How to visualise the lag and whipping motion on the forehand and 2 handed backhand.

Dragy

Legend
He was focused on body rotation ending, and passing momentum to arm, which I agree with ... but pointing out the biggest LIQUID part probably happens at the wrist. The wrist tends to be key in many sports where the best make it look effortless.
Yeah and all he finally came up with was this BS about forearm creating faster RHS? And then "demonstrating" "wrist-only" hit of the ball with a clear all-arm move + some wrist back-forth hinging? Oh why you brought those 16+ mins on here old man (clever me stopped at 4:32).
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Yeah and all he finally came up with was this BS about forearm creating faster RHS? And then "demonstrating" "wrist-only" hit of the ball with a clear all-arm move + some wrist back-forth hinging? Oh why you brought those 16+ mins on here old man (clever me stopped at 4:32).

This (your) post was enough reason (entertainment) for me. 8-B(y) How the heck are you doing?
 

Digital Atheist

Hall of Fame
Agree with Pic#1. The camera angle is misleading. With the WTA-style, the strings never face down on the forward swing. Serena is not "Patting The Dog". She is still taking the raquet behind the back.

However, with Pic#2, Serena and Dkok both look to have significant wrist lag (wrist extension). Is it possible to have significant wrist lag with WTA style?

:unsure:

Caroline Garcia springs to mind, although her forehand is interesting in as much as she uses her off arm more like the guys (just watch any match highlights video on YT) and often at a point in her forward swing, her strings do face the ground on most forehands. Motion blur is a pain but you can frame advance the forehand at 3:36 and still see good lag.

 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Grinding some red clay, striving to rebuild confidence for high RHS against those crazy up-and-down bounces. Shall be good tennis summer. How are you?

Enjoy the clay and don’t hit over the shrubbery on the bad bounces. 8-B I have conceded that I have to play more doubles, so have a weekly doubles match, and will soon add at least one more a week. I have moved to ad side so I can try and groove a 2hbh cc ros.

Yes ... hopefully a good summer of tennis for both of us. I’m ready for May to be over ... record rain, tornadoes and floods.
 

a12345

Professional
Your body rotation isn't even blowing your skirt up 8-B


Where this guy omitted the key factor of the wrist snap, is how its created. You cant just use your forearm muscle on its own.

This is how you can demonstrate how the wrist snap works akin to the Brian Gordon video talking about Stretch Shorten Cycle.

Put your right arm in front of you, palm facing up.
Actively bend your wrist back as far as it will go, then actively pull your wrist back using your forearm muscles, as fast as you can so your fingers are pointing to the sky - how fast can you do it? how much power is there?

Now use your Stretch Shorten Cycle:

Put your right arm in front of you.
Use your left hand to bend your fingers of your right hand and the wrist, as far back as it will go. (notice how your wrist cocks back further than what your right hand can do on its own without any help.)

Now on your right arm, as before, actively try to pull back your wrist using your forearm muscle, however youre still using your left hand to resist any movement of your wrist and its pulling back the other way.
....Now pull away your left hand.

Your wrist will snap back at a super quick speed.

Unfortunately in tennis you cannot have someone standing behind you holding your racket back whilst you are trying to pull forward, and then letting it go.

So what your body turn is doing is recreating this in another away. Youre kind of using the weight of the racket, coupled with your fast body turn to bend your wrist back. (like you were doing with your left hand).

Now as you rapidly decelerate and stop turning, this is like taking your left hand away in the demonstration, and the racket snaps forward (but not fully forwards like the demo, in tennis the snap is much much smaller as you can imagine, your wrist only needs to move a small distance to change the angle of your racket head by 45 degrees. ).
 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Where this guy omitted the key factor of the wrist snap, is how its created. You cant just use your forearm muscle on its own.

This is how you can demonstrate how the wrist snap works akin to the Brian Gordon video talking about Stretch Shorten Cycle.

Put your right arm in front of you, palm facing up.
Actively bend your wrist back as far as it will go, then actively pull your wrist back using your forearm muscles, as fast as you can so your fingers are pointing to the sky - how fast can you do it? how much power is there?

Now use your Stretch Shorten Cycle:

Put your right arm in front of you.
Use your left hand to bend your fingers of your right hand and the wrist, as far back as it will go. (notice how your wrist cocks back further than what your right hand can do on its own without any help.)

Now on your right arm, as before, actively try to pull back your wrist using your forearm muscle, however youre still using your left hand to resist any movement of your wrist and its pulling back the other way.
....Now pull away your left hand.

Your wrist will snap back at a super quick speed.

Unfortunately in tennis you cannot have someone standing behind you holding your racket back whilst you are trying to pull forward, and then letting it go.

So what your body turn is doing is recreating this in another away. Youre kind of using the weight of the racket, coupled with your fast body turn to bend your wrist back. (like you were doing with your left hand).

Now as you rapidly decelerate and stop turning, this is like taking your left hand away in the demonstration, and the racket snaps forward (but not fully forwards like the demo, in tennis the snap is much much smaller as you can imagine, your wrist only needs to move a small distance to change the angle of your racket head by 45 degrees. ).

I will have to pass ... post TE with small lag, Volkl with fb Velocity @52 keeps me on the courts. 8-B But ... still very smooth ... might say liquid at the wrist.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Where this guy omitted the key factor of the wrist snap, is how its created. You cant just use your forearm muscle on its own.

This is how you can demonstrate how the wrist snap works akin to the Brian Gordon video talking about Stretch Shorten Cycle.

Put your right arm in front of you, palm facing up.
Actively bend your wrist back as far as it will go, then actively pull your wrist back using your forearm muscles, as fast as you can so your fingers are pointing to the sky - how fast can you do it? how much power is there?

Now use your Stretch Shorten Cycle:

Put your right arm in front of you.
Use your left hand to bend your fingers of your right hand and the wrist, as far back as it will go. (notice how your wrist cocks back further than what your right hand can do on its own without any help.)

Now on your right arm, as before, actively try to pull back your wrist using your forearm muscle, however youre still using your left hand to resist any movement of your wrist and its pulling back the other way.
....Now pull away your left hand.

Your wrist will snap back at a super quick speed.

Unfortunately in tennis you cannot have someone standing behind you holding your racket back whilst you are trying to pull forward, and then letting it go.

So what your body turn is doing is recreating this in another away. Youre kind of using the weight of the racket, coupled with your fast body turn to bend your wrist back. (like you were doing with your left hand).

Now as you rapidly decelerate and stop turning, this is like taking your left hand away in the demonstration, and the racket snaps forward (but not fully forwards like the demo, in tennis the snap is much much smaller as you can imagine, your wrist only needs to move a small distance to change the angle of your racket head by 45 degrees. ).

Its more shoulder rotation and forearm pronation than snap, well it does kind of snap.
But i still disagree that you have to stop yout body, the kinetic chain before the snap already slows one after another and ur arm also slows extremely fast (toeards the target) when it curves inside the body and thats when it releases or snap as you say.

You claim you have to stop ur body while i say it happens naturally and more smoothly.

I guess we will always disagree here hehe
 

FiReFTW

Legend
@a12345 infact since u like experiments, try this... i just tried it.

Grab ur racquet ot something else similar.

Hold ur arm straight sideways from ur body with object in hand.

Now have a fairly relaxed and loose wrist.

Now dont do anything with ur body, just pull the arm fast forward like if u swung.

If you do it right ur object should lag behind and pull ur forearm muscles and then as ur arm curves inside it should release or snap the stretched muscles.

No need to stop ur body the curve i side almost instantly stops the forward momentum of the arm.

Thats how pro players get the snap amd massive rhs when on the run amd they can only swing their arm with no body involved.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
@a12345 infact since u like experiments, try this... i just tried it.

Grab ur racquet ot something else similar.

Hold ur arm straight sideways from ur body with object in hand.

Now have a fairly relaxed and loose wrist.

Now dont do anything with ur body, just pull the arm fast forward like if u swung.

If you do it right ur object should lag behind and pull ur forearm muscles and then as ur arm curves inside it should release or snap the stretched muscles.

No need to stop ur body the curve i side almost instantly stops the forward momentum of the arm.

Thats how pro players get the snap amd massive rhs when on the run amd they can only swing their arm with no body involved.

"Before the forearm slows down, the upper arm slows down to transfer its energy to the forearm. And before that, the upper torso slows down to transfer its energy to the upper arm."

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/doublependulum.php
 

Kevo

Legend
I was actually experimenting with this before teaching lessons on Tuesday. I'm so used to doing what I normally do in different situations that I don't pay attention to little details like this until it comes up or I'm working through an issue with a student or something.

What I felt when trying to intentionally activate some forearm for a more active wrist snap is a definite increase in power, but a little bit of uncertainty on the timing. Sometimes I would get a nice hard shot exactly like I wanted, and sometimes my contact would be a tad early or a tad late. But there is a definite and obvious benefit to power when pulling the wrist through with the forearm muscles right before contact. I'd guess it was easily a 20% improvement in power. And, just like he mentions in the video the extra power comes with very little effort compared to the overall stroke.

The other thing that I noticed is that I use the wrist like that fairly often when I'm rushed or stretched and don't have much time to generate pop with the legs or torso. Even when hitting on the wall I noticed that I do that without thinking when the ball comes off really fast and I'm rushed. The only downside I see really is lack of control due to the more stringent timing needs. I would guess that could be mitigated effectively with some intentional practice on this specific part of the forehand technique.

The other thing I noticed when I was hitting backhands is it's very hard to duplicate this sort of thing on the backhand side with a one hander. I did experiment a little with a wrist "snap" and also a shoulder "snap" and it does seem to work, but the coordination is a little more difficult so I think I am going to have to play around with it some more before I decide it it's worth fiddling with. The main problem I see at this point is you still have to have the prep and the spacing with the ball or the backhand just doesn't work well, and if you can get the spacing then you can take a full swing already, so the snap seems like more risk than it's worth for the gain on that side.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
"Before the forearm slows down, the upper arm slows down to transfer its energy to the forearm. And before that, the upper torso slows down to transfer its energy to the upper arm."

http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/doublependulum.php

That article is too complicated and too much physics for me haha, i rather focus on what im doing in real life by feel.

The kinetic chain does feel like segments that fire and transfer to the next link, but doesnt feel like u fire legs and them u stop them etc... for every next part, it all slows down and stops and transfers naturaly to me.
 

Kevo

Legend
A lot of people like to say things should happen naturally or automatically, or however they phrase it, but the fact is we learn our motor skills, and we can unlearn them too. What some people feel is natural or automatic is something they learned somehow. People who don't walk for a long time because of an injury have to learn how to walk again. This actually happened to my brother when he was young. He broke his leg and spent about two months in a half body cast. Once he got the cast off he spent 2-3 weeks figuring out how to walk again.

There are others that like to put caveats on the things happen naturally idea. If you do this and then that, then this other thing will happen on it's own. This is a lot closer to reality and makes more sense. Your body is a like a bunch of levers and springs or rubber bands. If you wind things up they do tend to unwind on their own. Of course the problem with this simplified analogy is that people like to exert control and they will often work against themselves with muscle action at the wrong time, or opposed to the "natural" unwinding of the body.

So if things are working well and seem to be happening naturally to you, that's probably good. But, if you aren't getting the results you want, it's not always good to overlook those "natural" parts as there may be a problem hiding in there. For many beginners almost everything that is happening naturally is wrong.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
That article is too complicated and too much physics for me haha, i rather focus on what im doing in real life by feel.

The kinetic chain does feel like segments that fire and transfer to the next link, but doesnt feel like u fire legs and them u stop them etc... for every next part, it all slows down and stops and transfers naturaly to me.

Yeah ... just read the article for explanation of how a double pendulum works. I blew off the calculations also. The key is the "slowing down" of pendulum #1 ... I got caught up in the complete "pause", and that isn't the important bits IMO. I think the double pendulum analogy is a good one. To me, when Fed's arm moves forward past the shoulder line before contact ... the torso/shoulders were pendulum #1, and arm pendulum #2, and racquet pendulum #3. Rod through in upper arm, elbow, lower arm ... a bit too much to digest.

I don't view the stuff below the shoulders as double pendulum with segments slowing ... just one big everything firing from the ground. That puts me at odds with k-chain instruction below the shoulders. I can live with that. 8-B The entire torso rotates over a hip (sometimes appears to be both at same time, but not often) at the same time ... in every pro video other than all arm swings.

Couldn't agree more ... playing tournaments isn't the only way to learn to win in tennis, but WAY ahead of what comes in second.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
In any case its very hard to know exactly what ur doing it all feels natural and smooth on every stroke, hard to know 1st person how and what,you just do and feel.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
A lot of people like to say things should happen naturally or automatically, or however they phrase it, but the fact is we learn our motor skills, and we can unlearn them too. What some people feel is natural or automatic is something they learned somehow. People who don't walk for a long time because of an injury have to learn how to walk again. This actually happened to my brother when he was young. He broke his leg and spent about two months in a half body cast. Once he got the cast off he spent 2-3 weeks figuring out how to walk again.

There are others that like to put caveats on the things happen naturally idea. If you do this and then that, then this other thing will happen on it's own. This is a lot closer to reality and makes more sense. Your body is a like a bunch of levers and springs or rubber bands. If you wind things up they do tend to unwind on their own. Of course the problem with this simplified analogy is that people like to exert control and they will often work against themselves with muscle action at the wrong time, or opposed to the "natural" unwinding of the body.

So if things are working well and seem to be happening naturally to you, that's probably good. But, if you aren't getting the results you want, it's not always good to overlook those "natural" parts as there may be a problem hiding in there. For many beginners almost everything that is happening naturally is wrong.

Yes ... I have thought/posted the same thing. I would think the lion share of a player's needed education is the "winding up". Of course the wrinkle of going into racquet lag in forward swing like Fed does complicates that ... do we call that "racquet winding up" during the rest unwinding?

fyi ... after 40 years of 1hbh, and 3+ of 2hbh, IMO any action at the wrist (wrists with 2hbh) is WAY easier with the 2hbh.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
In any case its very hard to know exactly what ur doing it all feels natural and smooth on every stroke, hard to know 1st person how and what,you just do and feel.

Knowing what you are doing matters very little compared to getting the ball inside the lines.
 

a12345

Professional
@a12345 infact since u like experiments, try this... i just tried it.

Grab ur racquet ot something else similar.

Hold ur arm straight sideways from ur body with object in hand.

Now have a fairly relaxed and loose wrist.

Now dont do anything with ur body, just pull the arm fast forward like if u swung.

If you do it right ur object should lag behind and pull ur forearm muscles and then as ur arm curves inside it should release or snap the stretched muscles.

No need to stop ur body the curve i side almost instantly stops the forward momentum of the arm.

Thats how pro players get the snap amd massive rhs when on the run amd they can only swing their arm with no body involved.

You can get a little bit, but not much.

Now repeat the same experiment, arm straight sideways holding a racket, this time youre not moving your arm at all but your body - try and recreate that lag and snap using only your body.

How does your body move?

Youll see it moves in a fast turn fast stop motion, kind of jerky.

And if you drive your body turn really fast youll feel a massive difference in speed and power, compared to just the arm swing.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
You can get a little bit, but not much.

Now repeat the same experiment, arm straight sideways holding a racket, this time youre not moving your arm at all but your body - try and recreate that lag and snap using only your body.

How does your body move?

Youll see it moves in a fast turn fast stop motion, kind of jerky.

And if you drive your body turn really fast youll feel a massive difference in speed and power, compared to just the arm swing.

Of course you get alot more with ur whole body, my point was that body is not a requirement for this, and that at least to me it seems that this snap happens when the a reaches its further front point and curves in instead of the body halting alltho the body kind of slows naturally unless you rotate it around the plane completely but that feels odd, but that would kind of describe that type 1 swing where you really just rotate the body around and the arm is an extension.

But then again there are many subconcious things that happen without u being aware.
 

Kevo

Legend
fyi ... after 40 years of 1hbh, and 3+ of 2hbh, IMO any action at the wrist (wrists with 2hbh) is WAY easier with the 2hbh.

Yes, the 2hbh is much better for wristy hitting. The one hander I feel has a clear advantage in power and spin, for me at least, but I usually recommend my students to go with the 2hbh unless they just feel way more awkward and uncomfortable with it. You really have to be prepared to bend your knees and hit earlier than you might like if you get caught out on the 1hbh. There's very little chance the old flick the wrist maneuver is going to do much for you on the 1hbh.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Yes, the 2hbh is much better for wristy hitting. The one hander I feel has a clear advantage in power and spin, for me at least, but I usually recommend my students to go with the 2hbh unless they just feel way more awkward and uncomfortable with it. You really have to be prepared to bend your knees and hit earlier than you might like if you get caught out on the 1hbh. There's very little chance the old flick the wrist maneuver is going to do much for you on the 1hbh.

Maybe a clarification for what I mean by "wristy" on 2hbh. I mean taking advantage of the two hands working together in the late release of lag near contact. As a right hander, I already am actively hitting with left arm/hand while at same time holding butt end of grip with right hand. I find it versatile to add a bit more release/snap by subtle variations in active left hand and resisting right hand. Not every 2hbh ... but it's there to get easy addition of rhs with both hands working together with loose wrists. I always thought dropping the racquet head (lag) was just about spin, but ended up being easy free rhs (with good unit turn ... I can't hit an all arm 2hbh no matter what I do with hands).

I hit more pace and spin with my 2hbh than my 1hbh, and have both closed and open stance options (1hbh has to be closed for me). I have learned what I would need to do to add more lag to my 1hbh (I like watching Wawrinka ... both forearm/racquet angle release and arm roll) ... but those hours are now 2hbh hours.

Murray below is a good angle for what I mean about both hands working together to release/snap racquet around. I think one can vary the "active" in 2hbhs much easier than 1hbh. For example, when you hear "x just used a lot of left hand to pull off that sharp cc angle".

 

a12345

Professional
Of course you get alot more with ur whole body, my point was that body is not a requirement for this, and that at least to me it seems that this snap happens when the a reaches its further front point and curves in instead of the body halting alltho the body kind of slows naturally unless you rotate it around the plane completely but that feels odd, but that would kind of describe that type 1 swing where you really just rotate the body around and the arm is an extension.

But then again there are many subconcious things that happen without u being aware.

Ok yeh I see what you mean.

So you mean at the end of the body turn, the arm is pulled through and only towards the end of the arm pulling through, it slows down, and the racket snaps forwards. i.e the end of the body turn doesnt directly result in the beginning of the racket snapping forward, as there is a movement in between, that is, the arm moving forwards.

Theres a couple of ways you could look at this and it could be both of these are happening.

1) As the body turn ends, this not only stretched the forehand muscle but also the chest and shoulder muscles.

So the body turn created a SSC with the shoulder muscles > as it ends, this releases the arm , which as its slung forwards is still creating an SSC with the wrist > which then gets released as the arm slows down at the end.

So the end of the body turn releases the shoulder > which throws the arm forward> which then releases the wrist.

2) The force of the body turn drives the wrist back as far as it can go lets say 100% backwards. As it stops and you then pull your arm through, it could be that whilst the racket doesnt flip immediately, the release has already begun.

The start of the arm pulling through may already be leaking in terms of stretch, thats is if it was 100% back during the body turn, it might be 90% as your pulling your arm through > then 70% > then 40%, as you pull your arm through towards contact.
 
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Kevo

Legend
Maybe a clarification for what I mean by "wristy" on 2hbh. I mean taking advantage of the two hands working together in the late release of lag near contact.

Yeah, I think it's better for all kinds of "wristyness". Normal and compromised. For me the 2hbh has benefits in the later action of the stroke and the 1hbh has it's benefits in the early action. Having the shoulder as a short powerful hinged lever early in the stroke makes for some easy power potential where the 2hbh is constrained in the early action by having to deal with both arms.

However if you have long enough arms, you can get some of that early action back and have a really strong 2h stroke. I think some tall skinny guys might actually benefit from doing 2h on both sides like some of the ladies have done. Of course you have to have the coordination to pull it off and the ladies may be a bit more graceful in that regard, or they just have to adapt to it earlier because they lack the same strength perhaps.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Ok yeh I see what you mean.

So you mean at the end of the body turn, the arm is pulled through and only towards the end of the arm pulling through, it slows down, and the racket snaps forwards. i.e the end of the body turn doesnt directly result in the beginning of the racket snapping forward, as there is a movement in between, that is, the arm moving forwards.

Theres a couple of ways you could look at this and it could be both of these are happening.

1) As the body turn ends, this not only stretched the forehand muscle but also the chest and shoulder muscles.

So the body turn created a SSC with the shoulder muscles > as it ends, this releases the arm , which as its slung forwards is still creating an SSC with the wrist > which then gets released as the arm slows down at the end.

So the end of the body turn releases the shoulder > which throws the arm forward> which then releases the wrist.

2) The force of the body turn drives the the wrist back as far as it can go lets say 100% backwards. As it stops and you then pull your arm through, it could be that whilst the racket doesnt flip immediately, the release has already begun.

The start of the arm pulling through may already be leaking in terms of stretch, thats is if it was 100% back during the body turn, it might be 90% as your pulling your arm through > then 70% > then 40%, as you pull your arm through towards contact.

Yeah you finally get what I mean haha, but many things happen subconsciously so hard to say, it just feels like that to me in 1st person.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, I think it's better for all kinds of "wristyness". Normal and compromised. For me the 2hbh has benefits in the later action of the stroke and the 1hbh has it's benefits in the early action. Having the shoulder as a short powerful hinged lever early in the stroke makes for some easy power potential where the 2hbh is constrained in the early action by having to deal with both arms.

However if you have long enough arms, you can get some of that early action back and have a really strong 2h stroke. I think some tall skinny guys might actually benefit from doing 2h on both sides like some of the ladies have done. Of course you have to have the coordination to pull it off and the ladies may be a bit more graceful in that regard, or they just have to adapt to it earlier because they lack the same strength perhaps.

My 2hbh has a get out of constrained jail free card from years of c&c singles ... 1hbh slice 8-B(y)
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
I tried out severe wrist lag on slow bouncing waist-high sitters near the net. Practically all wrist. No use of knees or trunk rotation, etc.
Still get huge power just from the wrist.
This might be the way to go. Use the wrist instead of the large muscle groups for sitters.
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Guys,
There seem to be two general themes in this thread. The exact nature of the biomechanics and what is going on with every body segment at every split second. Then the quest to actually hit a great forehand. I think the biomechanics of the so-called kinetic chain are fascinating and worth understanding. I don't believe though that this info is the route to a great forehand whatever your level. In fact, focusing on the excruciating details is usually counterproductive.

Here is an article that shows my approach working with two players who are at different levels and seem to have very different forehands. This article was based on a presentation I did at the invitation of the USTA at the Tennis Teachers Conference at the Open in 2018.

It's a blueprint for anyone to use simple positions that will produce the key elements of the so-called modern forehand.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public...dell/modern_tennis/two_forehands/?public=true
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Yeah and all he finally came up with was this BS about forearm creating faster RHS? And then "demonstrating" "wrist-only" hit of the ball with a clear all-arm move + some wrist back-forth hinging? Oh why you brought those 16+ mins on here old man (clever me stopped at 4:32).

Old man is back ... hehehe ... Part Deux:

He sounds like me around 3:45ish ... there is some arm muscling going on around these parts 8-B


So ... about this Delpo minimal lag :eek:

vMH7IdVl.jpg
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Guys,
There seem to be two general themes in this thread. The exact nature of the biomechanics and what is going on with every body segment at every split second. Then the quest to actually hit a great forehand. I think the biomechanics of the so-called kinetic chain are fascinating and worth understanding. I don't believe though that this info is the route to a great forehand whatever your level. In fact, focusing on the excruciating details is usually counterproductive.

Here is an article that shows my approach working with two players who are at different levels and seem to have very different forehands. This article was based on a presentation I did at the invitation of the USTA at the Tennis Teachers Conference at the Open in 2018.

It's a blueprint for anyone to use simple positions that will produce the key elements of the so-called modern forehand.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public...dell/modern_tennis/two_forehands/?public=true

Thanks Sir Yandell ... I read my homework. 8-B(y)
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
So ... about this Delpo minimal lag :eek:

Who claimed Delpo had minimal wrist lag?

I'll have to watch that Brian Gordon presentation again. He talks about torso and arm and classifies swings into three types. (And as you said, you don't see it; you see torso and arm moving together with Serena and Djok).

Don't recall if he mentions wrist lag. I think there can be great wrist lag in all three types.

Brian-Gordon.png
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Who claimed Delpo had minimal wrist lag?

I'll have to watch that Brian Gordon presentation again. He talks about torso and arm and classifies swings into three types. (And as you said, you don't see it; you see torso and arm moving together with Serena and Djok).

Don't recall if he mentions wrist lag. I think there can be great wrist lag in all three types.

"Who claimed Delpo had minimal wrist lag?"

Coach Steve in the video in my post for Draggy.

"I'll have to watch that Brian Gordon presentation again. He talks about torso and arm and classifies swings into three types. (And as you said, you don't see it; you see torso and arm moving together with Serena and Djok)."

I can't comment on Mr Gordon's categories, it's been to long since I watched that video. If I watch it again, I will comment.

There is a good slow motion Fed FH above in the coach Steve video that provides an example of why I don't view the below the shoulders as a sequence of events (k-chain). I must be wrong, I'm extremely lonely on my lower body k-chain denial island. :cry:

But ... splainin my conclusion:

Watch Fed hit that FH in the video ... 2:54 to 3:04.

Two key actions:
1) push up with right leg
2) entire upper body, including shoulders and arm rotate round right hip at the same time

So sequence or not? I guess one could make the case he pushed up with right leg before the rotation around right hip ... but when it's that close what possible tennis teaching aid could come from it? Regardless ... there simply is no 1) hip rotation first for a while 2) then maybe some core 3) then the shoulders kick in with arm lagging back 4) then stretched muscles/tendons snap the lagging arm back in line with shoulders (posted a pulp fiction video below for this one).

NOOOO!!! ... Fed just stepped and uncoiled EVERYTHING at once ... with racquet trailing behind the hand.

The racquet will have to catch up 8-B


 

sredna42

Hall of Fame
Guys,
There seem to be two general themes in this thread. The exact nature of the biomechanics and what is going on with every body segment at every split second. Then the quest to actually hit a great forehand. I think the biomechanics of the so-called kinetic chain are fascinating and worth understanding. I don't believe though that this info is the route to a great forehand whatever your level. In fact, focusing on the excruciating details is usually counterproductive.

Here is an article that shows my approach working with two players who are at different levels and seem to have very different forehands. This article was based on a presentation I did at the invitation of the USTA at the Tennis Teachers Conference at the Open in 2018.

It's a blueprint for anyone to use simple positions that will produce the key elements of the so-called modern forehand.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public...dell/modern_tennis/two_forehands/?public=true

Awesome article, thanks for posting that mate
 
Awesome article, thanks for posting that mate

yep n hope all the 'coaches' get trained properly by that article b4 ruining kids' little wrists.................once i saw a 'coach' feeding a couple of 7 or 8 yo basket of balls n yelling to them 'to aim the racket butt at the ball!' geeee........eee the kids hardly had any foot work/drive or uni turn or anything except holding their little rackets butt towards the incoming ball then arm/wrist-wrestling the ball.......shocking..........lolololololol, manohman:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D.................
 
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Dragy

Legend
Guys,
There seem to be two general themes in this thread. The exact nature of the biomechanics and what is going on with every body segment at every split second. Then the quest to actually hit a great forehand. I think the biomechanics of the so-called kinetic chain are fascinating and worth understanding. I don't believe though that this info is the route to a great forehand whatever your level. In fact, focusing on the excruciating details is usually counterproductive.

Here is an article that shows my approach working with two players who are at different levels and seem to have very different forehands. This article was based on a presentation I did at the invitation of the USTA at the Tennis Teachers Conference at the Open in 2018.

It's a blueprint for anyone to use simple positions that will produce the key elements of the so-called modern forehand.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public...dell/modern_tennis/two_forehands/?public=true
@JohnYandell thanks for the article. It corresponds with what I recall of your approach when working with @Shroud FH. The preparation and the extension. I have one question, do you think the in-between rollercoasting the swing, or going under the ball, or pendulum swinging, whatever you like to call it, isn’t worth mentioning?
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Went on court today and feed miself balls and experimented a bit, too bad I forgot the phone mount so I could record.

Tried many different things and I didn't have major revelations but a few things I noticed:

-Certainly less power when you set ur racquet low and then explode and swing, if you have your racquet higher and then let it drop low and explode and swing from that momentum you tend to get more easy effortless power
-I noticed alot more control and power when I watched the ball with my head turned to the contact point even after swinging, when I pulled my head away I lost power and alot of control

Its really hard to judge what the right swing looks like where you get max racquet speed tho, almost impossible in 1st person to really know what exactly is happening mechanically, it just feels that the body does all the work and the arm is very light and effortless and has no tension just swings through very easily and the ball really gets crushed.

Probably why its very hard to teach tennis strokes by explaining mechanical things and details, because its very hard to realize those things when your swinging, you just realize what you feel in ur body, arm etc..
 

Dragy

Legend
Probably why its very hard to teach tennis strokes by explaining mechanical things and details, because its very hard to realize those things when your swinging, you just realize what you feel in ur body, arm etc..
You either need to film yourself or practice under coach’s eye. You have no chance to convert mechanical things you learned from whatever super solid source following your feel only.
 

Kevo

Legend
Guys,
There seem to be two general themes in this thread. The exact nature of the biomechanics and what is going on with every body segment at every split second. Then the quest to actually hit a great forehand. I think the biomechanics of the so-called kinetic chain are fascinating and worth understanding. I don't believe though that this info is the route to a great forehand whatever your level. In fact, focusing on the excruciating details is usually counterproductive.

Yeah, but when are you going to tell us how to solve the biggest problem of all in developing great strokes? Why is it you have to practice and spend so much time on the court? ;-P
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Went on court today and feed miself balls and experimented a bit, too bad I forgot the phone mount so I could record.

Tried many different things and I didn't have major revelations but a few things I noticed:

-Certainly less power when you set ur racquet low and then explode and swing, if you have your racquet higher and then let it drop low and explode and swing from that momentum you tend to get more easy effortless power
-I noticed alot more control and power when I watched the ball with my head turned to the contact point even after swinging, when I pulled my head away I lost power and alot of control

Its really hard to judge what the right swing looks like where you get max racquet speed tho, almost impossible in 1st person to really know what exactly is happening mechanically, it just feels that the body does all the work and the arm is very light and effortless and has no tension just swings through very easily and the ball really gets crushed.

Probably why its very hard to teach tennis strokes by explaining mechanical things and details, because its very hard to realize those things when your swinging, you just realize what you feel in ur body, arm etc..

I think we actually don't feel much of the effort. Hold your arm out fully extended in front of you with hand at eye level. To me that feels effortless, but I know it can't be, and swinging the arm in a fast and yet controlled way to hit a moving tennis ball certainly isn't. I guess it's relative ... swinging is certainly more effortless for me these days than trying to get to a drop shot. :eek:
 

Kevo

Legend
You either need to film yourself or practice under coach’s eye. You have no chance to convert mechanical things you learned from whatever super solid source following your feel only.

I think your advice is best, but saying there is no chance is a bit of an exaggeration. Most of my strokes came from self practice and tennis magazine articles. I spent many many hours hitting against a wall and just serving buckets of balls. It can be done, and I am pretty sure others on the forum have expressed similar stories.

I think the main thing is you have to understand the basic principles and then do a lot of experimentation to see what works. In actuality I wish our high school had an actual tennis coach so I could have gotten some real instruction back then. It would have saved me a lot of time I think. Who knows, but there really isn't anything that's all that magical about playing tennis except maybe the arm rotation on the serve. I am pretty sure without the tennis magazine article I read several decades ago I would never would have been able to pick that up from straight observation.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I think your advice is best, but saying there is no chance is a bit of an exaggeration. Most of my strokes came from self practice and tennis magazine articles. I spent many many hours hitting against a wall and just serving buckets of balls. It can be done, and I am pretty sure others on the forum have expressed similar stories.

I think the main thing is you have to understand the basic principles and then do a lot of experimentation to see what works. In actuality I wish our high school had an actual tennis coach so I could have gotten some real instruction back then. It would have saved me a lot of time I think. Who knows, but there really isn't anything that's all that magical about playing tennis except maybe the arm rotation on the serve. I am pretty sure without the tennis magazine article I read several decades ago I would never would have been able to pick that up from straight observation.

My high school tennis coach was my English teacher. Great guy ... no clue about tennis. You can get to a good level of rec tennis by simply playing a lot, particularly tournaments. As I have said before, I never had a lesson, and don't remember even reading instruction. But ... there is no escaping the hours on the court for each painful improvement except for the gifted. The real gift a good instructor could bring is 1) getting rid of the really bad limiting stuff ... like hitting a 1hbh with fh grip 2) reducing the number of hours to get from point A to point B.

I separate that from typical adult rec tennis and elite D1 and up. You can be a top 4.5 singles player with strokes that ttw would condemn, but you can't make it to top D1 with them. The main thing I regret about never having lessons is not a belief my peek level would have changed, but the fact better full strokes are more fun to hit. All kidding aside ... I have learned a lot here, and watching video that have made swinging a racquet even more fun. More shoulder turn will always be the best tip I ever heard. That ... and video yourself.

I think if I had ttw at age 25 to tell me I was arming too much I would have made it to a strong 2.5. :p

Edit: I will add an awesome additional element an instructor can add to your game in honor of Mr @JohnYandell since he is in the house. He has already heard this. I started my 2hbh bucket list project with his article:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public..._complex/Copy of 2hd_bh_simplest_complex.html

The easiest way to state the benefit is I hit a bent/straight 2hbh today rather than bent/bent ... and will as long as I play tennis. I am convinced if I headed to that first 2hbh ball machine session without understanding 2hbh arm position options, I would have ended up bent/bent. Without even making a judgement about the merits of each type of 2hbh, how big is that being able to make an informed choice right at the start of the learning curve. Think of the difference of hitting the first 10,000 2hbhs with bent/straight vs finding out after 10,000 ... oh ... bent/straight exists and I want to hit that. That's what I mean about an instructor being able to save you a lot of hours.
 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Went on court today and feed miself balls and experimented a bit, too bad I forgot the phone mount so I could record.

Tried many different things and I didn't have major revelations but a few things I noticed:

-Certainly less power when you set ur racquet low and then explode and swing, if you have your racquet higher and then let it drop low and explode and swing from that momentum you tend to get more easy effortless power
-I noticed alot more control and power when I watched the ball with my head turned to the contact point even after swinging, when I pulled my head away I lost power and alot of control

Its really hard to judge what the right swing looks like where you get max racquet speed tho, almost impossible in 1st person to really know what exactly is happening mechanically, it just feels that the body does all the work and the arm is very light and effortless and has no tension just swings through very easily and the ball really gets crushed.

Probably why its very hard to teach tennis strokes by explaining mechanical things and details, because its very hard to realize those things when your swinging, you just realize what you feel in ur body, arm etc..

"Certainly less power when you set ur racquet low and then explode and swing, if you have your racquet higher and then let it drop low and explode and swing from that momentum you tend to get more easy effortless power"

This reminded me of watching some of the college singles NCAA finals the other day. BH instead of FH ... but drop/loop related. The #1 seed who had won something like his last 30 matches simply set his 2hbh at bottom of slot (no drop or loop). Rios played this way ... and was #1 in the world. I don't think drop/loop adds power, because we swing from slot ... but regardless, obviously other considerations in tennis besides power. I hit a loop/drop on both wings because I prefer it for timing reasons, but can hit the same 2hbh pace if I start from the slot. Note ... timing is an important element of pace/power ... so a given player could hit more pace with what technique he/she times the best.
 

Dragy

Legend
I think your advice is best, but saying there is no chance is a bit of an exaggeration. Most of my strokes came from self practice and tennis magazine articles. I spent many many hours hitting against a wall and just serving buckets of balls. It can be done, and I am pretty sure others on the forum have expressed similar stories.

I think the main thing is you have to understand the basic principles and then do a lot of experimentation to see what works. In actuality I wish our high school had an actual tennis coach so I could have gotten some real instruction back then. It would have saved me a lot of time I think. Who knows, but there really isn't anything that's all that magical about playing tennis except maybe the arm rotation on the serve. I am pretty sure without the tennis magazine article I read several decades ago I would never would have been able to pick that up from straight observation.
I’m personally a mix of not-that-natural athlete and learner, and an addict of getting into things and self-learning. Imagine where this can get me... What I experienced multiple times was ingraining flawed mechanics pursuing good things. It’s not even a case of focusing on wrong/minute details but rather not doing what I feel I try to do. Only understood after video review. Multiple times I’ve heard things like “you are okaish, just practice more”, but it appeared I wasn’t - practice or matchplay didn’t get me to where I aimed, or at least just a complete (for the level) player with no major holes.
Now with more experience, after not only reading, whatching, understanding and trying things, getting ideas and cues from coaches, but also reviewing a lot with video in terms of both strokes form and produced shots, after figuring out keys and triggers which work for me, I think I now can go with feel to some extent. Until I get another video review...
What I’m trying to say ;) one can certainly figure out how to play tennis just playing and practicing. Even better with some good basic info. But it’s extremely likely that the outcome would be a homebrew tennis player, with at least number of imperfect features in his/her game, mostly concentrated in technics area.
A more interesting question I see how far one can go with no major coaching, with all the high quality info available today (even though you need to sort it from misleading stuff), dedicated practice and self/peer analysis. Trying to figure out myself :laughing:
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I’m personally a mix of not-that-natural athlete and learner, and an addict of getting into things and self-learning. Imagine where this can get me... What I experienced multiple times was ingraining flawed mechanics pursuing good things. It’s not even a case of focusing on wrong/minute details but rather not doing what I feel I try to do. Only understood after video review. Multiple times I’ve heard things like “you are okaish, just practice more”, but it appeared I wasn’t - practice or matchplay didn’t get me to where I aimed, or at least just a complete (for the level) player with no major holes.
Now with more experience, after not only reading, whatching, understanding and trying things, getting ideas and cues from coaches, but also reviewing a lot with video in terms of both strokes form and produced shots, after figuring out keys and triggers which work for me, I think I now can go with feel to some extent. Until I get another video review...
What I’m trying to say ;) one can certainly figure out how to play tennis just playing and practicing. Even better with some good basic info. But it’s extremely likely that the outcome would be a homebrew tennis player, with at least number of imperfect features in his/her game, mostly concentrated in technics area.
A more interesting question I see how far one can go with no major coaching, with all the high quality info available today (even though you need to sort it from misleading stuff), dedicated practice and self/peer analysis. Trying to figure out myself :laughing:

"But it’s extremely likely that the outcome would be a homebrew tennis player, with at least number of imperfect features in his/her game, mostly concentrated in technics area."

I thought your generation all want to be unique ... hence all the tattoos. Man ... I am glad my generations "phase" was just bell bottom jeans. I'm not stuck with that lack of judgement for life.
 

Dragy

Legend
"But it’s extremely likely that the outcome would be a homebrew tennis player, with at least number of imperfect features in his/her game, mostly concentrated in technics area."

I thought your generation all want to be unique ... hence all the tattoos. Man ... I am glad my generations "phase" was just bell bottom jeans. I'm not stuck with that lack of judgement for life.
In a 7.7bln world uniqueness is a myth :sneaky:
 

FiReFTW

Legend
"Certainly less power when you set ur racquet low and then explode and swing, if you have your racquet higher and then let it drop low and explode and swing from that momentum you tend to get more easy effortless power"

This reminded me of watching some of the college singles NCAA finals the other day. BH instead of FH ... but drop/loop related. The #1 seed who had won something like his last 30 matches simply set his 2hbh at bottom of slot (no drop or loop). Rios played this way ... and was #1 in the world. I don't think drop/loop adds power, because we swing from slot ... but regardless, obviously other considerations in tennis besides power. I hit a loop/drop on both wings because I prefer it for timing reasons, but can hit the same 2hbh pace if I start from the slot. Note ... timing is an important element of pace/power ... so a given player could hit more pace with what technique he/she times the best.

2hb doesnt have much to do with the forehand, many players set it low and start from there, but no atp player that i know of (at least the better ones) do that on their fh wing.
And most of the time the ones that have a bigger drop have the most rhs (thiem, gonzales etc).
Theres no doubt you get more rhs if you start from 30mph and accelerate than if you start from 0.

Plus I think you also get a bigger lag and stretch since u drop and then pull adding more momentum.

Try experimenting in real life with and without and see.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
2hb doesnt have much to do with the forehand, many players set it low and start from there, but no atp player that i know of (at least the better ones) do that on their fh wing.
And most of the time the ones that have a bigger drop have the most rhs (thiem, gonzales etc).
Theres no doubt you get more rhs if you start from 30mph and accelerate than if you start from 0.

Plus I think you also get a bigger lag and stretch since u drop and then pull adding more momentum.

Try experimenting in real life with and without and see.

"2hb doesnt have much to do with the forehand"

Disagree ... loops/drops dynamics the same regarding power. I think the ATP fh loop has more to do with the introduction of racquet lag.

Where do you swing your FH from.? Do you swing hard from the top of your backswing?

If you go back and watch McEnroe hit forehands in matches, he hits with a lot more pace than I remembered.

 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
2hb doesnt have much to do with the forehand, many players set it low and start from there, but no atp player that i know of (at least the better ones) do that on their fh wing.
And most of the time the ones that have a bigger drop have the most rhs (thiem, gonzales etc).
Theres no doubt you get more rhs if you start from 30mph and accelerate than if you start from 0.

Plus I think you also get a bigger lag and stretch since u drop and then pull adding more momentum.

Try experimenting in real life with and without and see.

Watch Fed's FH starting at 00:07 below and pick where you think he swings "significantly". I would say 00:14.


Lleyton Hewitt was known for a big FH loop ... where does he swing significantly, and how much did loop before that point aid at that point of firing?



Couldn't aid much on high balls, no space for drop. So more gravity drop aid on low balls? Can't be much compared to moment of firing.

btw ... this has been debated a lot on ttw ... it ends in disagreement. 8-B
 
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FiReFTW

Legend
It does not matter where he swings from, the fact is when you drop the racquet you build momentum so you can accelerate more later and more effortlesly aswell, thats why all the biggest hitters have a big drop, of course the bigger the drop the more time you need to wind up which is the disadvantage.

If there would be no advantage to the loop and drop then every backhand specially 1handers and every forehand would be pull back low and swing forward saving alot of time, but its not... apart from return of serve.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
It does not matter where he swings from, the fact is when you drop the racquet you build momentum so you can accelerate more later and more effortlesly aswell, thats why all the biggest hitters have a big drop, of course the bigger the drop the more time you need to wind up which is the disadvantage.

If there would be no advantage to the loop and drop then every backhand specially 1handers and every forehand would be pull back low and swing forward saving alot of time, but its not... apart from return of serve.

"It does not matter where he swings from"

Yes it does ... everything before is just prep. If one was going to give the gravity drop the most generous credit for rhs increase, maybe a wild guess of 1-2%. That would be significant for the pros, they are competing in tiny margins. I think loops are more smooth fluid swings ... I hit them on both wings, but miniscule addition to rhs imo.

No worries ... agree to disagree. It really doesn't matter ... we are both keeping our loops.
 
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