How to toss for kick serve?

[EddieBrock]

I've got a huge match coming up in the next week so I don't want to make any huge changes, but I've struggled with my toss for years and especially with the 2nd serve. Looking online shows a ton of videos and instructions on where to toss for the kick serve, but not how.

With my slice serve I basically toss at a 45 degree angle and the ball goes straight up and down. With the kick serve, should I keep this same starting position and then move my arm to the left to get it to go straight up and to the left or should I do something like releasing later so the ball goes left and behind me more?

Even though I've been hitting great kick serve lately I'm just completely forgetting how to to do it and am starting to panic. Without suddenly turning and tossing parallel to the baseline or making some radical change, what can I do to get the toss in the right place for the kick serve?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Your toss depends on your serving technique. Your serving technique is unknown. There is a lot of variety in poster's 'kick' serves.

First, the Waiter's Tray technique is used by probably over 50% of active tennis players. All servers interested in serving technique should first check their serving techniques.

A tell tale checkpoint for the high level kick serve is the angle of the forearm-to-racket at impact. The angle has to be smaller so that the racket can still be rising as it contacts the ball. The flat and slice serve are seen to impact the ball closer to the highest point that the racket reaches. If you don't know what to look for you will not see it even with high speed videos.

Forearm-to-racket angle for impact of the kick serve. The racket can rise more effectively during impact. For this relatively lower impact location either the ball has to drop lower or the server must jump higher.

Forearm-to-racket angle of slice serve for comparison.

If you do not use the high level kick serve technique, I don't think there is any vetted advice for how an unknown kick serve technique should be performed.

While the ball is impacted more 'over the head' for a high level kick serve the head moves forward from toss release to make that happen. So the often heard advice 'Toss the ball over your head for a kick serve' is not what is seen in videos of most high level kick serves - the head moves forward. Look at the head location at toss release and head location at impact.

For comparison to slice serve
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-do-i-hit-a-slice-serve.574777/#post-10708267

 

[Chadillac]

Toss a hot wing (or other food) and catch it in your mouth. "Cheeze Its" are a great warm up tool, symmetrical.

You want the toss landing on your head, its a fun way to practice

 

[FiReFTW]

I would say focus on throwing the ball more behind you than ur slice or normal serve, at least above your head but probably a bit behind even, then just vary the toss around a bit and you see in ur shot how it goes and how the ball bounces, when it kicks to the different path than curving too then you got it.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I would say focus on throwing the ball more behind you than ur slice or normal serve, at least above your head but probably a bit behind even, then just vary the toss around a bit and you see in ur shot how it goes and how the ball bounces, when it kicks to the different path than curving too then you got it.

OK, but you need to qualify what is meant by tossing the ball more behind you. This can be taken 2 or 3 different ways -- depending on which direction "behind" is taken to be. What is the orientation of the server for "behind"? Server's initial position prior to the toss? Position at ball release? Position at contact? Position relative to orientation on the follow-thru (a bit after contact)?

For a right-handed server, would "behind" imply toward the right shoulder, toward the left shoulder or literally behind the head? The way I see it, the toss is more toward the left shoulder.

 

[Chas Tennis]

See also video

The reason the kick serve ball bounces up and to the right has been explained by Cross and Lindsey in their book, Technical Tennis. It's gyrospin, as explained by R. Cross in the TW article, The Physics of the Kick Serve.

To get gyrospin for the high level serve the racket must be closed at impact and be rising.

This great thread by Toly has about the best information that you can find for displaying how the closed racket contacts the ball and also how the racket rises after impact.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/federer-2nd-gulbis-1st-serves-comparison.519471/

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Rear view (for this sequence, topspin serve = kick serve)

Side view (toss is still forward of the baseline but not as far forward as flat or slice serves):

NOTE: The head moves forward/underneath the ball at contact for kick/topspin.

 

[Chas Tennis]

OK, but you need to qualify what is meant by tossing the ball more behind you. This can be taken 2 or 3 different ways -- depending on which direction "behind" is taken to be. What is the orientation of the server for "behind"? Server's initial position prior to the toss? Position at contact? Position relative to orientation on the follow-thru (a bit after contact)?

For a right-handed server, would "behind" imply toward the right shoulder, toward the left shoulder or literally behind the head? The way I see it, the toss is more toward the left shoulder.

FiReFTW will have a hard time finding pictures or videos of a high level server tossing it 'behind their head'. Videos from the side are good for this issue. Confirmed kick serve. Tossing has to be defined at the time of release with the body & head positions at the time of release.

I have seen instructional kick serve video where the toss truly looks behind/above the head. But that causes a more upright body jump and little forward motion. There may also be variations of the high level kick serve out there? I don't have many pieces of evidence but the overhead videos that I have seen show the toss release and then the head moving forward 2-3 feet for impact.

Another picture showing the the ball 'is not tossed over the head' and the head moves forward. Side views and overhead views show the head movement better than this behind view picture. (behind views shrink the dimension toward or away from the camera.)

If someone has ATP or WTA kick serves that are different please post.

There may be many club players with nasty kick serves that toss the ball over their heads. Where are the videos?

When advice is given - What technique is it for? It should at least be stated.

This 'toss behind the head for the kick serve' issue keeps posting because people don't back it up their beliefs with high speed video. It is not correct and misleading. Maybe it works for other unidentified techniques.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The reason the kick serve ball bounces up and to the right has been explained by Cross and Lindsey in their book, Technical Tennis. It's gyrospin, as explained by R. Cross in the TW article, The Physics of the Kick Serve.

To get gyropsin for the high level serve the racket must be closed at impact and be rising.

This great thread by Toly has about the best information that you can find for displaying how the closed racket contacts the ball and also how the racket rises after impact.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/federer-2nd-gulbis-1sypt-serves-comparison.519471/

The kick serve talked about here is the (American) twist serve. Twist serves have more gyrospin (spiral spin) and greater deviations to the side than other types of kick serves. The Cross presentation of the kick serve is undoubtedly about the twist kick serve.

Frankly, I don't always get a lot out of toly's presentations. His presentation are often "too busy". Not easy to follow (and his conclusions are sometimes faulty despite his in-depth technical presentation & analysis).

Cross and & toly only reveal part of the what is going on with a twist/kick serve.

I first learned about spiral spin (aka gyrospin ) from Rod Cross in his book, Technical Tennis (2005). I later saw the TW article where he refers to it as gyrospin rather than spiralspin (or spiral spin). From reading Cross' stuff, I had assumed that the magnitude of the spiral spin present at the bounce was more or less the amount present as the ball came off the strings.

It appears that very little, if any, spiral spin might be present at/after string contact. It could be that spiral spin is primarily acquired (accumulates or increases) as the ball flies thru the air prior to the bounce on a twist serve. It takes a very high rate of topspin/sidespin (relative to forward velocity) to produce this effect. It could also take an optimal amount of sidespin vs topspin to maximize the side bounce of a twist serve (refer to study below).

According to the study shown below, The spin axis and ball velocity vector were close to perpendicular regardless of serve type. If the spin axis is perpendicular to flight direction, this implies that very little Z-axis spin (gyrospin) is present initially.

Furthermore: Mean angles between the spin axis and the horizontal plane (elevation angles) were 65.6 degrees (+/- 10.2 degrees), 68.4 degrees (+/- 6.9 degrees), and 54.5 degrees (+/- 8.4 degrees) for the flat, slice, and kick serves, respectively.

From Bruce Elliot and others:
Ball spin in the tennis serve: Spin rate and axis of rotation
https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_tennis_serve_Spin_rate_and_axis_of_rotation

 

[Chas Tennis]

...................
........................From reading Cross' stuff, I had assumed that the magnitude of the spiral spin present at the bounce was more or less the amount present as the ball came off the strings.

It appears that very little, if any, spiral spin might be present at/after string contact. It could be that spiral spin is primarily acquired (accumulates or increases) as the ball flies thru the air prior to the bounce on a twist serve. It takes a very high rate of topspin/sidespin (relative to forward velocity) to produce this effect. It could also take an optimal amount of sidespin vs topspin to maximize the side bounce of a twist serve (refer to study below).

According to the study shown below, The spin axis and ball velocity vector were close to perpendicular regardless of serve type. If the spin axis is perpendicular to flight direction, this implies that very little Z-axis spin (gyrospin) is present initially.

Furthermore: Mean angles between the spin axis and the horizontal plane (elevation angles) were 65.6 degrees (+/- 10.2 degrees), 68.4 degrees (+/- 6.9 degrees), and 54.5 degrees (+/- 8.4 degrees) for the flat, slice, and kick serves, respectively.

From Bruce Elliot and others:
Ball spin in the tennis serve: Spin rate and axis of rotation
https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_tennis_serve_Spin_rate_and_axis_of_rotation

I believe that Figure 3 of the publication shows that gyrospin is large for the kick, slice and flat serves ( I did not notice for a year!). I have assumed that these spin components apply after impact and stay about the same direction as the ball travels, like a gyroscope. But the ball's travel direction changes from the aerodynamic forces.

Because of the high spin rate of the kick serve and its greater topspin component, when the ball strikes the court it is striking at a more downward angle. I believe also the part of the ball that contacts the court is farther from spin axis (there's little felt speed near the spin axis) so that the speed of the felt contacting the court is higher. For example, picture a slice serve with a completely vertical spin axis landing on the court, there would be little motion added to the side because the felt is not moving fast near the axis. In the real case, I believe that the kick serve contacts the court farther from the spin axis than the slice or flat serves. ....I have to think about it some more...... But the slice example illustrates the point. I believe Cross mentions this in the article, the Physics of the Kick Serve. My interpretation is that the ball jumps to the side because of the higher lateral felt velocity where the ball contacts the court.

Take a ball and use the spin axes in Figure 3 and see where it touches the court. Try vertical spin axis and see that there would be no tendency to bounce to the side on contact with the court.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Just try to toss the ball in an arc so it lands in your back pocket. It'll never get there, and wouldn't wind up in your pocket even if it did, but such a toss should put the ball in about the right place for you.

Ignore the manic technical discussion. Going down that rabbit hole is a good way to stay at 4.0 the rest of your life.

Such discussions are best left for after simple, practical attempts have been exhausted.

First serve: straight arm, release at eye level, drop it on your front toe (or wherever you're comfortable hitting it).

Second serve: straight arm, release at eye level, drop it in your back pocket.

 

[EddieBrock]

Just try to toss the ball in an arc so it lands in your back pocket. It'll never get there, and wouldn't wind up in your pocket even if it did, but such a toss should put the ball in about the right place for you.

Ignore the manic technical discussion. Going down that rabbit hole is a good way to stay at 4.0 the rest of your life.

Such discussions are best left for after simple, practical attempts have been exhausted.

First serve: straight arm, release at eye level, drop it on your front toe (or wherever you're comfortable hitting it).

Second serve: straight arm, release at eye level, drop it in your back pocket.

Thanks. Once I get the ball in the right spot my technique is pretty solid and I can hit the kick amazingly well some days. When I'm in the zone I don't really know what I'm doing, but can't replicate it, especially under pressure like I will be in the tournament.

With your description of the 2 serves, how exactly do you change the release or lift of the arm so it goes in an arc towards my back pocket?

Definitely not looking to get into the technical details or major swing changes right now, but am looking for practical advise on how to reliably place the ball where I want for the twist/kick serve.

 

[eelhc]

Depends on whether you're ~25 or ~45...

I don't vary the toss for the flat, spin, kick very much. It disguises the serve better but the main reason is that at my age, I cannot bend the knees and arch the back so I can effective hit a toss behind me. If I do... I may never get up.

If you ~45, I think it would serve you better to (pun intended) to change to a technique that's easier on the body, not just for serves.

The big issue I have on the kick is the loss of confidence in a big point to take the big, full cut at the ball.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I've got a huge match coming up in the next week so I don't want to make any huge changes, but I've struggled with my toss for years and especially with the 2nd serve. Looking online shows a ton of videos and instructions on where to toss for the kick serve, but not how.

With my slice serve I basically toss at a 45 degree angle and the ball goes straight up and down.

Sorry, didn't actually read your OP previously. Saw the thread title and replies from other posters and assumed that the thread was about WHERE to toss the ball.

Seems doubtful that your toss is really going straight up and down. Have heard claims like that before but it turns out that their toss did not actually travel in a vertical line up/down. Usually an arc. A very slight modification of the release point (and the arc) should change the toss location.

For the few servers that I've witnessed with straight/vertical tosses, they had to move quite a bit, foot faulting, to play their toss.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Unless you're chunking the serve, perhaps a better idea would be stop thinking about it since you said you're hitting it well. if this is right before a major match, you don't want to be concentrating on technique details [like I said, unless the stroke is completely breaking down, which it doesn't sound like it is]. You're better off concentrating on staying loose and letting your muscle memory take over.

After the match is when you can get into the nitty gritty.

 

[FiReFTW]

OK, but you need to qualify what is meant by tossing the ball more behind you. This can be taken 2 or 3 different ways -- depending on which direction "behind" is taken to be. What is the orientation of the server for "behind"? Server's initial position prior to the toss? Position at ball release? Position at contact? Position relative to orientation on the follow-thru (a bit after contact)?

For a right-handed server, would "behind" imply toward the right shoulder, toward the left shoulder or literally behind the head? The way I see it, the toss is more toward the left shoulder.

For me the baseline is the general guideline when im talking about that, so:

The red line means tossing more behind

And as someone else mentioned after you that the toss is not really behind but more over the top, thats not what I meant, im not claiming what the right toss location is at all.
And I think for people to focus on that is wrong aswell.
When learning such things (not only kick but also other things) its imo wrong to get some idea on EXACTLY what you should do (or in this case where the toss should be) because you will have this idea on where your toss HAS TO BE and you are tossing it there and focusing on that, but the shot is not really working or in this case having any kick but ul still try to get it and wonder what ur doing wrong since as far as you know its supposed to be like that, and ur just going to be spinning ur wheels.
My point was you should simply start tossing the ball more behind as you do on your flat or slice serve and thats the ONLY general idea you need to be aware of (apart from having the right swing of course), and after that you should just keep moving ur toss around slightly to find that spot, and your general guideline should be THE SHOT ITSELF, thats what you should focus on.
When you find that right toss spot it will be clear because your shot will have kick.
So people should experiment more and focus on the result and basically trial and error, instead of getting some idea in their head WHAT TO DO, and then scratching their head why its not working but keeping at it and grinding it, its a waste of time, because sometimes even if you see something on a video of how it looks (like in this case the toss) when you do it urself it might be quite different in 1st person, so ur doing something else that you think ur doing anyway.

 

[EddieBrock]

This morning I went out and practiced and am able to toss it more to my left by lifting my arm more to the left, but sometimes I think this may lead to opening my shoulders too much. I don't think I missed many and many jump to the right, but it just doesn't have anything on it.

Last week I was able to hit incredible kick serves, to the point where the person I was hitting with said something like "that's a shot you don't need to work on anymore". Then at the end of the week I went out and I just never felt like I had good contact and didn't hit it well. With the match about a week away I just thought I could make a small tweak to more consistently get the toss in the right place. Like someone said maybe just staying relaxed is all I can do at this point. I just don't know.

 

[Tennisanity]

Just try to toss the ball in an arc so it lands in your back pocket. It'll never get there, and wouldn't wind up in your pocket even if it did, but such a toss should put the ball in about the right place for you.

Ignore the manic technical discussion. Going down that rabbit hole is a good way to stay at 4.0 the rest of your life.

Such discussions are best left for after simple, practical attempts have been exhausted.

First serve: straight arm, release at eye level, drop it on your front toe (or wherever you're comfortable hitting it).

Second serve: straight arm, release at eye level, drop it in your back pocket.

Drops in your back pocket where your back pocket is at contact or where your back pocket is at the serve line before the motion?

 

[FiReFTW]

Drops in your back pocket where your back pocket is at contact or where your back pocket is at the serve line before the motion?

Thats exactly the overthiniking and overanalyzing and focusing too much on way too many details im talking about, instead of going out and practicing and learning where you need to toss yourself through trial and error.

 

[Tennisanity]

Thats exactly the overthiniking and overanalyzing and focusing too much on way too many details im talking about, instead of going out and practicing and learning where you need to toss yourself through trial and error.

Come on, that's not really overthinking, that's a legitimate question. In one case the toss is more into the court and in the other it's not. Black and white.

 

[EddieBrock]

Thats exactly the overthiniking and overanalyzing and focusing too much on way too many details im talking about, instead of going out and practicing and learning where you need to toss yourself through trial and error.

I went out this morning to practice with a bucket and honestly I'm not sure how much I got out of it. Sometimes the toss goes more forward, sometimes back, sometimes more left, sometimes more right. It's just really hard to control and tough for me to figure out how to get it in the perfect spot consistently. When everything is clicking I just kind of think about where I want the ball to go and it goes there, but when things are not clicking I don't know what to do.

 

[iChen]

I went out this morning to practice with a bucket and honestly I'm not sure how much I got out of it. Sometimes the toss goes more forward, sometimes back, sometimes more left, sometimes more right. It's just really hard to control and tough for me to figure out how to get it in the perfect spot consistently. When everything is clicking I just kind of think about where I want the ball to go and it goes there, but when things are not clicking I don't know what to do.

When I started learning serve I practiced tossing next to fence. Toss up and bend knees, no moving of left hand whatsoever, see if I can catch ball without moving.

 

[Chas Tennis]

1) What is the OP's serving technique?

2) How far forward does the OP move between the toss release and impact?

3) If he has an old video of his successful kick serve he could compare it to the present serve and might see what has changed.

Unknown technique. ?

 

[Chas Tennis]

I went out this morning to practice with a bucket and honestly I'm not sure how much I got out of it. Sometimes the toss goes more forward, sometimes back, sometimes more left, sometimes more right. It's just really hard to control and tough for me to figure out how to get it in the perfect spot consistently. When everything is clicking I just kind of think about where I want the ball to go and it goes there, but when things are not clicking I don't know what to do.

Do you have a video camera?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

This morning I went out and practiced and am able to toss it more to my left by lifting my arm more to the left, but sometimes I think this may lead to opening my shoulders too much. I don't think I missed many and many jump to the right, but it just doesn't have anything on it...

Lifted your arm more to the left??? You mean that you lifted your tossing arm at angle more than 45 degrees -- more toward the net? If so, I would have gone the other way.

Lift the arm at 30 degrees or less wrt the baseline and release the ball so that it arcs over to a position that is suitable for a kick serve. Forget trying to serve off a straight/vertical toss. Take a look at how much Sampras toss arcs. I believe that Federer might have a lower and even wider arc than this for his toss.

Spoiler: image source

this was stolen years ago from the TennisPlayer web site

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@EddieBrock

I assume that you are serving right-handed and tossing with your left arm. If you lift that arm more to the left as you suggested, it would be more difficult to achieve a decent coil unless your toss is rather high.

By lifting your tossing arm more toward the net, as I believe that you are doing, the ball is likely arcing from front to back. Instead, it would probably be better to toss closer to parallel to the baseline and have your toss arc from right to left (or left to right, depending on your POV) as shown in the Sampras GIF above. This way you can achieve an ample coil and will be able to stay side-on longer (which is what you want to do on a topspin or kick serve).

 

[Raul_SJ]

Come on, that's not really overthinking, that's a legitimate question. In one case the toss is more into the court and in the other it's not. Black and white.

The toss for kick should be behind you (arcing from right to left along the baseline). Right to left dimension.

The other dimension is forward to back dimension -- how far into the court to toss. It is acceptable if the beginner's toss lands about a foot inside the baseline (if you were to let it land and not hit it). Advanced players will tend to toss further into the court.

But the critical thing is to toss it behind your head (right to left orientation). That is a must. It's impossible to brush up otherwise.

There is leeway in the forward to back dimension but not in the right to left dimension.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Here is a slow motion kick serve as viewed from above.

Are the posted word descriptions above as clear and unambiguous to everybody as this video?

What is right to left when the servers shoulders are 45 d to the baseline and moving as in a serve?

 

[Raul_SJ]

What is right to left when the servers shoulders are 45 d to the baseline and moving as in a serve?

I do not relate the toss to the moving shoulders. The typical rear view video of the baseline will show the right to left arc. The side view video of the baseline will show the distance into the court dimension. And then I try to duplicate that trajectory.

The top view videos will show both dimensions, but top view videos are very rare.

 

[Chas Tennis]

................. The typical rear view video of the baseline will show the right to left arc. ...............

Notice in the video above that the toss goes from mostly the left side of the body to the right. But viewed from the typical rear view the ball shows the right to left arc. That is because the back is 45 d to the court.

Of course each of these varies for individual servers. The OP has an unknown technique.

FiReFTW has his system
"The red line means tossing more behind"

Should the OP's toss be parallel to the baseline?

 

[Chas Tennis]

I believe that researchers often use the court lines to avoid some of these issues. See the publication quoted above by SA.

 

[RetroSpin]

I thought the OP's question was not where to toss but rather how to do so consistently under pressure? The answer to that latter question is that it is an athletic skill, just like shooting a free throw or sinking a putt or catching a football. You have to learn to relax and trust your body. Of course, that trust comes from thousands of reps and the use of proper technique.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Do NOT follow the ball with your head/eyes. Elite servers will be looking at the serve opponent and target area as the tossing arm is at its lowest point at the start of the toss. However, prior to ball release or at release, most will lift the head and fix their gaze on the desired location of the ball toss (and expected contact point). Important that the eyes get to the toss location before the ball does.

With a bit of practice, this should help considerably to get the toss where you want it.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The Toss -- lift direction of the tossing arm:

http://www.virtualtennisacademy.com/videoinstruction/index.php?action=detail&id=276

 

[Raul_SJ]

Should the OP's toss be parallel to the baseline?

If "parallel" refers to the toss trajectory, it is a 3D parabolic arc, moving right to left and into the court, so it cannot be parallel to the baseline. OP says his toss "moves straight up and down", which is not really possible.

If "parallel" refers to the tossing arm position, Murray starts the motion with shoulders roughly perpendicular to the baseline. He seems to rotate the shoulder about 30 degrees at point of release (note: many servers will continue to coil shoulders away from the net after point of release). Murray loops the ball back beyond front thigh before releasing at front thigh (eye level), thus giving the toss a slight forward trajectory into the court.

I don't know how to describe the position of the tossing lower arm at release point, but it does not look quite parallel to the baseline. If shoulders have rotated away from the baseline at release point , let's say 30 degrees, then I am guessing that is also the approximate release point position of the lower tossing arm relative to baseline -- not familiar with biomechanics of how much the lower arm is capable of moving independently of the 30 degree shoulder coil away from the net.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

... Should the OP's toss be parallel to the baseline?

Not absolutely necessary. Easiest to get a good shoulder coil (upper torso coil) with tossing arm lifted "parallel" to the baseline, especially with tosses that are not of the high side. For students who have a difficulty implementing a "parallel" toss, I encourage lifting the arm at 30 to 45 degrees wrt the baseline. Works well for many players and still produces a decent amount of coil.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Ignore all these insane diagrams. You can NOT think about this stuff when serving. Or even learning to serve.

Just hit the ball for a few hours. Brush up somehow. You'll figure it out. It just need to be good enough.

 

[Chas Tennis]

If "parallel" refers to the toss trajectory, it is a 3D parabolic arc, moving right to left and into the court, so it cannot be parallel to the baseline. OP says his toss "moves straight up and down", which is not really possible.

If "parallel" refers to the tossing arm position, Murray starts the motion with shoulders roughly perpendicular to the baseline. He seems to rotate the shoulder about 30 degrees at point of release (note: many servers will continue to coil shoulders away from the net after point of release). Murray loops the ball back beyond front thigh before releasing at front thigh (eye level), thus giving the toss a slight forward trajectory into the court.

I don't know how to describe the position of the tossing lower arm at release point, but it does not look quite parallel to the baseline. If shoulders have rotated away from the baseline at release point , let's say 30 degrees, then I am guessing that is also the approximate release point position of the lower tossing arm relative to baseline -- not familiar with biomechanics of how much the lower arm is capable of moving independently of the 30 degree shoulder coil away from the net.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting toss observations by Toly.

Murray and Dolgopolov have unusual tosses - can't say which type serves are being shown - but the entire serve should be examined for each type serve and the unusual characteristics noted.

I have never seen stats that show the variety of tosses being used in the ATP for kick serves. Of course nearly all ATP players have a high level serving technique for each type serve. Since the ball can be tossed at any time from any place to most impact locations there may be considerable variety in use. For the OP's unknown technique...?

What the ball toss is better?

See also corresponding videos -

 

[Raul_SJ]

Interesting toss observations by Toly.

Murray and Dolgopolov have unusual tosses - can't say which type serves are being shown - but the entire serve should be examined for each type serve and the unusual characteristics noted.

What is unusual about Murray's toss ? I thought it was a typical motion, although I have not studied other motions.

Another consideration is whether one wants to finish most of the shoulder turn before releasing.

Dolgapolov releases first and then turns shoulders away from the toss, which I find uncomfortable.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Murray and Dolgopolov have unusual tosses - can't say which type serves are being shown - but the entire serve should be examined for each type serve and the unusual characteristics noted.

Not a fan Dolgopolov toss/motion. He lifts his left arm more toward the net rather than along the baseline. Most players who do that get very little coiling of the upper torso. Despite this, Dolgopolov manages to get a half-way decent coil without a super-high toss. As Raul implies, this is not easy to do (and may be uncomfortable for other players to achieve). His release point is a bit lower than most top servers. It all seems a bit rushed.

Murray has a fairly classic J-toss (or a variation of the J-toss). This is the toss motion that I learned some 40 yrs ago. Vic Braden was a huge advocate of the back in the '70s-90s. (I learned the J-toss from Vic's brother, Dan Braden). The J action is a reference to the motion of the tossing hand at the start of the tossing motion. Many ppl incorrectly surmise the the J is a reference to the path of the ball toss (after release). They would be wrong.

 

[EddieBrock]

Ignore all these insane diagrams. You can NOT think about this stuff when serving. Or even learning to serve.

Just hit the ball for a few hours. Brush up somehow. You'll figure it out. It just need to be good enough.

That is my plan for the big match. After that I'm going to try and change because having this much trouble tossing a ball is driving me crazy.

 

[EddieBrock]

Not a fan Dolgopolov toss/motion. He lifts his left arm more toward the net rather than along the baseline. Most players who do that get very little coiling of the upper torso. Despite this, Dolgopolov manages to get a half-way decent coil without a super-high toss. As Raul implies, this is not easy to do (and may be uncomfortable for other players to achieve). His release point is a bit lower than most top servers. It all seems a bit rushed.

Murray has a fairly classic J-toss (or a variation of the J-toss). This is the toss motion that I learned some 40 yrs ago. Vic Braden was a huge advocate of the back in the '70s-90s. (I learned the J-toss from Vic's brother, Dan Braden). The J action is a reference to the motion of the tossing hand at the start of the tossing motion. Many ppl incorrectly surmise the the J is a reference to the path of the ball toss (after release). They would be wrong.

My 2nd serve toss is very similar to Dolgopolov. Basically what happened was I was taught to toss dropping the tossing arm straight down into my leg at 45 degrees and then straight up for the flat, and a little right for the slice Most people seem to agree that this works well. For the kick, I've had pros tell me to toss behind the baseline and way to the left, straight up and into the court, and everything in between. A few years ago on my own I tried tossing parallel to the baseline and a few pros told me that was wrong so I went back to 45 degrees. About a year ago I tried tossing like Dolgopolov and it works better than other methods, but when I saw a video of my serve it doesn't look right and I don't feel I'm hitting as well as I could.

With a big match a few days away I'm not going to change anything major now, but this is the one major element in my game I need to fix.

 

[RetroSpin]

then straight up for the flat, and a little right for the slice Most people seem to agree that this works well.

It works well if your goal is to tip off your opponent what is coming.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

My 2nd serve toss is very similar to Dolgopolov. Basically what happened was I was taught to toss dropping the tossing arm straight down into my leg at 45 degrees and then straight up for the flat, and a little right for the slice Most people seem to agree that this works well. For the kick, I've had pros tell me to toss behind the baseline and way to the left, straight up and into the court, and everything in between. A few years ago on my own I tried tossing parallel to the baseline and a few pros told me that was wrong so I went back to 45 degrees. About a year ago I tried tossing like Dolgopolov and it works better than other methods, but when I saw a video of my serve it doesn't look right and I don't feel I'm hitting as well as I could.

With a big match a few days away I'm not going to change anything major now, but this is the one major element in my game I need to fix.

Yeah, would not change it right now. But what you describe is not optimal (if your flat serve toss is really like Dolgo's toss).

It would be much better to lift the arm and 45 degrees or less (wrt the baseline). That way you can get a decent coil and you would not tip your opponent off early. Ok to have a different toss for 2nd serve that is different than your 1st serve. It is no secret that most players will hit a different serve for their 2nd (spin) than they do for their first (less spin). IF you are lifting your arm in a forward direction, as Dolgo does, for a flat serve, then it would be difficult for you to get much coil for that serve type (unless your toss is pretty high or you can coil as rapidly as Dolgo does; not easy to do). But not sure if that is really what you are doing based on your description.

For a topspin serve or a kick serve, you do want the ball to arc more to the left (the court's left, not your left). Tossing behind the ball the baseline can work but it is not ideal. Puts more stress on your shoulder and does not allow you do drive upward and forward into the ball with your legs. Forces you to use your arm/shoulder more than you should. It would be better to place the toss a little bit forward of the baseline (as shown in post #7). You could then drive upward/forward into the ball. In this case you could lean or drive forward to get your head under the ball. Instead of keeping your head back and just tossing the ball over it.

 

[Chas Tennis]

What is unusual about Murray's toss ? I thought it was a typical motion, although I have not studied other motions.

Another consideration is whether one wants to finish most of the shoulder turn before releasing.

Dolgapolov releases first and then turns shoulders away from the toss, which I find uncomfortable.

Not a fan Dolgopolov toss/motion. He lifts his left arm more toward the net rather than along the baseline. Most players who do that get very little coiling of the upper torso. Despite this, Dolgopolov manages to get a half-way decent coil without a super-high toss. As Raul implies, this is not easy to do (and may be uncomfortable for other players to achieve). His release point is a bit lower than most top servers. It all seems a bit rushed.

Murray has a fairly classic J-toss (or a variation of the J-toss). This is the toss motion that I learned some 40 yrs ago. Vic Braden was a huge advocate of the back in the '70s-90s. (I learned the J-toss from Vic's brother, Dan Braden). The J action is a reference to the motion of the tossing hand at the start of the tossing motion. Many ppl incorrectly surmise the the J is a reference to the path of the ball toss (after release). They would be wrong.

I did not research this issue very well or know the variety that is out there. I believe that Murray's hand going away from the court, not parallel to the baseline or into the court, is unusual. Maybe SystemicAnamoly has some information on this issue and the J toss.

To study stats you need confirmed type serves and good camera angles or published research. That is a lot of work.

In general, the closer in time you get to impact the more similar serves should look because of the basic biomechanics of how racket head speed is generated. But the toss release is so much earlier than impact and the shoulder is a ball joint that works at many angles, there could be a lot of variety.

Information and descriptions for serves on the forum.

For each type serve:
1) There's what a server is actually doing - with a variety of techniques.
2) There's what the 'theoretical' average club player is doing or is said to be doing by posters. This seems totally unreliable without high speed videos for a tad of sanity. Some posters claim with confidence to know what the average club player can do.
3) There's what poster's think and describe as what they are doing without video.
4) There's what poster's interpret from high speed videos. At least everybody can see and interpret the same evidence.
5) There's what successful ATP servers are currently doing. These are the only serve techniques for which I believe reasonable information might be available. The high level techniques are widely studied and excellent research has existed for many years. Still, serves of confirmed types and stats are not easy to find.

If we mix information from #s 1 to 5 together for discussions I don't believe that we can settle anything.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I did not research this issue very well or know the variety that is out there. I believe that Murray's hand going away from the court, not parallel to the baseline or into the court, is unusual. Maybe SystemicAnamoly has some information on this issue and the J toss...

I would still characterize Murray's tossing arm action as "parallel" to the baseline. We are not talking about a pure/geometric definition of "parallel" here. When we say "parallel to the baseline" we are talking about a general direction. In the GIF above, we see that Murray's hand lifts in the general direction of the camera rather than out toward the net. This is what tennis coaches mean by "parallel".

Note also that "parallel" does not mean that the arm lifts in a pure vertical direction. It is always at some small angle off the vertical. If we did lift the arm in an actual vertical direction, it would be difficult to put the ball forward into the court. Instead, the ball would stay just behind the baseline. This is not what happens on high level serves.

 

[EddieBrock]

Yeah, would not change it right now. But what you describe is not optimal (if your flat serve toss is really like Dolgo's toss).

It would be much better to lift the arm and 45 degrees or less (wrt the baseline). That way you can get a decent coil and you would not tip your opponent off early. Ok to have a different toss for 2nd serve that is different than your 1st serve. It is no secret that most players will hit a different serve for their 2nd (spin) than they do for their first (less spin). IF you are lifting your arm in a forward direction, as Dolgo does, for a flat serve, then it would be difficult for you to get much coil for that serve type (unless your toss is pretty high or you can coil as rapidly as Dolgo does; not easy to do). But not sure if that is really what you are doing based on your description.

For a topspin serve or a kick serve, you do want the ball to arc more to the left (the court's left, not your left). Tossing behind the ball the baseline can work but it is not ideal. Puts more stress on your shoulder and does not allow you do drive upward and forward into the ball with your legs. Forces you to use your arm/shoulder more than you should. It would be better to place the toss a little bit forward of the baseline (as shown in post #7). You could then drive upward/forward into the ball. In this case you could lean or drive forward to get your head under the ball. Instead of keeping your head back and just tossing the ball over it.

On the first serve I'm pretty much tossing at 45 degrees and straight up so it would land back in my hand. On the 2nd (kick) I'm tossing more like Dolgo and letting it drift slightly to the left, so my arm in not completely straight out. I've also found that when I drop my arm I have more trouble with the toss than if I keep it bent and just lift straight up, so that's what I will do in the tournament. I know it doesn't look at smooth, but I need results right now. I definitely want to toss in a way I can drive up towards the ball with my legs.

Aside from my arm being bent it's similar to the girl demonstrating for Chris Everet here:

I think something like 3:15 on this video would be better since it would allow for a better leg drive and make it easier to stay sideways. I'm not sure why I was told doing this was wrong a few years ago. Again, for now I'm going to leave this alone and just play the match, but going forward I think switching makes sense.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I would still characterize Murray's tossing arm action as "parallel" to the baseline. We are not talking about a pure/geometric definition of "parallel" here. When we say "parallel to the baseline" we are talking about a general direction. In the GIF above, we see that Murray's hand lifts in the general direction of the camera rather than out toward the net. This is what tennis coaches mean by "parallel".

Note also that "parallel" does not mean that the arm lifts in a pure vertical direction. It is always at some small angle off the vertical. If we did lift the arm in an actual vertical direction, it would be difficult to put the ball forward into the court. Instead, the ball would stay just behind the baseline. This is not what happens on high level serves.

Click Murray's picture to make it larger. His hand goes away from the net. I would not call that 'parallel to the baseline' but refer to the video for communication.

I don't have the stats on what is being done or a good estimate of Murray's arm angle here. Looks different than the GIF of Murray to me in that the hand is going backward more. Dogopolov's serve has a very low toss - a very important point for tosses.

Now if we had the confirmed kick serves of 10 different ATP servers seen from the same camera angles we could get a first cut of the stats out there.........

Obviously Murray and Dolgopolov might have very different tosses for kick serves.

Any idea of the % of servers that use the 'J toss'?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

This 'toss behind the head for the kick serve' issue keeps posting because people don't back it up their beliefs with high speed video. It is not correct and misleading. Maybe it works for other unidentified techniques.

IMO it works because breaking the habit of serving for a flat serve (ie. to slightly right of head), to be over or slightly left of head is a big habit to break.... so exaggerating to be "behind the head" worked for me... but i reality i just ended up chasing/tilting awkwardly in my learning phase.

nowawadays i try to do a similar toss for all my serves (from the receivers perspective), and hit all my serves from there my moving my head appropriately

 

[eelhc]

IMO it works because breaking the habit of serving for a flat serve (ie. to slightly right of head), to be over or slightly left of head is a big habit to break.... so exaggerating to be "behind the head" worked for me... but i reality i just ended up chasing/tilting awkwardly in my learning phase.

nowawadays i try to do a similar toss for all my serves (from the receivers perspective), and hit all my serves from there my moving my head appropriately

I like to think I'm hiding my serve with the same toss but in reality I cannot constantly bend the knees, arch the back to hit the kick off a toss behind me. One too many times and I'm not coming back up.