Huge Changes to US Open Mixed Doubles Format
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WYK
Legend
WYK
Legend
I couldnt help but notice during the superbowl advert that they purposefully edited out any chance of us having to endure the noise of pickelball during the commercial...
If they get some star power this might work and turn into something like the United Cup which brings men and women together with stars that will be playing in Oz.
People will look to this as a preview to the next two weeks.
Unfortunately, it comes at the expense of the doubles players.
There is a conudrum here, continue to support the doubles specialist and stadiums won't be very full and only tennis afficinados will watch. Or, create an event that can and will sell tickets and hype up your upcoming event.
I still think it would've been better to stick with 6 game sets and at least have have the entry based on dubs points. Just a slap in the face to all the players who have committed to dubs.
It is sad because I think dubs offers a good contrast to singles. With faster points and different strategy. Ideally the two should blend together well, but the general public and general tennis public are drawn mainly by the stars.
The only way to save doubles across the tour is to make the points rankings a combination of doubles and singles results.
If you win a singles masters title you get 1000 points. If you and your buddy win a masters title you split 1000 points. So you each get 500 points.
First, this will let some dubs players get into lower singles tourneys for extra money, 2nd this will motivate top singles players to stick around for dubs if they exit early from a singles draw they can still get points on the doubles court. This will also draw potential interest to dubs when rankings are at stake and dubs results can factor in there. Imagine Alcaraz snags the #1 ranking by winning Miami Dubs with Fokina. You'd have to figure out some balance of how many tournaments to factor in etc like they do now. But I think it is the only way to save dubs. Unfortunately, no one wants to market dubs only so you need the singles stars to lift it up. And if mixed over time, people will see singles and dubs players as stars.
People will look to this as a preview to the next two weeks.
Unfortunately, it comes at the expense of the doubles players.
There is a conudrum here, continue to support the doubles specialist and stadiums won't be very full and only tennis afficinados will watch. Or, create an event that can and will sell tickets and hype up your upcoming event.
I still think it would've been better to stick with 6 game sets and at least have have the entry based on dubs points. Just a slap in the face to all the players who have committed to dubs.
It is sad because I think dubs offers a good contrast to singles. With faster points and different strategy. Ideally the two should blend together well, but the general public and general tennis public are drawn mainly by the stars.
The only way to save doubles across the tour is to make the points rankings a combination of doubles and singles results.
If you win a singles masters title you get 1000 points. If you and your buddy win a masters title you split 1000 points. So you each get 500 points.
First, this will let some dubs players get into lower singles tourneys for extra money, 2nd this will motivate top singles players to stick around for dubs if they exit early from a singles draw they can still get points on the doubles court. This will also draw potential interest to dubs when rankings are at stake and dubs results can factor in there. Imagine Alcaraz snags the #1 ranking by winning Miami Dubs with Fokina. You'd have to figure out some balance of how many tournaments to factor in etc like they do now. But I think it is the only way to save dubs. Unfortunately, no one wants to market dubs only so you need the singles stars to lift it up. And if mixed over time, people will see singles and dubs players as stars.
Who in their right mind would pay to see a mixed doubles match when there are free singles matches to view on the National Tennis Center grounds?
Match formats in slam tournaments should be consistent. Best of 4 game sets makes no sense. Oh yeah, and they want you to pay to watch less tennis. It makes no sense to hold a slam tournament during qualies week.
Don't forget that there are significant US Open warm-up events being played during qualies week that will compete with the Mixed Doubles for participation. This will result in a smaller group of players able to compete in the mixed doubles.
Match formats in slam tournaments should be consistent. Best of 4 game sets makes no sense. Oh yeah, and they want you to pay to watch less tennis. It makes no sense to hold a slam tournament during qualies week.
Don't forget that there are significant US Open warm-up events being played during qualies week that will compete with the Mixed Doubles for participation. This will result in a smaller group of players able to compete in the mixed doubles.
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Shaolin
Talk Tennis Guru
Mixed dubs was throw under the bus by the fans (or lack of) long before the organizers did this.
Better_Call_Raul
Legend
4 game sets might work...
Am afraid to even ask this but please tell us they will not be shameless enough to play a tiebreaker in lieu of a third set.
That would be criminal given that the sets have already been shortened from 6 games to 4 games.
LeftyMagic
Semi-Pro
someone mentioned it, doubles used to be a big deal at slams for even top singles players. more rec tennis folks play dubs than singles, ive never understood why they didnt trycto market it more? is it THAT unwatchable? i learn more watching the tactics there than 22 yr old phenoms in singles moving like i never will again lol.
didnt morotoglou have his singles event that week before the us open too?
didnt morotoglou have his singles event that week before the us open too?
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
The last time doubles was a big deal at the slams was the the 1980s. You can see packed stands for the USO men's doubles finals with Mac, Edberg, Noah, Leconte etc playing specialists like Flach Seguso etc. Then in the 90s you see virtually no one watching finals with Woodies or Eltingh/Haaruis(and none of those guys were bad at singles, they were all in draws of singles as well). And then you got Nestor/Knowles/Paes etc and it got even worse. I remember Cliff Drysdale saying around 2000 in an interview online that anytime they showed doubles on ESPN, virtually every TV tuned in would switch the channel.
The ATP tried to basically eliminate doubles specialists around 2005(only allowing singles players into doubles draw), but the Bryan brothers sued and they backed down. They did go along with changing the scoring system to no ad and super TB in place of 3rd set in 2006. Originally ATP wanted to have only 5 game sets, but they caved on that after the lawsuit.
So really, doubles specialists have been a bit lucky the last 20 years to get a stay of execution in essence, not really surprised there eventually would be more changes(if this USO experiment with mixed doubles works, you can bet other slams will follow(I think attendance for doubles at RG is probably the worst of all the slams, they will be next I'm sure).
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Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
In other news the Mixed Dubs invitational event from last year is returning to Indian Wells
bnpparibasopen.com
last year it was pretty much only dubs specialists entered
en.wikipedia.org
BNP Paribas Open Mixed Doubles Invitational
The BNP Paribas Open Mixed Doubles Invitational returns in 2027, continuing the momentum from its debut at the 2024 BNP Paribas Open. That first year marked the
last year it was pretty much only dubs specialists entered
2024 BNP Paribas Open – Mixed doubles - Wikipedia
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
The official Australian Open podcast discussed this new change(thoughts by top dubs player Storm Hunter)
silentkman
Hall of Fame
Mixed doubles is only played four times a year. Nothing will happen with men's and women's doubles.
diggler
Hall of Fame
ATP should have just had the doubles with no prizemoney. #### the Bryan Brothers.
IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA. The 2025 U.S. Open Mixed Doubles will be played over 2 days only - on a Tuesday and Wednesday in the middle of fan week. WHAT IS A FINAL DOING ON A WEDNESDAY?? This is total nonsense. The USTA person who came up with this awful idea should be FIRED. The entire format and timing are ridiculous.
I would argue they don't sell tickets because over the years they have not received the same marketing that singles gets. As the game has become more specialized singles stars play less and less dubs and hence dubs gradually became a side-show instead of a complement to singles. You might say the dubs don't sell tickets, I'd argue anyone outside of the top 20 doesn't really sell tickets unless they have a major personality or locally appeal to the hosting country. How many tickets has Kohlschreiber, Evans, Nakashima, etc. truly sold? It's all about star power. So if you want to broaden ticket sales and appeal you need to create more stars. I'd even argue 250's probably share some of the difficulties the dubs circuit faces if a top 20 guy can't make it.
There are two ironies here, first dubs is fun to watch. Yet, people don't flock to it. 2nd, for dubs to draw a crowed, we probably need to rely on the singles stars until dubs players can be stars. I think this is a hard hill to climb.
I still think the best thing to do is create a combined dubs/singles ranking system.
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diggler
Hall of Fame
On a different thread I argued that the early rounds of majors should be best of 3. One of the reasons the top players don't play doubles is it is too demanding on top of 7 best of 5 set singles matches. Tennis is incredibly physically demanding nowadays and we just keep expecting more and more. Back in the 80s, Vitas, Borg and McEnroe could hit the nightclubs after a match. It isn't like that anymore. Nadal and Djokovic played a 6 hour final where they were constantly bashing the ball and sprinting backwards and forwards and all I saw here was people whingeing about the time between points. We can't expect the top players to play doubles if the singles tournament is so physically demanding.
RSJfan
Legend
A decent amount of the time was butt-picking and ball bouncing exercises.
mtommer
Hall of Fame
How about they just nix it altogether. Either that or turn it into the pre-tournament exbo with the top doubles teams combined into two teams vs. the top four singles men and women combined into two doubles teams. Maybe each team plays a set and the winners play a final set, no prize money but a nice donation to a charity and attendees pick their winning team, a fan of the winning team is drawn and wins a meet and greet and a car or something.
The U.S. Open breaks ticket sales records almost every year. The problem is not ticket sales; the problem is that enough people are not present to watch the mixed doubles competition. But, it still appeals to tennis diehards like me and to the pros who play it. Winning any slam is important and there is serious competition among players for a slam title regardless of whether it's the mixed doubles or not.
Promotion is essential. Make the mixed doubles final a night match on Ashe Stadium that is broadcast worldwide! That's all you have to do. Have the men's or women's evening semifinal match followed by the mixed doubles final. Putting the final on a Wednesday during fan week when there is hardly any TV coverage is a kiss of death and is NOT AN IMPROVEMENT. With the advent of doubles specialists, the quality of doubles matches has improved incredibly and are worth watching. Most tennis players play doubles rather than singles so there is an audience among tennis players that is not being marketed. Doubles specialists should be promoted as stars of the game. They should be making more personal appearances locally and at the U.S. Open including player interviews on TV. The promo is simple: If you play doubles then come watch us! Just give us a real slam with full sets so there is no question about the scoring. Broadcast more doubles matches and stop placing the mixed doubles finals as the first match of the day. If you only promote the singles competition then that's all that people will see and turn out for. Doubles specialists are worth watching!
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RSJfan
Legend
“Pre-tournament” is a qualifying event with 256 players playing three rounds to qualify. They don’t need an exho going at the same time. The main draw players also need courts to practice. If they must do it qualies week squeezing it into two days and getting top players is not a bad way to go.
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mtommer
Hall of Fame
I thought they always had those days where the top players played games for charities or something. Ex players vs. current ones. I think Will Ferrell was there once. Whatever that is, replace it with mixed doubles or even just add it to the schedule for those days.
RSJfan
Legend
The past few years they’ve had ticketed Exo events at night on Armstrong with top players playing singles and mixed doubles too and they sold well. I think they also had some ex-player matches to fill in the night. I think that because these events sold well is what prompted them on the mixed idea. Get top players and people will pay for mixed. So I think they’re doing what you’re suggesting replacing those events with a new mixed event with real prize money and two days only so it’s not a major time commitment for the name players. So maybe it will be at night and not compete with free qualies.
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I think this is a great point.
On top of that ESPN/TC and whoever else covers tennis needs to start interviewing the dubs contenders/winners. Go beyond the occasional highlight of some bizzre point. Even if it isn't a featured match on the main feed having a 5 minute bite interviewing the dubs team the day before finals would be a way to start generating interest. Imagine ESPN is showing the men's single quarterfinals. While you are doing pre show stuff, go to earlier today "Siniakova and Townsend earned a spot in the Women's Dubs finals." Then show a 2-5 minute interview with them and end it with their match will be featured Saturday noon on ESPN Plus/3/Whatever.
During the year TC should be including more interviews and personality spots on dubs players too. Start getting these players into our minds. If we don't see them, we can't even believe they exist.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I’m grateful for tennisTV.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
In a battle featuring a trio of ex World #1s trying to stop the freefall from past glory, 2 ex #1s were better than 1.
Salisbury/Skup get a much needed win over Ebden/Vliegen.
Salisbury/Skup get a much needed win over Ebden/Vliegen.
Enceladus
Legend
A decent amount of the time was butt-picking and ball bouncing exercises.
Moving the Mixed Doubles tournament to fan week and playing it over 2 days with the final on a Wednesday will NOT make anyone watch it! You really have to be delusional to believe that this is a positive change.
Maybe no one (or few anyway) will watch Ebden play doubles in the USA BUT they will watch in Australia. Mixed doubles includes many international stars including Arevalo (from El Salvador), Bopanna (India), Ostapenko (Latvia), Vavassori & Errani (defending champs from Italy) and others. The mixed is really a worldwide competition. If you want to promote the Mixed Doubles then broadcast the final on TV during the U.S. Open proper but don't completely marginalize it by moving it to the Tuesday & Wednesday of fan week, shortening the format, holding it when warm-up tournaments are being played and charging entry (when admission to the qualies outside are free). These delusional changes are really a recipe for disaster. Reverse this crazy decision NOW.
Agree and to some extent disagree.
You got to start somewhere and I am frustrated the dubs players are getting the shaft, but on the other hand if Djokovic/Sabalenka vs. Alcaraz/Gauff brings some light to doubles and gets some tennis fans to watch the finals on ESPN it's a start. On top of that, hopefully the players take it seriously and it doesn't take on the attitude of a full exo. People have been watching the United Cup before Oz so this might work. Again, just wish the draw as at least 50% based on dubs rankings.
diggler
Hall of Fame
I'm an Australian. I would only watch Matt Ebden in a grand slam final.
Nobody is watching it now so it can't get any worse. People only want to watch stars. If someone beats one of the stars, then some of the stardom will rub off onto them.
Aren't you forgetting something important? The Mixed Doubles is important to the professional competitors! It's an important part of a slam tournament. There are many fine professional players who you would not call stars who want to win a slam even if it's the Mixed Doubles. And, this proposal diminishes a title that these professional tennis players would cherish. The week before a slam, all of the stars are perfecting their singles games. Playing mixed doubles that week will not help their singles preparation because it's a different game with less court to cover. The mixed doubles is far from being an ideal warm-up tournament and I don't want to see it reduced to hit and giggle tennis. I'm a yank who resides in NYC and has attended the U.S. Open almost every year. If, in my opinion, the most entertaining match to watch at the U.S. Open was a mixed doubles match then I would be in the stands. There are no qualifying matches on the Friday and Saturday before the tournament. Those would be better days to hold the Mixed Doubles.
I am also concerned because if the Mixed Doubles is played over 2 days then winning teams would have to play matches at least twice on the same day. Do you think that's fair? It's probably the reason the format was shortened. Still, it makes NO SENSE to hold the tournament on a Tuesday and a Wednesday with the format of an exhibition. NONE. In fact, it's ridiculous and an insult to the doubles specialists who play in it.
When the U.S. Open was considering whether to keep its Super Saturday format, I (and others) wrote in and said that we wanted a real Slam tournament with days of rest before the finals. I still want a real Slam tournament. The proposed changes to the Mixed Doubles is an insult to the players and to serious fans of the game. Just give us a real Slam tournament and that includes holding the Mixed Doubles during the tournament proper, played with full sets. Anything less is not a Slam.
Opelka: They should 100% get rid of dubs. It’s for failed singles players.” He further criticized doubles for not attracting audiences and consuming resources, stating, “They don’t sell a single ticket, they take up practice courts/physios/resources.”
I wonder what bob Bryan thinks about this, given that he's the Davis cup coach.
I wonder what bob Bryan thinks about this, given that he's the Davis cup coach.
RSJfan
Legend
Opelka doesn’t sell a single ticket either. But you need a full draw to play a tournament. Doubles and mixed fill the schedules during slams. People absolutely watch both. And if there is a top (or clown) player it definitely draws. For broadcast purposes it doesn’t draw at all but, again, neither does Opelka.
PS, really should provide a reputable source if you’re quoting people.
RSJfan
Legend
Super Saturday was one of the greatest days to attend any tournament in tennis. And I don‘t mean fake Super Saturday. I mean one ticket for two men’s semis and the women’s final tossed in the middle like a palate cleanser.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I’ve been attending tournaments for decades and never been interested in watching a mixed doubles match. I probably watch 1-2 doubles matches for every 8-10 singles matches at tournaments. On TV, I almost never watch doubles except the occasional Slam final. I could be considered a serious tennis fan as I watch tennis on TV about 20 weeks a year and play tennis daily. So if people like me don’t have much interest in being entertained by pro doubles, I guess the casual fans probably want to watch it even less.
It is hard for tournaments to spend a lot of resources on mixed doubles if enough fans don’t show interest to keep it financially viable.
It is hard for tournaments to spend a lot of resources on mixed doubles if enough fans don’t show interest to keep it financially viable.
Super Saturday was one of the greatest days to attend any tournament in tennis. And I don‘t mean fake Super Saturday. I mean one ticket for two men’s semis and the women’s final tossed in the middle like a palate cleanser.
How many dud men's U.S. Open finals were there because the players had not had a full day to recover from their 5-set semifinal the day before or because their semifinal finished at 11 PM at night the day before? Was the 1984 men's final a great match or were both players still spent from the day prior? Same with the Ferrero v. Roddick men's final. The women's final did not have a specific start time. The players should know when their final match will definitely begin. And, it was just too much tennis for the broadcasters because it took all day. Finally, how many fans were still in the stands for the full 2nd men's semi? Super Saturday was overkill. And, for a match as important as the men's final on the following day, which you want to be memorable, you had to feel for the tennis pros who had reached the match of a lifetime but had not fully recovered from their matches on Super Saturday. The problem with Super Saturday scheduling was that it treated the pros almost as a commodity. All tennis professionals dream of winning a slam tournament. Questionable scheduling should not impede those dreams.
diggler
Hall of Fame
I actually preferred it when the Aussie Open had semis on Thursday and Friday night prime time. I don't want to watch 2 men's semis in 1 day. Ok, not even for the finalists, but they get a minimum of 2 days rest.
Can't see any benefit in Super Saturday. Results in a **** final. Can't see how it benefits the viewer either. Men's matches on Saturday afternoon, Saturday night and Sunday night. No thanks.
diggler
Hall of Fame
It is a money making enterprise, not a sheltered workshop. Professional competitors? I'm happy to pay the prizemoney commensurate with the ticket sales i.e. zero.
It's more than a money making enterprise to the players and the fans. It's a chance to be part of history and to have a professional's name added to the record books. The event has tradition that has been ongoing for over a century. Fans like to see history and records being made. Keep the tradition and hold the Mixed Doubles during the tournament with full sets. Give us a real Slam event - one for the record books.
When I've been to Cincy some of the best matches we watched were the doubles. Next time you are at a tourney you should give it a try. Bigger energy with 4 players on the court and the team concept. Faster action.
Tennis has so much opportunity wtih dubs and keeps missing it. Tennis is great for a lot of the variety of styles, players, strategies players can use and doubles adds several other layers ot it. Early on in a tournament if you are just watching the 50-100 players play singles in the first round, it can get a little repetitive and doubles balances it out really well.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I watch a few doubles matches.
RSJfan
Legend
There will be more total prize money, half the number of teams and shorter matches. The combination of which USTA believes will attract “name” players that will attract more interest from fans. They’ve already arranged with ESPN for broadcast.
The field is reduced from 32 teams (5 rounds) to 16 teams (4 rounds). Half the teams will be given wild card entry to get the “name” players in.
They already mentioned Fritz and Pegula as being into it. Egg could potentially be into it. He’s a trophy pig.
And Fedal never won a mixed major adding additional inducement. Egg also enjoys the adoration of the NY crowd (which he could receive in this type of event) even though it weakens him.
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At last year's IW, we watched the Layla Fernandez Diane Parry match. It was painfully long, even though I like both players. As soon as Ben Shelton and Chris Eubanks came on, the energy in the stadium was electric. Granollers/Zeballos smashed them in straights, but it was amazing to watch in person.
RSJfan
Legend
In person, I enjoy both doubles and mixed. On TV, not on a dare.
There will be more total prize money, half the number of teams and shorter matches. The combination of which USTA believes will attract “name” players that will attract more interest from fans. They’ve already arranged with ESPN for broadcast.
The field is reduced from 32 teams (5 rounds) to 16 teams (4 rounds). Half the teams will be given wild card entry to get the “name” players in.
They already mentioned Fritz and Pegula as being into it. Egg could potentially be into it. He’s a trophy pig.
It's been reduced to an exhibition and is not a slam worthy event. Very, very sad. USTA has got to be kidding. The people behind this exhibition pretending to be a serious slam tournament need to resign.
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