How to visualise the lag and whipping motion on the forehand and 2 handed backhand.

glad it won't be too long b4 all the goats who'r surely retiring soon, coming out to clear the air n tell ppl how did they do it..............lolololol manohman:love::love::love::love::love::love:..............................
 
Curiosity we will have to agree to disagree. You have a Tennisplayer login. There are 20 Borg forehands in the stroke archive. Look at the 2 side views.
 
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I was referring to that “racket head below the ball”. In your article you show end of backswing - higher than the contact, and extension point - higher than the contact. I’d say for some it’d be possible to end up swatting at the ball with a horizontal swing, or trying to pull it up from contact point. Isn’t the low-to-high swing, or at least low-to-high racquet head trajectory, a fundamental worth mentioning?
my 2 sense is that for me his 2 points about take back and extension where exactly why John fixed my fh and no other coach did. To this day I have no idea what happens or should happen between the two points. Never think of it. All other coaches had me focused on the contact. Not John. Maybe its my heavy stick :) but the racquet falls naturally. And to this day when my forehand is off its because I am not focusing on the extention. Once I do that things improve.

And sadly I think some think the extension is some how just hitting flat. Its not the way John has you do it or the way it works out...
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
my 2 sense is that for me his 2 points about take back and extension where exactly why John fixed my fh and no other coach did. To this day I have no idea what happens or should happen between the two points. Never think of it. All other coaches had me focused on the contact. Not John. Maybe its my heavy stick :) but the racquet falls naturally. And to this day when my forehand is off its because I am not focusing on the extention. Once I do that things improve.

And sadly I think some think the extension is some how just hitting flat. Its not the way John has you do it or the way it works out...
I agree these two checkpoints are fundamental and good to focus. However, there’re different people with different issues. If John looked at you and gave you particular instruction and that put all missed elements into their places to complete a decent stroke - great for you! I don’t associate extension with flat shots. I just see how people can go from backswing to extension with a level motion, and with such players I’d definitely focus on dropping their racquets below the ball before continuing through contact into extension.
 
my 2 sense is that for me his 2 points about take back and extension where exactly why John fixed my fh and no other coach did. To this day I have no idea what happens or should happen between the two points. Never think of it. All other coaches had me focused on the contact. Not John. Maybe its my heavy stick :) but the racquet falls naturally. And to this day when my forehand is off its because I am not focusing on the extention. Once I do that things improve.

And sadly I think some think the extension is some how just hitting flat. Its not the way John has you do it or the way it works out...
I have a sense you meant cents. 8-B

Where have you been?
 
Curiosity we will have to agree to disagree. You have a Tennisplayer login. There are 20 Borg forehands in the stroke archive. Look at the 2 side views.
We can agree to agree. I continued searching. Found clearer photos, and a video by Borg showing how to take his forehand grip. Yep. Semi-western at best, perhaps extreme Eastern. Of course I looked back at the old archive Borg clips too... C'est la vie.
 
-The final straw was this long video lesson by Borg, though I found the whole thing interesting:
He didn't know what a western grip was, or else they changed the definition. He also didn't seem to know he ends up high in the 2hbh backswing similar to modern players ... he just gets there penduluming up (like Gilles Simon) rather than across like a Djokovic. I had noticed that about his 2hbh a couple of years ago when I was deep into 2hbh styles/technique.

I'm not good at picking out grips from video ... but in the video in my post before (Borg,Lendl,Fed) ... Borg's fh grip looked sw to me... maybe strong Eastern. In the lesson video, what he called Western looked sw ... and the playing in the video again looked strong Eastern to SW. I only look at first knuckle ... the rest is too confusing.
 
With Borg the topspin came more from his wiper action than the grip itself although even his relatively mild forehand grip by today's standards was considered extreme then.
Ugly strokes ... surprised he amounted to anything. :p If anyone wants to use the throwing analogy ... look no further than his 2hbh. Looks like he intends to fling the racquet over the net and forgets at last second and holds on with right hand.
 
I agree these two checkpoints are fundamental and good to focus. However, there’re different people with different issues. If John looked at you and gave you particular instruction and that put all missed elements into their places to complete a decent stroke - great for you! I don’t associate extension with flat shots. I just see how people can go from backswing to extension with a level motion, and with such players I’d definitely focus on dropping their racquets below the ball before continuing through contact into extension.
Not sure it works like that. The checkpoint he had me get to was basically my hand out in front of my face and take back was a similar height. Unless you are hitting a ball above shoulder height the racquet has to move down and then back up. I think that its built in and why it works.
 
Not sure it works like that. The checkpoint he had me get to was basically my hand out in front of my face and take back was a similar height. Unless you are hitting a ball above shoulder height the racquet has to move down and then back up. I think that its built in and why it works.
Less pithy ... more Python



Bridgekeeper: STOP!
He who would cross the Bridge of Death
Must answer me
These questions three
Ere the other side he see.

Shroud: Ask me your questions, Bridgekeeper. I am not afraid.

Bridgekeeper: What...is your name?

Shroud: Shroud of House TTW!

Bridgekeeper: What...is your quest?

Shroud: I seek the modern FH Holy Grail!

Bridgekeeper: What...is the airspeed velocity of lag release?

Shroud: (brief pause) What do you mean, a WTA or ATP FH?

Bridgekeeper: (confused) Well...I don't know...AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!
 
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Less pithy ... more Python



Bridgekeeper: STOP!
He who would cross the Bridge of Death
Must answer me
These questions three
Ere the other side he see.

Shroud: Ask me your questions, Bridgekeeper. I am not afraid.

Bridgekeeper: What...is your name?

Shroud: Shroud of House TTW!

Bridgekeeper: What...is your quest?

Shroud: I seek the modern FH Holy Grail!

Bridgekeeper: What...is the airspeed velocity of lag release?

Shroud: (brief pause) What do you mean, a WTA or ATP FH?

Bridgekeeper: (confused) Well...I don't know...AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!
LMAO now go and change your armor...
 
Nice thread and posts. So i have a question or a couple to be exact which may give some answers. I have a FH which up until now was nevr 100% happy with. The key mechanics i used was (extreme eastern grip)

1. Torso rotation so that i can see the left hand in parallel to the net (mostly semi open stance)
2. Hitting arm take back with active ISR by use of scapula muscles- meaning i try to keep the elbow inner part looking at the net while having a bent arm
3. Take back begins slowly while ball bounces and locked angle at the elbow.
4. While the ball approaches envisaged hitting point I actively pull back a bit the arm ( pull violently for a couple of inches) and then shot fwd towards the ball with force Imagining hitting 3-4-5 balls in a row

All the time i have a lose wrist

Pros: better able to keep the ball in as i maintain a tilt in the racquet face and it is not exactly perpendicular when hitting, satisfactory pace. Happy with angles creation. Feel like I make the racquet go “over the ball”

Cons: the violent back and fwd move many times on the back of the lose wrist, makes the racquet unstable in my hand= disaster. Limited ESR as i don't lead with the elbow but with the palm, so while spinny shots they are not “heavy”.

I re modeled the above to a sling shot fwd and since I was already making sure i don't ESR on take back it was easy to implement. First fwd move starts with having in mind to do an extreme ESR. i accomplish that by firign form the shoulder/visualize leading with the elbow and hit the ball with a perpendicular face with no tilt. Results where significantly more spin ( i am sawing Ashaway kevlar 18g in 4 hours with ZX cross). But problems where, i cannnot implement ISR and have no racquet face control. Too many off the court balls vs first model even if with more spin. I tried higher tensions and did not solve the issue so it is my technique. On the first model i feel to what people refer to as wrist “snap” which I agree like many here it is not an active snap but a by product of the free movement of the wrist by the inertia of the arm momentum, but i can feel the same here. Since firign from the elbow the swing path is less horizontal/ across the body than first model and more to a loop (down to up).But in this instance i feel i cannot control the oscillation. How high does the entire hand go. So how can i train to make sure the racquet face closes at the right time so that i have all the benefits of the 2nd part of the first model with the benefits of the ESR from the 2nd model i tried? Believe me I have tried to make conscious moves to close the racquet face at contact but I end up arming the ball and raise the elbow so much that the entire stroke is a disaster. The arm bends as this feels natural to help close the racquet face (instead of ISR) and instead of the hand moving fwd it moves sideways.

From the description above on my personal experience, unless the entire stroke is naturally derived for a player, any active ( meaning purposeful here where you tense your muscles to do sth) actions will simply destroy the stroke, therefore i don't believe any WW movement, wrist snap etc that is actively engaged by the pro players.
 
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Nice thread and posts. So i have a question or a couple to be exact which may give some answers. I have a FH which up until now was nevr 100% happy with. The key mechanics i used was (extreme eastern grip)

1. Torso rotation so that i can see the left hand in parallel to the net (mostly semi open stance)
2. Hitting arm take back with active ISR by use of scapula muscles- meaning i try to keep the elbow inner part looking at the net while having a bent arm
3. Take back begins slowly while ball bounces and locked angle at the elbow.
4. While the ball approaches envisaged hitting point I actively pull back a bit the arm ( pull violently for a couple of inches) and then shot fwd towards the ball with force Imagining hitting 3-4-5 balls in a row

All the time i have a lose wrist

Pros: better able to keep the ball in as i maintain a tilt in the racquet face and it is not exactly perpendicular when hitting, satisfactory pace. Happy with angles creation. Feel like I make the racquet go “over the ball”

Cons: the violent back and fwd move many times on the back of the lose wrist, makes the racquet unstable in my hand= disaster. Limited ESR as i don't lead with the elbow but with the palm, so while spinny shots they are not “heavy”.

I re modeled the above to a sling shot fwd and since I was already making sure i don't ESR on take back it was easy to implement. First fwd move starts with having in mind to do an extreme ESR. i accomplish that by firign form the shoulder/visualize leading with the elbow and hit the ball with a perpendicular face with no tilt. Results where significantly more spin ( i am sawing Ashaway kevlar 18g in 4 hours with ZX cross). But problems where, i cannnot implement ISR and have no racquet face control. Too many off the court balls vs first model even if with more spin. I tried higher tensions and did not solve the issue so it is my technique. On the first model i feel to what people refer to as wrist “snap” which I agree like many here it is not an active snap but a by product of the free movement of the wrist by the inertia of the arm momentum, but i can feel the same here. Since firign from the elbow the swing path is less horizontal/ across the body than first model and more to a loop (down to up).But in this instance i feel i cannot control the oscillation. How high does the entire hand go. So how can i train to make sure the racquet face closes at the right time so that i have all the benefits of the 2nd part of the first model with the benefits of the ESR from the 2nd model i tried? Believe me I have tried to make conscious moves to close the racquet face at contact but I end up arming the ball and raise the elbow so much that the entire stroke is a disaster. The arm bends as this feels natural to help close the racquet face (instead of ISR) and instead of the hand moving fwd it moves sideways.

From the description above on my personal experience, unless the entire stroke is naturally derived for a player, any active ( meaning purposeful here where you tense your muscles to do sth) actions will simply destroy the stroke, therefore i don't believe any WW movement, wrist snap etc that is actively engaged by the pro players.
4. While the ball approaches envisaged hitting point I actively pull back a bit the arm ( pull violently for a couple of inches) and then shot fwd towards the ball with force Imagining hitting 3-4-5 balls in a row

You pull the arm back, or rotate shoulders a bit more? Goffin does the late additional shoulder rotation on his FH sometimes, but have never seen a pro push arm back past shoulder line. If you have a video of a pro doing that, please post. There has been much discussion here about arm doesn't lag, racquet does ... sometimes a player proves theories wrong.
 
Dragy i have read the statement million times, heard it from my coach million times, but I cant do it “freely” and without tense.

The problem i am having is that during the swing and once the arm starts its elevation to find the contact point i start what i believe is ISR And it turns out that this purposeful active movement makes me raise the entire arm above shoulder level, and onwards the elbow above shoulder level. The only way i have found that it may work sometimes is if i visualize that the elevation needs to stop ( stop the shoulder moving) at contact level abruptly. But then all this tense is transferred throughout the entire arm (wrist included) ending up arming the ball. So in my case, easier said than done. Any tips?

BBPoly, I am not saying that what i do is modeled out of any pro. What i do is a habit ingrained which seems to partially work for me. Imagine this: arm raised on my side cage is on 0 degrees to the torso. Arm raised in front is 90 degrees. What i do is have an initial take back at around 60 degrees and then do a sudden jerky move to 30 degrees to fire fwd. by doing that with a loose wrist and kinda locked elbow pronated, the wrist gets all the kinetic energy and therefore lags without too much ESR. For me at least the racquet tilt is more easy to control this way.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Try not think "elevation". Since you swing from below the ball, it's inevitable. Try to meet racquet head with the ball while arm swings forward. The higher the ball - the higher the racquet head by contact:


I also find it useful to play mini-tennis ( :whistle: @ByeByePoly ) where you have almost zero swing, set up your arm and roll racquet spinning the ball. Mid level balls will be rolling from low racquet head through horizontal racquet at contact to r-head coming higher than handle. Shoulder height balls are the meat of the exercise: Here you roll to impart diagonal spin, starting with horizontal racquet with stringbed center below the contact point, then rotate RH up and accross.

You can also do some sharp CC rollers from as close to the net as possible, from hand feeds, with same motion - maximum rotation, minimum swing.

Then you get back and incorporate that stuff on top of the full swing: you swing your arm forward (powered by torso and legs of course), it's elevating naturally, but you don't focus on it. And just into contact, as arm is propelling towards the ball, you deliberately rotate racquet head over the handle/arm.

A side note: for really low balls it's cool to do same thing, but directed diagonally outward:
 
Try not think "elevation". Since you swing from below the ball, it's inevitable. Try to meet racquet head with the ball while arm swings forward. The higher the ball - the higher the racquet head by contact:


I also find it useful to play mini-tennis ( :whistle: @ByeByePoly ) where you have almost zero swing, set up your arm and roll racquet spinning the ball. Mid level balls will be rolling from low racquet head through horizontal racquet at contact to r-head coming higher than handle. Shoulder height balls are the meat of the exercise: Here you roll to impart diagonal spin, starting with horizontal racquet with stringbed center below the contact point, then rotate RH up and accross.

You can also do some sharp CC rollers from as close to the net as possible, from hand feeds, with same motion - maximum rotation, minimum swing.

Then you get back and incorporate that stuff on top of the full swing: you swing your arm forward (powered by torso and legs of course), it's elevating naturally, but you don't focus on it. And just into contact, as arm is propelling towards the ball, you deliberately rotate racquet head over the handle/arm.

A side note: for really low balls it's cool to do same thing, but directed diagonally outward:
mini tennis + deep analysis o_O My poor poor friend Dragy.
 
Dragy thanks for the input of avoid thinking about elevation which will happen anyway. It worked this am beautifully. The only “cue” i had in mind (and this was detrimental as i had ONE thing in mind and not several to confuse me) was to visualize that i need to roll over the ball at contact ( like in this video the movement before and right after contact where the shoulder does not elevate but the head moves around the arm axis
) and as such it was a lot easier to complete the stroke. I did not do this high elbow thing and huge loop and my balls were pretty consistent and heavy. I guess if i keep this fwd i will be able to also fix some details that were missing, like maintain the left arm high at contact, keep a straight hitting arm to facilitate the rolling over from the scapula and so on and improve on the distance from the ball (ie how much diagonal i need to be depending on the incoming ball to find and optimum hitting point that will facilitate the rolling over/racquet head movement without too much conscious effort but as a result of human body mechanics). In all however i was very pleased. Thanks again.
 
glad it won't be too long b4 all the goats who'r surely retiring soon, coming out to clear the air n tell ppl how did they do it..............lolololol manohman:love::love::love::love::love::love:..............................
This can be done before retirement on a personal level one-on-one about just a particular point. (No big free lesson...) Surely it requires effort, knowledge of player contacts, and a little chutzpah perhaps. I've done it twice at training centers and club beach bars. I'm trying a third more remote Q:A now, which is less simple. Even when they retire they rarely get around to open explications if they move into running a center or writing a book, or both. Unless you ask a basic direct question, are the interviewer/ghost, the desired question rarely seems to get direct discussion, at least in my experience. In the meantime...;
 
slightly off-topic, but this thread seems to have the posters who can answer me once and for all about the forehand (which having been thinking about the stuff in this thread has completely gone haywire) so:

from the start of the upperbody rotation, does the hand (racquet hand) travel in a straight line to the ball or does it travel in a nike swoosh pattern? or are pros doing both? it seems to me that federer and nadal do the former and djokovic does the latter?

and this goes with another question i have had for ages: when the hand is lowered in a forehand swing, it is traveling backwards from or forwards to the net or is it traveling backwards and then forwards with change of direction presumably coming when the upperbody rotation is initiated?

i hope what i am asking makes sense. thanks.
 
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slightly off-topic, but this thread seems to have the posters who can answer me once and for all about the forehand (which having been thinking about the stuff in this thread has completely gone haywire) so:

from the start of the upperbody rotation, does the hand (racquet hand) travel in a straight line to the ball or does it travel in a nike swoosh pattern? or are pros doing both? it seems to me that federer and nadal do the former and djokovic does the latter?

and this goes with another question i have had for ages: when the hand is lowered in a forehand swing, it is traveling backwards from or forwards to the net or is it traveling backwards and then forwards with change of direction presumably coming when the upperbody rotation is initiated?

i hope what i am asking makes sense. thanks.
Typically the hitting hand starts forward (pushing outward as well, if necessary, to get the grip in line with the expected contact point) exactly as UB rotation begins, with a miniscule bit of arm lag accounted for by some looseness in the hitting shoulder joint.

The hitting hand has to follow an arc after the first brief "pull out" powered by the rotating UB/shoulder. If you're hitting straight-arm and aim the grip cap at that expected contact point, then the arc will see your hand pull left, and the string-bed will go where the grip cap pointed...to the ball.

The angle at which the pull-out and arc are drawn depends on the incoming path of the ball and the nature of its bounce. Watch one of the major Fed or other player's YouTube compilations for the variety encountered. A high bouncing wide incoming ball requires one path. A close-in and low-bouncing ball requires getting the racquet head very low and close-in, rising up to the ball with good fast arm rotation from the shoulder to get the racquet face more-or-less level and to produce some topspin.

Is the hand lowered toward the net? Backfence? It depends on the player you study. Simple answer: For every good player it starts going backward from its highest point. How much and how long depends on the player. Fear not. The massive momentum of the rotating upper body will have that hand/racquet going forward fast regardless of the particular extent of backward angle in the downswing. It's like a mouse going one way tied to an elephant going the other way. Or so it seems to me...
 
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Curiosity,
I don't like the biomechanical lingo. You aren't measuring anything just by using that term. I'll leave that type of breakdown to Brian Gordon who actually has. I prefer to just describe what hundreds of high speed videos actually show. The wiper is a combination of hand, arm and racket rotation. You think about it coming from the hand. Breaking it into components and trying to say so much rotation of the upper arm, so much of the lower arm, etc is a recipe for paralysis.
 
Curiosity,
I don't like the biomechanical lingo. You aren't measuring anything just by using that term. I'll leave that type of breakdown to Brian Gordon who actually has. I prefer to just describe what hundreds of high speed videos actually show. The wiper is a combination of hand, arm and racket rotation. You think about it coming from the hand. Breaking it into components and trying to say so much rotation of the upper arm, so much of the lower arm, etc is a recipe for paralysis.
I certainly don't think of the windshield wiper as coming from the hand, and think anyone who does is oblivious. You don't, and I'll quote you below, from your New Method: The Forehand: The Windshield Wiper, below. I view the hand (and wrist) as essentially fixed through contact in the modern forehand. The exception, of course, is in the case of an incoming ball being so surprisingly far from the torso that the player has to flex the wrist out to it's natural lock position.

The reason I raised the question, whether you think of the term "windshield wiper rotation" as mainly flowing from ISR, (internal) rotation of the shoulder, versus simply a follow-through of an exaggerated low-to-high swing, is specifically this: I've run across quite a few advanced juniors, including one on his way to a national tournament, who had no idea that the latter notion was simply not what the thing was about. I'll also say, perhaps a bit that it isn't a result of "a counterclockwise rotation" of the upper arm in the shoulder joint, because that surely wouldn't work for Rafa. So I think learning that it is the Internal Rotation of the upper arm bone in the Shoulder joint ...is worth teaching even the 12- and 14- year-olds. It's easy to explain, and even to feel it happen with one's own fingers of one's off-side hand...if one knows where to grab the upper arm.

I'll reply separately and privately about what Gordon does and doesn't do. His "Developing an ATP Forehand," Parts 1 and 2, contains an amazing list of curious statments. I'll send a not-so-brief list of them to you privately. I've already written up many of them, but it's late at night. I'll review my work before I send it. Yes, he measures lots of things in the swing. He never explains the swing, and in my personal opinion mis-describes many aspects of it. I can myself, for that matter, measure a kid's swing speed every three months, and the changes over time in his arm position through the stroke. That tells the student nothing about HOW to control the amount and velocity of Windshiled Wiper rotation, which you yourself describe as possible..."with infinite variation. " He keeps claiming his conclusions all rely on his extensive and "scientific" database. I wouldn't call it scientific. I'd call it a technical database of kinesiological measurements. He also claims his conclusions are a result of his advanced bio-mechnical research. I'd call it kinesiology research, befitting his academic background at the Indiana University "School of Health, Physical Education, and Recreation." I'll leave the rest for a private communication. What he does is no doubt fine, as far as it goes. What he doesn't bother to do, for example, is clarify accurately the main drivers of that windshield wiper "clockwise rotation of the arm in the shoulder joint," and how a student can therefore improve the timing and power of those main muscle recruitments, which are actually and "scientifically," on evidence, under the control of the player. Perhaps you disagree. Point me to the part of either Part 1 or Part 2 where he gets to that....the lats, and how one controls them.

Gordon leaves out of his "scientific" analysis and "BEST System" descriptions the enormously important measurement, even description of, the sequence of...the particular muscular efforts involved in hitting, from start to finish, a modern forehand. No silver tags are required to accurately describe those....

I actually like and agree with your description of the universality and nature of the Windshied Wiper, quite apart from your reluctance to use two basic terms:

As you said so well in your video lesson “A New Teaching Method: The Forehand: The Windshield Wiper.” (I quote you beginning at 1:04 into the lesson): “So what is it, specifically? The wiper action is the unitary counterclockwise rotation of the hand, arm, and racquet in the forward swing. If we isolate the wiper motion, we can see clearly that as the swing moves forward the hand, arm, and racket are turning over as a unit. This is driven by the rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint. (Poster Insert: Yes. It's about ISR, and that follows ESR, which both of which easy to describe. We players and coaches can learn Spanish or Chinese in middle- and high-school, but not two simple terms?-ed.) This rotation causes the racquet tip to turn over up to 180º or even more in the course of the forward swing. Watch the racket tip rotate from pointing from one sideline to the other, from the contact out into the follow-through. Here the racket is turning over a full 180º in around 1/10th of a second. The effect? The wiper increases the ability to generate and vary topspin by increasing the vertical component in racket head speed. The result is the ability to create tremendous amounts of spin but also to vary spin by varying the amount and the speed of the wiper motion, and this applies across a wide range of contact heights, shot speeds, trajectories and shot placements. ….But, in the modern game this windshield wiper rotation has become a virtually universal element regardless of grip style even for players with more conservative grips, such as Roger Federer.”

YES!! ISR is now "virtually universal element," and have the ability to " also to vary spin by varying the amount and speed of the wiper motion," i.e. the internal shoulder rotation. And how is that done? By controlling the input of lat flex. How do you do that? Well, I think you know my favorite answer. Best.
 
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-then Borg was confused in his auto-biography (written with a ghost): Paraphrasing his sentence: "Critics said I could never succeed with such an extreme grip." I did watch him play a doubles match six years ago at Puente Romano, from good seats. Still looked pretty western to me. Perhaps I was seeing what I expected to see. Possible.

From Tennis.com Sept.17th, 2013, with accompanying photo showing Borg with a Western grip:
http://www.tennis.com/your-game/2013/09/learning-past-bjorn-borgs-forehand/49182/

"Björn Borg ushered in the forehand that almost every pro has today. Until he came around, almost all players had an Eastern forehand. Borg used a Western grip and hit the ball so far over the net, and with so much spin, that he rarely missed."
I actually saw a video, old footage, where he himself demonstrates his grip, and it was a semiweastern. I think you can still find it on YouTube.
 
Some people have a hard time getting that lag and snap/liquid whip motion on their strokes.

And the reason why in my opinion is that they are continuing through their strokes in the classic , smooth, WTA forehand style manner.

The key to feeling and getting the liquid whip happening is understanding that you need to stop turning , and you need to do it abruptly.

If you imagine sitting on a spinning disc rotating quickly and then I stop that disc, you go flying off it. Or imagine flicking a whip, the whippy effect comes from when you stop your hand and the whip follows through.

So in order to visualise how to get a liquid whip motion you need to turn your hips and body from facing the fence, to facing forwards, but then stop abruptly. Your arm will then be flung forwards as it catches up, and then finally the racket head will snap forwards from lag position to contact point. It should feel like the racket is doing quick bounce like an elastic band motion.

Now the same also applies to the 2 handed backhand. As you turn your hips and body quickly your arms and racket should almost feel "trapped" behind you, but as you stop turning abruptly at about 45 degrees facing forwards, your arms will catch up and the racket will snap forwards. Now the backhand will feel different from the forehand as youve got 2 hands on the racket but you should still feel that slingshot effect.

So the key to getting the whippy motion on both sides is to visualise not just how quickly you accelerate the turn of your body, but just as important how quickly you stop turning, in order to allow the lag and whip motion to take over.

If you follow through your body turn or do it in one smooth motion you will never get that lag snap effect, it has to be an abrupt turn and an abrupt stop to allow your arm and the racket to sling through like stopping the spinning disc.
i've got a gr8 pic in an ad on 'gumtree.com.au' here from a french tennis coach and made a big poster for a tennis club backboard aft got his permission but someone told me something's wrong w/ it though couldn't explain why, can you tell me what's wrong:?)))................

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ultimo/sports-partners/tennis-coach-hitting-partner/1082688638

i thought his front page pic's showing how beautifully his rkt 'butting the ball' ie 'wrist lag' etcetc.............perfect for all the rec-ers to admire n to inspire the kids:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:...................
 
I believe in images and feelings more than phrases. Most kids don't want/need to understand verbally in great detail. And it's the same for the players here. We all need to feel and see and make that subconscious. You can't think your way through a forehand.
 
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I believe in images and feelings more than phrases. Most kids don't want/need to understand verbally in great detail. And it's the same for the players here. We all need to feel and see and make that subconscious. You can't think your way through a forehand.
i've got a gr8 pic in an ad on 'gumtree.com.au' here from a french tennis coach and made a big poster for a tennis club backboard aft got his permission but someone told me something's wrong w/ it though couldn't explain why, can you tell me what's wrong:?)))................

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ultimo/sports-partners/tennis-coach-hitting-partner/1082688638

i thought his front page pic's showing how beautifully his rkt 'butting the ball' ie 'wrist lag' etcetc.............perfect for all the rec-ers to admire n to inspire the kids:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:...................
 
the difference between arm chair coach and a real player is simple. if you have an idea, go out and try it. if it makes your forehand and backhand better (in this case), then great. if not, then stop doing it. don't go directly from videos to instruction. see if the idea you gained from watching videos actually work in real life before posting it as universal truth here. and whether the above idea is true or not is not that relevant to its value as instruction. there are plenty of instruction that are not factually true. but they have value because they work to make the player (not all players) better.
You’re spot on. Just go try it. Tennis is about doing. What the OP describes makes sense so find a partner or ball machine and prove/disprove it.
 
You’re spot on. Just go try it. Tennis is about doing. What the OP describes makes sense so find a partner or ball machine and prove/disprove it.
lolololol man, keep the real tennis for ourselves.........the club courts need to have $$$ come in otherwise council's taking them back then converted to netball/mini soccer/etcetc:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:......................

setup tennis 'meetup' to get more ppl/$$$ n all 'meetup' groups are competing for a few more ppl..............nicely visualized/visible 'ball butting' 'wrist lagging' on top of nice girls pics are the best attraction to newbies n kids.........the organizers of the 'meetup' group also have to put over 100 girls profiles online most of which are fake or overseas but no choice they've got to do it to attract more attendants.............sad reality for tenniso_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O........................
 


YES!! "but also to vary spin by varying the amount and speed of the wiper motion," i.e. the internal shoulder rotation. And how is that done? By controlling the input of lat flex. How do you do that? Well, I think you know my favorite answer. Best.
Curiosity, this is the first post that I can clearly understand the ISR mechanics and seems to be well analyzed by my head. Mean no disrespect to any one else. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

As I wrote a couple of posts back, in y effort to implement the ISR without the exaggerated Low-to-High movement I have found the following o work for me:

1. Use the lats to "hold back" the shoulder joint from elevating higher than the joint in the non hitting arm during both the take back and teh fwd swing. Purpose is twofold: Limit the exaggerated low-TO-HIGH and maintain an closed racket face by controlling better the elbow joint.
2. I feel I fire the Teres major/minor during take back to also help maintain an inverse racquet head

The above elements facilitate the execution of a good swing as long as I visualize I need to brush UP and OVER the ball. What I am having difficult time to accomplish yet is to make sure that after impact the wrist goes forward from the lag position. I am doing that most likely because I tense as a result of not optimum position. I get this wrist release when I have an optimum position.

From you post you say that the ISR is all about the Lats. And that you have an answer on to control the input. If not too much cna you either point me where you have your analysis or repeat here?

Much appreciated in advance.
 
I believe in images and feelings more than phrases. Most kids don't want/need to understand verbally in great detail. And it's the same for the players here. We all need to feel and see and make that subconscious. You can't think your way through a forehand.
I strongly agree that we need to see, feel, and make the thing sub-conscious. I think learning two simple phrases and their meanings helps players understand what should be happening. They need to understand how to get it to work, when, and how much. Then they can slowly forget it because they already feel it and do it, and, anyway, they need to watch the ball. I like the late mathematician Paul Halmos' turn of phrase in his 1960 text, "Naive Set Theory." "Here is what a mathematician needs to know of set theory. Learn it. Forget it. Use it." Basic things become second nature, subconscious, but used, and well. I think the sequence can be the same in learning tennis, though tennis is a vastly simpler activity. We know Federer knew his technical underpinnings in detail, because he said so. I have no doubt the same is true of Rafa, because we've seen two examples of detailed tweeking lessons by coaches explaining to him (and Uncle Tony) the reasoning for the changes. Almost every kid I've known seems entirely capable of forgetting the motivating explanation once he gets the thing into use. Easily. Without prompting....
 
Curiosity, this is the first post that I can clearly understand the ISR mechanics and seems to be well analyzed by my head. Mean no disrespect to any one else. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

As I wrote a couple of posts back, in y effort to implement the ISR without the exaggerated Low-to-High movement I have found the following o work for me:

1. Use the lats to "hold back" the shoulder joint from elevating higher than the joint in the non hitting arm during both the take back and teh fwd swing. Purpose is twofold: Limit the exaggerated low-TO-HIGH and maintain an closed racket face by controlling better the elbow joint.
2. I feel I fire the Teres major/minor during take back to also help maintain an inverse racquet head

The above elements facilitate the execution of a good swing as long as I visualize I need to brush UP and OVER the ball. What I am having difficult time to accomplish yet is to make sure that after impact the wrist goes forward from the lag position. I am doing that most likely because I tense as a result of not optimum position. I get this wrist release when I have an optimum position.

From you post you say that the ISR is all about the Lats. And that you have an answer on to control the input. If not too much cna you either point me where you have your analysis or repeat here?

Much appreciated in advance.
That will have to wait at least a few weeks. I can say this, though: If you hold your hitting arm straight out to the side and try to lift something up (even your hand against a wall), and put your off-side hand on your hitting side lats, you will feel the hitting side lats flex, and they are the most powerful muscles in the torso. However, if you take that hitting-side arm and put it straight out in front of you, hand against a wall, and try to rotate it while pressing the wall, the hitting side lats will flex. The reverse is also true: With the hand out in front, arm straight, wrist fully extended back (palm flat foward)...if you flex the hitting side lats the arm, hand, will rotate, or at least try. –This "two different functions" oddity is the result of the exact way the lats anchor to the upper arm bone, humerus. A first step in getting control over the lats is to take something a bit heavier than a racquet, perhaps a very light dumbbell. Grasp it on one end as if it is a racquet, arm straight forward or just a bit toward the hitting side. Hold it out in front straight arm, shoulders fairly square, wrist fully extended, and try to rotate it internally (counterclockwise if you're a righty, the other way if you're a lefty) like turning a door knob. You'll get the feeling. You'll eventually be able to flex the lats for that rotation "on demand," though perhaps not with full force right away.

You'll notice that your dumbell, or whatever object you chose, moves forward slightly but fast, also tilts forward a bit, and also rises a bit in what would be the plane of the string bed. Those are the things you want as your racquet moves directly into contact: extra velocity and spin (through tilt and rise). But don't forget: once you master that bit, remember the feeling of that ISR, not the explanation...make it physical. As for my favorite trigger for it, I await more confirmation from relevant others, for "error in teaching amounts to deliberate sin." What I've said above is absolutely reliable, though.
 
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That will have to wait at least a few weeks. I can say this, though: If you hold your hitting arm straight out to the side and try to lift something up (even your hand against a wall), and put your off-side hand on your hitting side lats, you will feel the hitting side lats flex, and they are the most powerful muscles in the torso. However, if you take that hitting-side arm and put it straight out in front of you, hand against a wall, and try to rotate it while pressing the wall, the hitting side lats will flex. The reverse is also true: With the hand out in front, arm straight, wrist fully extended back (palm flat foward)...if you flex the hitting side lats the arm, hand, will rotate, or at least try. –This "two different functions" oddity is the result of the exact way the lats anchor to the upper arm bone, humerus. A first step in getting control over the lats is to take something a bit heavier than a racquet, perhaps a very light dumbbell. Grasp it on one end as if it is a racquet, arm straight forward or just a bit toward the hitting side. Hold it out in front straight arm, shoulders fairly square, wrist fully extended, and try to rotate it internally (counterclockwise if you're a righty, the other way if you're a lefty) like turning a door knob. You'll get the feeling. You'll eventually be able to flex the lats for that rotation "on demand," though perhaps not with full force right away.

You'll notice that your dumbell, or whatever object you chose, moves forward slightly but fast, also tilts forward a bit, and also rises a bit in what would be the plane of the string bed. Those are the things you want as your racquet moves directly into contact: extra velocity and spin (through tilt and rise). But don't forget: once you master that bit, remember the feeling of that ISR, not the explanation...make it physical. As for my favorite trigger for it, I await more confirmation from relevant others, for "error in teaching amounts to deliberate sin." What I've said above is absolutely reliable, though.
i've got a gr8 pic i though very good n enticing in an ad on 'gumtree.com.au' here from a french tennis coach n after called him then got his permission to use his photo in promo for free. i made a big poster for a tennis club backboard but some1 in the club told me something's wrong w/ the pic though couldn't explain why, can you tell me what's wrong:?))) asked a few ppl but seemed no clueo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O................

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ultimo/sports-partners/tennis-coach-hitting-partner/1082688638
 
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i've got a gr8 pic i though very good n enticing in an ad on 'gumtree.com.au' here from a french tennis coach n after called him then got his permission to use his photo in promo for free. i made a big poster for a tennis club backboard but some1 in the club told me something's wrong w/ the pic though couldn't explain why, can you tell me what's wrong:?))) asked a few ppl but seemed no clueo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O................

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ultimo/sports-partners/tennis-coach-hitting-partner/1082688638
It really depends on his tennis point of view. If he intended to hit the ball, well, he's a little late.
 
It really depends on his tennis point of view. If he intended to hit the ball, well, he's a little late.
which segment's late:?))).........some1 in the club said better not use the big poster i made in case kids trying to copy but no explanation:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:.................................

too many goat's posters around so boring btw too high above...........i'd like to see some1 bit down to earth but hard to find good 1s8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B8-B.........................
 
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Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer

That will have to wait at least a few weeks. I can say this, though: If you hold your hitting arm straight out to the side and try to lift something up (even your hand against a wall), and put your off-side hand on your hitting side lats, you will feel the hitting side lats flex, and they are the most powerful muscles in the torso. However, if you take that hitting-side arm and put it straight out in front of you, hand against a wall, and try to rotate it while pressing the wall, the hitting side lats will flex.
But I cannot get that feeling. Regarding the lateral raise (using dumbbells) I don't get the lats to flex or at least I can't feel it. Putting the hand in front or at some 80 degrees, what I get the feeling is that in ESR the Teres major gets flexed but in ISR not the lats the Teres major gets flexed again.

Maybe it has to do with my understanding of lats "flexing". Lats flex when the arm moves backwards frmt eh shoulder joint. or when you do deadlifts. is this the flex you refer to?

The reverse is also true: With the hand out in front, arm straight, wrist fully extended back (palm flat forward)...if you flex the hitting side lats the arm, hand, will rotate, or at least try.
Assuming you mean i raise my hand freely and the elbow joint is practically "looking at the ceiling" with the palm looking the opposite wall (ie there is a forearm pronation at this point already), If i flex the alts (like a bodybuilder) I get this tiny movement. It is not big though and I can't imagine how this affects everything

–This "two different functions" oddity is the result of the exact way the lats anchor to the upper arm bone, humerus. A first step in getting control over the lats is to take something a bit heavier than a racquet, perhaps a very light dumbbell. Grasp it on one end as if it is a racquet, arm straight forward or just a bit toward the hitting side. Hold it out in front straight arm, shoulders fairly square, wrist fully extended, and try to rotate it internally (counterclockwise if you're a righty, the other way if you're a lefty) like turning a door knob. You'll get the feeling. You'll eventually be able to flex the lats for that rotation "on demand," though perhaps not with full force right away.
Should I start this from a full ESR position? iw the elbow jint fully supinated and the wrist in total lagged position?

You'll notice that your dumbell, or whatever object you chose, moves forward slightly but fast, also tilts forward a bit, and also rises a bit in what would be the plane of the string bed. Those are the things you want as your racquet moves directly into contact: extra velocity and spin (through tilt and rise). But don't forget: once you master that bit, remember the feeling of that ISR, not the explanation...make it physical. As for my favorite trigger for it, I await more confirmation from relevant others, for "error in teaching amounts to deliberate sin." What I've said above is absolutely reliable, though.
 
I believe in images and feelings more than phrases. Most kids don't want/need to understand verbally in great detail. And it's the same for the players here. We all need to feel and see and make that subconscious. You can't think your way through a forehand.
Half this area of TeeTee is guys thinking through their FH. It’s amazing. The #1 goal for me in tennis is to not be thinking much at all.
 
Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer



But I cannot get that feeling. Regarding the lateral raise (using dumbbells) I don't get the lats to flex or at least I can't feel it. Putting the hand in front or at some 80 degrees, what I get the feeling is that in ESR the Teres major gets flexed but in ISR not the lats the Teres major gets flexed again.

Maybe it has to do with my understanding of lats "flexing". Lats flex when the arm moves backwards frmt eh shoulder joint. or when you do deadlifts. is this the flex you refer to?



Assuming you mean i raise my hand freely and the elbow joint is practically "looking at the ceiling" with the palm looking the opposite wall (ie there is a forearm pronation at this point already), If i flex the alts (like a bodybuilder) I get this tiny movement. It is not big though and I can't imagine how this affects everything



Should I start this from a full ESR position? iw the elbow jint fully supinated and the wrist in total lagged position?
-The Teres Major is a relatively small muscle, and is one of several muscles that assist that Latissimus Dorsi in medial rotation of the Humerus. To say "put your arm straight out to the side" or "place your arm straight out in front of you" means that: straight arm, straight out (shoulder height). The lats are huge and powerful by comparison. I think my description of "how to put the lats into action" was clear. If you reach around the front of your torso, and put your hand on that very large swath of the lats, you should easily feel them kick in. For any doubt about where the lats are and what they do, see e.g. the freely available Wikipedia descriptions of each muscle. Best of luck.
 
Half this area of TeeTee is guys thinking through their FH. It’s amazing. The #1 goal for me in tennis is to not be thinking much at all.
If you already know what you're doing, how to hit a forehand of your desired form and effect, you don't need to think about it. There's a ball to watch!
I suspect that a remarkable number of people don't know how to hit the level of forehand they desire and, for them, just watching the slow-motion videos doesn't seem to suffice. There are very good descriptions available (on, e.g., tennisplayerDotnet), but either these aren't consulted, or they aren't read carefully. The videos, too, are apparently not watched carefully, attentively, trying as they watch to duplicate the motions they are seeing both as to the motions, synchronizations, and relative time each phase or motion is given by the exemplar. (They also try to reconcile the differences between the minor variations of various players pro players, a pointless task for a non-advanced player...pick one.)

For those whose "goal...in tennis is not to be thinking much at all" no explanations are needed or wanted. Why do you read them?
 
If you already know what you're doing, how to hit a forehand of your desired form and effect, you don't need to think about it. There's a ball to watch!
I suspect that a remarkable number of people don't know how to hit the level of forehand they desire and, for them, just watching the slow-motion videos doesn't seem to suffice. There are very good descriptions available (on, e.g., tennisplayerDotnet), but either these aren't consulted, or they aren't read carefully. The videos, too, are apparently not watched carefully, attentively, trying as they watch to duplicate the motions they are seeing both as to the motions, synchronizations, and relative time each phase or motion is given by the exemplar. (They also try to reconcile the differences between the minor variations of various players pro players, a pointless task for a non-advanced player...pick one.)

For those whose "goal...in tennis is not to be thinking much at all" no explanations are needed or wanted. Why do you read them?
I hopped in on this thread because i liked reading johns advice. It makes sense and works on the court. I still like to read and discuss tennis.

Anyway you miss the point. You can be taught how to hit the ball properly without all the micro analysys. You've missed this point for years though.
 
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