Hypothetical a healthy Court plays in 1974

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BTURNER

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We know that Margaret Court won 3 of the four majors in 1973, did not play hardly at all in 1974, and that she never got to a single major final when she came back on the tour in 1975. How well do you think she would have done if she had played the 1974 season? Which majors would she have taken and from whom?

A quick review at the Aussie (2) Goolagong beat (3)Melville in one half, (1) Evert (4) Heldman and Goolagong took the prize
Leslie Hunt was the fifth seed and trust me there was nobody else there to cause any grief below that. Assuming Court is the top seed, she would be in the Goolagong half and I know Goolagong lost to her in '71 but had beaten her in the Aussie circuit even before that because she said so in an interview after the '71 win.

At RG (1) Evert beat (3) Mastoff in one half. Unseeded Morazova beat unseeded Giscafre in the other and Evert took the prize.
(5)Navratilova was beaten by Mastoff, and (2) Wade disappeared in R32. I don't know who was the fourth seed but my guess is that the site forgot to put that little 4 besides Melville who is seeded at the other majors and played here. Court would lead the field and play Evert for the second consecutive final . I don't see Helga as stopping her!

At Wimbledon Evert (2) beat (6) Melville in one half, while ( number eight seed) Morazova took down (5) Wade and Evert took the prize.
(1) King lost to Morazova and Melville beat (3) Goolagong. Casals at #4 lost in R16, and Navratilova (wasn't seeded) lost to Jausevic. If court was seeded one or two, we are looking at another semifinal meeting with Chris ( Evert beat her in 1973) and the King in a final.

At the OPen (1) King beat Heldman in one semifinal, (5) Goolagong beat (2) Evert in the other and King won the final
(4) Melville fell to Goolagong, (number eight seed) Hunt lost to Evert, (6) Casals lost to King, and (7) Wade lost in R32. Nobody is listed as the third seed, Nancy Richey lost to Heldman in the QF , who had just finished beating Navratilova the round before. Again she is likely to meet Evert in a semifinal, this is one Margaret took in 1973 on the way to the final. Does Court beat King and Evert back to back?

Which majors does Margaret take?

My gut says that Evert is ready to win her first major, and its going to be on dirt. I think Court wins her 12th Aussie, and her fourth Wimbledon, but King still wins at forest hills. Evert and Evonne lose a major each and Court ends up at 26 majors?
 
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Considering her slam count is already inflated by a good 5 or 6 thanks to the Farceralian Open thank goodness she didn't.

However since you ask I think she would have had a great shot to win Wimbledon, although who knows as Chris did beat her there in 73. I don't think she would have beaten Chris at the French this year, which would have helped take the pressure off going into Wimbledon though IMO. She also would have had a great shot at the U.S Open, however both King and Goolagong played some great tennis there so it would be no gimme, especialy if she had to beat both (her chances increase if she and Evert are seeded 1st and 2nd, and she only has to beat 1 of King or Goolagong). At the Australian Open, well that is her baby so of course a great shot, but here too Goolagong was playing very well, and Evert not bad at all.

I would say 1 or 2 slams, leaning towards 2. Some combination of Wimbledon, U.S Open, Australian, but not sure which. Would not win the French again. Would give Evert a decent fight, way better than Morozova did, but fall short. Evert would be hungry for revenge after 73, and those 32 year old legs wouldn't be up to the task on that slow court anymore.
 
spencerjudd said:
Considering her slam count is already inflated by a good 5 or 6 thanks to the Farceralian Open thank goodness she didn't.

However since you ask I think she would have had a great shot to win Wimbledon, although who knows as Chris did beat her there in 73. I don't think she would have beaten Chris at the French this year, which would have helped take the pressure off going into Wimbledon though IMO. She also would have had a great shot at the U.S Open, however both King and Goolagong played some great tennis there so it would be no gimme, especialy if she had to beat both (her chances increase if she and Evert are seeded 1st and 2nd, and she only has to beat 1 of King or Goolagong). At the Australian Open, well that is her baby so of course a great shot, but here too Goolagong was playing very well, and Evert not bad at all.

I would say 1 or 2 slams, leaning towards 2. Some combination of Wimbledon, U.S Open, Australian, but not sure which. Would not win the French again. Would give Evert a decent fight, way better than Morozova did, but fall short. Evert would be hungry for revenge after 73, and those 32 year old legs wouldn't be up to the task on that slow court anymore.
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We came to most of the same conclusions. I think of the 1974 Wimbledon as Evert's 'lucky' slam. I just don't think she was ready yet to take down a big dog on Centre Court in a final. Morazova had one hell of a tournament in beating King and Wade, but asking her to do a three-peat over Evert or Court was not in the cards. I think Court is likely to win once King is out. I really not sure what happens at the Open, and as you say Goolagong is the one and only player that plays the Aussie grass well enough to threaten Court.
 
The King-Goolagong final at that years U.S Open was amazing. Heartbreaking to see Evonne so narrowly lose, but a stupendous match. The U.S Open final on clay the following year between Goolagong-Evert was nearly as good. The 73 final between Court-Goolagong was quite good as well, and probably would have been a straight set win for Goolagong had she won the 1st set tiebreaker.

Such a shame for Evonne to play 3 such great tournaments, and not come out the winner of any of them, and ultimately never get a U.S Open title. 74 of all of those was the one she came closest to in that 3rd set.
 
Margaret Court didn't play much for most of 1972 either. She could well have added a GS title or two that year as well, considering what she did in 73 and with the grass courts prevalent then. I don't know about 1974, but in retrospect it's possible Court may have won a Major. Chrissie made her breakthrough in the summer of 1974, but she was beaten a few times by Evonne Goolagong across the year including at the AO early in the year and at the USO. She posed Evert a lot of problems back then on turf and faster surfaces. Chris didn't have to play Evonne in Paris or Wimbledon, where Evonne lost in an earlier round to Melville. The French Open field doesn't look that strong now with no Court ( who would have been defending champion), no Goolagong (WTT) who was a former champion in 71, and a 17 year old Navratilova who was pre-prime and took later to get her act together. It's possible 31/32 year old Margaret could have won a Major in 74, I suppose.
 
1974 could have easily been Goolagong's dominant year. She probably wins Wimbledon without playing an awful match and going out to freaking Melville. That would already probably make her POY, with winning the Australian, and beating Evert at both the U.S Open and Australian (and now presumably Wimbledon too) all in the same year. That U.S Open final with King of course could have gone either way too.
 
spencerjudd said:
1974 could have easily been Goolagong's dominant year. She probably wins Wimbledon without playing an awful match and going out to freaking Melville. That would already probably make her POY, with winning the Australian, and beating Evert at both the U.S Open and Australian (and now presumably Wimbledon too) all in the same year. That U.S Open final with King of course could have gone either way too.
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Except with Evonne you will always get some of those awful matches. you can suppose she does not have it Wimbledon, but you can't really suppose she won't replace it with another at an equally vital moment in the tennis calendar. That's as much a part of her as any other part of her tennis game.
 
I think Evert would have won the French anyway even with Court around. Court would have had a chance to win any of the other 3, but only if she did not have to play Evert in any of these tournaments. I don't see Court beating Evert in 1974 on any surface.
 
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spencerjudd said:
Considering her slam count is already inflated by a good 5 or 6 thanks to the Farceralian Open thank goodness she didn't.

However since you ask I think she would have had a great shot to win Wimbledon, although who knows as Chris did beat her there in 73. I don't think she would have beaten Chris at the French this year, which would have helped take the pressure off going into Wimbledon though IMO. She also would have had a great shot at the U.S Open, however both King and Goolagong played some great tennis there so it would be no gimme, especialy if she had to beat both (her chances increase if she and Evert are seeded 1st and 2nd, and she only has to beat 1 of King or Goolagong). At the Australian Open, well that is her baby so of course a great shot, but here too Goolagong was playing very well, and Evert not bad at all.

I would say 1 or 2 slams, leaning towards 2. Some combination of Wimbledon, U.S Open, Australian, but not sure which. Would not win the French again. Would give Evert a decent fight, way better than Morozova did, but fall short. Evert would be hungry for revenge after 73, and those 32 year old legs wouldn't be up to the task on that slow court anymore.
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It's not her fault the Aussie Open was considered a major by Budge in 1938 but not many were going there in the 1960s. Just like Martina said that everyone else could lift weights and train harder, so too could people travel once a year down under while poor Margaret would have to travel more than that to play in Paris, London and NY.

She still won a Grand Slam in 1970 beating a great Wimbledon champion at Wimbledon. She also won 3/4 in 1973 after having a child and returning to the tour. She beat the ultimate French queen in that Paris final as well. At the end of the day those two years of results alone should keep her satisfied that she was capable at multiple times of beating the best at their best.
 
Greatgatsby said:
It's not her fault the Aussie Open was considered a major by Budge in 1938 but not many were going there in the 1960s. Just like Martina said that everyone else could lift weights and train harder, so too could people travel once a year down under while poor Margaret would have to travel more than that to play in Paris, London and NY.

She still won a Grand Slam in 1970 beating a great Wimbledon champion at Wimbledon. She also won 3/4 in 1973 after having a child and returning to the tour. She beat the ultimate French queen in that Paris final as well. At the end of the day those two years of results alone should keep her satisfied that she was capable at multiple times of beating the best at their best.
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Evert wasn't at her best in 1973 on any surface except perhaps the one she grew up on -Green Har tru clay. Evert had never traveled to Europe before that 1973 season. Evert had never played either the Italian or the French before that season. Evert had never played on slow red clay before that season. Evert had never reached the final of a major before that French final. Court was actually the number one seed and favorite to win at RG, despite her losses to Evert on the green dirt prior. Evert was just too green. A year later, with more experience and less nerves, and it would have been a different story.
 
BTURNER said:
We know that Margaret Court won 3 of the four majors in 1973, did not play hardly at all in 1974, and that she never got to a single major final when she came back on the tour in 1975. How well do you think she would have done if she had played the 1974 season? Which majors would she have taken and from whom?

A quick review at the Aussie (2) Goolagong beat (3)Melville in one half, (1) Evert (4) Heldman and Goolagong took the prize
Leslie Hunt was the fifth seed and trust me there was nobody else there to cause any grief below that. Assuming Court is the top seed, she would be in the Goolagong half and I know Goolagong lost to her in '71 but had beaten her in the Aussie circuit even before that because she said so in an interview after the '71 win.

At RG (1) Evert beat (3) Mastoff in one half. Unseeded Morazova beat unseeded Giscafre in the other and Evert took the prize.
(5)Navratilova was beaten by Mastoff, and (2) Wade disappeared in R32. I don't know who was the fourth seed but my guess is that the site forgot to put that little 4 besides Melville who is seeded at the other majors and played here. Court would lead the field and play Evert for the second consecutive final . I don't see Helga as stopping her!

At Wimbledon Evert (2) beat (6) Melville in one half, while ( number eight seed) Morazova took down (5) Wade and Evert took the prize.
(1) King lost to Morazova and Melville beat (3) Goolagong. Casals at #4 lost in R16, and Navratilova (wasn't seeded) lost to Jausevic. If court was seeded one or two, we are looking at another semifinal meeting with Chris ( Evert beat her in 1973) and the King in a final.

At the OPen (1) King beat Heldman in one semifinal, (5) Goolagong beat (2) Evert in the other and King won the final
(4) Melville fell to Goolagong, (number eight seed) Hunt lost to Evert, (6) Casals lost to King, and (7) Wade lost in R32. Nobody is listed as the third seed, Nancy Richey lost to Heldman in the QF , who had just finished beating Navratilova the round before. Again she is likely to meet Evert in a semifinal, this is one Margaret took in 1973 on the way to the final. Does Court beat King and Evert back to back?

Which majors does Margaret take?

My gut says that Evert is ready to win her first major, and its going to be on dirt. I think Court wins her 12th Aussie, and her fourth Wimbledon, but King still wins at forest hills. Evert and Evonne lose a major each and Court ends up at 26 majors?
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Margaret sat out the 74 season because she was pregnant. While she made a fairly impressive return on the 1975 Virginia Slims circuit, scoring wins over everyone except BJK (who she didn't face) or Evert, she still came up short at Wimbledon and US Open.

1974 is one year earlier than 1975, of course, but age would still have been a factor for her in 1974. For those who claim Evert was "lucky" to win Wimbledon in 1974 or Evonne "unlucky" to win Forest Hills that year, 'luck' could also be a factor in Margaret's 1973 season. Was Court 'lucky' Evert choked their Roland Garros final? That BJK fell early at Forest Hills, or that she got to play Evonne, who she thoroughly dominated, in the other 2 major finals?
Tennis is an interesting sport. And the women have been a bit unpredictable. Serena was lucky and yet dominant in 2015, winning the first three majors. Yet goes down shockingly to Roberta Vinci at the US Open, and folds against Kerber in the Australian finals. Serena succumbed to age and nerves in the those matches. Perhaps more nerves than age. But as players get older, managing nerves usually becomes more problematic. Despite her large total of major titles, Margaret Court was known to succumb to nerves and fold in matches when there was big time pressure.

My speculation on her hypothetical 1974 playing season? She wins no majors. (Don't forget that 1974 was start of WTT season, and no WTA players competed in the French, not that she would have won that anyway.)
 
BTURNER said:
We know that Margaret Court won 3 of the four majors in 1973, did not play hardly at all in 1974, and that she never got to a single major final when she came back on the tour in 1975. How well do you think she would have done if she had played the 1974 season? Which majors would she have taken and from whom?

A quick review at the Aussie (2) Goolagong beat (3)Melville in one half, (1) Evert (4) Heldman and Goolagong took the prize
Leslie Hunt was the fifth seed and trust me there was nobody else there to cause any grief below that. Assuming Court is the top seed, she would be in the Goolagong half and I know Goolagong lost to her in '71 but had beaten her in the Aussie circuit even before that because she said so in an interview after the '71 win.

At RG (1) Evert beat (3) Mastoff in one half. Unseeded Morazova beat unseeded Giscafre in the other and Evert took the prize.
(5)Navratilova was beaten by Mastoff, and (2) Wade disappeared in R32. I don't know who was the fourth seed but my guess is that the site forgot to put that little 4 besides Melville who is seeded at the other majors and played here. Court would lead the field and play Evert for the second consecutive final . I don't see Helga as stopping her!

At Wimbledon Evert (2) beat (6) Melville in one half, while ( number eight seed) Morazova took down (5) Wade and Evert took the prize.
(1) King lost to Morazova and Melville beat (3) Goolagong. Casals at #4 lost in R16, and Navratilova (wasn't seeded) lost to Jausevic. If court was seeded one or two, we are looking at another semifinal meeting with Chris ( Evert beat her in 1973) and the King in a final.

At the OPen (1) King beat Heldman in one semifinal, (5) Goolagong beat (2) Evert in the other and King won the final
(4) Melville fell to Goolagong, (number eight seed) Hunt lost to Evert, (6) Casals lost to King, and (7) Wade lost in R32. Nobody is listed as the third seed, Nancy Richey lost to Heldman in the QF , who had just finished beating Navratilova the round before. Again she is likely to meet Evert in a semifinal, this is one Margaret took in 1973 on the way to the final. Does Court beat King and Evert back to back?

Which majors does Margaret take?

My gut says that Evert is ready to win her first major, and its going to be on dirt. I think Court wins her 12th Aussie, and her fourth Wimbledon, but King still wins at forest hills. Evert and Evonne lose a major each and Court ends up at 26 majors?
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NAH!
 
Who knows. She probably had a good shot at all 4 although she definitely doesn't win all 4. Australian Open I would favor her to win, even with Goolagong and Evert both playing. It seems she just can't lose there if she is in even decent shape, I honestly think she wins almost all 11 she won even if it had been fully attended (like atleast 9 of tehm).

The French her only competition would be Evert, but that would still be a big task. Especialy as Court is a year older (remember she is turning 32, back then that was old, and even one year at that age is a big difference) and Evert more mature than 73 when she nearly closed out Court in 2 sets but lost in 3.

Wimbledon with Goolagong and King in very weak form, she theoretically should win, but she would need to beat Evert who she did lose to at the 73 event so still not a gimme.

US Open she would have a big battle on as Goolgong, King, and Evert were all quite strong there. So this would not be easy at all for her to win.

I would guess she wins 2. The Australian almost for sure and 1 of the 3 others, probably Wimbledon or the US Open. But 3 of the 4 would be possible too.

I think she still hits a decline in 75, and possibly still wins 0 slams in 75. She would be stronger than she would coming back from over a year off at age 32/33, which is too old too be reinserting yourself successfullly after absences, but whether she is strong enough to win any slams in 75 even without the break is iffy at best.
 
martinezownsclay said:
Who knows. She probably had a good shot at all 4 although she definitely doesn't win all 4. Australian Open I would favor her to win, even with Goolagong and Evert both playing. It seems she just can't lose there if she is in even decent shape, I honestly think she wins almost all 11 she won even if it had been fully attended (like atleast 9 of tehm).

The French her only competition would be Evert, but that would still be a big task. Especialy as Court is a year older (remember she is turning 32, back then that was old, and even one year at that age is a big difference) and Evert more mature than 73 when she nearly closed out Court in 2 sets but lost in 3.

Wimbledon with Goolagong and King in very weak form, she theoretically should win, but she would need to beat Evert who she did lose to at the 73 event so still not a gimme.

US Open she would have a big battle on as Goolgong, King, and Evert were all quite strong there. So this would not be easy at all for her to win.

I would guess she wins 2. The Australian almost for sure and 1 of the 3 others, probably Wimbledon or the US Open. But 3 of the 4 would be possible too.

I think she still hits a decline in 75, and possibly still wins 0 slams in 75. She would be stronger than she would coming back from over a year off at age 32/33, which is too old too be reinserting yourself successfullly after absences, but whether she is strong enough to win any slams in 75 even without the break is iffy at best.
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I totally disagree. Chrissie was coming in to her own in 1974, and Evonne had an exceptional year, winning Oz and losing in the final of the US Open to Billie Jean. She did not play Roland Garros, nor did Billie Jean. They were both contracted to play World Team Tennis during that time period. Margaret's best chance at a Slam may well have been at Roland Garros, but she was known for losing to lesser players there, such as Gail Chanfreau, due to an inexplicable case of nerves. But Chrissie, after losing her nerve in the 1973 final, would have been extremely eager to avenge her final round loss in 1974. Evert would have again defeated Margaret at Wimbledon, being super confident after defeating Margaret in the semi-finals the previous year. The real test was the US Open. Everyone was playing well, but Billie Jean was the best of the best at that tournament. As for Oz, her 11 titles are extremely over-rated. Foreign players skipped the event because either they couldn't afford to travel down under for the Australian Open, the USLTA would not grant them permission to play in the event (for American players). or because they did not want to be away from their families during the Christmas season. Billie only played Oz three times when she could contend for the title (winning once, in 1968, over Margaret in the most one-sided match of their rivalry, 6/2,6/1). As a result, Court just had to sign on to play Oz to win it.
 
Verbal Volley said:
I totally disagree. Chrissie was coming in to her own in 1974, and Evonne had an exceptional year, winning Oz and losing in the final of the US Open to Billie Jean. She did not play Roland Garros, nor did Billie Jean. They were both contracted to play World Team Tennis during that time period. Margaret's best chance at a Slam may well have been at Roland Garros, but she was known for losing to lesser players there, such as Gail Chanfreau, due to an inexplicable case of nerves. But Chrissie, after losing her nerve in the 1973 final, would have been extremely eager to avenge her final round loss in 1974. Evert would have again defeated Margaret at Wimbledon, being super confident after defeating Margaret in the semi-finals the previous year. The real test was the US Open. Everyone was playing well, but Billie Jean was the best of the best at that tournament. As for Oz, her 11 titles are extremely over-rated. Foreign players skipped the event because either they couldn't afford to travel down under for the Australian Open, the USLTA would not grant them permission to play in the event (for American players). or because they did not want to be away from their families during the Christmas season. Billie only played Oz three times when she could contend for the title (winning once, in 1968, over Margaret in the most one-sided match of their rivalry, 6/2,6/1). As a result, Court just had to sign on to play Oz to win it.
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Court has a 22-10 lifetime head to head with King. With home country advantage, and grass that plays something closer to a hard court than Wimbledon, she would be the HUGE favorite over King there, no matter what the arrogant King will tell you. The main reason King didn't bother playing was she knew she would lose to Court almost everytime given the conditions and Court's home country advantage, so why bother, just don't play and then tell my fans I would have won it most years I played if I had.

As for 74, Goolagong has never in her career beaten Court at the Australian Open so I highly doubt she does it again in 74. Also just because Evert beat Court at Wimbledon in 73 does not mean she does it again in 74. You neglect to mention that was her only win over Court in 5 meetings in 73, including 3 slam meetings. And Court would also be motivated to avenge the loss of the previous year, just as Evert at RG would be, and motivated by a relatively easy draw to the title, having to beat neither King or Goolagong, her two toughest opponents on fast grass.
 
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kiki said:
Court would hve certainly added another slam title to her account in 74.

The big 4 could beat each other at any given moment...
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Court found out she was pregnant before the 71 Wimbledon final, so was off the tour for the rest of 71 and part of 72. I thnk she was off tour for most, if not all of 74, due to pregnancy and she was 35 with 2 children in 75 so not at her near best. Evert and King had abortions to continue playing in their prime, Court did not, choosing to give life rather than winning tennis trophies.
 
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martinezownsclay said:
Court has a 22-10 lifetime head to head with King. With home country advantage, and grass that plays something closer to a hard court than Wimbledon, she would be the HUGE favorite over King there, no matter what the arrogant King will tell you. The main reason King didn't bother playing was she knew she would lose to Court almost everytime given the conditions and Court's home country advantage, so why bother, just don't play and then tell my fans I would have won it most years I played if I had.

As for 74, Goolagong has never in her career beaten Court at the Australian Open so I highly doubt she does it again in 74. Also just because Evert beat Court at Wimbledon in 73 does not mean she does it again in 74. You neglect to mention that was her only win over Court in 5 meetings in 73, including 3 slam meetings. And Court would also be motivated to avenge the loss of the previous year, just as Evert at RG would be, andE motivated by a relatively easy draw to the title, having to beat neither King or Goolagong, her two toughest opponents on fast grass.
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EXCELLENT POST!
 
thrust said:
Court found out she was pregnant before the 71 Wimbledon final, so was off the tour for the rest of 71 and part of 72. I thnk she was off tour for most, if not all of 74, due to pregnancy and she was 35 with 2 children in 75 so not at her near best. Evert and King had abortions to continue playing in their prime, Court did not, choosing to give life rather than winning tennis trophies.
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Your life must be very easy given how you dismiss the life choices others make.
And simplistic.
And judgemental.
Oh to be so worthy.
 
Court wins no slams in 1974. She was too busy having a kid in 1974. Had she not gotten pregnant, then I think that she wins 2 slam titles.

That said, how many biological mothers have won a slam title? That has to be incredibly rare.

We know that Clijsters won a couple of them. Court won 3. Who else did it?
 
Pheasant said:
Court wins no slams in 1974. She was too busy having a kid in 1974. Had she not gotten pregnant, then I think that she wins 2 slam titles.

That said, how many biological mothers have won a slam title? That has to be incrediblyI rare.

We know that Clijsters won a couple of them. Court won 3. Who else did it?
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Goolagong?
 
Pheasant said:
Court wins no slams in 1974. She was too busy having a kid in 1974. Had she not gotten pregnant, then I think that she wins 2 slam titles.

That said, how many biological mothers have won a slam title? That has to be incredibly rare.

We know that Clijsters won a couple of them. Court won 3. Who else did it?
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Goolagong, no?
 
BTURNER said:
Which one do you consider most likely? Beating Goolagong at the Aussie, Evert at RG, Evert at Wimbledon or King at the Open?
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Goolagong at the Aussie, King at the USO. Had Court not been pregnant part of 71-72, she most likely would have won another 2 slams or more.
 
Pheasant said:
Yep. Goolagong. Another fan of 1970s tennis pointed that out to me too.

So we've got Court, Goolagong, and Clijsters. This has got to be it. Nobody else has pointed out any others.
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Kim was a few years, or so, younger than Court and Goolagong when she had her first child. I think Court was 30 when she had her first, Kim 25-26?
 
thrust said:
Kim was a few years, or so, younger than Court and Goolagong when she had her first child. I think Court was 30 when she had her first, Kim 25-26?
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Clijsters was 26-27 years old when she bagged her 3 titles.

Court was 30-31 years old for her 3 titles.

Goolagong was 29(less than a month shy of 30) when she won her 1 slam title as a biological mother.
 
thrust said:
Just stating the facts, like them or not. IMO, there is no moral justification for a rich woman to have an abortion in order to win tennis tournaments. For poor women, girls, rape, incest-YES. People trash Court for her religious beliefs concerning homosexual lifestyle., but at least she did not kill her unborn children in order to win tennis tournaments.
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State what you like, but you are just stating your opinion, not the "facts." Perhaps, look up what a fact is.
 
BTURNER said:
Evert wasn't at her best in 1973 on any surface except perhaps the one she grew up on -Green Har tru clay. Evert had never traveled to Europe before that 1973 season. Evert had never played either the Italian or the French before that season. Evert had never played on slow red clay before that season. Evert had never reached the final of a major before that French final. Court was actually the number one seed and favorite to win at RG, despite her losses to Evert on the green dirt prior. Evert was just too green. A year later, with more experience and less nerves, and it would have been a different story.
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Possibly so, but IMO, no other woman was going to beat Evert in that 73 FO final.
 
thrust said:
Possibly so, but IMO, no other woman was going to beat Evert in that 73 FO final.
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Maybe Evonne, who was the woman who straight setted Evert at the Italian about a week later. Compare this score on June 1:
F lost to Margaret Court [1] 6-7 (5), 7-6 (6), 6-4 To this score on June 10th: F lost to Evonne Goolagong 7-6 (4), 6-0 but that last set suggests exhaustion. Its possible that had these match-ups been reversed and Evonne playing her at RG first , it would be Margaret getting the benefit of that exhaustion from the european tour, and she might have had a 6-0 set.

That was Evert's last loss until May 12 1979, 125 matches later.
 
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BTURNER said:
Maybe Evonne, who was the woman who straight setted Evert at the Italian about a week later. Compare this score on June 1:
F lost to Margaret Court [1] 6-7 (5), 7-6 (6), 6-4 To this score on June 10th: F lost to Evonne Goolagong 7-6 (4), 6-0

That was Evert's last loss until May 12 1979, 125 matches later.
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Considering the scoreline in the Italian final the week after the FO, makes me think that Chris was really not into the match or had some sort of physical problem. I believe the second set score in Rome was 6-0 in favor of Evonne? For Evert to lose a set, 6-0, on any sort of clay to any other woman is almost impossible unless something was wrong with Chris. Personally, I am glad Evonne won in Rome, but I doubt Chris anywhere near her best, that day.
 
thrust said:
Considering the scoreline in the Italian final the week after the FO, makes me think that Chris was really not into the match or had some sort of physical problem. I believe the second set score in Rome was 6-0 in favor of Evonne? For Evert to lose a set, 6-0, on any sort of clay to any other woman is almost impossible unless something was wrong with Chris. Personally, I am glad Evonne won in Rome, but I doubt Chris anywhere near her best, that day.
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Clearly not, but I have not read about an injury, and the first set was as close as any set can be.... I figured exhaustion but its only a guess. odd.
 
Xavier G said:
Margaret Court didn't play much for most of 1972 either. She could well have added a GS title or two that year as well, considering what she did in 73 and with the grass courts prevalent then. I don't know about 1974, but in retrospect it's possible Court may have won a Major. Chrissie made her breakthrough in the summer of 1974, but she was beaten a few times by Evonne Goolagong across the year including at the AO early in the year and at the USO. She posed Evert a lot of problems back then on turf and faster surfaces. Chris didn't have to play Evonne in Paris or Wimbledon, where Evonne lost in an earlier round to Melville. The French Open field doesn't look that strong now with no Court ( who would have been defending champion), no Goolagong (WTT) who was a former champion in 71, and a 17 year old Navratilova who was pre-prime and took later to get her act together. It's possible 31/32 year old Margaret could have won a Major in 74, I suppose.
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In 1974, ALL of the top women played World Team Tennis. The schedule for WTT was quite grueling, so many women entered Wimbledon exhausted. Chrissie was lucky in that respect, because it enabled her to win at Roland Garros and at Wimbledon (for different reasons), perhaps before her time to do so. In tournaments where the WTT players participated, Evert's record was not as stellar. She was 1-2 against King and 2-4 against Goolagong. She easily beat the best of the rest, but the top players still had her number at that time.
 
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Verbal Volley said:
In 1974, ALL of the top women played World Team Tennis. The schedule for WTT was quite grueling, so many women entered Wimbledon exhausted. Chrissie was lucky in that respect, because it enabled her to win at Roland Garros and at Wimbledon (for different reasons), perhaps before her time to do so. In tournaments where the WTT players participated, Evert's record was not as stellar. She was 1-2 against King and 2-4 against Goolagong. She easily beat the best of the rest, but the top players still had her number at that time.
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Didn't Evert beat Court at Wimbledon in 1973?
 
PDJ said:
Didn't Evert beat Court at Wimbledon in 1973?
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Chrissie was 1-3 against Margaret in 1973, winning at Wimbledon but losing at the US Open, Roland Garros and Hilton Head (World Invitational Tennis Classic). Margaret always played her worst GS tennis at Wimbledon (severe and inexplicable nerves), but Chrissie seemed to always play her best tennis against Margaret. Unlike Billie Jean King, Margaret could never "read" where Evert was going to hit her shots. Chrissie had Margaret's number. I think that this was the only year that Margaret had a winning record against Chrissie. Chrissie won their last five consecutive meetings, while Court was still playing excellent tennis.
 
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Verbal Volley said:
Chrissie was 1-3 against Margaret in 1973, winning at Wimbledon but losing at the US Open, Roland Garros and Hilton Head (World Invitational Tennis Classic). Margaret always played her worst GS tennis at Wimbledon (severe and inexplicable nerves), but Chrissie seemed to always play her best tennis against Margaret. Unlike Billie Jean King, Margaret could never "read" where Evert was going to hit her shots. Chrissie had Margaret's number. I think that this was the only year that Margaret had a winning record against Chrissie. Chrissie won their last five consecutive meetings, while Court was still playing excellent tennis.
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I agree. Chrissie absolutely had Margaret’s number. She was not ready yet in 1973 for grand slam wins, felt the pressure and lost at the French and US opens to Margaret. In both these matches, there were periods when she was really dictating the play but could not sustain it in the pressure moments.
 
Verbal Volley said:
Chrissie was 1-3 against Margaret in 1973, winning at Wimbledon but losing at the US Open, Roland Garros and Hilton Head (World Invitational Tennis Classic). Margaret always played her worst GS tennis at Wimbledon (severe and inexplicable nerves), but Chrissie seemed to always play her best tennis against Margaret. Unlike Billie Jean King, Margaret could never "read" where Evert was going to hit her shots. Chrissie had Margaret's number. I think that this was the only year that Margaret had a winning record against Chrissie. Chrissie won their last five consecutive meetings, while Court was still playing excellent tennis.
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davidjaan1982 said:
I agree. Chrissie absolutely had Margaret’s number. She was not ready yet in 1973 for grand slam wins, felt the pressure and lost at the French and US opens to Margaret. In both these matches, there were periods when she was really dictating the play but could not sustain it in the pressure moments.
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Not only could Margaret not read Chrissie, bit Chrissie in turn found Margaret predictable and read her well. It was a double whammy for Margaret against Chris.
 
Rochester said:
State what you like, but you are just stating your opinion, not the "facts." Perhaps, look up what a fact is.
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BJK's abortion was made public by her husband, which she did not even know that he was going to do. But, few people realize that Chrissie had an abortion when she was dating Jimmy Connors. She was very angry at him for revealing this fact in his autobiography.
 
I have never read that BJK's husband revealed her abortion which Connors certainly did to Evert. King heaped praise on her ex-husband in her autobiography.
 
Rochester said:
I have never read that BJK's husband revealed her abortion which Connors certainly did to Evert. King heaped praise on her ex-husband in her autobiography.
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It is in her autobiography, as well as some of her personal interviews. He OK'd having her name put on a list of "I've Had An Abortion" advertisement that appeared in most major magazines and newspapers. He did not seek her consent, just as Connor's didn't seek her approval when he betrayed Chrissie. Billie Jean still loves her ex-husband (and vice versa), and she is the godmother to his two children.
 
davidjaan1982 said:
Not only could Margaret not read Chrissie, bit Chrissie in turn found Margaret predictable and read her well. It was a double whammy for Margaret against Chris.
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If you think about it, its pretty impressive that young two handed Evert could blunt that power game and huge serve of Margaret's, with less reach than the other women could with five inches more reach. They are the ones with that one handed chip or bundt return low at Margarets feet, cutting off the angles. Evert had to read it sooner and react quicker. But when she did, her two hands had more stability, and she could redirect the racket face at the last possible second.

If Margaret had stayed a left hander, like Martina did, rather than being 'retrained' as a child right hander, can you imagine what that 'lefty' hook serve would have added to her already overwhelming oppressive arsonal
 
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DMan said:
Margaret sat out the 74 season because she was pregnant. While she made a fairly impressive return on the 1975 Virginia Slims circuit, scoring wins over everyone except BJK (who she didn't face) or Evert, she still came up short at Wimbledon and US Open.

1974 is one year earlier than 1975, of course, but age would still have been a factor for her in 1974. For those who claim Evert was "lucky" to win Wimbledon in 1974 or Evonne "unlucky" to win Forest Hills that year, 'luck' could also be a factor in Margaret's 1973 season. Was Court 'lucky' Evert choked their Roland Garros final? That BJK fell early at Forest Hills, or that she got to play Evonne, who she thoroughly dominated, in the other 2 major finals?
Tennis is an interesting sport. And the women have been a bit unpredictable. Serena was lucky and yet dominant in 2015, winning the first three majors. Yet goes down shockingly to Roberta Vinci at the US Open, and folds against Kerber in the Australian finals. Serena succumbed to age and nerves in the those matches. Perhaps more nerves than age. But as players get older, managing nerves usually becomes more problematic. Despite her large total of major titles, Margaret Court was known to succumb to nerves and fold in matches when there was big time pressure.

My speculation on her hypothetical 1974 playing season? She wins no majors. (Don't forget that 1974 was start of WTT season, and no WTA players competed in the French, not that she would have won that anyway.)
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In 1975 Court was a 32-33 year old mother of two, so hardly at her physical best and having to take care of her two children. Evert was considerably younger and neither she or King had kids to take care of. Had Court not been pregnant and given birth in 74, chances are he would have won a slam in 74, IMO. Online yesterday, some group, ranked the greatest players of all time and much to my surprise, Court was ranked #1, Novak-2, Serena-3.
 
BTURNER said:
We know that Margaret Court won 3 of the four majors in 1973, did not play hardly at all in 1974, and that she never got to a single major final when she came back on the tour in 1975. How well do you think she would have done if she had played the 1974 season? Which majors would she have taken and from whom?

A quick review at the Aussie (2) Goolagong beat (3)Melville in one half, (1) Evert (4) Heldman and Goolagong took the prize
Leslie Hunt was the fifth seed and trust me there was nobody else there to cause any grief below that. Assuming Court is the top seed, she would be in the Goolagong half and I know Goolagong lost to her in '71 but had beaten her in the Aussie circuit even before that because she said so in an interview after the '71 win.

At RG (1) Evert beat (3) Mastoff in one half. Unseeded Morazova beat unseeded Giscafre in the other and Evert took the prize.
(5)Navratilova was beaten by Mastoff, and (2) Wade disappeared in R32. I don't know who was the fourth seed but my guess is that the site forgot to put that little 4 besides Melville who is seeded at the other majors and played here. Court would lead the field and play Evert for the second consecutive final . I don't see Helga as stopping her!

At Wimbledon Evert (2) beat (6) Melville in one half, while ( number eight seed) Morazova took down (5) Wade and Evert took the prize.
(1) King lost to Morazova and Melville beat (3) Goolagong. Casals at #4 lost in R16, and Navratilova (wasn't seeded) lost to Jausevic. If court was seeded one or two, we are looking at another semifinal meeting with Chris ( Evert beat her in 1973) and the King in a final.

At the OPen (1) King beat Heldman in one semifinal, (5) Goolagong beat (2) Evert in the other and King won the final
(4) Melville fell to Goolagong, (number eight seed) Hunt lost to Evert, (6) Casals lost to King, and (7) Wade lost in R32. Nobody is listed as the third seed, Nancy Richey lost to Heldman in the QF , who had just finished beating Navratilova the round before. Again she is likely to meet Evert in a semifinal, this is one Margaret took in 1973 on the way to the final. Does Court beat King and Evert back to back?

Which majors does Margaret take?

My gut says that Evert is ready to win her first major, and its going to be on dirt. I think Court wins her 12th Aussie, and her fourth Wimbledon, but King still wins at forest hills. Evert and Evonne lose a major each and Court ends up at 26 majors?
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what is all this “one half” about, v confusing
 
BTURNER said:
If you think about it, its pretty impressive that young two handed Evert could blunt that power game and huge serve of Margaret's, with less reach than the other women could with five inches more reach. They are the ones with that one handed chip or bundt return low at Margarets feet, cutting off the angles. Evert had to read it sooner and react quicker. But when she did, her two hands had more stability, and she could redirect the racket face at the last possible second.

If Margaret had stayed a left hander, like Martina did, rather than being 'retrained' as a child right hander, can you imagine what that 'lefty' hook serve would have added to her already overwhelming oppressive arsonal
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Yes, it was very impressive. I found their rivalry in the early 1970’s fascinating. I loved Evert’s lobs in particular. That was the shot that probably brought Margaret to her knees.
 
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davidjaan1982 said:
Yes, it was very impressive. I found their rivalry in the early 1970’s fascinating. I loved Evert’s lobs in particular. That was the shot that probably brought Margaret to her knees.
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You obviously watched that 1973 Wimbledon semifinal. I understand that lob was lethal. Its hard to explain why Margaret had so much more trouble than King or even Wade did. Margaret had a wonderful overhead and she certainly was willing to run them down. She was very secure up top, and had more upper body and arm/wrist strength to handle backhand/awkward overheads. The answer I always come back to was yes, of course Evert's lobs were wonderful, but Margaret had one heck of a time reading them, just as she did those passing shots and returns. Everything Chris did was well disguised but I think Margaret was particularly baffled at least in those early years (70-72) In 1973 she was actually approaching parity in the head to head so she was figuring some things out.
 
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BTURNER said:
You obviously watched that 1973 Wimbledon semifinal. I understand that lob was lethal. Its hard to explain why Margaret had so much more trouble than King or even Wade did. Margaret had a wonderful overhead and she certainly was willing to run them down. She was very secure up top, and had more upper body and arm/wrist strength to handle backhand/awkward overheads. The answer I always come back to was yes, of course Evert's lobs were wonderful, but Margaret had one heck of a time reading them, just as she did those passing shots and returns. Everything Chris did was well disguised but I think Margaret was particularly baffled at least in those early years (70-72) In 1973 she was actually approaching parity in the head to head so she was figuring some things out.
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But then, Court beat Evert in the semis of the USO. She then beat Goolagong in the exciting final, which I saw live. Court was a 31 year old mother in 73, winning 3 of the 4 slams that year. Too bad they were not closer in age as that would have been a fascinating rivalry, on all surfaces.
 
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