through the stroke, through follow through

So without even talking about "lag", or dominant vs non-dominant arms, or snaps, or how hard you are trying to swing ... that's a fairly complicated timing sequence to get down. If you fire your shoulder turn or arms to early (before you have completed your weight transfer ... or before your drop), you will rob your power.

This is the kind of thing your work out with reps, or drills. I think I would have got there faster knowing from the start this is a base 2hbh building block ... but not sure. Sometimes you just have to hit enough balls until you "feel" it. A coach can only guide you with instruction and drills ... but at the end of the day it's your muscle memory.

This was from the following video ... @00:24ish ... full rip strokes, not just warmup

 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
had another thought about this question, @ByeByePoly.

try swinging a heavier object, like a tennis swing:
*etchswing is my favorite
*kids baseball bat
*etc,...
you can feel for yourself where all the power sources (leg drive, hip rotation, arms, etc,...) are coming from, and what you need to do to generate more power.

imo the more you can rely on your power sources nearer the ground (legs, hips), the more accurate your shots will be. adding arms and wrist will add power, but will sacrifice control (or you'll need to spend a lot more time refining that technique)
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
had another thought about this question, @ByeByePoly.

try swinging a heavier object, like a tennis swing:
*etchswing is my favorite
*kids baseball bat
*etc,...
you can feel for yourself where all the power sources (leg drive, hip rotation, arms, etc,...) are coming from, and what you need to do to generate more power.

imo the more you can rely on your power sources nearer the ground (legs, hips), the more accurate your shots will be. adding arms and wrist will add power, but will sacrifice control (or you'll need to spend a lot more time refining that technique)
Agree ... and I can see my use of the term "power source" was way to vague.

Let's see if I can state my theory :D better:

I have started to think the skeletal hinge points (hip/shoulders/wrist), and the timing/efficiency of activating them are MUCH more important than muscles. That's why you can see a little kid, or skinny legged guy rip a shot. As I have posted before, I don't buy into the Lock & Roll spinning version of k-chain. You can try shadow swings without a racquet, and see how fast you can spin your arm, and it's just not that impressive. What I think is really going on is we have a weighted lever (arm/s + raquet) that we have to give initial momentum with (leg/hip/shoulder). But during the stroke, it's own mass and momentum carry the stroke... that's why it feels weightless and relaxed to us by contact. So I view a FH more like swinging an axe ... initial effort to start momentum, and then the mass and velocity takes over. So my theory relies on a solid base to provide that initial momentum. You are saying the same thing with "legs/hips/arms" ... the muscles providing the initial momentum (base) ... timed correctly ... provides the consistent stroke. That's why "avoid arming" is valid ... arming consistency is much harder to pull off. (although that's another post ... it has occurred to me the vast majority of players in my competitive tennis over the years were all "too little shoulder turn ... and too much arm, and yet played at a very good level).

So in my theory ... the "when" of 1) hip rotation 2) shoulder (nipples :D) rotation 3) forearm/racquet angle release is EVERYTHING. That's where I was too vague before. Wrist/Hand angle release didn't mean using the smaller muscles (arm/wrist) to power. It meant using the smaller muscles to set the angle at the right time ... and releasing at the right time.

Even if one differs on how much "shoulder/arm" spin comes from the k-chain thing, the common ground is "shoulder swings" and not "arm swings".

I had to look up the etchswing ... I think a buddy brought that to the court once years ago. I think doing the "heavier" thing makes sense. My guess is that helps drill in the "no arm swings" thing quickly. Easy to arm a light racquet ... not so much with extra weight. Really ... all you need to do is give your beginners one of @Shroud 's racquets.

Edit:

- range of sketal hinging should have been included

- ankle k-chaining? I don't think we are giving the ankles the respect they deserve. :D Knee rotation? :confused:
 
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iChen

Semi-Pro
Don’t think I could do that much coiling and uncoiling with my legs. Sometimes when I want power I just lean on my front foot and then square up.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Instead of my beginner skills, I’ll let Agassi do the talking.


However I will say though I like shots a little higher and swingpath is flatter across the chest.
No ... iChen video. Want to check backswing, prep, drop, timing, lag, snap, hip coiling/uncoiling, weight transfer, contact point, shoe color
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Also funny since I just watched and practiced a little last night, always looks as if Agassi’s right arm is really stiff. Guess he really does pull the racquet with right and not push with left.
Straight/straight ... pulls with both ... starts firing extra with left when racquet head starts rotating forward.

IChen video ... IChen video ... IChen video ... IChen video ...
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
Straight/straight ... pulls with both ... starts firing extra with left when racquet head starts rotating forward.

IChen video ... IChen video ... IChen video ... IChen video ...
Alright I’ll try to vid some this coming week :oops: if my phone will hold up :p

Shoe color?!?!?! Oh god this’ll be a disaster.
 
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vex

Hall of Fame
There are two basic components in your swing path: vertical [topspin] and horizontal [drive]. it sounds like you want to tweak the ratio and reduce the vertical component and increase the horizontal component.

If you want to go all of the way in one direction, just swing completely level with no lift; that defines one extreme. Now start adding the vertical path.

Either method will get you to where you want to go; it's a matter of preference which one you choose.
Angle at contact is equally important. If he closes more he could just hit harder if he maintains the same spin.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Alright I’ll try to vid some this coming week :oops: if my phone will hold up :p

Shoe color?!?!?! Oh god this’ll be a disaster.
Excellent. We will call the instructors for iChen coaching. I will just judge the shoes.

I have not worked out my videoing skills yet. It's actually comical to watch me turn on the ball machine and jog with suspect hamstring to start recording. You don't need a long video to check strokes ... a couple of minutes is fine.
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
Excellent. We will call the instructors for iChen coaching. I will just judge the shoes.

I have not worked out my videoing skills yet. It's actually comical to watch me turn on the ball machine and jog with suspect hamstring to start recording. You don't need a long video to check strokes ... a couple of minutes is fine.
I’m probably gonna have to do drop feeds. Don’t think I get a round at the ball machine this week :mad::mad:
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
Straight/straight ... pulls with both ... starts firing extra with left when racquet head starts rotating forward.

IChen video ... IChen video ... IChen video ... IChen video ...
If Agassi's left arm is straight near contact how can that arm be supplying much forward force, either pulling or pushing? A straight arm in that position will be very weak.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
If Agassi's left arm is straight near contact how can that arm be supplying much forward force, either pulling or pushing? A straight arm in that position will be very weak.
I can't hit a 2hbh over the net without getting after it with the left arm/hand ... approximately when butt cap reaches my belly button. I hit bent/straight ... left arm straight at contact. I can hit it straight/straight (don't ... just tried with ball machine) and it doesn't change where my left arm/hand fires. Straight arms don't prevent forward force ... Fed hits a straight arm FH pretty good.

Edit: if straight arms at contact are weak, then both of Agassi's arms are weak at contact.
 

rkelley

Hall of Fame
I can't hit a 2hbh over the net without getting after it with the left arm/hand ... approximately when butt cap reaches my belly button. I hit bent/straight ... left arm straight at contact. I can hit it straight/straight (don't ... just tried with ball machine) and it doesn't change where my left arm/hand fires. Straight arms don't prevent forward force ... Fed hits a straight arm FH pretty good.

Edit: if straight arms at contact are weak, then both of Agassi's arms are weak at contact.
Straight arms are weak in any motion where the arm is being rotated by the shoulder. It's physics (a moment on a long lever arm is not going to generate much force at the end of the lever) and how we're built (our shoulders don't have any adaptations to mitigate the physics issue). So pushing the racquet forward with a single straight arm is not a good plan.

However straight arms are very strong in tension and compression.

2hbh are more complicated because with two arms forming a triangle with the shoulders the two straight arms working together can generate forces that would be difficult with a single straight arm.

Specifically with a straight/bent 2hbh (I hit with this configuration too), the right arm is in a great position to pull along the racquet handle. The left arm is generally in a poor position to push forward (with the exception of shrugging with the shoulder through the straight arm). However it is in a good position to create a fulcrum point for the pulling right arm. If the racquet is laid back until right before contact then that pulling right arm can really help whip the racquet into the ball.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Straight arms are weak in any motion where the arm is being rotated by the shoulder. It's physics (a moment on a long lever arm is not going to generate much force at the end of the lever) and how we're built (our shoulders don't have any adaptations to mitigate the physics issue). So pushing the racquet forward with a single straight arm is not a good plan.

However straight arms are very strong in tension and compression.

2hbh are more complicated because with two arms forming a triangle with the shoulders the two straight arms working together can generate forces that would be difficult with a single straight arm.

Specifically with a straight/bent 2hbh (I hit with this configuration too), the right arm is in a great position to pull along the racquet handle. The left arm is generally in a poor position to push forward (with the exception of shrugging with the shoulder through the straight arm). However it is in a good position to create a fulcrum point for the pulling right arm. If the racquet is laid back until right before contact then that pulling right arm can really help whip the racquet into the ball.
My guess is we hit the 2hbh very similar, and this is just a "lost in translation" thing. Also note, I'm just 2 years (and not much match play) in my attempted conversion to 2hbh... so I don't speak from years experience. That said ... I'm in the period where I'm still having to think about the stroke.

I am right handed. I hit bent (right)/straight|flex *** (left) ... designation based on arm position at contact.

A couple of observations:

- the left arm doesn't start from straight. It starts from that weak T Rex arm thing (borrowed that from Jolly). So it is in the process of extending from backswing to contact.
- I think we agree on the shoulder arm triangle thing working together at the start of the swing. To me, at the start, there is no left push vs right pull thing going on. I think the start of the turn is just a shoulder turn which brings the right arm and hand along. That right hand is attached to the racquet, it is in fact pulling the racquet. I think I just react against the idea it's a pull with right arm muscles ... maybe like the finishing of a 1hbh. I don't feel that in mine.
- to me, the first half of the forward swing feels like a shoulder turned 1hbh ... with the right arm supporting most of the racquet... with the left arm doing it's T Rex thing. Then part way into the swing (we all vary) ... the left arm fires/extends into contact. I think the left arm is doing it's least at the backswing, and the right arm is doing it's least a contact (both doing a lot to even support the weight and maintain arm triangle positions).

No matter how we vary ... we all have that 20lbs of arm triangle thing going on. No way we can pull that off without the shoulders and arms working A LOT together. We throw that arm triangle from our uncoiling. That's why I really never believe it's just a left handed FH. Can't be ... that other arm weighs a lot ... your grip is now made up of two hands, and your arm-to-racquet is now two arms. I believe I boost the arm triangle speed with the left arm (I guess I would call that pushing ... have to think about that). I also think I hit the ball with my left hand ... but it's not exactly the same as a FH. That other hand is there.

Here is some snapshots from my ball machine session this morning. This is what I mean by the left arm extending into contact. Maybe more power than swinging the extended lever you were talking about.



*** Looks like my left arm doesn't get all the way straight, at least on this shot. Maybe if I straighten it I will quit hitting so many near the tip. :confused:

Here is the video from my ball machine session this morning. This was the "good stretch". I'm at the point where I can almost look like I know what I'm doing, and then completely spray one. That's why I keep bagging the 2hbh in singles ... my 1hbh slice misses are not as embarrassing.

Feel free to give me any tips (anyone else also). Wasn't this thread about 2hbh "power". I need more of that. Who doesn't.



Edit: it also occurs to me we get the benefit of much of the weight of the arm triangle hanging down in the initiation of the swing... like an elephant swinging it's trunk. Even on higher balls, you have some angle, and upper arms down. Same with swinging a bat ... upper arms down. So when I talk about 20+ lbs of arms and racquet being supported, that's not in the fully extended position at the start of the swing. I tend to think of racquet drops as timing and not an addition to power. However ... when you see Fed swing his FH with straight down ... and 2hbh triangles down in the swing, that has to be pendulum aided.
 
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My guess is we hit the 2hbh very similar, and this is just a "lost in translation" thing. Also note, I'm just 2 years (and not much match play) in my attempted conversion to 2hbh... so I don't speak from years experience. That said ... I'm in the period where I'm still having to think about the stroke.

I am right handed. I hit bent (right)/straight|flex *** (left) ... designation based on arm position at contact.

A couple of observations:

- the left arm doesn't start from straight. It starts from that weak T Rex arm thing (borrowed that from Jolly). So it is in the process of extending from backswing to contact.
- I think we agree on the shoulder arm triangle thing working together at the start of the swing. To me, at the start, there is no left push vs right pull thing going on. I think the start of the turn is just a shoulder turn which brings the right arm and hand along. That right hand is attached to the racquet, it is in fact pulling the racquet. I think I just react against the idea it's a pull with right arm muscles ... maybe like the finishing of a 1hbh. I don't feel that in mine.
- to me, the first half of the forward swing feels like a shoulder turned 1hbh ... with the right arm supporting most of the racquet... with the left arm doing it's T Rex thing. Then part way into the swing (we all vary) ... the left arm fires/extends into contact. I think the left arm is doing it's least at the backswing, and the right arm is doing it's least a contact (both doing a lot to even support the weight and maintain arm triangle positions).

No matter how we vary ... we all have that 20lbs of arm triangle thing going on. No way we can pull that off without the shoulders and arms working A LOT together. We throw that arm triangle from our uncoiling. That's why I really never believe it's just a left handed FH. Can't be ... that other arm weighs a lot ... your grip is now made up of two hands, and your arm-to-racquet is now two arms. I believe I boost the arm triangle speed with the left arm (I guess I would call that pushing ... have to think about that). I also think I hit the ball with my left hand ... but it's not exactly the same as a FH. That other hand is there.

Here is some snapshots from my ball machine session this morning. This is what I mean by the left arm extending into contact. Maybe more power than swinging the extended lever you were talking about.



*** Looks like my left arm doesn't get all the way straight, at least on this shot. Maybe if I straighten it I will quit hitting so many near the tip. :confused:

Here is the video from my ball machine session this morning. This was the "good stretch". I'm at the point where I can almost look like I know what I'm doing, and then completely spray one. That's why I keep bagging the 2hbh in singles ... my 1hbh slice misses are not as embarrassing.

Feel free to give me any tips (anyone else also). Wasn't this thread about 2hbh "power". I need more of that. Who doesn't.



Edit: it also occurs to me we get the benefit of much of the weight of the arm triangle hanging down in the initiation of the swing... like an elephant swinging it's trunk. Even on higher balls, you have some angle, and upper arms down. Same with swinging a bat ... upper arms down. So when I talk about 20+ lbs of arms and racquet being supported, that's not in the fully extended position at the start of the swing. I tend to think of racquet drops as timing and not an addition to power. However ... when you see Fed swing his FH with straight down ... and 2hbh triangles down in the swing, that has to be pendulum aided.
My guess is we hit the 2hbh very similar, and this is just a "lost in translation" thing. Also note, I'm just 2 years (and not much match play) in my attempted conversion to 2hbh... so I don't speak from years experience. That said ... I'm in the period where I'm still having to think about the stroke.

I am right handed. I hit bent (right)/straight|flex *** (left) ... designation based on arm position at contact.

A couple of observations:

- the left arm doesn't start from straight. It starts from that weak T Rex arm thing (borrowed that from Jolly). So it is in the process of extending from backswing to contact.
- I think we agree on the shoulder arm triangle thing working together at the start of the swing. To me, at the start, there is no left push vs right pull thing going on. I think the start of the turn is just a shoulder turn which brings the right arm and hand along. That right hand is attached to the racquet, it is in fact pulling the racquet. I think I just react against the idea it's a pull with right arm muscles ... maybe like the finishing of a 1hbh. I don't feel that in mine.
- to me, the first half of the forward swing feels like a shoulder turned 1hbh ... with the right arm supporting most of the racquet... with the left arm doing it's T Rex thing. Then part way into the swing (we all vary) ... the left arm fires/extends into contact. I think the left arm is doing it's least at the backswing, and the right arm is doing it's least a contact (both doing a lot to even support the weight and maintain arm triangle positions).

No matter how we vary ... we all have that 20lbs of arm triangle thing going on. No way we can pull that off without the shoulders and arms working A LOT together. We throw that arm triangle from our uncoiling. That's why I really never believe it's just a left handed FH. Can't be ... that other arm weighs a lot ... your grip is now made up of two hands, and your arm-to-racquet is now two arms. I believe I boost the arm triangle speed with the left arm (I guess I would call that pushing ... have to think about that). I also think I hit the ball with my left hand ... but it's not exactly the same as a FH. That other hand is there.

Here is some snapshots from my ball machine session this morning. This is what I mean by the left arm extending into contact. Maybe more power than swinging the extended lever you were talking about.



*** Looks like my left arm doesn't get all the way straight, at least on this shot. Maybe if I straighten it I will quit hitting so many near the tip. :confused:

Here is the video from my ball machine session this morning. This was the "good stretch". I'm at the point where I can almost look like I know what I'm doing, and then completely spray one. That's why I keep bagging the 2hbh in singles ... my 1hbh slice misses are not as embarrassing.

Feel free to give me any tips (anyone else also). Wasn't this thread about 2hbh "power". I need more of that. Who doesn't.



Edit: it also occurs to me we get the benefit of much of the weight of the arm triangle hanging down in the initiation of the swing... like an elephant swinging it's trunk. Even on higher balls, you have some angle, and upper arms down. Same with swinging a bat ... upper arms down. So when I talk about 20+ lbs of arms and racquet being supported, that's not in the fully extended position at the start of the swing. I tend to think of racquet drops as timing and not an addition to power. However ... when you see Fed swing his FH with straight down ... and 2hbh triangles down in the swing, that has to be pendulum aided.
Based on the way your hitting, it seems your not using your core for any power and just the arms, instead of concentrating on many points at once just work on getting your core involved, you'll thank me when your ripping winners from every position on the court
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Based on the way your hitting, it seems your not using your core for any power and just the arms, instead of concentrating on many points at once just work on getting your core involved, you'll thank me when your ripping winners from every position on the court
Oh ... I not only would thank you ... I would buy you a beer. But I'm not so sure I'm not using a lot of core when I'm set. I think when I'm set and on time, my coil (hips + shoulders) look ok. Can you really uncoil from there without core. Maybe it's a matter of degree. Next time out I will make a conscious thought to "core more" ... and see what I notice. Thanks for the tip.

Ironically ... I just posted on @tlm 's thread about "too much arm". Check it out and post a response to that post. TLM would be interested also.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
You don’t really “drive” forward or push forward with your back leg.
I have decided (rightly or wrongly) that the "step forward" in 2hbhs and the non-open stance FHs ... we don't power that much of the stroke from the step. I watch a lot of pro 2hbhs that vary quite a bit on the step, but all rip the ball. For example, Zverev takes a massive step ... certainly evidence it matters a lot. But I see to many... Murray for example ... where he rips it from a small step. To me, it's the timing of coiling from the back leg, and the uncoiling from the front leg ... that are the big issues. I feel like I "leg drive" from an open stance FH... but just time the step for the 2hbh.

But I'm glad you brought it up. It might be worth a thread just to ask that very question ... how important is the back leg on 2hbhs and non-open stance FHs. Are you going to post it, or me? :D

Here is some history from my 2hbh that is related to your question. The following video was from last fall when I was seeing where I stood. I came to the conclusion (on my own, so likely flawed) that I needed to work on a couple of things:

1) get rid of that step back thing getting into the stroke
2) try and keep head level and quit stepping UP so much in the stroke

Maybe I inadvertently took to much back leg drive out of it. That said... I'm hitting the same pace (or lack of pace) with my changes.

 
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