How to load back leg in platform stance

Duckman

New User
Hi,

I am struggling with the proper balance on my serve from platform stance. I start with weight on left foot, rock backwards and drop arms, then rock forwards and toss.

However, the rocking forwards puts most of my weight onto front foot, and I cannot load my back foot.

Here's a video of this horrid serve, can someone please help and see how I can fix this?

Thanks!

 
It looks like you have weight transfer more characteristic of pinpoint serve, you just don't move your right foot forward.

For platform serve, you usually have less of backward/forward weight shifting and you set yourself to jump up, not forward.

With my (platform) serve, the only thing I do load my back leg at ball toss is to lift my left forefoot.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Hi,

I am struggling with the proper balance on my serve from platform stance. I start with weight on left foot, rock backwards and drop arms, then rock forwards and toss.

However, the rocking forwards puts most of my weight onto front foot, and I cannot load my back foot.

Here's a video of this horrid serve, can someone please help and see how I can fix this?

Thanks!
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
You are sort of missing the advantage of using platform, which is that it aligns your balance so that you can easily shift your weight forward and push off forward into the court.

When you rock forward, you want to shift your weight all the way out into the court, so that your left hip and center of mass is in front of your front foot, not over it. Your back foot should not be loaded - it is just touching the ground still to help you maintain your balance.

The evidence of a good weight transfer when you jump is that your front foot should land way out inside the court, directly toward your target from where it started.
In your video, sometimes you land to the left, and sometimes you land a few inches inside the court. Try to make your front foot land 2 feet inside the court, and you will notice a big increase in power.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Maybe I should just change stance then!
No need to change stance. Try fixing your platform stance first. You are uncoiling waaaay too early. Your hips are already facing the net post during your trophy phase as you are starting your racket drop. Even your upper torso is uncoiled too much at that point.

Try starting with your left foot angled more. (Some top players even start with it parallel to the baseline). Back foot parallel to the baseline (or angled backwards slightly). You should be coiling more, not uncoiling as you get to your trophy phase.

If you are going to use a rocking motion, use a less dramatic one. Take a look at Jeff Salzenstein. He starts with his weight closer to even, perhaps just a little forward, at start of his motion. He shifts his weight back a bit when his arms drop but rocks back forward for his trophy. Like many top servers, his weight distribution is about 50/50 or 60/40 (front/back) at the trophy. Yours is more like 95/05.

Try practicing this motion without a ball for a while. I'd do maybe dozens, if not more, shadow swings before you try it with a ball. Take a look at some of Jeff's serve vids like this one:

 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Take I looked at Roger. He starts with his weight forward and rocks back on the down phase of his arms. As he approaches his trophy, his weight is more evenly balanced. And he is coiling (not uncoiling). It is prior to the trophy where he is getting most of his back leg drive. During the trophy phase he continues to shift forward. As he starts his racket drop, he might be about 70/30.

 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You are only falling into the court.
Bend those knees and drive UP and forward into the court.
You cannot jump without bending your knees.
 

Dragy

Legend
What @SystemicAnomaly wrote - don’t rotate as you shift forward, push your left hip (the side) into the court, keep your right hip behind. Currently it comes around. Stay fully cooked and sideways until you actually start the swinging motion.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
You are sort of missing the advantage of using platform, which is that it aligns your balance so that you can easily shift your weight forward and push off forward into the court.

When you rock forward, you want to shift your weight all the way out into the court, so that your left hip and center of mass is in front of your front foot, not over it. Your back foot should not be loaded - it is just touching the ground still to help you maintain your balance.

The evidence of a good weight transfer when you jump is that your front foot should land way out inside the court, directly toward your target from where it started.
In your video, sometimes you land to the left, and sometimes you land a few inches inside the court. Try to make your front foot land 2 feet inside the court, and you will notice a big increase in power.

Bruh.

No.

Not 2 feet inside the court.

Not with platform.

J
 

Duckman

New User
What @SystemicAnomaly wrote - don’t rotate as you shift forward, push your left hip (the side) into the court, keep your right hip behind. Currently it comes around. Stay fully cooked and sideways until you actually start the swinging motion.

So here's my confusion - if i push my left hip into the the court, the center of gravity is over my left foot ( or even pushed past it) so that I am unable to maintain weight on my right foot, and my whole body just collapses forward...

So qn is, how do you maintain that balance to keep weight on back foot, while still shifting forwards?

I think I might be fundamentally misunderstanding something
 

Duckman

New User
One other question I have relating to the serve. I tend to have a very vertical swing, where on contact, my racquet, hand elbow are in a vertical line and my shoulders are horizontal and square to the court.

I know this is completely wrong, and i d'nt know why that position is so ingrained in my head, but any one else have that issue? And how did you fix it?
 

Dragy

Legend
So here's my confusion - if i push my left hip into the the court, the center of gravity is over my left foot ( or even pushed past it) so that I am unable to maintain weight on my right foot, and my whole body just collapses forward...

So qn is, how do you maintain that balance to keep weight on back foot, while still shifting forwards?

I think I might be fundamentally misunderstanding something
Can you distribute the weight 70:30 and not fall over the front leg? Center of gravity shouldn't pass forward of left foot, weight transfer should be moderate - what you need is to set up position where your leg drive will push you forward and up instead of straight up.
Also, as told, stay coiled until leg drive starts. By this moment the camera shouldn't see your back:
NEMgHmv.png

One other question I have relating to the serve. I tend to have a very vertical swing, where on contact, my racquet, hand elbow are in a vertical line and my shoulders are horizontal and square to the court.

I know this is completely wrong, and i d'nt know why that position is so ingrained in my head, but any one else have that issue? And how did you fix it?
You fall under the ball with your excessive forward weight shift and follow this by swinging too much up. Stop falling over the left foot, and you'll have nice trajectory for the swing.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
So here's my confusion - if i push my left hip into the the court, the center of gravity is over my left foot ( or even pushed past it) so that I am unable to maintain weight on my right foot, and my whole body just collapses forward...

So qn is, how do you maintain that balance to keep weight on back foot, while still shifting forwards?

I think I might be fundamentally misunderstanding something
You don't have to do that now. You can add that later. There are many pros that don't do this. Once step at a time.
 

Duckman

New User
Can you distribute the weight 70:30 and not fall over the front leg? Center of gravity shouldn't pass forward of left foot, weight transfer should be moderate - what you need is to set up position where your leg drive will push you forward and up instead of straight up.
Also, as told, stay coiled until leg drive starts. By this moment the camera shouldn't see your back:
You fall under the ball with your excessive forward weight shift and follow this by swinging too much up. Stop falling over the left foot, and you'll have nice trajectory for the swing.

I tried staying more coiled last night, took video and looks same. WIll have to try again later this week. I understand the falling under the ball part now that makes a lot of sense! thanks!
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
So here's my confusion - if i push my left hip into the the court, the center of gravity is over my left foot ( or even pushed past it) so that I am unable to maintain weight on my right foot, and my whole body just collapses forward...

So qn is, how do you maintain that balance to keep weight on back foot, while still shifting forwards?

I think I might be fundamentally misunderstanding something

You aren't supposed to push your hips into the court, it happens naturally when you stretch your front side and tilt your shoulders in order to keep your weight centered between your feet, otherwise you would fall over backwards.

J
 

Duckman

New User
You aren't supposed to push your hips into the court, it happens naturally when you stretch your front side and tilt your shoulders in order to keep your weight centered between your feet, otherwise you would fall over backwards.
Thank u for clarifying this. I didn't realize that the hips pushing forward is a counterbalance to the shoulders tilted down! It is starting to make a lot more sense to me now.
 
I'd just point out that S&V platform servers are different from baseline platform servers.

Crudely, the difference between Sampras/Rafter and Federer/Djokovic.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Heels down at trophy position.
Huh? 'splain this.

At the trophy position, assuming the knees are bent, the server should be on the balls of both feet -- heels off the ground. However, the OP doesn't have much knee bend and his front foot is nearly flat on the ground while his back foot is "en pointe" (Michael Jackson style).
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I'd just point out that S&V platform servers are different from baseline platform servers.

Crudely, the difference between Sampras/Rafter and Federer/Djokovic.
I dunno man. The further my front land lands inside the court, the bigger my serve. This guy serves pretty well for a baseliner. His front foot lands 4 feet inside the court.
 
A technicality. I think it’s a great model for how to load your center of mass out in front of your front foot, regardless of how you start your motion. He really leans that hip out there.

I think there's a distinction between pinpoint and platform when it comes to "weight transfer" and forward movement. Just compare the differences between Kyrgios and Federer.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I think there's a distinction between pinpoint and platform when it comes to "weight transfer" and forward movement. Just compare the differences between Kyrgios and Federer.
I disagree. The Kyrgios/Federer comparison is just cherry picked. There is no reason why a platform server shouldn’t transfer weight forward just as well as a pinpoint server. Even an old geezer can do it:
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
I tried staying more coiled last night, took video and looks same. WIll have to try again later this week. I understand the falling under the ball part now that makes a lot of sense! thanks!

Have you seen that drill, when you serve with most (if not) of your weight on the back foot?

I tried it a bit myself and it seems to help.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Huh? 'splain this.

At the trophy position, assuming the knees are bent, the server should be on the balls of both feet -- heels off the ground. However, the OP doesn't have much knee bend and his front foot is nearly flat on the ground while his back foot is "en pointe" (Michael Jackson style).

Yeah, you're right...knees bent lifts heels.
But like running, as knee starts upward drive and straightens, does heel touch for pushoff?
 

Dragy

Legend
I disagree. The Kyrgios/Federer comparison is just cherry picked. There is no reason why a platform server shouldn’t transfer weight forward just as well as a pinpoint server. Even an old geezer can do it:
You serve in a volleyball manner here - jump and hit the ball. You could work on better sequencing, where you have bottom of the racquet drop by the moment you leave the ground, and contact on the way up/close to highest point, not hovering somewhere in the air about to fall back on the floor. That would give you better RHS for either faster or spinner serves.
And related to discussion, your deep landing is product of your jumping effort - not of optimal leg drive for better serving.
That’s how I see it.
 

Duckman

New User
You serve in a volleyball manner here - jump and hit the ball. You could work on better sequencing, where you have bottom of the racquet drop by the moment you leave the ground, and contact on the way up/close to highest point, not hovering somewhere in the air about to fall back on the floor. That would give you better RHS for either faster or spinner serves.
And related to discussion, your deep landing is product of your jumping effort - not of optimal leg drive for better serving.
That’s how I see it.
Dragy - do you also play volleyball? Reason I ask is because I am mainly a volleyball (recreational) player, not a very good one, and maybe I am also ingrained with Jump, then hit!

But from looking at slo of volleyball, it seems like at the highest levels, the pros are also coiling while mid jump, and only aftewards do they fully unload into contact - is that somehwo the same?
 

Dragy

Legend
Dragy - do you also play volleyball? Reason I ask is because I am mainly a volleyball (recreational) player, not a very good one, and maybe I am also ingrained with Jump, then hit!

But from looking at slo of volleyball, it seems like at the highest levels, the pros are also coiling while mid jump, and only aftewards do they fully unload into contact - is that somehwo the same?
I've been playing vb at mediocre rec level for some time. My brother plays closer to high-level semi-pros. Doesn't make me a vb expert :-D Still it's pretty evident and known, that while volleyball players try to get max height to spike, tennis serve only goes for "as high as you can get without compromising the swing quality and RHS". Where RHS is product of best throwing action, which is optimally achieved using leg drive to max rather than try to swing from hovering state.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I've been playing vb at mediocre rec level for some time. My brother plays closer to high-level semi-pros. Doesn't make me a vb expert :-D Still it's pretty evident and known, that while volleyball players try to get max height to spike, tennis serve only goes for "as high as you can get without compromising the swing quality and RHS". Where RHS is product of best throwing action, which is optimally achieved using leg drive to max rather than try to swing from hovering state.
I would like to point out that I am not hovering. Rather, I am hurling my center of mass forward through the air. If the horizontal velocity of my center of mass is 10mph (the exact velocity can be easily calculated by dividing distance traveled in the air by the time), that will result in about 15mph extra ball velocity than can be achieved by ‘leg drive’ alone without forward center-of-mass launch. It’s the reason baseball outfielders hurl their entire bodies forward through the air when they want to throw with maximum velocity to throw a runner out at home plate. Simple physics.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I would like to point out that I am not hovering. Rather, I am hurling my center of mass forward through the air. If the horizontal velocity of my center of mass is 10mph (the exact velocity can be easily calculated by dividing distance traveled in the air by the time), that will result in about 15mph extra ball velocity than can be achieved by ‘leg drive’ alone without forward center-of-mass launch. It’s the reason baseball outfielders hurl their entire bodies forward through the air when they want to throw with maximum velocity to throw a runner out at home plate. Simple physics.

I know you don't want to torque about it and I don't know if I should be the one to brake it to you but the objective is to get the racquet to go fast.

Show me an outfielder throwing the ball while in mid air jumping forward.

J
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
I would like to point out that I am not hovering. Rather, I am hurling my center of mass forward through the air. If the horizontal velocity of my center of mass is 10mph (the exact velocity can be easily calculated by dividing distance traveled in the air by the time), that will result in about 15mph extra ball velocity than can be achieved by ‘leg drive’ alone without forward center-of-mass launch. It’s the reason baseball outfielders hurl their entire bodies forward through the air when they want to throw with maximum velocity to throw a runner out at home plate. Simple physics.

Traveljam you are a good player and for what is worth your serve is better than mine, but I'm in total agreement with Dragy on this specific advice he is giving you:
Still it's pretty evident and known, that while volleyball players try to get max height to spike, tennis serve only goes for "as high as you can get without compromising the swing quality and RHS". Where RHS is product of best throwing action, which is optimally achieved using leg drive to max rather than try to swing from hovering state.

For example if you go frame by frame in your vid, you are not at "bottom of the racquet drop by the moment you leave the ground".
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
I know you don't want to torque about it and I don't know if I should be the one to brake it to you but the objective is to get the racquet to go fast.

Show me an outfielder throwing the ball while in mid air jumping forward.

J
My point about the outfielders is that they throw after getting a running start to get the body’s center of mass moving forward as fast as possible.

In tennis, in addition to the benefit of getting your center of mass traveling fast, there is another big reason why it is advantageous to jump forward into the air and make contact as far inside the court as possible on the serve.

If the serve contact point is 5 feet inside the court, instead of 2 feet inside the court. Then the ball has to travel 3 feet less in the air. For a big serve, if you do the calculation this adds an equivalent of roughly 7mph, from both the shorter distance to travel and from less time for air drag to slow the ball.
 
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