How would Nadal and Federer's careers look like if Djoko 2.0 had not emerged?

mehdimike

Hall of Fame
Who do you think benefited more? Also, imagine Nole had peaked in 2012 instead of 2011. Would that change the goat race in any way?
 

itrium84

Hall of Fame
There's a very tight race between Fed and Rafa in imaginary alternative history scenarios (they are far more successful than Novak in this category), so I genuinely can't tell. I guess it's up to their fanbases to resolve which one woulda coulda win more.

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Beckerserve

Legend
Who do you think benefited more? Also, imagine Nole had peaked in 2012 instead of 2011. Would that change the goat race in any way?
Nadal is unaffected. At best perhaps AO 2012 and W2018 he would have bagged but apart from that at Major level Djokovic has had little impact on his career. AO 2019 nadal looked better than he was actually and was lucky Federer choked 19 BPs v Tsitsipas as had he met Federer he would have been hammered. Federer has suffered the most without doubt. At least 3 Wimbledons and a couple of US opens Djokovic has cost him. I personally think Nadal would happily retire on 19 slams. No way he would have thought he would get that many. Federer i feel may be frustrated knowing he should have beaten Courts record.
 

Beckerserve

Legend
There's a very tight race between Fed and Rafa in imaginary alternative history scenarios (they are far more successful than Novak in this category), so I genuinely can't tell. I guess it's up to their fanbases to resolve which one woulda coulda win more.

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Nadal has hurt Djokovic more than the other way round which Djokovic has admitted many times and why he always says Nadal is his greatest rival. Given the ages of the three it is not a surprise. Federer at 6 years older than Djokovic in reality was a different era peak wise.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Let's see:

Fed definitely wins 2011 AO, 2014 Wimb, 2015 Wimb, 2015 USO, 2016 AO and 2019 Wimb.

Nadal definitely wins Wimb 2011, AO 2012, Wimb 2018 and AO 2019.

50/50 at USO 2011 between Fedal.

Fed would be ahead, IMO. 26 slams to 23.
 

Beckerserve

Legend
Let's see:

Fed definitely wins 2011 AO, 2014 Wimb, 2015 Wimb, 2015 USO, 2016 AO and 2019 Wimb.

Nadal definitely wins Wimb 2011, AO 2012, Wimb 2018 and AO 2019.

50/50 at USO 2011 between Fedal.

Fed would be ahead, IMO. 26 slams to 23.
What about how Nadal has hurt Djokovic? FO 2012 2013 2014, USO 2010 2013 and probably others i have forgotten. Out of the three i feel Nadal has overachieved the most in the sense he has had less disappointments. Getting more intricate im not sure Nadal can be frustrated about any of the ones you mention as Djokovic is a better hard court and grass player. Djokovic probably accepts the FO losses. I think Nadals 2 US Open wins over Djokovic are the most damaging losses either has suffered.
Talent wise Federer and Djokovic should be quite a way ahead in the slam race. I feel thats why Nadal keeps saying he is not fussed about the slam race. He probably feels he has more than he perhaps should have given his natural talent.
Federer is unfortunate he had two ATGS 5 and 6 years younger than him in his 30s. Nadal and Djokovic have got lucky that bar each other and Roger past his glorious best they have had nothing to worry about really. Federer is bound to have the most disappointments, w 2019 the obvious one, but on the flip side but for being a lot older than 2 ATGS he would have bagged many more Majors so over time i am sure he will have pride in being the 3rd best player in the world at almost 40 behind two ATGS. And please nobody say but Thiem is no.3. Federer is when fit still easily the 3rd best player out there.
 

Milanez82

Hall of Fame
Nadal is unaffected. At best perhaps AO 2012 and W2018 he would have bagged but apart from that at Major level Djokovic has had little impact on his career. AO 2019 nadal looked better than he was actually and was lucky Federer choked 19 BPs v Tsitsipas as had he met Federer he would have been hammered. Federer has suffered the most without doubt. At least 3 Wimbledons and a couple of US opens Djokovic has cost him. I personally think Nadal would happily retire on 19 slams. No way he would have thought he would get that many. Federer i feel may be frustrated knowing he should have beaten Courts record.
Nadal lost 3 slam finals in a row to Djokovic plus that Wimb18 and AO19 run
That's 5 slams for him at the top of the head
Fed was lucky he didn't get to face Rafa in those Us Opens
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Nadal lost 3 slam finals in a row to Djokovic plus that Wimb18 and AO19 run
That's 5 slams for him at the top of the head
Fed was lucky he didn't get to face Rafa in those Us Opens
You do realize Fed has lost more slams to Djokovic than Nadal, right? He has been anything but lucky.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Let's see:

Fed definitely wins 2011 AO, 2014 Wimb, 2015 Wimb, 2015 USO, 2016 AO and 2019 Wimb.

Nadal definitely wins Wimb 2011, AO 2012, Wimb 2018 and AO 2019.

50/50 at USO 2011 between Fedal.

Fed would be ahead, IMO. 26 slams to 23.
Well, this is assuming everything else stays exactly the same. (which was not going to happen. Things would change, maybe other players would be better and so on)
 

Rago

Hall of Fame
Nadal would be a 3 time Champ at every slam as well if not for Djokovic.

In a way, Nadal already has multiple slam titles on slow HC (since USO has been slow as molasses since 2017).
 

DjokoLand

Hall of Fame
Well when Djokovic went awol from the USO 16 to W18 Fedal won 6 slams in a row do the maths they would have 25+ each
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
My best bet is that Federer and Nadal would have won about 12 or 13 more Slams, Murray would have won a couple more and other players would have won a couple. Federer would have probably won 7 or 8 more Slams and Nadal might have won maybe 4 or 5 more.

So, Djokovic has probably hurt Federer more than Nadal as he has won so many Slams on Federer’s best surfaces while he has taken away only one Slam on clay in a FO where Nadal was already out. I don’t think Nadal would be just behind Federer in Slam count if Djokovic did not exist. So, Djokovic might be the only reason that Nadal is still in the GOAT discussion.
 

SinneGOAT

Legend
I think 2011 would have been a repeat of 2010. And 2019 would be another 2010, ala Nadal winning 3 out of 4 slams.
 

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
Fed and Nadal would be past 25 slams each for sure or would have retired earlier. But I still cannot imagine them without Djokovic 2.0. The Big 3 is by far the greatest tennis story.
 

vernonbc

Legend
Fed and Nadal would be past 25 slams each for sure or would have retired earlier. But I still cannot imagine them without Djokovic 2.0. The Big 3 is by far the greatest tennis story.
I think the bigger tennis story -- and the one that is most seldom brought up -- is the total failure of the next generation, or lost generation, of tennis. Has any renowned tennis player ever been as lucky as Djokovic to have absolutely no competition coming up behind him to challenge him? Fed had Rafa and then Rafa had Djoke and Murray to push them and take some titles from them. Djoke has had no one and he has coasted to many freebies.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
Has any renowned tennis player ever been as lucky as Djokovic to have absolutely no competition coming up behind him to challenge him? Fed had Rafa and then Rafa had Djoke and Murray to push them and take some titles from them. Djoke has had no one and he has coasted to many freebies.

Why do you think that Djokovic is lucky, but not Nadal? They are almost the same age and play the same field?
 

vernonbc

Legend
Why do you think that Djokovic is lucky, but not Nadal? They are almost the same age and play the same field?
Duh. Nadal had both Djokovic and Murray, and even del Potro, to challenge him. The only one who competed against Djoke was Murray until his body broke down.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
Djokovic and Nadal played/play exactly the same field. How they faced/face different field if they played/play the same field? I think that you have a unique way of thinking. I would like to understand your thought process.
 
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Enceladus

Legend
Nadal has hurt Djokovic more than the other way round which Djokovic has admitted many times and why he always says Nadal is his greatest rival. Given the ages of the three it is not a surprise. Federer at 6 years older than Djokovic in reality was a different era peak wise.
It is not true. The two deprived each other of 5 grandslam titles - Djokovic prevented Nadal win Wimbledon 2011 & 2018, US Open 2011, Australian Open 2012 & 2019; Nadal prevented Djokovic win US Open 2010 & 2013, French Open 2012-2014. Their remaining grandslam matches didn't decide the winner of the tournament.
 
Its impossible to tell, since the draws would have changed and the players career trajectories would have changed. Maybe novak would have still won a few slams, maybe nadal would have had less injuries, maybe stan would have won more(like AO13).
 

Beckerserve

Legend
It is not true. The two deprived each other of 5 grandslam titles - Djokovic prevented Nadal win Wimbledon 2011 & 2018, US Open 2011, Australian Open 2012 & 2019; Nadal prevented Djokovic win US Open 2010 & 2013, French Open 2012-2014. Their remaining grandslam matches didn't decide the winner of the tournament.
But while Djokovic should beat Nadal in Australia and wimbledon nadal should not be beating him in New York really as it goes against their general HC h2h.
 

Beckerserve

Legend
Nadal lost 3 slam finals in a row to Djokovic plus that Wimb18 and AO19 run
That's 5 slams for him at the top of the head
Fed was lucky he didn't get to face Rafa in those Us Opens
Djokovic is a better player in Australia and wimbledon so we cannot say nadal lost slams when he lost to Djokovic there.
 
D

Deleted member 771911

Guest
Probably would have retired 2013 (Federer) and Nadal (2014)?
 
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