How to load back leg in platform stance

[Slowtwitcher]

Tennis and volleyball are the sports where the "pitch" is better if launched from elevated height.

In baseball or cricket the height of the target is set. When tennis players/volleyball players are jumping to "pitch", they're trading off speed for height. The only reason to jump is to gain height.

 

[Duckman]

Put LESS weight on front foot.

Yep absolutely I m trying to fix this It is a very subconscious movement for me, tossing and shifting the weight. I've done that motion too many times and it is super hard to break the habit. But I am working on it, and will post new video when I have fixed it! thanks you!

 

[LeeD]

I know you already knew my answer, but sometimes, going back to basics can cure a developed problem.
Sink low with both feet keeping weight very evenly distributed.

 

[travlerajm]

Tennis and volleyball are the sports where the "pitch" is better if launched from elevated height.

In baseball or cricket the height of the target is set. When tennis players/volleyball players are jumping to "pitch", they're trading off speed for height. The only reason to jump is to gain height.

1. Elevation matters.
2. Contact closer to net matters.
3. Velocity of center of mass matters.

All of these reasons make a jump serve the way to go if your goal is for your serve to bounce up 6 feet high on the back fence and you are shorter than 6’ tall.

 

[Fintft]

Put LESS weight on front foot.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/how-to-load-back-leg-in-platform-stance.685679/post-14867825

 

[Slowtwitcher]

1. Elevation matters.
2. Contact closer to net matters.
3. Velocity of center of mass matters.

All of these reasons make a jump serve the way to go if your goal is for your serve to bounce up 6 feet high on the back fence and you are shorter than 6’ tall.

See if you can tell what matters most from this video:

 

[Fintft]

See if you can tell what matters most from this video:

Lol while I agree with you and without going frame by frame it seems to me that nobody has the same elevation as Raonic!
And for sure not the same/proper extension at contact.

 

[travlerajm]

See if you can tell what matters most from this video:

Having arms as long as an orangutan matters.

 

[Fintft]

Having arms as long as an orangutan matters.

He extends his racquet arm at contact, can you say the same about the juniors?
Plus his rhytm, with the leg drive is impecable.

 

[Dragy]

1. Elevation matters.
2. Contact closer to net matters.
3. Velocity of center of mass matters.

All of these reasons make a jump serve the way to go if your goal is for your serve to bounce up 6 feet high on the back fence and you are shorter than 6’ tall.

Jump serve as a separate concept is interesting to research, no doubt. Getting better look on the service box and higher/deeper contact to produce respectively higher bounce are interesting options. If only there were no limitations on running start...
However, "driving" serve (were leg drive is used straight to load the shoulder for immediate action, providing some contact point lift as a bonus, not primary objective), which is dominantly used by pro players, has couple of major advantages in tennis:
- Higher RHS;
- Better repeatability and precision.

 

[Dragy]

I couldn't stand but post this pic... Justified by being a "trophy pose" for volleyball jump serve - uncoiling up to start:

 

[travlerajm]

Jump serve as a separate concept is interesting to research, no doubt. Getting better look on the service box and higher/deeper contact to produce respectively higher bounce are interesting options. If only there were no limitations on running start...
However, "driving" serve (were leg drive is used straight to load the shoulder for immediate action, providing some contact point lift as a bonus, not primary objective), which is dominantly used by pro players, has couple of major advantages in tennis:
- Higher RHS;
- Better repeatability and precision.

I agree on the better repeatability and precision.
Disagree on the higher RHS.

Sam Groth jumps pretty far forward before contact, and he held the world record for fastest serve. And even this sub-6’ guy - when he’s not dinking it - is still capable of generating some pretty decent ball speed and bounce into the fence with a junior length racquet and no leg drive:

 

[Dragy]

I agree on the better repeatability and precision.
Disagree on the higher RHS.

Sam Groth jumps pretty far forward before contact, and he held the world record for fastest serve. And even this sub-6’ guy - when he’s not dinking it - is still capable of generating some pretty decent ball speed and bounce into the fence with a junior length racquet and no leg drive:

Sam Groth doesn't jump-and-hit in a volleyball manner, his timing is 100% conventional. It's his powerful leg drive carrying him far in (as well as pinpoint stance contributing).

Now what your video displays seems a bit delayed, with typical volleyball leg/body action. Which confirms you use much of folding action to power your shoulder-over-shoulder move rather than leg drive.

Don't get me wrong, your serves are good. And whether you get better results with deffirent execution is up to you to test. But suggesting such type of serve for wide audience as preferable - makes me disagree.

 

[travlerajm]

Sam Groth doesn't jump-and-hit in a volleyball manner, his timing is 100% conventional. It's his powerful leg drive carrying him far in (as well as pinpoint stance contributing).

Now what your video displays seems a bit delayed, with typical volleyball leg/body action. Which confirms you use much of folding action to power your shoulder-over-shoulder move rather than leg drive.

Don't get me wrong, your serves are good. And whether you get better results with deffirent execution is up to you to test. But suggesting such type of serve for wide audience as preferable - makes me disagree.

I am going to save your post. Your 2-frame head-to-head comparison makes my serve motion look kinda like Sam Groth’s!

 

[Fintft]

I am going to save your post. Your 2-frame head-to-head comparison makes my serve motion look kinda like Sam Groth’s!

OP, you may want to refer back to Dragy's original advice b/c, again, if you go frame by frame in your vid, you are not at "bottom of the racquet drop by the moment you leave the ground".

 

[travlerajm]

OP, you may want to refer back to Dragy's original advice b/c, again, if you go frame by frame in your vid, you are not at "bottom of the racquet drop by the moment you leave the ground".

But this is the future:

 

[J011yroger]

But this is the future:

That wasn't even the past.

J

 

[Deleted member 771407]

Tennis and volleyball are the sports where the "pitch" is better if launched from elevated height.

In baseball or cricket the height of the target is set. When tennis players/volleyball players are jumping to "pitch", they're trading off speed for height. The only reason to jump is to gain height.

No you don't give up power for height in tennis. Even in volleyball (I played volleyball a long time ago), you're not giving up any pace by jumping, the forward momentum of your body helps to hit with more pace with a spike serve.
In tennis we jump up AND forward, you're not giving up any forward momentum simply because your legs and butt are physiologically built to jump up, you don't lose power by jumping but you actually gain a lot of power, from the horizontal portion of your jump. The height advantage comes for free.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

That wasn't even the past.

J

To be honest, for perfectly coordinated demi-gods, it does seem like the next logical step. But it's too much information for a human brain to hit that perfectly at full power, and too much room to screw up. The perfect player would hit mostly driving volley, and end half the points with perfectly hit drop shots. Thankfully we are only human.

Not to mention that the perfect serve wouldn't look like that, it would need some running before the toss to gain forward momentum and pace like in volleyball.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

No you don't give up power for height in tennis. Even in volleyball (I played volleyball a long time ago), you're not giving up any pace by jumping, the forward momentum of your body helps to hit with more pace with a spike serve.
In tennis we jump up AND forward, you're not giving up any forward momentum simply because your legs and butt are physiologically built to jump up, you don't lose power by jumping but you actually gain a lot of power, from the horizontal portion of your jump. The height advantage comes for free.

It's just physics, I'm sorry you don't understand it.

 

[Dragy]

To be honest, for perfectly coordinated demi-gods, it does seem like the next logical step. But it's too much information for a human brain to hit that perfectly at full power, and too much room to screw up. The perfect player would hit mostly driving volley, and end half the points with perfectly hit drop shots. Thankfully we are only human.

Not to mention that the perfect serve wouldn't look like that, it would need some running before the toss to gain forward momentum and pace like in volleyball.

It would be legit if running start was allowed - what actually happens in VB, momentum gained by running, not by jump itself. What Battistone does produce less power than what Thiem does, or Raonic, or whatever top server.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

It's just physics, I'm sorry you don't understand it.

Very compelling argument, if you're a 10 yo kid that is. I'd love to know what your background in physics is.
You use words you don't even understand I'm afraid. You don't give up power by pushing on your legs to jump, it's just physics.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

It would be legit if running start was allowed - what actually happens in VB, momentum gained by running, not by jump itself. What Battistone does produce less power than what Thiem does, or Raonic, or whatever top server.

I didn't know running was not allowed during the serve. I guess that explains why nobody tried it.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

I'd love to know what your background in physics is.

I have a PhD in Mechanical Engineering. Hope that's enough for you.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

I have a PhD in Mechanical Engineering. Hope that's enough for you.

Yeah, I'm not going to believe that. Nobody with a master or PhD in engineering would be so dismissive and painfully wrong on something so basic. Not to mention that you would be at least giving arguments for your reasoning. You're just a little forum troll.

 

[Dragy]

By the way, if the goal was to hit a volleyball hardest, it would be something similar to javelin throwing techniques applied - run, plant foot, throw the arm/hit the ball. It’s just that you need to get a volleyball over the net and into the court which forces them to jump for power serve.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Yeah, I'm not going to believe that. Nobody with a master or PhD in engineering would be so dismissive and painfully wrong on something so basic. Not to mention that you would be at least giving arguments for your reasoning. You're just a little forum troll.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

By the way, if the goal was to hit a volleyball hardest, it would be something similar to javelin throwing techniques applied - run, plant foot, throw the arm/hit the ball. It’s just that you need to get a volleyball over the net and into the court which forces them to jump for power serve.

Well not entirely, striking and throwing are not exactly the same, but I see your point. Besides you would make many foot faults in volleyball and would not be able to run as freely if you didn't jump at the end, jumping is the best way to smoothly transfer your power into the ball without having to stop awkwardly. Even without a net in volleyball I think you may hit the ball at your opponents slightly faster by jumping because you can hit downwards more, so gravity is accelerating your shot. What matters is how hard the ball hits the receiver, not how far it will go (like in javelin throw).

 

[Deleted member 771407]

Let's hope you're just a troll. Putting aside volleyball where an argument can be made, thinking that you're losing power in tennis be jumping is plain wrong and a bit worrying for someone who had even basic classes in highschool Newtonian physics.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Let's hope you're just a troll. Putting aside volleyball where an argument can be made, thinking that you're losing power in tennis be jumping is plain wrong and a bit worrying for someone who had even basic classes in highschool Newtonian physics.

How do you say "strawman" en francais?

 

[Deleted member 771407]

How do you say "strawman" en francais?

I've still to hear an argument more compelling than "it's physics, duh", Professor Slowtwitcher.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

I've still to hear an argument more compelling than "it's physics, duh", Professor Slowtwitcher.

Meh...

 

[Dragy]

Well not entirely, striking and throwing are not exactly the same, but I see your point. Besides you would make many foot faults in volleyball and would not be able to run as freely if you didn't jump at the end, jumping is the best way to smoothly transfer your power into the ball without having to stop awkwardly. Even without a net in volleyball I think you may hit the ball at your opponents slightly faster by jumping because you can hit downwards more, so gravity is accelerating your shot. What matters is how hard the ball hits the receiver, not how far it will go (like in javelin throw).

There's key mechanics of launching rapid torso rotation with ground contact - used by javelin throwers, baseball pitchers and outfielders, quarterbacks and tennis servers. Volleyball servers don't use it replacing with "folding" body action after arcing prep. Forward/upward momentum adds some base speed, but it's relatively low. Directly loading the shoulder while rotating torso (up and around) with ground contact is much more potent.

 

[Deleted member 771407]

There's key mechanics of launching rapid torso rotation with ground contact - used by javelin throwers, baseball pitchers and outfielders, quarterbacks and tennis servers. Volleyball servers don't use it replacing with "folding" body action after arcing prep. Forward/upward momentum adds some base speed, but it's relatively low. Directly loading the shoulder while rotating torso (up and around) with ground contact is much more potent.

I agree with you. I just don't know if the gain of having gravity work for you instead of against you would off set that. Besides, you do agree that in tennis the jump is mostly a byproduct of this "ground contact" you are mentioning, right ? The players are not trying to jump as high as possible, they are simply trying to push as hard as possible on their legs. Even if you watch javelin throwers, you can see that they almost jump off the ground, and they have to resist their momentum because they are not allowed to jump over the white line like in tennis.

Tennis players are not giving up forward momentum to hit higher, they simply push as hard and forward as is biologically efficient. Height is just a nice byproduct.

 

[Rattler]

You’ve got a nice shoulder turn, but almost zero hip turn. Concentrate on turning your hips, you should feel some tension in your hips as you do and during the beginning of the leg drive. BTW the turning of the hips is what will drive your left hip forward.

 

[Duckman]

I've worked on this for past few days with all y'all advice.

I could still not find the proper balance point and kept falling. Lol.

Then I took a weight in my right hand, and arched my back as much as I could. And finally I felt balance. Then I realized the javelin throw form and how the shoulder needs to externally rotate to keep some weight "back there". and it almost makes sense now how to distribute weight. but I still feel pretty uncomfortable in this position.

There is no chance I could do this in a full motion, so I am just working from a static position and getting reps in

How does this new position look? This would be my fully bottomed position, and I would think I just need to drive off my back foot while raising elbow into contact. I still don't feel stable, and there is an extreme stretch in my right quad - is this natural?

https://imgur.com/KnhtPFT

 

[J011yroger]

I've worked on this for past few days with all y'all advice.

I could still not find the proper balance point and kept falling. Lol.

Then I took a weight in my right hand, and arched my back as much as I could. And finally I felt balance. Then I realized the javelin throw form and how the shoulder needs to externally rotate to keep some weight "back there". and it almost makes sense now how to distribute weight. but I still feel pretty uncomfortable in this position.

There is no chance I could do this in a full motion, so I am just working from a static position and getting reps in

How does this new position look? This would be my fully bottomed position, and I would think I just need to drive off my back foot while raising elbow into contact. I still don't feel stable, and there is an extreme stretch in my right quad - is this natural?

https://imgur.com/KnhtPFT

No.

Point your left foot more forward, move your feet closer together, move your right foot more left, and bend your knees because you are turning away from the court. Reach higher with your left hand and tilt your shoulders.

J

 

[Duckman]

No.

Point your left foot more forward, move your feet closer together, move your right foot more left, and bend your knees because you are turning away from the court. Reach higher with your left hand and tilt your shoulders.

J

https://imgur.com/QkKqYvM

How's this? I know elbow should be in line with shoulders, what about everything else? I reckon There should be a bit more shoulder turn at bottom. RIght now hips and shoulders seems to be in line. I'm still struggling to keep enough weight on back foot. The balance is tenuous at best even from this stationary position and I'm at a loss at how i can get more weight back there...

 

[J011yroger]

How's this? I know elbow should be in line with shoulders, what about everything else? I reckon There should be a bit more shoulder turn at bottom. RIght now hips and shoulders seems to be in line

https://imgur.com/QkKqYvM

Much better. Elbow is ok in front of the chest a little.

Just turn away with your upper body a little more, remember that you are swinging up and out to the right, not forward.

1000% improvement though.

J

 

[ballmachineguy]

No.

Point your left foot more forward, move your feet closer together, move your right foot more left, and bend your knees because you are turning away from the court. Reach higher with your left hand and tilt your shoulders.

J

Don’t forget to spin the spinner and call the shot.

 

[GrilledBurgers]

It looks like you have weight transfer more characteristic of pinpoint serve, you just don't move your right foot forward.

For platform serve, you usually have less of backward/forward weight shifting and you set yourself to jump up, not forward.

With my (platform) serve, the only thing I do load my back leg at ball toss is to lift my left forefoot.

One other thing you could try is having a platform stance with a closer stance. You can start trials for between where you are now to starting at a full pinpoint stance if you enjoy platform motion (like Roddick).