How to harness and improve my topspin?

zill

Legend
I've come to the realization that in a match I resort to topspin.

No matter how much I practice hitting flatish shots, in a match when things get tight I put extra topspin. I'm just going to accept this. My question is how can I hit with topspin but also aggressively and hence take it to the next level. Am 4.5 at the moment.
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
like off your back foot type topspin?
the more aggressive i hit, the more topspin i hope i'm hitting (ie. by virtue of increasing my rhs)... just gettting the ratio right is the key...

so i'm gonna guess you mean, you tend not to play aggressively when you know you should... play points where if the ball lands somewhere such that you have 1 or both feet inside the baseline, you must attack it, no matter what...
 

zill

Legend
like off your back foot type topspin?
the more aggressive i hit, the more topspin i hope i'm hitting (ie. by virtue of increasing my rhs)... just gettting the ratio right is the key...

so i'm gonna guess you mean, you tend not to play aggressively when you know you should... play points where if the ball lands somewhere such that you have 1 or both feet inside the baseline, you must attack it, no matter what...

Yes basically the tighter the game the more net clearance I go which means lopping the ball up but also making sure it goes deep. Problem is that doesn't trouble experienced players!
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
Yes basically the tighter the game the more net clearance I go which means lopping the ball up but also making sure it goes deep. Problem is that doesn't trouble experienced players!
yeah, i hear ya... grinding loopy deep balls is/was my goto strat,... but against better comp, they attack that ball, gaining the initiative.
problem is, that against folks my level (and lower), it's extremely effective... basically outlast them until they make a mistake.

big thing i notice against better players... is that as soon as i hit a single short ball, they attack, and start taking the initiative, come to net, finish....
when i started doing that,
i'd miss the aggressive "setup shot"
i'd miss the transition shot
etc...
realized i just need to work on those shots more (ie. the aggressive shot, when i'm inside the baseline, the transition shots at net, etc...)
i'm so used to just hitting the neutral rally ball from a ft behind the baseline, and 2-3ft left/right of the center hash... that once i "earned the short ball", i didn't have enough reps in the other strokes to consistently executue them in a match.

caveat: once you start practicing these strokes, and attemtpting to go on the offence, you'll find that in the short term, you'll lose to folks you used to beat through attrition... which is a tough pill to swallow (for anyone) if their ego is any way tied to their tennis (no one here, right?!)
 
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zill

Legend
yeah, i hear ya... grinding loopy deep balls is/was my goto strat,... but against better comp, then attack that ball, gaining the initiative.
problem is, that against folks my level (and lower), it's extremely effective... basically outlast them until they make a mistake.

big thing i notice against better players... is that as soon as i hit a single short ball, they attack, and start taking the initiative, come to net, finish....
when i started doing that,
i'd miss the aggressive "setup shot"
i'd miss the transition shot
etc...
realized i just need to work on those shots more (ie. the aggressive shot, when i'm inside the baseline, the transition shots at net, etc...)
i'm so used to just hitting the neutral rally ball from a ft behind the baseline, and 2-3ft left/right of the center hash... that once i "earned the short ball", i didn't have enough reps in the other strokes to consistently executue them in a match.

caveat: once you start practicing these strokes, and attemtpting to go on the offence, you'll find that in the short term, you'll lose to folks you used to beat through attrition... which is a tough pill to swallow (for anyone) if their ego is any way tied to their tennis (no one here, right?!)

You are spot on. Seems like i’m trying to draw errors as it seems most of my opponents don’t even play tennis that often per week!

Interesting or maybe play slightly lesser players (and win but not as big margin) being aggressive with short balls?
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
You are spot on. Seems like i’m trying to draw errors as it seems most of my opponents don’t even play tennis that often per week!

Interesting or maybe play slightly lesser players (and win but not as big margin) being aggressive with short balls?
yeah, that's one way to do it... that's why it's important to play 1/3 lower, 1/3 same, 1/3 better - skilled players
but the fact that you mentioned "win" tells me you're focusing more on the outcome than the process.
ideally you practice should look something like this (ie. with practice in between)
* played my A game: won 3,3
* played my B game: lost in a 3rd set tb
* played my B game: won in a 3rd set tb
* played my C game: lost badly 1,1
* played B&C: lost 3,3
* played my A game (with more elements of B&C): won 2,2

for you, your A game, might be grind
B game: attack from inside the baseline
C game: attack from "sitters" outside the baseline
etc...

in the example above... for me:
A: rally, run around fh, attack bh, transition to net, finish at net
B: s&v
C: attack fh exclusively

but you can modify based on whatever element you're working on...
 

zill

Legend
yeah, that's one way to do it... that's why it's important to play 1/3 lower, 1/3 same, 1/3 better - skilled players
but the fact that you mentioned "win" tells me you're focusing more on the outcome than the process.
ideally you practice should look something like this (ie. with practice in between)
* played my A game: won 3,3
* played my B game: lost in a 3rd set tb
* played my B game: won in a 3rd set tb
* played my C game: lost badly 1,1
* played B&C: lost 3,3
* played my A game (with more elements of B&C): won 2,2

for you, your A game, might be grind
B game: attack from inside the baseline
C game: attack from "sitters" outside the baseline
etc...

in the example above... for me:
A: rally, run around fh, attack bh, transition to net, finish at net
B: s&v
C: attack fh exclusively

but you can modify based on whatever element you're working on...

What game should I use on players better than me A or B?
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
When things get tight, i always go for depth rather than placement. And take it from there. The topspin will definitely make it easier.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
I tend to hit loopy shot when tight. It's not just the shots, I notice that the knee bend becomes shallow, feet slow and hands feel heavy. Also stop watching the ball fully. Probably not breathing right either.
The common pitfall here is to revamp and change your plan a to plan b and c. If plan a is not working, plan b will do even worse.
So focus on smaller things and the stroke will reappear - remind yourself to take deep breaths , watch the spin of the ball, knee bend and visualize targets. It works for me whenever I'm able to recognize that I'm tight and need to relax. Problem is that sometime it takes couple or more games to correct myself and already late in the set.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Your first issue is that you put topspin and height over the net in the same bracket.

Its not the same.

You can hit a high arc bunt with no spin, and you can hit a more straight trajectory with alot of topspin.

These are the keys:

1.Racquet path (angle of the swing)
2.Racquet face angle at contact
3.Speed of upward momentum of the racquet

Assuming ur racquet face is at least perpendicular at contact

More straight forward angle of swing = More pace and less spin
More upwards angle of swing = Less pace and more spin

After that if you manipulate racquet angle at contact

More closed the angle = less pace, lower trajectory, more spin

Then you can add more spin with some other factors that provide more upward momentum to brush the ball up and create spin, such as:

More pronation (racquet rolling around like windshield wiper) = adds more upward momentum and spin

More bend down and push up with ur legs = adds more upward momentum and spin

And some other minor things aswell

So all in all you can manipulate alot of thungs to hit alot of shots

You can hit a ball 1feet over the net with no topspin or heavy topspin.

You can hit a ball 5feet over the net with almost no topspin or heavy topspin.
 

zill

Legend
Your first issue is that you put topspin and height over the net in the same bracket.

Its not the same.

You can hit a high arc bunt with no spin, and you can hit a more straight trajectory with alot of topspin.

These are the keys:

1.Racquet path (angle of the swing)
2.Racquet face angle at contact
3.Speed of upward momentum of the racquet

Assuming ur racquet face is at least perpendicular at contact

More straight forward angle of swing = More pace and less spin
More upwards angle of swing = Less pace and more spin

After that if you manipulate racquet angle at contact

More closed the angle = less pace, lower trajectory, more spin

Then you can add more spin with some other factors that provide more upward momentum to brush the ball up and create spin, such as:

More pronation (racquet rolling around like windshield wiper) = adds more upward momentum and spin

More bend down and push up with ur legs = adds more upward momentum and spin

And some other minor things aswell

So all in all you can manipulate alot of thungs to hit alot of shots

You can hit a ball 1feet over the net with no topspin or heavy topspin.

You can hit a ball 5feet over the net with almost no topspin or heavy topspin.

How do you hit a low net clearance shot with a lot of topspin that is also deep?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
How do you hit a low net clearance shot with a lot of topspin that is also deep?

Swingpath should be slightly low to high but still not much, so you create some spin but also alot of pace and direct energy.
Racquet face should be closed slightly to create a lower trajectory (bit lower over the net).
And you should use alot of windshield wiper movement to create alot of spin (forearm pronation).

Use just the right combination of these 3 factors so you have low clearance as you wish and enough pace/spin combo so that you can swing with 100% RHS and the ball won't go long but dip into the court.

Basically the secret is you close your racquet face more so the trajectory of the ball will be lower and you can brush even more upward and since ur face is slightly closed the ball will still go fairly low even when brushing upward, and then add even more spin by windshield wiper = a low trajectory ball with alot of spin.

But you reach a certain point where if you close it more and brush it up more that you lose too much pace and the ball won't have enough pace behind it, thats why I said close ur racquet slightly and brush upwards but still fairly towards the target so not extreme upward swing.

tetetetet.jpg


As you can see the more you close ur racquet face the more upward you need to swing to produce the same ball trajectory (height), otherwise the ball will go down into the ground, but the more upward you swing the more spin you will get.
So you need to close it just enough so you can stil get good pace and a nice low trajectory and you will get alot more spin than if your racquet face was perpendicular.
But the more you close ur face the more upwards you need to swing and the more pace you lose.
And also you reach a point where you close it so much that no matter how much upward you swing you wont even clear the net, this pic is just for reference, if you actually had it closed like the 3rd pic you would hit the ground.

If your racquet face would be perpendicualr and you swung like 2nd pic you would get a higher arc over the net, but with ur racquet face closed enough and the swingpath being the same you get a lower net clearance with the same if not bigger spin, so thats the secret you are looking for.
 
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ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Your first issue is that you put topspin and height over the net in the same bracket.

Its not the same.

You can hit a high arc bunt with no spin, and you can hit a more straight trajectory with alot of topspin.
The first part about high arc bunt with no spin, I get it. But how do you it a "more" straight trajectory with a lot of topspin?
I guess my more straight here you mean more straight than the high arc right? Not straight like an arrow straight.
Maybe topspin and net clearance are not in the same bracket, but I bet they have very high correlation.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
The first part about high arc bunt with no spin, I get it. But how do you it a "more" straight trajectory with a lot of topspin?
I guess my more straight here you mean more straight than the high arc right? Not straight like an arrow straight.
Maybe topspin and net clearance are not in the same bracket, but I bet they have very high correlation.

Ive already explained above your last post.

Theres a reason why Federer has a 5-12degrees closed racquet face (he closes it more on lower trajectory shots opposed to higher arc shots) and also why he can hit slightly above net with alot of pace and the ball dips down before the baseline as if the ball was made from steel and the magnet pulled it down.
 

zill

Legend
Ive already explained above your last post.

Theres a reason why Federer has a 5-12degrees closed racquet face (he closes it more on lower trajectory shots opposed to higher arc shots) and also why he can hit slightly above net with alot of pace and the ball dips down before the baseline as if the ball was made from steel and the magnet pulled it down.

Is that verified or just a visual effect? My coach says the racquet face should be straight at contact with ball.
 

zill

Legend
Ive already explained above your last post.

Theres a reason why Federer has a 5-12degrees closed racquet face (he closes it more on lower trajectory shots opposed to higher arc shots) and also why he can hit slightly above net with alot of pace and the ball dips down before the baseline as if the ball was made from steel and the magnet pulled it down.

Just saw some of Roger’s forehand at contact and indeed it’s slighl closed! How about Thiem’s forehand? Slightly closed?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Is that verified or just a visual effect? My coach says the racquet face should be straight at contact with ball.

Use some common sense, racquet facing down = ball going down... unless you swing up..hence=more spin?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Just saw some of Roger’s forehand at contact and indeed it’s slighl closed! How about Thiem’s forehand? Slightly closed?

You are overthinking it, it depends on the swing and what someone wants to hit, racquet angle can vary quite a bit, and its more of a feel, don't think any of those players are thinking about closing it by 3 degres or opening it by 3 degres, its more of a feel thing, and in your mind it probably feels like you close it a ton but you actually only do it slightly, you just need to see the feedback and the shot you hit and experiment a bit in order to understand how it has to feel to produce the shot you want.
 

zill

Legend
You are overthinking it, it depends on the swing and what someone wants to hit, racquet angle can vary quite a bit, and its more of a feel, don't think any of those players are thinking about closing it by 3 degres or opening it by 3 degres, its more of a feel thing, and in your mind it probably feels like you close it a ton but you actually only do it slightly, you just need to see the feedback and the shot you hit and experiment a bit in order to understand how it has to feel to produce the shot you want.

I guess same goes for the backhand? I have a long swinging backhand like Guga’s but the ball often sails long when I swing fully. Will try to close the racquet face on the backhand side as well.
 

zill

Legend
You are overthinking it, it depends on the swing and what someone wants to hit, racquet angle can vary quite a bit, and its more of a feel, don't think any of those players are thinking about closing it by 3 degres or opening it by 3 degres, its more of a feel thing, and in your mind it probably feels like you close it a ton but you actually only do it slightly, you just need to see the feedback and the shot you hit and experiment a bit in order to understand how it has to feel to produce the shot you want.

I prefer to contact flat or at least flat in my mind but also lean forwards. I find that leaning forwards automatically makes my trajectory flatter. Thing with consciousnesly hitting at an angle is it open up a can of worms. How much angle?? Feels akward as well as my wrist after contact is slanting tje racquet face
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
yeah, i hear ya... grinding loopy deep balls is/was my goto strat,... but against better comp, they attack that ball, gaining the initiative.
problem is, that against folks my level (and lower), it's extremely effective... basically outlast them until they make a mistake.

big thing i notice against better players... is that as soon as i hit a single short ball, they attack, and start taking the initiative, come to net, finish....
when i started doing that,
i'd miss the aggressive "setup shot"
i'd miss the transition shot
etc...
realized i just need to work on those shots more (ie. the aggressive shot, when i'm inside the baseline, the transition shots at net, etc...)
i'm so used to just hitting the neutral rally ball from a ft behind the baseline, and 2-3ft left/right of the center hash... that once i "earned the short ball", i didn't have enough reps in the other strokes to consistently executue them in a match.

caveat: once you start practicing these strokes, and attemtpting to go on the offence, you'll find that in the short term, you'll lose to folks you used to beat through attrition... which is a tough pill to swallow (for anyone) if their ego is any way tied to their tennis (no one here, right?!)
Ive found this as well. Great advice!
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
Ive already explained above your last post.

Theres a reason why Federer has a 5-12degrees closed racquet face (he closes it more on lower trajectory shots opposed to higher arc shots) and also why he can hit slightly above net with alot of pace and the ball dips down before the baseline as if the ball was made from steel and the magnet pulled it down.

Lower trajectory shots as opposed to higher arc shots: can you explain what you mean by this?

I.e. he returns a low flat shot, how closed is his racquet?
He returns a ball above shoulder height, how closed is his racquet now?
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Ive already explained above your last post.

Theres a reason why Federer has a 5-12degrees closed racquet face (he closes it more on lower trajectory shots opposed to higher arc shots) and also why he can hit slightly above net with alot of pace and the ball dips down before the baseline as if the ball was made from steel and the magnet pulled it down.
That is very advanced stuff. I only know 2 or 3 people that hit forehand like that constantly. All had coaching from very young.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Lower trajectory shots as opposed to higher arc shots: can you explain what you mean by this?

I.e. he returns a low flat shot, how closed is his racquet?
He returns a ball above shoulder height, how closed is his racquet now?

Low trajectory means ball goes 1feet over the net (example), high arc means it goes lets say 4feet over the net.

And ive already said you should concentrate on having a feeling of closing the racquet slightly more if you want a lower trajectory, more so by feel, but I can already see OP is not quite getting this so im not sure if he can really work on this concept.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
That is very advanced stuff. I only know 2 or 3 people that hit forehand like that constantly. All had coaching from very young.

Yeah its not easy but its good to work on it amd work on the feel of it, I think the easiest shots to get a feel from this are short putaway shots, there you can close the racquet more and swing through, then you can try experimenting similar stuff at the baseline but it will be much harder to get it right. You can more easily do too much or too less of something and hit the ball into the net or so. But even without doing these advanced stuff, hitting the ball low over the net is always a risk to misshit it a bit, a 4feet net clearance is much more safe.
 
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StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
Low trajectory means ball goes 1feet over the net (example), high arc means it goes lets say 4feet over the net.

And ive already said you should concentrate on having a feeling of closing the racquet slightly more if you want a lower trajectory, more so by feel, but I can already see OP is not quite getting this so im not sure if he can really work on this concept.
If you close the racquet more though, all other factors being equal wont the ball be more likely to hit the net or fall short too? It sounds to me that closing the racquet generates more spin (straight down into the court, dropping down) but you have to swing harder to get the same depth. So a closed racquet face thus keeps the ball in play when you swing hard

Not closed (parrallel face to net) gets height and depth with barely swinging hard at all. Imo this is why back hands are typically flatter, since its easier to generate depth with a parralel face and on the bh side you cant just easily ramp up the swingspeed like on the fh
 

FiReFTW

Legend
If you close the racquet more though, all other factors being equal wont the ball be more likely to hit the net or fall short too? It sounds to me that closing the racquet generates more spin (straight down into the court, dropping down) but you have to swing harder to get the same depth. So a closed racquet face thus keeps the ball in play when you swing hard

Not closed (parrallel face to net) gets height and depth with barely swinging hard at all. Imo this is why back hands are typically flatter, since its easier to generate depth with a parralel face and on the bh side you cant just easily ramp up the swingspeed like on the fh

Yes the more you close the racquet the more downward the ball flies because the strings are facimg more down hence you have to swing more upward to get for example a 1ft clearance when if you had a perpendicular face u would have to swing more straight and direct to get the same 1ft clearance.

So you will get more spin with closing it more, but of course you have to swing faster because you add spin but ur pace will be less with the same swing speed as before since more energy is going into spinning the ball instead of directly into the pace.

Thats why how much you can close the racquet face depends on how fast you can swing it to get it deep with such an amount of spin that it produces as you close it more, and thats why you cant get as much spin with a low clearance as federer because he can swing the racquet much faster than you.

So maybe you can get 1300rpm spin while hitting fast enough to get the ball deep with a low trajectory while he can do 3000rpm.

If you want to hit low with alot of spin just concentrate on how you hit short balls, usually you close ur racquet face more, you windshield wiper more, and you swing fast, but all of the 2 factors before add alot of that fast swing into spin and less into pace so you get a low hit with alot of spin that wont go deep.
From the baseline you either have to be able to swing much faster with the same everything or just close the racquet face slightly less and/or windshield wiper slightly less to take some spin and add some pace if ur swing speed is not fast enough to get it deep.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Yeah its not easy but its good to work on it amd work on the feel of it, I think the easiest shots to get a feel from this are short putaway shots, there you can close the racquet more and swing through, then you can try experimenting similar stuff at the baseline but it will be much harder to get it right. You can more easily do too much or too less of something and hit the ball into the net or so. But even without doing these advanced stuff, hitting the ball low over the net is always a risk to misshit it a bit, a 4feet net clearance is much more safe.
Approach shots are hard enough already. I rather practice this as cooperative hitting in the middle of court. Maybe i can do 1 or 2 out of 10 shots. still shots tend to lack in depth.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Yes basically the tighter the game the more net clearance I go which means lopping the ball up but also making sure it goes deep. Problem is that doesn't trouble experienced players!

One of my coaches (plays Challengers) suggested to me that hitting deep is the key. Very rarely does he tell me to add more top spin (and I hit flat), but to hit deep.
Disclaimer: I'm probably not even 4.0.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
like off your back foot type topspin?
the more aggressive i hit, the more topspin i hope i'm hitting (ie. by virtue of increasing my rhs)... just gettting the ratio right is the key...

so i'm gonna guess you mean, you tend not to play aggressively when you know you should... play points where if the ball lands somewhere such that you have 1 or both feet inside the baseline, you must attack it, no matter what...

Yeah but, wouldn't you say that you might be increasing side-spin, rather then top spin if you are hitting flat?

And I love your later sentence about attacking, although I heard it differently from my girl coach a few years ago, as to the deciding factor (having your feet inside the baseline) when to change direction of the ball while in a cc rally and go FH DTL instead.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
If your racquet face would be perpendicualr and you swung like 2nd pic you would get a higher arc over the net, but with ur racquet face closed enough and the swingpath being the same you get a lower net clearance with the same if not bigger spin, so thats the secret you are looking for.

Or you grow taller? j/k
 
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Deleted member 23235

Guest
I beg to differ, you want to make it random against better players and play conservatively against lower rated opponents according to a strategy called "Play....chess like a tiger"

sure if “random” is your A game, otherwise you’re putting your lower-%-game vs their higher-%-game.

no point in throwing in droppers to “mix it up” if you don’t own the shot.
 
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