How to visualise the lag and whipping motion on the forehand and 2 handed backhand.

[Chas Tennis]

This thread and about any post you have ever made. I think that is plenty of examples as a starter.

The next time you see a post with too much micro analysis point out the unnecessary micro analysis. Color the micro analysis in red. I don't know enough detail for "micro analysis". I typically mention a few of the things that relate to the tennis strokes. For example, mention 2 or 3 of the main muscles used for each stroke (the body has 600 muscles). There are a very small percent of posts that I overdo it on.

I try to show that my posts match what is seen in high speed videos. And use defined terms when I can.

I write the information that I wish I had seen as a tennis enthusiast studying tennis strokes in 1975...............

 

[Power Player]

I'm still trying to figure out the Merry Go Round and see if it can be used as a simplified learning model to understand the forehand.

The MGoR is somewhat analogous to the uppermost body (line between the shoulders) and the rider mass is somewhat analogous to the moment of inertia of the upper arm, arm and racket. The rubber sling is analogous to the elastic component in stretched muscles, Titin. But there is some type of nerve control of forces from Titin.

There is a giant sling shot on a Merry Go Round and a rider is in the pouch of the sling shot, with two giant rubber slings. The MGoR starts from rest and begins accelerating the mass of the rider. This acceleration stretches the giant sling shot rubber slings. The stretching will slow and stop when the elastic forces of the rubber slings increase to equal F = mA. As long as constant acceleration continues the rider will go around the MGoR in a giant sling shot with stretched rubber slings at a fixed length, L-- F=mA = hL (Hook's Law gives the force of the rubber for a given length, L, h is Hook's constant for the rubber slings)

If the acceleration is entirely stopped suddenly, the MGoR's rotation velocity in then constant, the stretching forces will stop and then the rider will be propelled forward at a higher velocity than the MGoR's rotation velocity. If the acceleration is only decreased the rubber should shorten and propel the rider forward with less velocity than stopping acceleration, but more velocity than the MGoR. (Is this a model for stopping uppermost body acceleration? - you get the velocity of the uppermost body turning plus the extra acceleration from stretched shoulder muscle forces on the upper arm.)

If the MGoR were completely stopped suddenly, a very large deceleration, zero velocity, including a stopped sling shot, then the rider and rubber sling would still be moving with the MGoR's original speed toward the now stopped sling shot. What effect would the stopped sling shot have on how the still moving rubber sling accelerates the rider? How does the stopped MGoR model the forehand? Stopped shoulder is a view that some posters have for the forehand.

Ok, that took like 5 seconds.

 

[tennishabit]

Give some examples of micro analyses with quotes, posts, Youtubes, etc.

precisely, man. i had a photo dat i thought good n made a big poster but some1 in dat club told me not to use................i asked ppl here for advice but not much response except @Curiosity said 'a little late', but which part's late:?))) legs:?)) torso:?))) arm:?))) hand/wrist:?))) or the whole lot:?)))

it seems quite a few ppl here must spent hrs to put the brilliant theoretical 'essays' together...........but tldr........2-way time waster, lolololololol.........................

so many 'experts' or semi/quarter 'experts' here, so simple..........couple of more analytical words for this pic:
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ultimo/sports-partners/tennis-coach-hitting-partner/1082688638

 

[tennishabit]

such a small pic but yet a torturous climb of everest w/o oxigen, so, if not a pro-mountaineer better off stay at home playing tennis instead of getting mummified on top of the world..........lololololol manohman.....................

just read report dat quite a few ppl missing over there incl. 1 aussie lady.......sadsadsad..............................

 

[Curiosity]

I hopped in on this thread because i liked reading johns advice. It makes sense and works on the court. I still like to read and discuss tennis.

Anyway you miss the point. You can be taught how to hit the ball properly without all the micro analysys. You've missed this point for years though.

You've been reading my comments for years? If you didn't like the first few, why keep reading?
John's site is full of micro advice, minus two supposedly over-technical terms, good advice generally. So I take it you are a subscriber to his site?

 

[Power Player]

You've been reading my comments for years? If you didn't like the first few, why keep reading?
John's site is full of micro advice, minus two supposedly over-technical terms, good advice generally. So I take it you are a subscriber to his site?

I dont read all your comments. I just know that for years you have overanalyzed tennis to the point of madness.

Popping in to read johns posts does not mean I subscribe to his site. I do agree with what he has stated in this thread and many others as well. I thought that was pretty obvious, but hopefully that clears it all up for you.

 

[Curiosity]

I dont read all your comments. I just know that for years you have overanalyzed tennis to the point of madness.

Popping in to read johns posts does not mean I subscribe to his site. I do agree with what he has stated in this thread and many others as well. I thought that was pretty obvious, but hopefully that clears it all up for you.

I'm unsurprised you like the advice to "just see and feel" your tennis. I get it. You don't like references to the muscle contractions that power particular actions.
What I don't understand is why you read comments that are in reply to someone else.
If you think a comment I made is/was wrong, incorrect, why don't you just post what you believe is the correct version? That would be helpful.
John makes relatively rare comments on this site, and those are usually brief and conclusory. If you like his comments, why not read and view his actual articles on tennisplayerDOTnet?

 

[Power Player]

I'm unsurprised you like the advice to "just see and feel" your tennis. I get it. You don't like references to the muscle contractions that power particular actions.
What I don't understand is why you read comments that are in reply to someone else.
If you think a comment I made is/was wrong, incorrect, why don't you just post what you believe is the correct version? That would be helpful.
John makes relatively rare comments on this site, and those are usually brief and conclusory. If you like his comments, why not read and view his actual articles on tennisplayerDOTnet?

I never once said i just “see and feel my tennis”. Thats false, and you wont be able to quote me saying that.

Also never even once spoke about you specifically. You chose to quote me and start this up. Pretty telling that you took it so personally. Johns made plenty of great posts on this site. Maybe you should pay closer attention.

 

[tennishabit]

I'm unsurprised you like the advice to "just see and feel" your tennis. I get it. You don't like references to the muscle contractions that power particular actions.
What I don't understand is why you read comments that are in reply to someone else.
If you think a comment I made is/was wrong, incorrect, why don't you just post what you believe is the correct version? That would be helpful.
John makes relatively rare comments on this site, and those are usually brief and conclusory. If you like his comments, why not read and view his actual articles on tennisplayerDOTnet?

u mean @JohnYandell:?)) from tennisplayer.net:?)) well, he might be able to shine some light on dat pic:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ultimo/sports-partners/tennis-coach-hitting-partner/1082688638

i think i asked him what's wrong with dat pic in a previous post but no response yet...........anyway it seems a 'huge task' 4 any 'expert'.................

 

[Dragy]

u mean @JohnYandell:?)) from tennisplayer.net:?)) well, he might be able to shine some light on dat pic:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ultimo/sports-partners/tennis-coach-hitting-partner/1082688638

i think i asked him what's wrong with dat pic in a previous post but no response yet...........anyway it seems a 'huge task' 4 any 'expert'.................

I say no wonder he wears a knee support!

 

[tennishabit]

I say no wonder he wears a knee support!

lololololol man.....well, the 'meetup' organizers specifically asked for the photos w/ braces etcetc as it'll inspires those aged worn-out-ers to keep going.

just because of something else, 1 of the organizers saying not to use it but he couldn't explain why................

anyway it's pretty good case study for the 'experts' here........lololololol manohman......................

 

[Chas Tennis]

Ok, that took like 5 seconds.

Good point.

History -

That is one of my more technical posts where Kobble, Dragy and I were trying to understand the forehand using a new 'Merry Go Round' analogy that Kobble introduced.

The post you quoted was from a physics discussion that Kobble started by bringing up the analogy of a Merry Go Round to represent the body turn of a forehand. The Merry Go Round analogy has the same physics, but much simplified because the analogy leaves out the complicating biomechanics, Kinetic Chain Concept, etc of tennis strokes. That analogy is worth while.

Here are some of the posts.

Kobble introduces the Merry Go Round analogy.

The stretch shortening cycle is a way to transfer kinetic energy (1/2m x v^2) into elastic potential energy. It makes it easier to load up that energy to save it for a later time frame and release it.

As for passing on momentum from one link to another, I don’t think that is entirely transferred. This would be like saying that if a person was sitting on a merry go round as the merry go round had them moving at 20 m/s, and the merry go round just stopped, that the person would fly off at greater than 20 m/s. that is not consistent with observed objects rotating around an axis. They are known to fly off at the exact tangential velocity they had before the string was cut. The momentum tied up in the weight and moment of inertia of the merry go round is transferred to the breaking system used to slow (stop it). Now, if someone wants to say, “Ya, the breaking system. The extension on the next limb is the breaking system, and that is where the momentum goes.” No. That is where some of the momentum goes, not all. The inner part will slow because some of that momentum will be tied up in the new addition to its moment of inertia. It is likely that, by most evidence, kinetic energy is the currency for transferring speed in segments, not momentum. If you look at all Langrangian equations, they use kinetic energy terms to describe double pendulum motion. Other more common evidence for momentum of one link not being fully transferred to the next link is the summation of speeds description for the kinetic chain.

If a person was sitting on a merry go round with it’s hips bound to the seat, a sudden stop would cause the upper body fall, where the head would initially move faster than 20m/s. That’s what happens with hand being the end of the arm, and with racquet head coming from deep lag. The former is additionally enhanced with SSC shorten phase, the latter may or may not be deliberately restricted as JY pointed out.

Do you have any physical experiments that show the velocity gain on video?

For those wondering, that still isn't transferring extra momentum from the merry go round. Just leveraging the momentum the person possesses as a separate system, and leveraging that in an angular fashion to finagle more kinetic energy out of it.

Merry Go Round analogy? Where is the elastic energy storage on a Merry Go Round analogous to what muscles have? There is none. I discussed an accelerating system with elastic storage not a MGoR.

If the MGoR had elastic supports for the rider and it first accelerated to stretch the supports and then stopped (decelerated) the rider would look much like the upper arm during the forehand, the rider would lag during acceleration and then be propelled off the MGoR and the velocity could exceed the MGoR's velocity, I think. ?

Now I'm not so sure about the rider's maximum speed with acceleration and rider with elastic supports .........

In any case, a MGoR does not have an elastic storage component holding the rider's mass.

Usually, we don't think of the MGoR as strongly accelerating because it accelerates gradually. The acceleration is harder to see than the velocity.

Acceleration vs Velocity

Do you have any physical experiments that show the velocity gain on video?

For those wondering, that still isn't transferring extra momentum from the merry go round. Just leveraging the momentum the person possesses as a separate system, and leveraging that in an angular fashion to finaggle more kinetic energy out of it.
Well, it is all governed by classical physics laws. What you were describing was something similar to Kepler's Law. The momentum of a piece of an object stays the same, but the radius changes, creating more velocity. The momentum of the object rotating around and axis is tied to the area it sweeps out over in a given period of time. Cut the radius, and the object increases tangential velocity to cover the same area.

There is alot I am trying to figure out

My post that you quoted.

I'm still trying to figure out the Merry Go Round and see if it can be used as a simplified learning model to understand the forehand.

The MGoR is somewhat analogous to the uppermost body (line between the shoulders) and the rider mass is somewhat analogous to the moment of inertia of the upper arm, arm and racket. The rubber sling is analogous to the elastic component in stretched muscles, Titin. But there is some type of nerve control of forces from Titin.

There is a giant sling shot on a Merry Go Round and a rider is in the pouch of the sling shot, with two giant rubber slings. The MGoR starts from rest and begins accelerating the mass of the rider. This acceleration stretches the giant sling shot rubber slings. The stretching will slow and stop when the elastic forces of the rubber slings increase to equal F = mA. As long as constant acceleration continues the rider will go around the MGoR in a giant sling shot with stretched rubber slings at a fixed length, L-- F=mA = hL (Hook's Law gives the force of the rubber for a given length, L, h is Hook's constant for the rubber slings)

If the acceleration is entirely stopped suddenly, the MGoR's rotation velocity in then constant, the stretching forces will stop and then the rider will be propelled forward at a higher velocity than the MGoR's rotation velocity. If the acceleration is only decreased the rubber should shorten and propel the rider forward with less velocity than stopping acceleration, but more velocity than the MGoR. (Is this a model for stopping uppermost body acceleration? - you get the velocity of the uppermost body turning plus the extra acceleration from stretched shoulder muscle forces on the upper arm.)

If the MGoR were completely stopped suddenly, a very large deceleration, zero velocity, including a stopped sling shot, then the rider and rubber sling would still be moving with the MGoR's original speed toward the now stopped sling shot. What effect would the stopped sling shot have on how the still moving rubber sling accelerates the rider? How does the stopped MGoR model the forehand? Stopped shoulder is a view that some posters have for the forehand.

Analogies -

Merry Go Round & Forehand Uppermost Body - rotate and rotationaly accelerate using similar physics. MGoR physics is much simpler.

Giant Sling Shot & Titin in Muscles - are both elastic and stretched. Both can shorten at high speed.
Titin is a hot research subject with uncertainly. A sling shot is simple and familiar to everyone.

 

[DavaiMarat]

Some people have a hard time getting that lag and snap/liquid whip motion on their strokes.

And the reason why in my opinion is that they are continuing through their strokes in the classic , smooth, WTA forehand style manner.

The key to feeling and getting the liquid whip happening is understanding that you need to stop turning , and you need to do it abruptly.

If you imagine sitting on a spinning disc rotating quickly and then I stop that disc, you go flying off it. Or imagine flicking a whip, the whippy effect comes from when you stop your hand and the whip follows through.

So in order to visualise how to get a liquid whip motion you need to turn your hips and body from facing the fence, to facing forwards, but then stop abruptly. Your arm will then be flung forwards as it catches up, and then finally the racket head will snap forwards from lag position to contact point. It should feel like the racket is doing quick bounce like an elastic band motion.

Now the same also applies to the 2 handed backhand. As you turn your hips and body quickly your arms and racket should almost feel "trapped" behind you, but as you stop turning abruptly at about 45 degrees facing forwards, your arms will catch up and the racket will snap forwards. Now the backhand will feel different from the forehand as youve got 2 hands on the racket but you should still feel that slingshot effect.

So the key to getting the whippy motion on both sides is to visualise not just how quickly you accelerate the turn of your body, but just as important how quickly you stop turning, in order to allow the lag and whip motion to take over.

If you follow through your body turn or do it in one smooth motion you will never get that lag snap effect, it has to be an abrupt turn and an abrupt stop to allow your arm and the racket to sling through like stopping the spinning disc.

I'm not sure the visualization of stopping is useful. I think what your describing is the kinetic chain but you tell a new player to 'stop' pieces of the swing it usually ends up with deceleration and lack of smoothness and consistency. I know what your trying to say, the swing is segmented, like a whip rotational forces lag between behind each other to accelerate the racquet head but stopping is not how i would describe it.

I would more say you drive from the feet - > hips - > shoulders - > arm. In that order. It's more of a lag not a series of stops.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Visualize from the player's viewpoint?

A GoPro mounted on the head and pointed down might show the OP how the forehand would look if the tennis players could see as a high speed video camera does.

In this video most impacts are low so that only the racket head is visible at impact. Best impacts are at 0:56 and 1:28. The serves are Waiter's Tray technique with little racket head rotation to impact.

For stop action single frame on Youtube, use the "." and "," keys.

Anyone with a 240 fps GoPro and a head mount? Please post here.

For the forehand aim the camera down. This might be a great way to observe the serve? But the majority of high level players on the serve do not look at the ball through impact.

The Bryan brothers have used a head mount GoPro.

 

[Curiosity]

I never once said i just “see and feel my tennis”. Thats false, and you wont be able to quote me saying that.

Also never even once spoke about you specifically. You chose to quote me and start this up. Pretty telling that you took it so personally. Johns made plenty of great posts on this site. Maybe you should pay closer attention.

@Power Player @JohnYandell –Power, you're right on three counts: (1) My comment #347 was reacting to your statement, which was admittedly a bit humorous, about trying not to think when playing. You didn't mention me, but were, in the context of the prior comments, deprecating technical or detailed descriptions. That's why I replied. Some people actually request such detail, and some follow them. I think detailed descriptions serve a use for some, and I've long expected that those who aren't interested can and should simply skip over them; (2) You never wrote the comment in quotes, and I wasn't quoting you. I was quoting (in paraphrase, actually) John's very recent post in this thread and assumed you would instantly recognize the reference, since you'd extolled John's comments:

In his post #326 John said "I believe in images and feelings more than phrases. Most kids don't want/need to understand verbally in great detail. And it's the same for the players here. We all need to feel and see and make that subconscious. You can't think your way through a forehand."; (3) Yes, John makes interesting posts on this site. I've read every one of them made since Winter, 2014, though I myself haven't been commenting in several of the included years. I've also read/viewed every one of his "A New Teaching System" articles on tpdn, together with almost everything else on his site.

Having observed lots of very advanced on-court coaching, and having read the relevant literature from Reid, Elliot, Crespo, Cross, Lindsey, Brody, and others, I came to the conclusion that relevant muscle recruitment during certain swing segments was, for some players, a weakness, and that the literature was light on the topic. So I'm focused on that. For players without coaches, and for advanced players in their teens, there is value to an hour of deeper description, buried among the thousands of hours of hitting, drilling, competing. Worthwhile things may have been left out or gone undiscovered by the player. I haven't yet met a pro (of the three I've chanced to speak with much) who denied ever receiving (scattered among all the smaller guidence, the nudges, the "self-organization" hopes) more detailed explanations of the muscle contractions to emphasize in various segments of the strokes. It is clearly the sort of explanation that you "learn, forget, then use." The technical hopefully stays in mind long enough to get the feeling of it on court, the image, the (aha) muscle memory....and then most of the words fade, the feel remains, and if something goes wrong in the stroke, the player typically just asks for critiques, video, advice, and gets the feeling back. JMPV.

Are descriptions of key muscle drivers and how to trigger them important? Am I a crank to think so? I think they're very important, and I'll give a clear modern forehand example. JY beautifully describes the Windshield Wiper action, though declining to take the step to use, or introduce descriptions of, the relevant acronyms ESR and ISR, in “A New Teaching Method: The Forehand: The Windshield Wiper.” "This is driven by the rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint." (Curiosity asks: Yes, ISR, but what actually drives that rotation?) "The result is the ability to create tremendous amounts of spin but also to vary spin by varying the amount and the speed of the wiper motion, and this applies across a wide range of contact heights, shot speeds, trajectories and shot placements. ….But, in the modern game this windshield wiper rotation has become a virtually universal element regardless of grip style even for players with more conservative grips, such as Roger Federer.” He is describing, of course, ISR into contact. And I ask myself, "But how, via what muscle contractions and their triggers, does a player manage to control the "varied amounts"? Optimize them in context? It is by triggering weaker or stronger flexes of particular muscles. Which ones? He doesn't say. It is as if mentioning the particular key muscles and their triggering, modulating, is the Third Rail of tennis writing. And you cannot say speaking about it is unnecessary. Lack of knowledge about the two simple terms and the way to modulate ISR is extremely widespread among local coaches and local high-level players. It needn't be this way.

 

[tennishabit]

@Power Player @JohnYandell –Power, you're right on three counts: (1) My comment #347 was reacting to your statement, which was admittedly a bit humorous, about trying not to think when playing. You didn't mention me, but were, in the context of the prior comments, deprecating technical or detailed descriptions. That's why I replied. Some people actually request such detail, and some follow them. I think detailed descriptions serve a use for some, and I've long expected that those who aren't interested can and should simply skip over them; (2) You never wrote the comment in quotes, and I wasn't quoting you. I was quoting (in paraphrase, actually) John's very recent post in this thread and assumed you would instantly recognize the reference, since you'd extolled John's comments:

In his post #326 John said "I believe in images and feelings more than phrases. Most kids don't want/need to understand verbally in great detail. And it's the same for the players here. We all need to feel and see and make that subconscious. You can't think your way through a forehand."; (3) Yes, John makes interesting posts on this site. I've read every one of them made since Winter, 2014, though I myself haven't been commenting in several of the included years. I've also read/viewed every one of his "A New Teaching System" articles on tpdn, together with almost everything else on his site.

Having observed lots of very advanced on-court coaching, and having read the relevant literature from Reid, Elliot, Crespo, Cross, Lindsey, Brody, and others, I came to the conclusion that relevant muscle recruitment during certain swing segments was, for some players, a weakness, and that the literature was light on the topic. So I'm focused on that. For players without coaches, and for advanced players in their teens, there is value to an hour of deeper description, buried among the thousands of hours of hitting, drilling, competing. Worthwhile things may have been left out or gone undiscovered by the player. I haven't yet met a pro (of the three I've chanced to speak with much) who denied ever receiving (scattered among all the smaller guidence, the nudges, the "self-organization" hopes) more detailed explanations of the muscle contractions to emphasize in various segments of the strokes. It is clearly the sort of explanation that you "learn, forget, then use." The technical hopefully stays in mind long enough to get the feeling of it on court, the image, the (aha) muscle memory....and then most of the words fade, the feel remains, and if something goes wrong in the stroke, the player typically just asks for critiques, video, advice, and gets the feeling back. JMPV.

Are descriptions of key muscle drivers and how to trigger them important? Am I a crank to think so? I think they're very important, and I'll give a clear modern forehand example. JY beautifully describes the Windshield Wiper action, though declining to take the step to use, or introduce descriptions of, the relevant acronyms ESR and ISR, in “A New Teaching Method: The Forehand: The Windshield Wiper.” "This is driven by the rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint." (Curiosity asks: Yes, ISR, but what actually drives that rotation?) "The result is the ability to create tremendous amounts of spin but also to vary spin by varying the amount and the speed of the wiper motion, and this applies across a wide range of contact heights, shot speeds, trajectories and shot placements. ….But, in the modern game this windshield wiper rotation has become a virtually universal element regardless of grip style even for players with more conservative grips, such as Roger Federer.” He is describing, of course, ISR into contact. And I ask myself, "But how, via what muscle contractions and their triggers, does a player manage to control the "varied amounts"? Optimize them in context? It is by triggering weaker or stronger flexes of particular muscles. Which ones? He doesn't say. It is as if mentioning the particular key muscles and their triggering, modulating, is the Third Rail of tennis writing. And you cannot say speaking about it is unnecessary. Lack of knowledge about the two simple terms and the way to modulate ISR is extremely widespread among local coaches and local high-level players. It needn't be this way.

wowow, u guys posts should'v bn on science journal or physio/sport science conferences alike.......lolololol manohman.................

don't both to be so exhausted writing/reading as most ppl here or there r tldr-ers. actually no need to use more than 30 words to explain why it's non-plausible of this pic, very straight forward n simple:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ultimo/sports-partners/tennis-coach-hitting-partner/1082688638

lolololololol, just a very small 'case study' for the so called 'experts' or semi/quarter/r16/r32/etcetc 'experts' in ttw trollerment.......

 

[tennishabit]

lololololol this thread attracted almost 6k views so the fancy 'laging moden forehand' dose sell as hot as cakes n every1's fighting/dying hard to get a piece of it................lololololol manohman......................

i was pretty much right to use that pic to attract/catch more newbies for the 'meetup', also every1 here can see no 'experts' here can even tell why that pic's not plausible so now u know what kind of 'experts' u can find here, lololololol man...........................

 

[Chas Tennis]

For communication.
https://activerain.com/blogsview/4558899/how-to-be-less-cryptic-in-your-communication

 

[tennishabit]

lololololol manohman, move on n get over it............don't worry abt the 1s who'r 'focusing' on the fancy 'style'/'looking' instead of the content. they'r 'goner'........if can adapt to new environment, survive. if not, 'goner'.......out of equation n better off enjoy last a few alzheimering yrs in nursing home......................

simple, straight forward n no need to b 'showy' w/ 'fancy looking' 'brand' etcetcetc as all those bsht might work 20 yrs ago but not now n that's why so many 'goners' nowadays......................

 

[tennishabit]

For communication.
https://activerain.com/blogsview/4558899/how-to-be-less-cryptic-in-your-communication

depending on whom communicating w/.........a simple preliminary redundancy method, ie to get rid of nonproblemsolvers ie blablabla-ers...................

 

[MordredSJT]

I just want to say that I've found this thread highly entertaining. I haven't posted here in years, but I am motivated to come out of retirement.

Short background on me for context. I'm a self-taught player from a small town in the middle of a cold weather tennis desert. I had never played indoors until I was 17, never played more than four months of the year until I got to college, and only played my first USTA tournament after college (zero junior tournament play, there are none around my area). I peaked at a 5.0 level and played DIII college tennis. Once took a set off a guy that played #1 for a a D1 school, yay me (lost a ten point tie-break for the third, booooooo). I have degrees in physics and computer science and spent a semester in graduate school working in biomechanics. I started teaching tennis part time when I was 16 and became a full time teaching pro when I was 24. I have 15 years of teaching under my belt, and used to work at one of the largest tennis centers in the *******. I've worked with nationally ranked juniors, beginner adults...gotten 3.0 hacks to 3.5, 3.5 to 4.0 and 4.0 to 4.5. I'm a big admirer of John Yandell, used to have a tennisplayer account and devoured every bit of info there (I was in charge of video analysis program at the tennis center as well). I've been through a lot over the past two years health wise and am currently rediscovering my love of tennis this summer.

Are descriptions of key muscle drivers and how to trigger them important? Am I a crank to think so?

Definitely NOT a crank, to a degree.

I'm a full on geek about all this stuff, so I want to know every little detail about how everything works. That has immense value to me both as a teacher and as a player. However, there is a definite skill as far as teaching goes in knowing how much information is too much, when to introduce it, and how.

At the same time that I was up to my eyeballs in the work of John Yandell and others regarding tennis, I was also reading a lot of things by people like Eric Cressey (works with a lot of baseball players, knows more about shoulders than most humans probably should). I was reading about flexiblity, mobility, stability, posture (mine was horrible), strength training, muscle activation, etc.. I was also beginning to apply this with my students on the court. Now, you can give a very athletic person (especially a kid) very basic instructions and some good fundamental checkpoints and they will figure most of this stuff out. In fact the best junior development guy I worked with really only hammered two things over and over and over and over for our tournament players...spacing and extension. He drilled those two things all day, with an extension point that looks almost exactly like the one John uses as a model. The rest of his magic sauce was just absolute will melting levels of fitness. It worked extremely well. However, my problem was trying to teach these movements to otherwise sedentary adults and children with limited athletic capacity. This is where I believe I hit on the most effective general teaching progression in my toolbox...

You start with the fundamental checkpoints for the stroke. They will struggle mightily at first. They might contort themselves into something resembling what you showed them, but the swing will be off somehow. You then identify the movement pattern that they appear most deficient in. You link muscles with the movements, and now the process really begins. Put the racquet down. Do an activation drill for that muscle group. You feel that? Good. Now, I might explain to a certain amount of detail why we are doing this...or I might not explain it at all...it depends on who I'm working with. Now let's pick the racquet up and isolate that part of the swing with a drill (no ball, I do like to use physical implements and barriers to give feedback and force a certain movement pattern though). Do you feel that same muscle? No?!?!? Put the damn racquet down, let's try this exercise again or another similar one. Pick the racquet up...do you feel it now? Yes. Next step. Reintegrate the movement into the swing with some shadow swings and then some consequence free hitting (not facing into the court, usually hitting into back curtain or side fence so they don't really have an idea where the ball would be going...who cares, we are working on the movement). Finally, you build into actually hitting the stroke and work from hand feeds, to feeds from the other side of the net, to full rallying. Always being willing to step back to one and restart the process, or jump back in where you feel there is competency. I would use video along these steps as well, but the tennis center put it at such a ridiculous price point that I didn't get to do that very often.

I had a chubby home schooled kid with mild Asperger's that used to have mini freak outs when I gave verbal instructions during drills. I taught him this way without ever saying a word about tennis for over a year (I'd talk with him about video games a lot) and he developed a heavy topspin forehand and a nasty kick serve. He's playing in college now. He actually might have graduated already...damn I'm old.

Just my two cents I wanted to add to this discussion. Side note, I've played tennis 12 out of the last 13 days and I'm playing singles again tomorrow....and it is glorious.

 

[tennishabit]

I just want to say that I've found this thread highly entertaining. I haven't posted here in years, but I am motivated to come out of retirement.

Short background on me for context. I'm a self-taught player from a small town in the middle of a cold weather tennis desert. I had never played indoors until I was 17, never played more than four months of the year until I got to college, and only played my first USTA tournament after college (zero junior tournament play, there are none around my area). I peaked at a 5.0 level and played DIII college tennis. Once took a set off a guy that played #1 for a a D1 school, yay me (lost a ten point tie-break for the third, booooooo). I have degrees in physics and computer science and spent a semester in graduate school working in biomechanics. I started teaching tennis part time when I was 16 and became a full time teaching pro when I was 24. I have 15 years of teaching under my belt, and used to work at one of the largest tennis centers in the *******. I've worked with nationally ranked juniors, beginner adults...gotten 3.0 hacks to 3.5, 3.5 to 4.0 and 4.0 to 4.5. I'm a big admirer of John Yandell, used to have a tennisplayer account and devoured every bit of info there (I was in charge of video analysis program at the tennis center as well). I've been through a lot over the past two years health wise and am currently rediscovering my love of tennis this summer.



Definitely NOT a crank, to a degree.

I'm a full on geek about all this stuff, so I want to know every little detail about how everything works. That has immense value to me both as a teacher and as a player. However, there is a definite skill as far as teaching goes in knowing how much information is too much, when to introduce it, and how.

At the same time that I was up to my eyeballs in the work of John Yandell and others regarding tennis, I was also reading a lot of things by people like Eric Cressey (works with a lot of baseball players, knows more about shoulders than most humans probably should). I was reading about flexiblity, mobility, stability, posture (mine was horrible), strength training, muscle activation, etc.. I was also beginning to apply this with my students on the court. Now, you can give a very athletic person (especially a kid) very basic instructions and some good fundamental checkpoints and they will figure most of this stuff out. In fact the best junior development guy I worked with really only hammered two things over and over and over and over for our tournament players...spacing and extension. He drilled those two things all day, with an extension point that looks almost exactly like the one John uses as a model. The rest of his magic sauce was just absolute will melting levels of fitness. It worked extremely well. However, my problem was trying to teach these movements to otherwise sedentary adults and children with limited athletic capacity. This is where I believe I hit on the most effective general teaching progression in my toolbox...

You start with the fundamental checkpoints for the stroke. They will struggle mightily at first. They might contort themselves into something resembling what you showed them, but the swing will be off somehow. You then identify the movement pattern that they appear most deficient in. You link muscles with the movements, and now the process really begins. Put the racquet down. Do an activation drill for that muscle group. You feel that? Good. Now, I might explain to a certain amount of detail why we are doing this...or I might not explain it at all...it depends on who I'm working with. Now let's pick the racquet up and isolate that part of the swing with a drill (no ball, I do like to use physical implements and barriers to give feedback and force a certain movement pattern though). Do you feel that same muscle? No?!?!? Put the damn racquet down, let's try this exercise again or another similar one. Pick the racquet up...do you feel it now? Yes. Next step. Reintegrate the movement into the swing with some shadow swings and then some consequence free hitting (not facing into the court, usually hitting into back curtain or side fence so they don't really have an idea where the ball would be going...who cares, we are working on the movement). Finally, you build into actually hitting the stroke and work from hand feeds, to feeds from the other side of the net, to full rallying. Always being willing to step back to one and restart the process, or jump back in where you feel there is competency. I would use video along these steps as well, but the tennis center put it at such a ridiculous price point that I didn't get to do that very often.

I had a chubby home schooled kid with mild Asperger's that used to have mini freak outs when I gave verbal instructions during drills. I taught him this way without ever saying a word about tennis for over a year (I'd talk with him about video games a lot) and he developed a heavy topspin forehand and a nasty kick serve. He's playing in college now. He actually might have graduated already...damn I'm old.

Just my two cents I wanted to add to this discussion. Side note, I've played tennis 12 out of the last 13 days and I'm playing singles again tomorrow....and it is glorious.

glad 2 c 1 of the best stories in gr8 depth, man. can u shine some light why it'd not b plausible on this pic:?))) seems we have very few problemsolver/troubleshooter can apply his/her vast/extensive knowledge on a very simple small case study which actually only need 30 something words to clarify here...........lololololol, manohman................

.......(I was in charge of video analysis program at the tennis center as well)........

wowow, impressive man..........here's just a simple single frame pic n not even a vid n 20-30 words'll b quite sufficient:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/ultimo/sports-partners/tennis-coach-hitting-partner/1082688638

seems this thread's hitting 7k views soon.......lololololol, manohman. gr8 4 every1 2 c.......lololololol.........

 

[MordredSJT]

Tennishabit, you've posted that picture multiple times asking for "analysis". I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for, and that's probably why it's been ignored. Tough to tell from still photo, but looks like a decent slot position and he bends his knees pretty well for a guy wearing a brace

 

[tennishabit]

Tennishabit, you've posted that picture multiple times asking for "analysis". I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for, and that's probably why it's been ignored. Tough to tell from still photo, but looks like a decent slot position and he bends his knees pretty well for a guy wearing a brace

i liked dis pic n dat's why i made a big poster, aft got permission from dis french guy, preparing for a friend's club 'meetup' gathering to make a few $$ for the club as so few ppl hire their courts nowadays.........but 1 of the organizers said not to use it w/o convincing explanations. dat's why i'd like to find out here as so many 'experts' wasting hrs+hrs assaying n instead a practical case study dat might be more convincing n much easier, if they know, ie really know...........

dis thread gonna hit 7k views soon, amazingly saw dat 1 yr old thread only got 8k views but dis <1 mth old is fast approaching 7k views.

seems any topic re. 'lag' 'rkt butting ball' etcetcetc selling like hot cakes so surely won't be 'ignored'..........dis indicated 000s n 000s out dere trying to get the fed's or any of the top pro's glorious/beautiful/powerful 'lagging' 'ball butting'..............but horribly disappointed abt own so visible but not so glorious/beautiful/powerful also got horrible wrist pain or even some injured permanently still stuck in the dark seeing no light yet, manohman..........................................

 

[JohnYandell]

Maybe if you didn't repeat yourself and spoke in understandable English and didn't post so many emogis people would reply. But one still pic doesn't explain any forehand.

 

[a12345]

I'm not sure the visualization of stopping is useful. I think what your describing is the kinetic chain but you tell a new player to 'stop' pieces of the swing it usually ends up with deceleration and lack of smoothness and consistency. I know what your trying to say, the swing is segmented, like a whip rotational forces lag between behind each other to accelerate the racquet head but stopping is not how i would describe it.

I would more say you drive from the feet - > hips - > shoulders - > arm. In that order. It's more of a lag not a series of stops.

You do not want smoothness and to be rhythmic, you want fast , almost jerky, stretchy, and explosive. A smooth stroke is an all around the world forehand , this is not that.

You can say feet > hips > shoulder > arm but that doesnt tell you enough about the the timing.

Is it:

feet > [hips > shoulder] > arm
[feet > hips ] > [Shoulder > arm]
feet > [hips > shoulder > arm]
feet > hips > shoulder > arm (equally timed and sequenced)

Im saying its:

[feet > hips > shoulder] > arm

At least its better to think of it like this.

Thats how the segmentation should feel. Feet hips shoulder as much as its in sequence will feel like 1 motion, and the arm another.

[ feet >. hips > shoulder] drags and stretches the arm into the slot position where the butt cap faces the ball, and the arm then takes over.

 

[tennishabit]

Maybe if you didn't repeat yourself and spoke in understandable English and didn't post so many emogis people would reply. But one still pic doesn't explain any forehand.

as said,

depending on whom communicating w/.........a simple preliminary redundancy method, ie to get rid of nonproblemsolvers ie blablabla-ers...................

very plausible/reasonable/watavable excuses not to reply, ie automated filtering, otherwise too many so called 'experts' n nonproblemsolvers' tldr blablabla.....n(n+1)bla........man, save their time 2 write n my time 2 read, win/win solution.....................

only want 2 c very few simple, straight-forward, spot-on from whom got bit problem solving skills, if any1 here.........lolololol, man

7k views yet:?))).............................................

 

[a12345]

So basically [ legs > hips > shoulders ] is the setup to get you to this position here:

Your arm should feel stretched and like its about to explode and release like an elastic band. Then the arm takes over.

[legs > hips > shoulder] is charging up the energy to get to that slot position. At the slot position its like youve loaded a bullet into a rifle, or pulled back on a bow and arrow.

When you reach the slot position, you pull the trigger and fire, which is to pull the arm through.

 

[a12345]

c'mon guys, dis 'hot cake' thread gonna hit 7k views soon....................w/ a small flaw, only a simple unsolved 'case study', lolololololol, manohman.............................

Just some advice, I know the style of writing you are doing is considered "flair" which might work on whatsapp and twitter, but on a message board its really hard for people to follow or understand anything you are saying. People just blank out when they see your flair posts and dont bother to even read them.

Dial it down a bit so we can understand what you are talking about.

 

[tennishabit]

Just some advice, I know the style of writing you are doing is considered "flair" which might work on whatsapp and twitter, but on a message board its really hard for people to follow or understand anything you are saying. People just blank out when they see your flair posts and dont bother to even read them.

Dial it down a bit so we can understand what you are talking about.

thnx 4 advice m8.........it's a simple 'filter' ie 'preliminary redundancy strategy' = only bit feasible troubleshooting w/ bit open mind required.........n 2 c if any dere/here..........otherwise too much time wasted on 2-way writing/reading.

tldr, m8......................

dis 'hot cake' thread's fast approaching 7k views, gr8 m8.....................

 

[tennishabit]

over 7k views now.............congrat man, w/ a pretty good 'natural lag' ytb vid 4 every1 to 'visualize', bonus 4 over 7k views...................

 

[a12345]

thnx 4 advice m8.........it's a simple 'filter' ie 'preliminary redundancy strategy' = only bit feasible troubleshooting w/ bit open mind required.........n 2 c if any dere/here..........otherwise too much time wasted on 2-way writing/reading.

tldr, m8......................

dis 'hot cake' thread's fast approaching 7k views, gr8 m8.....................

Think of it this way. If you write a short sentence in flair like on whatsapp you can convey a disproportionate degree of information in a short space, and limited number of characters.

However if you write multiple sentences or an entire paragraph in flair, it scrambles the brain and shoots the thought process off in multiple different directions which can be difficult to follow.

 

[tennishabit]

Think of it this way. If you write a short sentence in flair like on whatsapp you can convey a disproportionate degree of information in a short space, and limited number of characters.

However if you write multiple sentences or an entire paragraph in flair, it scrambles the brain and shoots the thought process off in multiple different directions which can be difficult to follow.

yep man, dat's 'problemsolving/troubleshooting reading mode' n i type less, win/win solution...........lololololololol, manohman..............

glad 2 c this thread's got viewed over 7k now n soon'll be 8k, >10x popular than any other thread n some 1yo but still not viewed/responded as dis much.............showing how keen ppl like to get 'atp fh/bh', especially effective/efficient fh topspin but still struggling.........................

 

[tennishabit]

rkt lagging= rkt butting ball apparently n just saw a ytb re. a 'brilliant invention' a 'pointer' made of foam which can be attached to the rkt butt for the 'ball butting' fasinaters to aim the ball precisely b4 hitting...................lolololololol manohman.....................

how abt installing an aimer on the butt:?))) or even better put a 20x scope there w/ night vision:?))) or, even much better fit a radar tracking/locking unit there....................

 

[undecided]

So basically [ legs > hips > shoulders ] is the setup to get you to this position here:

Your arm should feel stretched and like its about to explode and release like an elastic band. Then the arm takes over.

[legs > hips > shoulder] is charging up the energy to get to that slot position. At the slot position its like youve loaded a bullet into a rifle, or pulled back on a bow and arrow.

When you reach the slot position, you pull the trigger and fire, which is to pull the arm through.

Here is my problem with all the teachers who say keep your wrist loose and the lag will come. If I losen up my wrist the racquet flops over during the take back. How do I control the take back so that the racquet face is in the right place when my wrist is loose? What I do currently more of an abbreviated loop where I almost start at the pat the dog position but exaggerated further behind me like WTA.

 

[Dragy]

Here is my problem with all the teachers who say keep your wrist loose and the lag will come. If I losen up my wrist the racquet flops over during the take back. How do I control the take back so that the racquet face is in the right place when my wrist is loose? What I do currently more of an abbreviated loop where I almost start at the pat the dog position but exaggerated further behind me like WTA.

 

[tennishabit]

the vid abv quite true n if intentionally using wrist to wrestle the ball w/ huge tension upon impact........oolool, ouch out loud. every now n then u could hear dat from the other end n mostlike it's a junior boy got coached 'lagging' 'butting the ball' blabla etcetcetc..................

btw where's the foam hand pointer designed to be install on the rkt butt:?)))).............can't find it anymore. it really really helps 'visualizing' 'ball butting' 'lagging'.......lololololol manohman. they realized something then took it off from the ytb:?))))............................

 

[undecided]

Starting at 2:00 is the contradicting part of the instruction. They tell you where the wrist must be and how the racquet face should be controlled but how can that be done with a loose wrist? That's where my wrist tightens in order to control the racquet. I think more instruction is needed at this crucial point.

 

[Dragy]

Starting at 2:00 is the contradicting part of the instruction. They tell you where the wrist must be and how the racquet face should be controlled but how can that be done with a loose wrist? That's where my wrist tightens in order to control the racquet. I think more instruction is needed at this crucial point.

You need as much tightness to put the racquet into place you need it to be. Moreover, if you drop your arm from high backswing during the phase instead of holding it there waiting for the ball, keeping arm-racquet structure takes almost zero effort.

Now transitioning to forward swing your mild tightness is overwhelmed by racquet inertia which also signals to go even looser - not to tighten more and keep that angle you had dropping the racquet.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Starting at 2:00 is the contradicting part of the instruction. They tell you where the wrist must be and how the racquet face should be controlled but how can that be done with a loose wrist? That's where my wrist tightens in order to control the racquet. I think more instruction is needed at this crucial point.

You are right ... lose wrist is from forward swing (2:00). We all manage our backswing prep (arms/hands/racquet orientation, drops/loops) with "enough" muscle/tension for your prep. That is relaxed also ... but certainly not atp wrist fh forward swing relaxed.

I would also challenge/question "relaxed" in forward swing. If the racquet lag is created from arm roll and your are maintaining the extended hand/wrist forearm/racquet angle ... aren't we doing something to maintain that angle. Light grip for sure ... but the hand/wrist extension isn't it's natural/default state.

 

[ByeByePoly]

You need as much tightness to put the racquet into place you need it to be. Moreover, if you drop your arm from high backswing during the phase instead of holding it there waiting for the ball, keeping arm-racquet structure takes almost zero effort.

Now transitioning to forward swing your mild tightness is overwhelmed by racquet inertia which also signals to go even looser - not to tighten more and keep that angle you had dropping the racquet.

 

[tennishabit]

Starting at 2:00 is the contradicting part of the instruction. They tell you where the wrist must be and how the racquet face should be controlled but how can that be done with a loose wrist? That's where my wrist tightens in order to control the racquet. I think more instruction is needed at this crucial point.

'just do it', niked truth. lololololol, man..........watava instruction right or wrong won't change watava existing stuff instantly. good news' the bad instruction won't convert to bad habit instantly; bad news' good instruction won't convert to good habit instantly either........again, 'just do it'. love this slogan, man....................

got lost in desert:?))) u won't be panic if ur car's ok w/ enough fuel + water + food as u know eventually u'll be able to find way out.............................

so...........any1 hitting >1000 fh/bh everyday will surely feel it...................

 

[Deleted member 54265]

Maybe if you didn't repeat yourself and spoke in understandable English and didn't post so many emogis people would reply. But one still pic doesn't explain any forehand.

YES.

@tennishabit for non native speaking English persons like my self, your post a almost impossible to read and understand.

I would like to, and tried many times, but simply have to give up on all the shortcuts you make.

Cheers, Toby

 

[tennishabit]

YES.

@tennishabit for non native speaking English persons like my self, your post a almost impossible to read and understand.

I would like to, and tried many times, but simply have to give up on all the shortcuts you make.

Cheers, Toby

yep man, bit non-obligatory troubleshooting/problemsolving required n perfectly ok if not understand n give up..........................

 

[tennishabit]

the vid abv quite true n if intentionally using wrist to wrestle the ball w/ huge tension upon impact........oolool, ouch out loud. every now n then u could hear dat from the other end n mostlike it's a junior boy got coached 'lagging' 'butting the ball' blabla etcetcetc..................

btw where's the foam hand pointer designed to be install on the rkt butt:?)))).............can't find it anymore. it really really helps 'visualizing' 'ball butting' 'lagging'.......lololololol manohman. they realized something then took it off from the ytb:?))))............................

found it, guys. here's the foam 'ball butting' finger n enjoy it, man. not on ytb any more but available here............lolololololol, manohman.............

lucky not seeing this kind of crazy pointers often, imagine how many kids little wrists got injured if......... ......................

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=tennis%20united%20sydney%20academy&epa=SEARCH_BOX

 

[JohnYandell]

Semi,

To quote my post above:

"The brilliant biomechanical researcher Brian Gordon measured what actually happens. Elite players are actually inhibiting the forward flex to create the right contact point and control the shot line. If the forearm muscles controlling the wrist were totally relaxed the racket head would come all the way around to neutral or even further due to the forces in the swing."

So yeah you hold the wrist back. It's not "relaxed."