How to React to bad line calling

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lskater

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I have a GREAT coach..everything has GREATLY improved since I've been with him (now 6 years). There are a few things we disagree on however and today I got pretty frusterated with him.

It's regarding how to handle bad line calls. Let me give you the scenario, this is adult USTA league 3.5, there are no refs at our matches, so not an option to call one over.

Tennis Coaches view: If you are hitting against a person who is making bad line calls, then start calling their balls out (even if they're in) and give them a taste of their own medicine.

Me: This is adult league tennis and I'm not going to start calling balls out if they're in. Why put myself at that level? Be gracious and the better person and maybe try to hit shots that are not as near the line.

Maybe the right answer is somewhere between our two views, but if you had to choose which view is closer to yours, which one would you choose?

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. Trying to figure out if this is serious enough to find a coach to better fit my personality.

FYI, I don't consider it an option to stand at the net and argue over a line call for 5-10 min. That seems silly to me and a waste of time.
 
Your view is the right one - just because an opponent cheats, you should not cheat as then you become a cheater also. It doesn’t matter who started it. You should follow your good values.

The way to deal with repeated cheaters is to question their calls firmly a few times. Sometimes it makes them less likely to cheat blatantly which helps. Sometimes it doesn’t and they will keep cheating. Just do your best in that case to not get so upset emotionally that you can’t play your best tennis anymore. Many cheaters in tournaments and league matches cheat to throw you off your game mentally and not just to win a few points. Easier said than done to ignore it though.

How good is your coach if after regular coaching for six years, you are playing 3.5 USTA matches? You should fire him for that.
 
My guess is that if you do some payback, the opponent won't get it, and will think YOU'RE the cheat! Might even give you a reputation for being one.

Some people just aren't fun to have around. Some people drive like jerks. I don't think there's really anything you can do about it. Just try to keep all your shots way in and hope you can beat him anyway.
 
lskater said:
I have a GREAT coach..everything has GREATLY improved since I've been with him (now 6 years). There are a few things we disagree on however and today I got pretty frusterated with him.

It's regarding how to handle bad line calls. Let me give you the scenario, this is adult USTA league 3.5, there are no refs at our matches, so not an option to call one over.

Tennis Coaches view: If you are hitting against a person who is making bad line calls, then start calling their balls out (even if they're in) and give them a taste of their own medicine.

Me: This is adult league tennis and I'm not going to start calling balls out if they're in. Why put myself at that level? Be gracious and the better person and maybe try to hit shots that are not as near the line.

Maybe the right answer is somewhere between our two views, but if you had to choose which view is closer to yours, which one would you choose?

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. Trying to figure out if this is serious enough to find a coach to better fit my personality.

FYI, I don't consider it an option to stand at the net and argue over a line call for 5-10 min. That seems silly to me and a waste of time.
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is
you are a true gentleman.
in league, you handle bad line calls by asking for linespeople to be present, usually one guy from the opposition and one from your team. they dont make calls but are suppose to provide an unbiased ruling on disputed calls.
generally makes the match "less" friendly
z
 
I’ve always wanted to just intentionally hook someone back after a bad line call. But it’s just a dream in my head. I’ve never actually been able to do it because it’s wrong at the end of the day.

My new fantasy is just to immediately dispute the score and go back to the last agreed upon score. Likewise, this will probably stay a fantasy forever.
 
I've tried both. To retaliate just escalates and every shot will turn into an argument/debate making you wish you were somewhere else.

Best to call it as you see it. If you're not sure give them the benefit of the doubt and most will reciprocate.
 
socallefty said:
Your view is the right one - just because an opponent cheats, you should not cheat as then you become a cheater also. It doesn’t matter who started it. You should follow your good values.

The way to deal with repeated cheaters is to question their calls firmly a few times. Sometimes it makes them less likely to cheat blatantly which helps. Sometimes it doesn’t and they will keep cheating. Just do your best in that case to not get so upset emotionally that you can’t play your best tennis anymore. Many cheaters in tournaments and league matches cheat to throw you off your game mentally and not just to win a few points. Easier said than done to ignore it though.

How good is your coach if after regular coaching for six years, you are playing 3.5 USTA matches? You should fire him for that.
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Ha ha, 6 years and 3.5 is the thing that stood out to me in that post too!
 
I just move on. I have never been obviously intentionally hooked in adult leagues. I have seen people make bad calls or question good ones bc they’re standing with a bad perspective or they aren’t used to spin/pace etc etc. i chalk it up to inexperience or whatever and move on, not worth souring the match with an argument.
 
lskater said:
Tennis Coaches view: If you are hitting against a person who is making bad line calls, then start calling their balls out (even if they're in) and give them a taste of their own medicine.

Me: This is adult league tennis and I'm not going to start calling balls out if they're in. Why put myself at that level? Be gracious and the better person and maybe try to hit shots that are not as near the line.

Maybe the right answer is somewhere between our two views, but if you had to choose which view is closer to yours, which one would you choose?
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I'm closer to your point of view. If my opponent is calling balls out that hit lines and I can "see the ball" hit the line, I will question their call with the "Are you sure?" and leave it there. I'll will even call my ball out (sidelines), if I can see that it is out.
 
Don't compromise your ethics by hooking them back. Question the calls and leave more margin for error in your shot selection.

Any coach that says hooking back is the correct way to handle it would not get my $ in the future.
 
socallefty said:
How good is your coach if after regular coaching for six years, you are playing 3.5 USTA matches? You should fire him for that.
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@socallefty, I like reading your posts on this forum and I would appreciate your feedback as someone that plays at a higher rec level. Leaving aside outliers, what kind of improvement timeline would you expect to see for older adults (40+) learning tennis with weekly lessons? 2 to 3 years per .5 increase of NTRP?

I'm coming up on 4 years of lessons, enjoy working with my current coach, and feel that I am improving, but not very quickly. I played USTA league for the first time in 2022 (January) and self-rated as 3.0. I got bumped up to 3.5 this past December and I continued to play on a men's 3.5 league team.
 
got hooked pretty badly a couple times in a usta match last night... what keeps me sane, is knowing i didn't mean to hit the lines anyway.
i've heard of coaches saying to hook back (eg. in juniors where cheating is rampant)... while i don't agree with it, i think it's more of a mental warfare tactic, than a "you must compromise your values" message (even though it is)... that said, i'd just tell my kid to (a) presume all lines hit by opponent are in, all lines hit by my kid are accidental/out (b) be prepared to beat them through attrition (c) if it gets really bad (obvious 3x), call a tournament official - and keep calling them for every line call issue thereafter
if no official... see (a) & (b) - sucks but good practice anyway.
 
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To me, calling lines in tennis is like calling balls and strikes in baseball, some people are just bad at it but are forced to do it. If Angel Hernandez can call major league games and make as many mistakes as he does, what can I really expect from some guy just trying to get out of the house for a couple hours?
 
depends on how bad the hooks are. like are they calling line balls consistently out? If so, in all likelihood you don't really have a great view from where you are, so I tend to let that go and just assume it's gonna be a tight line match.

If these are BAD hooks (clearly inside the line with room), then on the first one, I'll give the "you sure about that, buddy?" for the second one, I'll do the "that wasn't out, but it's your call." and then move on...after the third BAD hook, I'm getting one back.

Calling lines is part of the sport in league play. If they're consistently making bad calls, it's likely because they want to make bad line calls to either make you mad or just to win cheap points. If somebody is just honestly bad with lines, and is aware that they're bad with lines, then they can go play socially with friends.
 
cks said:
@socallefty, I like reading your posts on this forum and I would appreciate your feedback as someone that plays at a higher rec level. Leaving aside outliers, what kind of improvement timeline would you expect to see for older adults (40+) learning tennis with weekly lessons? 2 to 3 years per .5 increase of NTRP?

I'm coming up on 4 years of lessons, enjoy working with my current coach, and feel that I am improving, but not very quickly. I played USTA league for the first time in 2022 (January) and self-rated as 3.0. I got bumped up to 3.5 this past December and I continued to play on a men's 3.5 league team.
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Hard to generalize as it depends on how fit a player is, how much prior experience they have with other sports including competing in matches, how much hand-eye coordination they have, how much they practice in addition to weekly lessons, how smart they are etc.

I have seen fit players (including in my family) move from Day 1 tennis start to computer rated 4.0 in about 3-4 years based on weekly lessons and playing a minimum of 4-5 times a week - combo of practice and matches. Those are the dedicated ones who play a lot and are willing to practice often while on a long-term development weekly program with coaches who also teach juniors. If someone came in with pro level experience from another sport, they can do it much faster. I think anyone should reach 4.0 with regular coaching and practices in a few years, but beyond that it depends on that player’s athletic/mental/emotional ceiling. I personally haven’t seen any solid computer ranked 4.5 players who started tennis in middle age, but I am sure a few are out there especially if they played other sports at a high competitive level.

I learned tennis as a kid and so can’t comment on personal experience when it comes to adult beginners.
 
Lord Of The Strings said:
depends on how bad the hooks are. like are they calling line balls consistently out? If so, in all likelihood you don't really have a great view from where you are, so I tend to let that go and just assume it's gonna be a tight line match.

If these are BAD hooks (clearly inside the line with room), then on the first one, I'll give the "you sure about that, buddy?" for the second one, I'll do the "that wasn't out, but it's your call." and then move on...after the third BAD hook, I'm getting one back.

Calling lines is part of the sport in league play. If they're consistently making bad calls, it's likely because they want to make bad line calls to either make you mad or just to win cheap points. If somebody is just honestly bad with lines, and is aware that they're bad with lines, then they can go play socially with friends.
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Yes. The thing to understand before going down this road is that it matters how sure you are about the hooks, how many there have been, and that there is an escalation process in your response. As L.O.T.S. says, you start with maybe a sidelong glance after the first one, then question the next one, then maybe question the next one more strongly, and only then when all of your passive resources are exhausted (this assumes of course that no officials or captains or unbiased tennis-savvy bystanders are available) do you take the nuclear step of hooking back. The intent of your hook is create a come-to-Jesus moment and a conversation, not a continuation of tit for tat. To achieve this, the hook should be egregious. For those who question the morality of this, I say it’s not reasonable to expect someone to be a doormat for an entire match. But you’d better be awfully, awfully sure the hooks were intentional.

It may not be sweet and nice but I’ve used this approach a few times when all else has failed and it has always stopped the hooking. Surely that is the prime objective.
 
socallefty said:
I think anyone should reach 4.0 with regular coaching and practices in a few years, but beyond that it depends on that player’s athletic/mental/emotional ceiling.
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Thanks for response.

My goal for this year was to improve to the top of the 3.5 NTRP band, where I get asked regularly to play S1 or D1 and can win at 50% or better. If I can make this happen, I will shoot for 4.0 next year.
 
We need tech to solve these problems. Bad calls are pervasive in USTA and must be dealt with to insure the integrity of the game. People are crazy and have guns in this country, it's only a matter of time before something really bad happens and USTA is forced to deal with these issues.
 
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ktx said:
I just move on. I have never been obviously intentionally hooked in adult leagues. I have seen people make bad calls or question good ones bc they’re standing with a bad perspective or they aren’t used to spin/pace etc etc. i chalk it up to inexperience or whatever and move on, not worth souring the match with an argument.
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Youre a lucky one, had a guy in a USTA Match hook me over a dozen times to the point his own team started getting on him.
 
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@lskater back to OP

The step one thing most rec players are bad at is you should get in the habit of saying "let's go" or somesuch after good balls (and close balls.)

Both to hype yourself up but also to force them to overrule you if it's close. You're basically making the statement 'i know that was good, you better be sure if you're gonna call otherwise' without any accusation or rudeness.

If the hooking is particularly bad I think you need to integrate parts of your coaches advice but there's levels. Keep in mind hooking heavy players rarely play lots of line shots, so tit-for-tat still loses you the match.

Step one is that you move from uncertain=in to uncertain=out. You keep calling the ones you're sure on honestly but take the few free points.

The next level is, if you're sure that they're cheating, to call some very obvious retaliation outs. Like, literally call their serve and second serve that are in the middle of the box out. If they get angry say 'its my call not yours and move on' it needs to be an obvious hook so once again you're accusing them with your actions but not calling them out and giving them the chance to get defensive.

Do it once see if they self correct, if not then imo call every shot they take out the rest of the match. Basically, it signals: we can play tennis and play fair or we can call out on the rest of the match and the winner will be whomever mathematically wins from that point.


I have also had luck switching to annoying strats (people hook my serve a lot because it's fast and spinny) like underhand serve and lob. My basic philosophy on hooking is if I don't get to go out and have fun neither do they - especially when it's obvious I would win a match played head up.
 
This is all bush league and petty. Most of these people are not even aware they are cheating. I would rather challenge another man to a fight than cheat myself. The self-degradation of impugning my own integrity for a USTA tennis match is uber-demeaning.

It ain't that serious. Life ain't fair...Don't degrade yourself to stoop to another's level.
 
I agree with those who say you should never, ever call a ball out that you saw land in. That is cheating, and nothing changes that fact. There are plenty of ways to deal with a bad line calling opponent that do not involve breaking the rules. Even if none of those other methods are working, still don't resort to cheating.

I would be annoyed if a coach told me I should call in balls out, and might even call them on it: "you're really advising me to cheat??" But if they are a good coach otherwise I don't know that it would be a deal breaker for me.
 
lskater said:
I have a GREAT coach..everything has GREATLY improved since I've been with him (now 6 years). There are a few things we disagree on however and today I got pretty frusterated with him.

It's regarding how to handle bad line calls. Let me give you the scenario, this is adult USTA league 3.5, there are no refs at our matches, so not an option to call one over.

Tennis Coaches view: If you are hitting against a person who is making bad line calls, then start calling their balls out (even if they're in) and give them a taste of their own medicine.

Me: This is adult league tennis and I'm not going to start calling balls out if they're in. Why put myself at that level? Be gracious and the better person and maybe try to hit shots that are not as near the line.

Maybe the right answer is somewhere between our two views, but if you had to choose which view is closer to yours, which one would you choose?

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. Trying to figure out if this is serious enough to find a coach to better fit my personality.

FYI, I don't consider it an option to stand at the net and argue over a line call for 5-10 min. That seems silly to me and a waste of time.
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I’m with you.

While I understand what the coach is saying, escalation is the likely outcome. The “ooh, he’s called me out on my cheating, so I’ll better stop it”-scenario seems very unlikely to me, especially if they’re hooking you.

Most important for me is that I could be wrong in my view that my opponent is consciously hooking me. I’m not the most experienced player, but out of all the bad calls I’ve seen, 95% or more is a honest mistake (a.k.a. Incompetence) ;) .
 
lskater said:
I have a GREAT coach..everything has GREATLY improved since I've been with him (now 6 years). There are a few things we disagree on however and today I got pretty frusterated with him.

It's regarding how to handle bad line calls. Let me give you the scenario, this is adult USTA league 3.5, there are no refs at our matches, so not an option to call one over.

Tennis Coaches view: If you are hitting against a person who is making bad line calls, then start calling their balls out (even if they're in) and give them a taste of their own medicine.

Me: This is adult league tennis and I'm not going to start calling balls out if they're in. Why put myself at that level? Be gracious and the better person and maybe try to hit shots that are not as near the line.

Maybe the right answer is somewhere between our two views, but if you had to choose which view is closer to yours, which one would you choose?

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. Trying to figure out if this is serious enough to find a coach to better fit my personality.

FYI, I don't consider it an option to stand at the net and argue over a line call for 5-10 min. That seems silly to me and a waste of time.
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I agree with you. I call em as I see em. It’s silly to argue over calls. the only thing I can offer though is my approach which is to hit a better shot - one that can’t be called out.
 
Call a few of their close ones out, Then when they complain, tell them it's just as out as your shot was. they should get the hint that you're on to them. then go back to normal play and see if they continue their bad calls. if they do, then you will have to play their same game unfortunately. This is not about being the better man, or stooping to their level. it's about teaching them a lesson, and the tool at your disposal is giving them some of their own medicine.

If you don't, slowly your game will be affected and it will eat away at your confidence more than being happy by taking the moral high ground. You will start playing too safe for fear of a close call, and possibly feeding the opponent easier shots to return, thus possibly losing the game.
 
lskater said:
I have a GREAT coach..everything has GREATLY improved since I've been with him (now 6 years). There are a few things we disagree on however and today I got pretty frusterated with him.

It's regarding how to handle bad line calls. Let me give you the scenario, this is adult USTA league 3.5, there are no refs at our matches, so not an option to call one over.

Tennis Coaches view: If you are hitting against a person who is making bad line calls, then start calling their balls out (even if they're in) and give them a taste of their own medicine.

Me: This is adult league tennis and I'm not going to start calling balls out if they're in. Why put myself at that level? Be gracious and the better person and maybe try to hit shots that are not as near the line.

Maybe the right answer is somewhere between our two views, but if you had to choose which view is closer to yours, which one would you choose?

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. Trying to figure out if this is serious enough to find a coach to better fit my personality.

FYI, I don't consider it an option to stand at the net and argue over a line call for 5-10 min. That seems silly to me and a waste of time.
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Record the game, put a go-pro behind, at least it might reduce the bad line calls by 50% ( assuming you switch sides and he may make bad calls while the camera is behind you ). Tell that person you are putting a go pro camera just to get a sense of how deep you hit the balls and may share that with friends.
 
You're correct but he's right if that makes any sense which it prolly doesn't. There's going to be balls on the baseline that are very close that you can get away with that judging by the way you framed the OP you'd prolly call in. If it is even close or maybe even looks barely out but you'd let it go normally because you're a sporting gentleman just call it out.

If you feel like you're good enough to do it and it won't necessarily cost you the match trying to do it you can maybe drop shot him and try to bring him up to the net and drill him.

My pro growing up never explicitly told us to do either of those things but we just kinda knew that was the way to handle things. Ideally, I'd rather drill the guy as I am not stooping to their level/maintaining a degree of honor and drilling a guy when he has it coming feels pretty damn good.
 
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cks said:
@socallefty, I like reading your posts on this forum and I would appreciate your feedback as someone that plays at a higher rec level. Leaving aside outliers, what kind of improvement timeline would you expect to see for older adults (40+) learning tennis with weekly lessons? 2 to 3 years per .5 increase of NTRP?

I'm coming up on 4 years of lessons, enjoy working with my current coach, and feel that I am improving, but not very quickly. I played USTA league for the first time in 2022 (January) and self-rated as 3.0. I got bumped up to 3.5 this past December and I continued to play on a men's 3.5 league team.
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I wouldn't feel bad (not that you said you did).

I play 3.5 and I played growing up. Stopped for like almost 20 years. Picked it back up maybe 5-6 years ago. I don't get to play nearly as much as I'd like. I self rated 3.5 when I came back. Not that you said you feel that way but don't feel bad about a lack of perceived improvement. Your NTRP rating is just that, a rating.

With all due respect to MEP, Green Shirt Guy, whatever from Tennis Troll and other sites do you want to be a 4.5 or do you want to be a solid player with nice strokes that looks like he knows what he's doing?

How are you doing in 3.5 anyway?
 
NTRP_3.75_Patrick_Rafter said:
How are you doing in 3.5 anyway?
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Not great, but that is to be expected, since I consider myself on the lower end of the 3.5 band.

The Winter 2023 season (men's 40+) started in January this year. Team played 6 matches. I played in 4 matches. Lost D3 (split sets), Lost S1, Lost D2, Lost D1 (split sets). My best match was the D1 loss where we won the second set.

The Spring 2023 season (men's 18+) started, and the team has played one match so far, but I haven't played yet.
NTRP_3.75_Patrick_Rafter said:
do you want to be a 4.5 or do you want to be a solid player with nice strokes that looks like he knows what he's doing?
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I want to steadily improve. Playing USTA league is one way to measure improvement. My goal for 2023 was to be one of the players on our team at the high end of 3.5. If I can make that happen, I will shoot for 4.0 in 2024.
 
cks said:
Not great, but that is to be expected, since I consider myself on the lower end of the 3.5 band.

The Winter 2023 season (men's 40+) started in January this year. Team played 6 matches. I played in 4 matches. Lost D3 (split sets), Lost S1, Lost D2, Lost D1 (split sets). My best match was the D1 loss where we won the second set.

The Spring 2023 season (men's 18+) started, and the team has played one match so far, but I haven't played yet.

I want to steadily improve. Playing USTA league is one way to measure improvement. My goal for 2023 was to be one of the players on our team at the high end of 3.5. If I can make that happen, I will shoot for 4.0 in 2024.
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Obviously you want to win. Like Herm Edwards said...

eutawiisp9jkji5czmnm


That said, winning shouldn't be the only measure of improvement. Consistency, coming up with nice shots in pressure situations when you need them, etc. are good measures too. I actually don't really like playing USTA. Don't get me wrong, I'll play whenever I can but pick up games with the boys are a great way to really let loose, take some cuts, find out what works and what doesn't. You're not really playing tight. Great way to build confidence.
 
cks said:
Not great, but that is to be expected, since I consider myself on the lower end of the 3.5 band.

The Winter 2023 season (men's 40+) started in January this year. Team played 6 matches. I played in 4 matches. Lost D3 (split sets), Lost S1, Lost D2, Lost D1 (split sets). My best match was the D1 loss where we won the second set.

The Spring 2023 season (men's 18+) started, and the team has played one match so far, but I haven't played yet.

I want to steadily improve. Playing USTA league is one way to measure improvement. My goal for 2023 was to be one of the players on our team at the high end of 3.5. If I can make that happen, I will shoot for 4.0 in 2024.
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Match play helps improve shot selection, but not shot quality until you have achieved a certain level.

At 3.5 level, if you want your shots to look good you need to do drills- practice baseline rallies, practice hitting proper shots in midcourt, practice volleys.

If you want to learn to use the right shots at the right time, play matches. For eg, if you are stretched, you learn to lob it back to buy time for yourself. If you are close to the net you learn to hit the ball with low net clearance so that your ball lands inside the court and not outside ( if you strike like a baseline ball). If you hit a drop shot, and the other person is scrambling to get to the ball, you learn to approach the net and cover his angles. These are things you learn in matches.
 
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cks said:
I played in 4 matches. Lost D3 (split sets), Lost S1, Lost D2, Lost D1 (split sets). My best match was the D1 loss where we won the second set.
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Does your team do any practices? To win in USTA doubles consistently, you have to be paired with decent partners for the level. If you play well in practice, maybe your captain will pair you up with better players and then you can win more. That is part of why it is tough to win in USTA doubles unless you are one of the better players on the team at that level.
 
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optic yellow said:
I don't understand how hooking back once you are absolutely certain your opponent is doing so intentionally is compromising any morals. There is nothing wrong with standing up for yourself. It's weak imo to just sit there and take it.
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That's playing the eye-for-an-eye game where everyone ends up toothless and blind. Standing up for yourself would be to challenge them openly about their calls.

I play somewhere where we get marks on the bounce and it's great to be able to check my working and verify I've seen what I've seen, but it's also great for being able to dispute a bad call with clear evidence... not that it doesn't stop some players (hello Davidovich Fokina...) pointing at the wrong mark that conveniently favours them...

One of the nice things about it is that it's taught me, over the years, which calls I should trust myself about and which I shouldn't - anything in your peripheral vision, be it you're looking sidelong at the bounce because your head is turned due to running sideways, or be it if the ball bounces right below your nose, is difficult to get right. Also, half the time you're not really looking at the bounce, you're looking at where you're expecting the ball to bounce to and if the ball is travelling sideways then sometimes the disparity between the two is enough for you to simply not see the bounce. Also, flat, skiddy serves coming straight at you are hard to call accurately too - from the side anything fast and skiddy is tricky because the angle of impact is so shallow it can be a challenge to really know where the contact was made.

Fundamentally half the battle is the brain makes up information for you based on incomplete information (https://www.gla.ac.uk/news/archiveofnews/2011/april/headline_194655_en.html) and it's patently clear some people's brains are better at it than others when it comes to calling lines.

Ultimately I choose to believe most players are genuinely just calling what they see and as long as there's not a consistent pattern of obviously calling anything vaguely close out, and as long as there's no absolute howlers which I will tend to react to before I've had chance to think, then I try to just let it go. Most of the competitive matches I play nowadays are doubles so there's always a partner to have a grumble with and if it's really bad we can complain to the captain afterwards. The very fact that there's four eyes on the ball (typically) tends towards fewer arguments, anyway.
 
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Leaving aside the coach aspect, if I was constantly getting robbed I would start hitting balls out of the fence. Once you run out of balls, the cheat can't win.
 
Take his head off!!! I’ll give up one point so this won’t happen again. And if it does/walk off the court and call this a win in my favor as a 60 forfeit win
 
Wurm said:
That's playing the eye-for-an-eye game where everyone ends up toothless and blind. Standing up for yourself would be to challenge them openly about their calls.

I play somewhere where we get marks on the bounce and it's great to be able to check my working and verify I've seen what I've seen, but it's also great for being able to dispute a bad call with clear evidence... not that it doesn't stop some players (hello Davidovich Fokina...) pointing at the wrong mark that conveniently favours them...

One of the nice things about it is that it's taught me, over the years, which calls I should trust myself about and which I shouldn't - anything in your peripheral vision, be it you're looking sidelong at the bounce because your head is turned due to running sideways, or be it if the ball bounces right below your nose, is difficult to get right. Also, half the time you're not really looking at the bounce, you're looking at where you're expecting the ball to bounce to and if the ball is travelling sideways then sometimes the disparity between the two is enough for you to simply not see the bounce. Also, flat, skiddy serves coming straight at you are hard to call accurately too - from the side anything fast and skiddy is tricky because the angle of impact is so shallow it can be a challenge to really know where the contact was made.

Fundamentally half the battle is the brain makes up information for you based on incomplete information (https://www.gla.ac.uk/news/archiveofnews/2011/april/headline_194655_en.html) and it's patently clear some people's brains are better at it than others when it comes to calling lines.

Ultimately I choose to believe most players are genuinely just calling what they see and as long as there's not a consistent pattern of obviously calling anything vaguely close out, and as long as there's no absolute howlers which I will tend to react to before I've had chance to think, then I try to just let it go. Most of the competitive matches I play nowadays are doubles so there's always a partner to have a grumble with and if it's really bad we can complain to the captain afterwards. The very fact that there's four eyes on the ball (typically) tends towards fewer arguments, anyway.
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It's really easy to tell whether they're cheating you intentionally or not because unless they're a genius and aware of how to fake it correctly they end up giving you balls you thought were out as well as taking away balls you thought were in. That + assessing the convenience factor of the calls is how I always tell whether someone is cheating me in a way that deserves retaliation or not. And even then there are multiple chances given to correct the behavior before the retaliatory measures start. So I think this whole "eye for an eye" construction is a bit simplistic.
 
lskater said:
I have a GREAT coach..everything has GREATLY improved since I've been with him (now 6 years). There are a few things we disagree on however and today I got pretty frusterated with him.

It's regarding how to handle bad line calls. Let me give you the scenario, this is adult USTA league 3.5, there are no refs at our matches, so not an option to call one over.

Tennis Coaches view: If you are hitting against a person who is making bad line calls, then start calling their balls out (even if they're in) and give them a taste of their own medicine.

Me: This is adult league tennis and I'm not going to start calling balls out if they're in. Why put myself at that level? Be gracious and the better person and maybe try to hit shots that are not as near the line.

Maybe the right answer is somewhere between our two views, but if you had to choose which view is closer to yours, which one would you choose?

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. Trying to figure out if this is serious enough to find a coach to better fit my personality.

FYI, I don't consider it an option to stand at the net and argue over a line call for 5-10 min. That seems silly to me and a waste of time.
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I share your point of view. Instead of asking "are you sure?", I tend to ask opponents to show me where they saw the ball landing, just to see how far off they thought it was. . .

I cannot call balls that are in out, no matter how tempting. Good sportsmanship matters. Your coach sound like someone who believes that if you're not cheating, you're not trying! :)
 
You know what I do? record every match. Roast them in the replays. send them the video.

dudes get so red faced so fast when they're exposed.


like this series of points. Still waiting to get that hundred bucks...
 
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socallefty said:
Does your team do any practices?
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Nothing formal nor required. Our captain set up a bi-weekly clinic (90 minutes) with teaching pro, which is voluntary. We probably have about half of the team show up. Focus is on doubles.
socallefty said:
To win in USTA doubles consistently, you have to be paired with decent partners for the level. If you play well in practice, maybe your captain will pair you up with better players and then you can win more. That is part of why it is tough to win in USTA doubles unless you are one of the better players on the team at that level.
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Thanks. Good to know.
 
tennislover2 said:
If you want to learn to use the right shots at the right time, play matches.
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We recently setup a singles ladder as a way to get in more practice for those players who want to play singles (about half of our team). This has been fun, and I've gotten in 4 singles matches in the last month. 3 wins and 1 loss.
 
kevin qmto said:
You know what I do? record every match. Roast them in the replays. send them the video.

dudes get so red faced so fast when they're exposed.


like this series of points. Still waiting to get that hundred bucks...
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This is a great example of one reason why it's a bad idea to start calling in balls out on purpose as some kind of retaliation attempt. You might be retaliating against nothing. That guy was convinced you called a good ball out when you actually had not. If he had started making actual bad calls in retaliation, suddenly he is the only cheater in the match while all the while thinking he's some kind of brave hero standing up for himself.
 
Aurellian said:
We need tech to solve these problems. Bad calls are pervasive in USTA and must be dealt with to insure the integrity of the game. People are crazy and have guns in this country, it's only a matter of time before something really bad happens and USTA is forced to deal with these issues.
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I live in a "stand your ground" state. I let my opponent know before the match starts that I'm licensed to carry concealed weapons.

I never have to deal with bad calls.

I suggest that the OP starts carrying a handgun on court to protect yourself from all the crazy people out there that make bad line calls.
 
There are three kinds of bad line callers.
  • Genuine errors where an opponent calls a line wrong because of parallax error, being in a bad position, ball far away and vision is poor etc. It might happen once or twice a match to both you and your opponent as not all your calls will be 100% accurate however fair you try to be especially when you get old. Here you just play on.
  • Opponents who are unsure of how they actually saw some calls and call all these uncertain calls out instead of calling them in as per rules. They don’t play by the dictum ‘when in doubt, call it in‘ or ‘99% out is 100% in’. It particularly happens on service calls and sideline calls with a few opponents. Here you finish out the match and then it is up to you to decide if ever want to play that opponent again socially. If you have to play them in a tournament or league match, you might want to let the organizer or team captain know you had an issue in the past and see if they want to take any measures like having an official present. If it is my partner doing this, I will talk to them after the first call that I think it might have been in and after the second bad call, I will just change the call and lose the point if I clearly saw it in. I’ve had partners get upset by this and play poorly afterwards including in an USTA match, but they usually call lines better after that if they know their partner will change their bad calls. Unfortunately not enough players do this as they don’t want to upset their partner and maybe have that affect the outcome. If you play with 20 guys regularly, you will see one or two guys like this and so I don’t see it commonly. I’ve heard it is really bad in junior tennis and women’s leagues.
  • Opponents who cheat intentionally and it will be clear if they blatantly call very clear in-balls out consistently especially on key points. There are two kinds of cheaters - those who do it strategically on only a few key calls and those who cheat on many close balls. In the first case, you again play on, maybe dispute the calls to let them know you know what’s going on. Then deal with them later as in the second case above. With the frequent cheater, I would stop playing if it is a social match and just say that I am seeing too many line calls differently to enjoy playing. If it is a league or tournament match, I would also stop playing, go look for the captain or organizer during the match and let them know what’s going on. Hopefully they take some action like calling an official and if they do or don’t, I would come back and finish out the match. I have faced only one opponent like this in a tournament and he was even worse as he would also call wrong scores when he was behind especially in two TBs we played.
 
kevin qmto said:
You know what I do? record every match. Roast them in the replays. send them the video.

dudes get so red faced so fast when they're exposed.


like this series of points. Still waiting to get that hundred bucks...
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That is amazing. Guy really wants his out balls to be in.

How were his calls on your close shots?
 
TennisOTM said:
This is a great example of one reason why it's a bad idea to start calling in balls out on purpose as some kind of retaliation attempt. You might be retaliating against nothing. That guy was convinced you called a good ball out when you actually had not. If he had started making actual bad calls in retaliation, suddenly he is the only cheater in the match while all the while thinking he's some kind of brave hero standing up for himself.
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No one sane advocates retaliating until you are absolutely certain you are being intentionally hooked.
 
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