How to toss for kick serve?

D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
I like to think I'm hiding my serve with the same toss but in reality I cannot constantly bend the knees, arch the back to hit the kick off a toss behind me. One too many times and I'm not coming back up.
remember, it's not really the same toss, just relative to the returner it is..
a returer cannot detect a toss that is further/closer to them.
and it's hard to detect if someone is moving themselves further under the ball
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
I like to think I'm hiding my serve with the same toss but in reality I cannot constantly bend the knees, arch the back to hit the kick off a toss behind me. One too many times and I'm not coming back up.

Keep in mind that your 2nd serve toss need not be the same as your 1st serve toss. Better if they are not. Take a close look at top pro servers. Their 2nd serve toss is NOT the same as the 1st serve toss. If you look at their serve from the front or the back, you can see that the toss placement will differ by 2-3 feet or more.

https://www.thoughtco.com/same-toss-for-different-spin-serves-3208245

It is no secret that most players will hit a flatter serve for the 1st serve and some type of spin or kick serve for the 2nd serve. No need to disguise that fact. What you really want to disguise is your serve placement (and not necessarily the serve type). Be sure that you do not have any "tells" that give away serve placement.

If you use a different grip or orient your body differently for T serves than for wide serves, you opponent can pick up on that. During his playing years, Agassi discovered that Boris Becker had a tell for his serve placement. Boris would stick out the tip of his tongue on serves. The placement of his tongue indicated the direction of his serve.

 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Confirmed kick serve. Tossing has to be defined at the time of release with the body & head positions at the time of release.

I have seen instructional kick serve video where the toss truly looks behind/above the head. But that causes a more upright body jump and little forward motion. There may also be variations of the high level kick serve out there? I don't have many pieces of evidence but the overhead videos that I have seen show the toss release and then the head moving forward 2-3 feet for impact.

Another picture showing the the ball 'is not tossed over the head' and the head moves forward. Side views and overhead views show the head movement better than this behind view picture. (behind views shrink the dimension toward or away from the camera.)
300a445.jpg




This 'toss behind the head for the kick serve' issue keeps posting because people don't back it up their beliefs with high speed video. It is not correct and misleading. Maybe it works for other unidentified techniques.

"Toss behind the head" looks to be accurate with the above pics. Contact is made slightly behind the head (right to left perspective) on the "Topspin Serve". If the ball were to drop, it would land behind the head.

The "Topspin Serve" pic is about as far leftwards as I have seen with high level servers. The left pic (toss more towards 11 o'clock) is actually the ideal toss position for a Twist Serve or Kick Serve, so I don't know why the left pic is labeled Topspin and the right pic (toss more towards 12 o'clock) is labeled Kick. It should be reversed.

Edit:
I realize that you may have possibly been referring to "behind" with regard to the front/back perspective. In that case, I have never heard anyone advocate tossing behind the head. At the most, the toss would drop right on top of where your head was at toss release. Advanced players will toss further into the court for kick serves.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
"Toss behind the head" looks to be accurate with the above pics. Contact is made slightly behind the head (right to left perspective) on the "Topspin Serve". If the ball were to drop, it would land behind the head.

The "Topspin Serve" pic is about as far leftwards as I have seen with high level servers. The left pic (toss more towards 11 o'clock) is actually the ideal toss position for a Twist Serve or Kick Serve, so I don't know why the left pic is labeled Topspin and the right pic (toss more towards 12 o'clock) is labeled Kick. It should be reversed.

Edit:
I realize that you may have possibly been referring to "behind" with regard to the front/back perspective. In that case, I have never heard anyone advocate tossing behind the head. At the most, the toss would drop right on top of where your head was at toss release. Advanced players will toss further into the court for kick serves.

We disagree - because the head moves forward between the time of toss release and the time of impact. Forward head movement illustrated in this thread.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
We disagree - because the head moves forward between the time of toss release and the time of impact. Forward head movement illustrated in this thread.

I agree the head moves forward into the court after toss release. By your convention, we are referencing the head position at moment of release.

The toss would land on top of the head (head position at moment of release). It would not land behind that initial head position.

I've heard coaches say that if you were not to hit the kick toss, the club player's kick serve toss should land approximately on the baseline (or further forward). Notice that Murray's head is maybe a foot or two behind baseline at time of release. Advanced players will tend to toss more forward into the court and their toss will land more forward inside the baseline.

In either case, I don't see that the unhit toss would ever land behind the initial head position. At most, it would land on the baseline .

gplMDgr.png
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
......................it would land on the baseline .

gplMDgr.png

What does this picture tell you? What does the line indicate?

------------------------------------------------------

quote from above post.

"The toss would land on top of the head (head position at moment of release). It would not land behind that initial head position." ??

Doesn't this depend on both the trajectory of the toss and the head movement?
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
In order to contact the ball in the proper way for a kick serve, the racket face has to be closed and also have another angle & direction as seen in Cross & Lindsey's book Technical Tennis. Long thread with references on this interesting subject. Toly had some very good posts also.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/kick-serve-ball-contact-position.570272/page-2

Seeing this racket contact detail in high speed videos is not so easy. This thread discusses the issue.

The ball will not kick to the right without the spins of a kick serve.

You may practice forever but you first need the right spins and racket contact.
 

Bud G.

New User
This is an old thread, but it’s interesting to me since I also wrestled with this. My comment pertains only to 45 degree tossers, which the OP is. Short answer: I am a proponent of the second option he suggested. That is, bringing the tossing arm up the exact same path as for a first serve but releasing it later. This is what it looks to me like professionals who are 45 degree tossers do, and it works.

The alternative he mentioned (moving his tossing arm to the left, i.e., more in front of him) could be made to work if that is more comfortable. There probably are a few pros who have their arms there, but they hit their first serves from there also. That is, they are not really 45 degree tossers. I don’t think I’ve seen any pro start their toss arm at 45 degrees and then move it left in this fashion.

One last thing: sometimes just for fun, on a second serve, I’ll start from a position where my entire body is pointing slightly more to the right than the 45 degree point. In other words, a little more back facing the opponent, so not technically 45 degrees anymore. The toss therefore comes more from the side which promotes the right to left (for a right hander) path that most teachers like to see for a kick serve. It also promotes a better shoulder turn and I get a little more on my racket speed this way. Unfortunately, trying to hit a flat serve from here is uncomfortable for me, so I never do that. I admit that I don’t ever recall seeing a pro vary their starting positions for the first and second serve, so this does violate that.
 
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EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
This is an old thread, but it’s interesting to me since I also wrestled with this. My comment pertains only to 45 degree tossers, which the OP is. Short answer: I am a proponent of the second option he suggested. That is, bringing the tossing arm up the exact same path as for a first serve but releasing it later. This is what it looks to me like professionals who are 45 degree tossers do, and it works.

The alternative he mentioned (moving his tossing arm to the left, i.e., more in front of him) could be made to work if that is more comfortable. There probably are a few pros who have their arms there, but they hit their first serves from there also. That is, they are not really 45 degree tossers. I don’t think I’ve seen any pro start their toss arm at 45 degrees and then move it left in this fashion.

One last thing: sometimes just for fun, on a second serve, I’ll start from a position where my entire body is pointing slightly more to the right than the 45 degree point. In other words, a little more back facing the opponent, so not technically 45 degrees anymore. The toss therefore comes more from the side which promotes the right to left (for a right hander) path that most teachers like to see for a kick serve. It also promotes a better shoulder turn and I get a little more on my racket speed this way. Unfortunately, trying to hit a flat serve from here is uncomfortable for me, so I never do that. I admit that I don’t ever recall seeing a pro vary their starting positions for the first and second serve, so this does violate that.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread!

I was really surprised there wasn't any instruction online for this. What I ended up doing was what you said for fun, which is tossing more parallel to the baseline. My toss now is like halfway between the 45 and parallel to the baseline, which makes the kick serve easier. You're right that the tradeoff is it's harder to hit a flat serve, but if I push off my with legs and rotate I can still it.

The reason I switched was to make sure I had a better shoulder turn and racket path on the kick. Definitely holding onto the ball longer for the kick serve works as well. On the deuce side I don't close my body as much as the ad side.
 

Bud G.

New User
That’s funny. For me, hitting a flat serve from there created the issue analogous to (but the exact reverse of) your original post. For me, the natural toss arm arc from there is perfect for a kicker, but didn’t lead to a ball position far enough into the court for a flat serve. That’s why I abandoned it. I might experiment and see if I can comfortably adjust something and get it there, since that is working for you. Also, like you said, it’s funny how on YouTube there are probably a hundred videos on the importance of varying the ball position, but none on the methods of how to do it. I ended up just slowing down videos of various professionals.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Compare your kick serve technique to ATP players. The only model or descriptions are for a high level technique.

Some instructors may get good rec level results using a slightly different technique. Do not use word descriptions as a guide for any sub-motion of the serve but look at high speed videos of high level kick serves.
Single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
That’s funny. For me, hitting a flat serve from there created the issue analogous to (but the exact reverse of) your original post. For me, the natural toss arm arc from there is perfect for a kicker, but didn’t lead to a ball position far enough into the court for a flat serve. That’s why I abandoned it. I might experiment and see if I can comfortably adjust something and get it there, since that is working for you. Also, like you said, it’s funny how on YouTube there are probably a hundred videos on the importance of varying the ball position, but none on the methods of how to do it. I ended up just slowing down videos of various professionals.

It's harder for me to hit a flat serve from that position too due to the body position being more sideways. With the toss though you can just move your tossing arm more towards the court to get it further in front.

It's definitely weird there is no instruction on how to get it there. On the kick serve video from Daily Tennis Lesson he says the ends justifies the means so however you get the toss in the right place to do it. I even asked my coach and he seemed taken back. He was like "just toss it there". The thing is it felt so unnatural before with the 45 degree toss to get it to the right spot.
 

Bud G.

New User
That adjustment makes sense. My body always insists that I kick the tires on any change so it has the chance to let me know whether it agrees!
 

Bud G.

New User
Following up ... I did a brief session today for the purpose of checking out this first serve method. I see exactly what you were talking about. It is not, at all, more difficult from a “skill” perspective, but may be slightly more physically taxing. Super interesting.
 
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