tennishabit
Legend
glad it won't be too long b4 all the goats who'r surely retiring soon, coming out to clear the air n tell ppl how did they do it..............lolololol manohman..............................
my 2 sense is that for me his 2 points about take back and extension where exactly why John fixed my fh and no other coach did. To this day I have no idea what happens or should happen between the two points. Never think of it. All other coaches had me focused on the contact. Not John. Maybe its my heavy stick but the racquet falls naturally. And to this day when my forehand is off its because I am not focusing on the extention. Once I do that things improve.I was referring to that “racket head below the ball”. In your article you show end of backswing - higher than the contact, and extension point - higher than the contact. I’d say for some it’d be possible to end up swatting at the ball with a horizontal swing, or trying to pull it up from contact point. Isn’t the low-to-high swing, or at least low-to-high racquet head trajectory, a fundamental worth mentioning?
I agree these two checkpoints are fundamental and good to focus. However, there’re different people with different issues. If John looked at you and gave you particular instruction and that put all missed elements into their places to complete a decent stroke - great for you! I don’t associate extension with flat shots. I just see how people can go from backswing to extension with a level motion, and with such players I’d definitely focus on dropping their racquets below the ball before continuing through contact into extension.my 2 sense is that for me his 2 points about take back and extension where exactly why John fixed my fh and no other coach did. To this day I have no idea what happens or should happen between the two points. Never think of it. All other coaches had me focused on the contact. Not John. Maybe its my heavy stick but the racquet falls naturally. And to this day when my forehand is off its because I am not focusing on the extention. Once I do that things improve.
And sadly I think some think the extension is some how just hitting flat. Its not the way John has you do it or the way it works out...
my 2 sense is that for me his 2 points about take back and extension where exactly why John fixed my fh and no other coach did. To this day I have no idea what happens or should happen between the two points. Never think of it. All other coaches had me focused on the contact. Not John. Maybe its my heavy stick but the racquet falls naturally. And to this day when my forehand is off its because I am not focusing on the extention. Once I do that things improve.
And sadly I think some think the extension is some how just hitting flat. Its not the way John has you do it or the way it works out...
Curiosity we will have to agree to disagree. You have a Tennisplayer login. There are 20 Borg forehands in the stroke archive. Look at the 2 side views.
Curiosity we will have to agree to disagree. You have a Tennisplayer login. There are 20 Borg forehands in the stroke archive. Look at the 2 side views.
-The final straw was this long video lesson by Borg, though I found the whole thing interesting:
With Borg the topspin came more from his wiper action than the grip itself although even his relatively mild forehand grip by today's standards was considered extreme then.
Thats why you will stay an average player wielding a light racquet in fear of strings that will destroy your arms. You have to have tennis sense man. How else can you absorb the ball??I have a sense you meant cents.
Where have you been?
Not sure it works like that. The checkpoint he had me get to was basically my hand out in front of my face and take back was a similar height. Unless you are hitting a ball above shoulder height the racquet has to move down and then back up. I think that its built in and why it works.I agree these two checkpoints are fundamental and good to focus. However, there’re different people with different issues. If John looked at you and gave you particular instruction and that put all missed elements into their places to complete a decent stroke - great for you! I don’t associate extension with flat shots. I just see how people can go from backswing to extension with a level motion, and with such players I’d definitely focus on dropping their racquets below the ball before continuing through contact into extension.
Not sure it works like that. The checkpoint he had me get to was basically my hand out in front of my face and take back was a similar height. Unless you are hitting a ball above shoulder height the racquet has to move down and then back up. I think that its built in and why it works.
LMAO now go and change your armor...Less pithy ... more Python
Bridgekeeper: STOP!
He who would cross the Bridge of Death
Must answer me
These questions three
Ere the other side he see.
Shroud: Ask me your questions, Bridgekeeper. I am not afraid.
Bridgekeeper: What...is your name?
Shroud: Shroud of House TTW!
Bridgekeeper: What...is your quest?
Shroud: I seek the modern FH Holy Grail!
Bridgekeeper: What...is the airspeed velocity of lag release?
Shroud: (brief pause) What do you mean, a WTA or ATP FH?
Bridgekeeper: (confused) Well...I don't know...AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!
If you don't roll your arm into contact (ISR), your racquet head will dangle below the handle and you'd only get flat slap on or even under the ball.therefore i don't believe any WW movement
Nice thread and posts. So i have a question or a couple to be exact which may give some answers. I have a FH which up until now was nevr 100% happy with. The key mechanics i used was (extreme eastern grip)
1. Torso rotation so that i can see the left hand in parallel to the net (mostly semi open stance)
2. Hitting arm take back with active ISR by use of scapula muscles- meaning i try to keep the elbow inner part looking at the net while having a bent arm
3. Take back begins slowly while ball bounces and locked angle at the elbow.
4. While the ball approaches envisaged hitting point I actively pull back a bit the arm ( pull violently for a couple of inches) and then shot fwd towards the ball with force Imagining hitting 3-4-5 balls in a row
All the time i have a lose wrist
Pros: better able to keep the ball in as i maintain a tilt in the racquet face and it is not exactly perpendicular when hitting, satisfactory pace. Happy with angles creation. Feel like I make the racquet go “over the ball”
Cons: the violent back and fwd move many times on the back of the lose wrist, makes the racquet unstable in my hand= disaster. Limited ESR as i don't lead with the elbow but with the palm, so while spinny shots they are not “heavy”.
I re modeled the above to a sling shot fwd and since I was already making sure i don't ESR on take back it was easy to implement. First fwd move starts with having in mind to do an extreme ESR. i accomplish that by firign form the shoulder/visualize leading with the elbow and hit the ball with a perpendicular face with no tilt. Results where significantly more spin ( i am sawing Ashaway kevlar 18g in 4 hours with ZX cross). But problems where, i cannnot implement ISR and have no racquet face control. Too many off the court balls vs first model even if with more spin. I tried higher tensions and did not solve the issue so it is my technique. On the first model i feel to what people refer to as wrist “snap” which I agree like many here it is not an active snap but a by product of the free movement of the wrist by the inertia of the arm momentum, but i can feel the same here. Since firign from the elbow the swing path is less horizontal/ across the body than first model and more to a loop (down to up).But in this instance i feel i cannot control the oscillation. How high does the entire hand go. So how can i train to make sure the racquet face closes at the right time so that i have all the benefits of the 2nd part of the first model with the benefits of the ESR from the 2nd model i tried? Believe me I have tried to make conscious moves to close the racquet face at contact but I end up arming the ball and raise the elbow so much that the entire stroke is a disaster. The arm bends as this feels natural to help close the racquet face (instead of ISR) and instead of the hand moving fwd it moves sideways.
From the description above on my personal experience, unless the entire stroke is naturally derived for a player, any active ( meaning purposeful here where you tense your muscles to do sth) actions will simply destroy the stroke, therefore i don't believe any WW movement, wrist snap etc that is actively engaged by the pro players.
Try not think "elevation". Since you swing from below the ball, it's inevitable. Try to meet racquet head with the ball while arm swings forward. The higher the ball - the higher the racquet head by contact:Any tips?
Try not think "elevation". Since you swing from below the ball, it's inevitable. Try to meet racquet head with the ball while arm swings forward. The higher the ball - the higher the racquet head by contact:
I also find it useful to play mini-tennis ( @ByeByePoly ) where you have almost zero swing, set up your arm and roll racquet spinning the ball. Mid level balls will be rolling from low racquet head through horizontal racquet at contact to r-head coming higher than handle. Shoulder height balls are the meat of the exercise: Here you roll to impart diagonal spin, starting with horizontal racquet with stringbed center below the contact point, then rotate RH up and accross.
You can also do some sharp CC rollers from as close to the net as possible, from hand feeds, with same motion - maximum rotation, minimum swing.
Then you get back and incorporate that stuff on top of the full swing: you swing your arm forward (powered by torso and legs of course), it's elevating naturally, but you don't focus on it. And just into contact, as arm is propelling towards the ball, you deliberately rotate racquet head over the handle/arm.
A side note: for really low balls it's cool to do same thing, but directed diagonally outward:
glad it won't be too long b4 all the goats who'r surely retiring soon, coming out to clear the air n tell ppl how did they do it..............lolololol manohman..............................
With Borg the topspin came more from his wiper action than the grip itself although even his relatively mild forehand grip by today's standards was considered extreme then.
slightly off-topic, but this thread seems to have the posters who can answer me once and for all about the forehand (which having been thinking about the stuff in this thread has completely gone haywire) so:
from the start of the upperbody rotation, does the hand (racquet hand) travel in a straight line to the ball or does it travel in a nike swoosh pattern? or are pros doing both? it seems to me that federer and nadal do the former and djokovic does the latter?
and this goes with another question i have had for ages: when the hand is lowered in a forehand swing, it is traveling backwards from or forwards to the net or is it traveling backwards and then forwards with change of direction presumably coming when the upperbody rotation is initiated?
i hope what i am asking makes sense. thanks.
Curiosity,
I don't like the biomechanical lingo. You aren't measuring anything just by using that term. I'll leave that type of breakdown to Brian Gordon who actually has. I prefer to just describe what hundreds of high speed videos actually show. The wiper is a combination of hand, arm and racket rotation. You think about it coming from the hand. Breaking it into components and trying to say so much rotation of the upper arm, so much of the lower arm, etc is a recipe for paralysis.
-then Borg was confused in his auto-biography (written with a ghost): Paraphrasing his sentence: "Critics said I could never succeed with such an extreme grip." I did watch him play a doubles match six years ago at Puente Romano, from good seats. Still looked pretty western to me. Perhaps I was seeing what I expected to see. Possible.
From Tennis.com Sept.17th, 2013, with accompanying photo showing Borg with a Western grip:
http://www.tennis.com/your-game/2013/09/learning-past-bjorn-borgs-forehand/49182/
"Björn Borg ushered in the forehand that almost every pro has today. Until he came around, almost all players had an Eastern forehand. Borg used a Western grip and hit the ball so far over the net, and with so much spin, that he rarely missed."
I'll also say, perhaps a bit that it isn't a result of "a counterclockwise rotation" of the upper arm in the shoulder joint, because that surely wouldn't work for Rafa.
So I think learning that it is the Internal Rotation of the upper arm bone in the Shoulder joint ..
Some people have a hard time getting that lag and snap/liquid whip motion on their strokes.
And the reason why in my opinion is that they are continuing through their strokes in the classic , smooth, WTA forehand style manner.
The key to feeling and getting the liquid whip happening is understanding that you need to stop turning , and you need to do it abruptly.
If you imagine sitting on a spinning disc rotating quickly and then I stop that disc, you go flying off it. Or imagine flicking a whip, the whippy effect comes from when you stop your hand and the whip follows through.
So in order to visualise how to get a liquid whip motion you need to turn your hips and body from facing the fence, to facing forwards, but then stop abruptly. Your arm will then be flung forwards as it catches up, and then finally the racket head will snap forwards from lag position to contact point. It should feel like the racket is doing quick bounce like an elastic band motion.
Now the same also applies to the 2 handed backhand. As you turn your hips and body quickly your arms and racket should almost feel "trapped" behind you, but as you stop turning abruptly at about 45 degrees facing forwards, your arms will catch up and the racket will snap forwards. Now the backhand will feel different from the forehand as youve got 2 hands on the racket but you should still feel that slingshot effect.
So the key to getting the whippy motion on both sides is to visualise not just how quickly you accelerate the turn of your body, but just as important how quickly you stop turning, in order to allow the lag and whip motion to take over.
If you follow through your body turn or do it in one smooth motion you will never get that lag snap effect, it has to be an abrupt turn and an abrupt stop to allow your arm and the racket to sling through like stopping the spinning disc.
The difference? For Rafa and every other left-hander, it's a clockwise rotation....What's the difference? They appear to be the same statement.
I believe in images and feelings more than phrases. Most kids don't want/need to understand verbally in great detail. And it's the same for the players here. We all need to feel and see and make that subconscious. You can't think your way through a forehand.
You’re spot on. Just go try it. Tennis is about doing. What the OP describes makes sense so find a partner or ball machine and prove/disprove it.the difference between arm chair coach and a real player is simple. if you have an idea, go out and try it. if it makes your forehand and backhand better (in this case), then great. if not, then stop doing it. don't go directly from videos to instruction. see if the idea you gained from watching videos actually work in real life before posting it as universal truth here. and whether the above idea is true or not is not that relevant to its value as instruction. there are plenty of instruction that are not factually true. but they have value because they work to make the player (not all players) better.
You’re spot on. Just go try it. Tennis is about doing. What the OP describes makes sense so find a partner or ball machine and prove/disprove it.
”
YES!! "but also to vary spin by varying the amount and speed of the wiper motion," i.e. the internal shoulder rotation. And how is that done? By controlling the input of lat flex. How do you do that? Well, I think you know my favorite answer. Best.
I am quite lost on what ISR is and how it impacts the tennis stroke, can someone link me to a few good posts that explain it?
Thx
I believe in images and feelings more than phrases. Most kids don't want/need to understand verbally in great detail. And it's the same for the players here. We all need to feel and see and make that subconscious. You can't think your way through a forehand.
Curiosity, this is the first post that I can clearly understand the ISR mechanics and seems to be well analyzed by my head. Mean no disrespect to any one else. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.
As I wrote a couple of posts back, in y effort to implement the ISR without the exaggerated Low-to-High movement I have found the following o work for me:
1. Use the lats to "hold back" the shoulder joint from elevating higher than the joint in the non hitting arm during both the take back and teh fwd swing. Purpose is twofold: Limit the exaggerated low-TO-HIGH and maintain an closed racket face by controlling better the elbow joint.
2. I feel I fire the Teres major/minor during take back to also help maintain an inverse racquet head
The above elements facilitate the execution of a good swing as long as I visualize I need to brush UP and OVER the ball. What I am having difficult time to accomplish yet is to make sure that after impact the wrist goes forward from the lag position. I am doing that most likely because I tense as a result of not optimum position. I get this wrist release when I have an optimum position.
From you post you say that the ISR is all about the Lats. And that you have an answer on to control the input. If not too much cna you either point me where you have your analysis or repeat here?
Much appreciated in advance.
That will have to wait at least a few weeks. I can say this, though: If you hold your hitting arm straight out to the side and try to lift something up (even your hand against a wall), and put your off-side hand on your hitting side lats, you will feel the hitting side lats flex, and they are the most powerful muscles in the torso. However, if you take that hitting-side arm and put it straight out in front of you, hand against a wall, and try to rotate it while pressing the wall, the hitting side lats will flex. The reverse is also true: With the hand out in front, arm straight, wrist fully extended back (palm flat foward)...if you flex the hitting side lats the arm, hand, will rotate, or at least try. –This "two different functions" oddity is the result of the exact way the lats anchor to the upper arm bone, humerus. A first step in getting control over the lats is to take something a bit heavier than a racquet, perhaps a very light dumbbell. Grasp it on one end as if it is a racquet, arm straight forward or just a bit toward the hitting side. Hold it out in front straight arm, shoulders fairly square, wrist fully extended, and try to rotate it internally (counterclockwise if you're a righty, the other way if you're a lefty) like turning a door knob. You'll get the feeling. You'll eventually be able to flex the lats for that rotation "on demand," though perhaps not with full force right away.
You'll notice that your dumbell, or whatever object you chose, moves forward slightly but fast, also tilts forward a bit, and also rises a bit in what would be the plane of the string bed. Those are the things you want as your racquet moves directly into contact: extra velocity and spin (through tilt and rise). But don't forget: once you master that bit, remember the feeling of that ISR, not the explanation...make it physical. As for my favorite trigger for it, I await more confirmation from relevant others, for "error in teaching amounts to deliberate sin." What I've said above is absolutely reliable, though.
i've got a gr8 pic i though very good n enticing in an ad on 'gumtree.com.au' here from a french tennis coach n after called him then got his permission to use his photo in promo for free. i made a big poster for a tennis club backboard but some1 in the club told me something's wrong w/ the pic though couldn't explain why, can you tell me what's wrong:?))) asked a few ppl but seemed no clue................
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ultimo/sports-partners/tennis-coach-hitting-partner/1082688638
It really depends on his tennis point of view. If he intended to hit the ball, well, he's a little late.
That will have to wait at least a few weeks. I can say this, though: If you hold your hitting arm straight out to the side and try to lift something up (even your hand against a wall), and put your off-side hand on your hitting side lats, you will feel the hitting side lats flex, and they are the most powerful muscles in the torso. However, if you take that hitting-side arm and put it straight out in front of you, hand against a wall, and try to rotate it while pressing the wall, the hitting side lats will flex.
The reverse is also true: With the hand out in front, arm straight, wrist fully extended back (palm flat forward)...if you flex the hitting side lats the arm, hand, will rotate, or at least try.
–This "two different functions" oddity is the result of the exact way the lats anchor to the upper arm bone, humerus. A first step in getting control over the lats is to take something a bit heavier than a racquet, perhaps a very light dumbbell. Grasp it on one end as if it is a racquet, arm straight forward or just a bit toward the hitting side. Hold it out in front straight arm, shoulders fairly square, wrist fully extended, and try to rotate it internally (counterclockwise if you're a righty, the other way if you're a lefty) like turning a door knob. You'll get the feeling. You'll eventually be able to flex the lats for that rotation "on demand," though perhaps not with full force right away.
You'll notice that your dumbell, or whatever object you chose, moves forward slightly but fast, also tilts forward a bit, and also rises a bit in what would be the plane of the string bed. Those are the things you want as your racquet moves directly into contact: extra velocity and spin (through tilt and rise). But don't forget: once you master that bit, remember the feeling of that ISR, not the explanation...make it physical. As for my favorite trigger for it, I await more confirmation from relevant others, for "error in teaching amounts to deliberate sin." What I've said above is absolutely reliable, though.
I believe in images and feelings more than phrases. Most kids don't want/need to understand verbally in great detail. And it's the same for the players here. We all need to feel and see and make that subconscious. You can't think your way through a forehand.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer
But I cannot get that feeling. Regarding the lateral raise (using dumbbells) I don't get the lats to flex or at least I can't feel it. Putting the hand in front or at some 80 degrees, what I get the feeling is that in ESR the Teres major gets flexed but in ISR not the lats the Teres major gets flexed again.
Maybe it has to do with my understanding of lats "flexing". Lats flex when the arm moves backwards frmt eh shoulder joint. or when you do deadlifts. is this the flex you refer to?
Assuming you mean i raise my hand freely and the elbow joint is practically "looking at the ceiling" with the palm looking the opposite wall (ie there is a forearm pronation at this point already), If i flex the alts (like a bodybuilder) I get this tiny movement. It is not big though and I can't imagine how this affects everything
Should I start this from a full ESR position? iw the elbow jint fully supinated and the wrist in total lagged position?
Half this area of TeeTee is guys thinking through their FH. It’s amazing. The #1 goal for me in tennis is to not be thinking much at all.
If you already know what you're doing, how to hit a forehand of your desired form and effect, you don't need to think about it. There's a ball to watch!
I suspect that a remarkable number of people don't know how to hit the level of forehand they desire and, for them, just watching the slow-motion videos doesn't seem to suffice. There are very good descriptions available (on, e.g., tennisplayerDotnet), but either these aren't consulted, or they aren't read carefully. The videos, too, are apparently not watched carefully, attentively, trying as they watch to duplicate the motions they are seeing both as to the motions, synchronizations, and relative time each phase or motion is given by the exemplar. (They also try to reconcile the differences between the minor variations of various players pro players, a pointless task for a non-advanced player...pick one.)
For those whose "goal...in tennis is not to be thinking much at all" no explanations are needed or wanted. Why do you read them?
I hopped in on this thread because i liked reading johns advice. It makes sense and works on the court. I still like to read and discuss tennis.
Anyway you miss the point. You can be taught how to hit the ball properly without all the micro analysys. You've missed this point for years though.
Give some examples of micro analyses with quotes, posts, Youtubes, etc.