I beat the guy 60 60 and he called me "a pusher!"

[dyldore]

In my opinion, the beauty of the game is the point construction and if you are a good player, you should be able to construct enough points to beat a pusher. If not then you aren't as good of player as you thought

If you are the kind of player who would go for a winner at the first opportunity, I think a match against a very consistent player would be more interesting than match against another player who also plays first strike tennis. That matchup would produce a match with no rally and no point construction whatsoever.

That's why the courts are so much slower than they were in the early 90s .

 

[heninfan99]

Interesting Mick. For me the beauty of the game is in Edberg's backhand. When I saw the beauty of that stroke I became a tennis fan instantly.
First strike/James Blake-style tennis is also not my cup of tea.

Nowadays I push myself sometimes but only if I'm bored with the match I'm in and don't want to play my A game.

If you are the kind of player who would go for a winner at the first opportunity, I think a match against a very consistent player would be more interesting than match against another player who also plays first strike tennis. That matchup would produce a match with no rally and no point construction whatsoever.

I'm okay, Mick. Perhaps you're a secret Grand Slam Champion that has never lost to a pusher in your life?

If not then you aren't as good of player as you thought

 

[OrangePower]

In my opinion, the beauty of the game is the point construction and if you are a good player, you should be able to construct enough points to beat a pusher. If not then you aren't as good of player as you thought

If you are the kind of player who would go for a winner at the first opportunity, I think a match against a very consistent player would be more interesting than match against another player who also plays first strike tennis. That matchup would produce a match with no rally and no point construction whatsoever.

Good observation. I am an aggressive 4.5 player; I can't say that I see that many pushers (as in, not try do anything beyond get every ball back), but I do see a lot of players whos primary strategy is consistency. And those produce better matches for me than when I'm playing another very aggressive player, for the reasons you point out.

In fact, I'd rather play a consistent player (regardless of outcome - I lose my fair share to them), since I then feel I am in control most of the time, even if I end up losing via too many errors. On the other hand, when I play another very aggressive player and get put mostly on the defensive, that's a strange feeling for me since it happens only rarely.

 

[LeeD]

If you push to win, you pushed, and are a pusher in the eyes of your opponent.
Nothing wrong with pushing, but that's your strategy, plain and simple.

 

[Mick]

I'm okay, Mick. Perhaps you're a secret Grand Slam Champion that has never lost to a pusher in your life?

Nope.
I can honestly say, I have never lost a match to someone who plays 100% defensive tennis -- not to say that I am that good of a player but it hasn't happened yet

The guys I have lost to aren't pushers. They are consistent players who can hit winners, such as the OP Gonzalito.

 

[LeeD]

Could that be true because of your experiences?
I know at least 3 different 4.5's who hit softly, DO hit from side to side but don't go for winners. One is an event organizer, one a limited physical specimen, and the other just chooses to make his opponent's work.
Even if you stopped running for a ball, they would hit softly back near you, teasing you to run farther and more often...all three of them.

 

[Mick]

Could that be true because of your experiences?
I know at least 3 different 4.5's who hit softly, DO hit from side to side but don't go for winners. One is an event organizer, one a limited physical specimen, and the other just chooses to make his opponent's work.
Even if you stopped running for a ball, they would hit softly back near you, teasing you to run farther and more often...all three of them.

sure. I am sure I could lose to someone who plays 100% defensive tennis. There are so many talented players out there, I just haven't met them yet. If it does happen, he will become my idol because it's so difficult to win matches playing like that

 

[LeeD]

I thought it was fairly easy physically, but hard mentally, to win by pushing, or hitting softer than you know you can.
I can bunt the ball back all day, but tire mentally. I can hit hard, almost 5.0 levels, but tire physically. Which is harder? Well, BOTH, for me.

 

[Mick]

imo, if you push the entire match you intentionally handicap yourself. If the other player is a decent player, he/she should be able to produce shots that will break down that game.

I don't think Novak Djokovic/Andy Murray/Roger Federer could win a match against Serena Williams if they handicap themselves and push 100% the time.

So, I am in the minority, I admire pushers who can beat decent players because they do it without using any weapon and that is tougher than overpowering your opponent with all your weapons.

 

[heninfan99]

Then Mick you're the first player in history that's never experienced a loss to a pusher. Congrats.

Nope.
I can honestly say, I have never lost a match to someone who plays 100% defensive tennis -- not to say that I am that good of a player but it hasn't happened yet

The guys I have lost to aren't pushers. They are consistent players who can hit winners, such as the OP Gonzalito.

 

[Mick]

Then Mick you're the first player in history that's never experienced a loss to a pusher. Congrats.

there's a guy that plays at the park where i play. His biggest weapons are the moonball and his consistency.
well, he has played me many times, so he knows my game.

Nowadays, whenever he plays me, he would go for broke right on the first hit, even in practice :shock:

 

[Relinquis]

I think the key here is to not sacrifice smooth form for harder hitting.

Basically hit as hard as you can while maintaining relaxed arm and balance.

Very true. Without this, you cannot start constructing points and opening the court up for a winner.

 

[chatt_town]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how it gets done. The point is the person that won won and the person that lost lost. In the lady that Serena played, I'd probably play the same way. I think Soderling had the same approach with Nadal at the French and that's how he beat him. Had he got into this ground game that Nadal likes to play he would have been off the court in 3 sets. So it's about know what you have and what the other player has versus just going out and playing one style. If you don't have variety you will get your butt handed to you more than you probably would if you had some variety.

Peace,

Chatt_town

i disagree.
in the game of tennis, whoever wins the last point wins. It doesn't matter how he/she did it.

this summer, Serena Williams played Sorana Cirstea at Stanford University.
Cirstea knew she was no match for Serena so she went for a winner on every stroke. Realizing what was happening, Serena just returned the balls back deep and waited for Cirstea to make the errors (Serena disclosed this in the post match interview). Serena won 6-1, 6-2

If we go by your view, Serena didn't beat Cirstea, Cirstea missed until she lost :shock:

 

[mikeler]

I happily pushed my way to a victory tonight. My opponent likes pace and I had no intention of giving him any. If I come up against a more defensive player who is better at it than me, then I'll switch it up and turn into a net rusher. Tennis is all about using your skills and knowing which ones to apply against each opponent.

 

[Gonzalito17]

To the OP, this has happened to me also when beating an opponent a long time ago. I just played 2 or 3 rally shots before really attacking, but the problem was that my opponent would always make UEs before I could hit a winner. He didn't call me pusher, but he said I had a really defensive style. Huh? If you can't even handle a rally ball and you UE before I can hit any winners, how do you know my playing style? A well played point often begins aften the second exchange...

Sounds like your opponent was a level or two below you. And he couldn't even realize your simple tactic. Those kinds of matches could be very boring.

 

[Gonzalito17]

I happily pushed my way to a victory tonight. My opponent likes pace and I had no intention of giving him any. If I come up against a more defensive player who is better at it than me, then I'll switch it up and turn into a net rusher. Tennis is all about using your skills and knowing which ones to apply against each opponent.

Totally agree with that last sentence Mikeler. You sound like a smart player. Tennis is a thinking game, like chess. It's not about being a mindless predictable ball machine and just drilling the ball over the net like a lot of player seem to play.

 

[Gonzalito17]

A good article with insight from Jack Kramer on defensive play (aka "pushing" to many here).


Revisiting the Wisdom of Mr. Jack Kramer

Excellent read SP thanks for posting. Always a pleasure and privilege to read the wisdom of the masters like Jack Kramer. Like the line, "learned to attack before they learned how to defend." Totally agree that a defensive foundation is the key to winning in tennis, as Jack Kramer believes. I did not know Jack was a defensive player in his youth, it makes sense. Be nice to hear Sampras talk about the finer points of tennis tactics someday.

 

[Gonzalito17]

Anton, looking forward to tomorrow, see you at 6: 30.

Like the Guns & Roses song says, cue up, "...welcome to the jungle!" Just kidding. We'll have some fun, weather should be okay, hopefully no wind.

BTW it's the New Overpeck, not the old one. I think you get off on Challenger Rd.

 

[storypeddler]

Could that be true because of your experiences?
I know at least 3 different 4.5's who hit softly, DO hit from side to side but don't go for winners. One is an event organizer, one a limited physical specimen, and the other just chooses to make his opponent's work.
Even if you stopped running for a ball, they would hit softly back near you, teasing you to run farther and more often...all three of them.

LOL. Those guys are my heroes. I admit it is a bit twisted, but I get a special kind of pleasure from watching an opponent running himself to death---left and right and farther left and farther right. Often, even if he wins the point somehow, he is gassed for the next two and loses both. LOL.

 

[storypeddler]

imo, if you push the entire match you intentionally handicap yourself. If the other player is a decent player, he/she should be able to produce shots that will break down that game.

I don't think Novak Djokovic/Andy Murray/Roger Federer could win a match against Serena Williams if they handicap themselves and push 100% the time.

So, I am in the minority, I admire pushers who can beat decent players because they do it without using any weapon and that is tougher than overpowering your opponent with all your weapons.

I agree, Mick---except that I believe consistency at a high level IS a weapon. Battles have been won by laying seige to a castle and starving the enemy out as well as by confronting him head-on in the field.

 

[storypeddler]

I happily pushed my way to a victory tonight. My opponent likes pace and I had no intention of giving him any. If I come up against a more defensive player who is better at it than me, then I'll switch it up and turn into a net rusher. Tennis is all about using your skills and knowing which ones to apply against each opponent.

EXACTLY!!!

 

[Anton]

For this evening: Chance of Rain:100% Wind: ESE at 26 mph

Gonz want to come to SI instead? I'll see if I can get a court inside.

 

[Gonzalito17]

no rain in the forecast here in NJ anton. winds only at 5-10 for tonight, should be just about perfect.

 

[Anton]

no rain in the forecast here in NJ anton. winds only at 5-10 for tonight, should be just about perfect.

Checked out the hourly details looks like it should hold up until 8pm and then change quickly.

Can you make it by 6pm?

 

[Gonzalito17]

ok thanks.

 

[chatt_town]

Is this going to be carried on the Tennis Channel? I haven't seen it on the schedule.

Anton, looking forward to tomorrow, see you at 6: 30.

Like the Guns & Roses song says, cue up, "...welcome to the jungle!" Just kidding. We'll have some fun, weather should be okay, hopefully no wind.

BTW it's the New Overpeck, not the old one. I think you get off on Challenger Rd.

 

[heninfan99]

The time for talk is over. The gladiators prepare to prepare. And then prepare some more. Lacing up their sneakers, liquids are carefully chosen as they harden themselves for battle. They load up their cars with their favorite vanquishing gear and drive off into a winter's evening for a moment of glory and the pure love of sport. I can only envy having such a night and the quest that lays before you.

May the tennis Gods assure you safe passage & may the best man or pusher win!

 

[arche3]

Its f n freezing in nj right now. Seriously the balls wont bounce outside tonight.

 

[chatt_town]

I guess I'm spoiled. I won't play outside in 45 degree weather unless it's league play. I guess having access to indoor facilities late at night is what causes me to be this way. <sigh>

Its f n freezing in nj right now. Seriously the balls wont bounce outside tonight.

 

[Mick]

I guess I'm spoiled. I won't play outside in 45 degree weather unless it's league play. I guess having access to indoor facilities late at night is what causes me to be this way. <sigh>

Me neither. These two guys are hardcore :shock:

 

[Anton]

Just checking weather update and looks like I have to pull the plug on this

6pm 20% rain
7pm 40%
8pm 65%

I'd feel really stupid if we can't play after I drove out for an hour.

 

[Anton]

Me neither. These two guys are hardcore :shock:

Nuh, so long as it's over 35, and most importantly not windy, it's not that bad.

 

[Anton]

Courts available at College of Staten Island if you are interested.

6-7pm and 9-11pm

I'd cover it if you want to come down.

 

[Gonzalito17]

Well it did rain. Got there at 5:30, got a doubles set then realized Anton wasn't coming, then we played king of the court till a light rain started at exactly 7:37. Maybe next time Anton. You made the right call to not drive an hour with the rain risk.

 

[Gonzalito17]

Low 40s is not hardcore at all, I know someone who played in 16 degrees. Four of the six courts were being used tonight. Earlier this month courts were totally wet but we still hit singles on wet puddled courts and four others played doubles for two hours on them, that's hardcore.

 

[Relinquis]

I wouldn't play on a wet court. Not worth twisting an ankle. Even pros don't do that.

 

[Gonzalito17]

You're right, it doesn't make sense to risk hurting a knee or ankle, and be sidelines on crutches for six months. But i guess our tennis addiction is so strong now that we just started hitting and discovered the court was playable. It's a slow hard court surface and it wasn't actually slippery if you can believe that. Of course no runnnig out wide. But we were able to hit singles for like two hours, and also play doubles. Sounds crazy but hey we got to play. I guess we have a special group.

 

[Anton]

I don't mind playing on the wet courts, good balance keeping exercise.

Problem is the balls get crazy heavy if it's standing water.

 

[TomT]

You're right, it doesn't make sense to risk hurting a knee or ankle, and be sidelines on crutches for six months. But i guess our tennis addiction is so strong now that we just started hitting and discovered the court was playable. It's a slow hard court surface and it wasn't actually slippery if you can believe that. Of course no runnnig out wide. But we were able to hit singles for like two hours, and also play doubles. Sounds crazy but hey we got to play. I guess we have a special group.

I don't mind playing on the wet courts, good balance keeping exercise.

Problem is the balls get crazy heavy if it's standing water.

You guys should move to Fort Lauderdale. Or at least visit during the winter. It's absolutely beautiful tennis weather down here during the winter. And please do email me if you get down here. I would love to hit with you.

 

[Anton]

You guys should move to Fort Lauderdale. Or at least visit during the winter. It's absolutely beautiful tennis weather down here during the winter. And please do email me if you get down here. I would love to hit with you.

I have some friends out there, I'll keep your offer in mind when I'll visit

 

[bluegrasser]

Maybe it's just me, but to go out and totally destroy an inferior player, that sounds like an ego trip to me. If it were me, I'd just work on weaknesses in my game, say serve & volley some if I'm a baseliner. I guess as humans we all have our own take.

 

[Gonzalito17]

You guys should move to Fort Lauderdale. Or at least visit during the winter. It's absolutely beautiful tennis weather down here during the winter. And please do email me if you get down here. I would love to hit with you.

Will check it out in Jan Feb, hard courts in Hardy park? I'll look for you Tom T.

 

[Gonzalito17]

Maybe it's just me, but to go out and totally destroy an inferior player, that sounds like an ego trip to me. If it were me, I'd just work on weaknesses in my game, say serve & volley some if I'm a baseliner. I guess as humans we all have our own take.

You can never underestimate any player at any time. One great shot can turn a match around. The first time you play a match with a new player, who challenges you, you should try to do the best you can. Then after it's determined he's inferior and a fair guy, then you can work on your game the next times you play while also making suggestions to the opponent to help him. My way of playing, to each his own.

 

[Mick]

Maybe it's just me, but to go out and totally destroy an inferior player, that sounds like an ego trip to me. If it were me, I'd just work on weaknesses in my game, say serve & volley some if I'm a baseliner. I guess as humans we all have our own take.

that guy got it coming, from his response/behavior after losing.
I once played another guy who came to the courts to show everyone there how to play proper tennis. He criticized everyone's techniques even though they all were much better players. He coached his young son but he thought he could coach other players too. I set out to bagel this guy from the start.

 

[heninfan99]

Let's not project every annoying player onto the guy that fell to Gonzalito's C game. Gonzalito admitted he used his C game to crush the guy. It's perfectly okay to call pushing what it is. It's a legit tactic so you can take it as a compliment even.

If I win a set at 1 or 0 I do everything I can to avoid playing another set but sometimes you have to. Once I even faked an injury to get out of it. It's soooo boring I'd rather have the guy think I got lucky. Doesn't happen too much but when it does it's not fun or enjoyable even if I'm working on some new stroke or strategy.

that guy got it coming, from his response/behavior after losing.
I once played another guy who came to the courts to show everyone there how to play proper tennis. He criticized everyone's techniques even though they all were much better players. He coached his young son but he thought he could coach other players too. I set out to bagel this guy from the start.

 

[Mick]

Let's not project every annoying player onto the guy that fell to Gonzalito's C game. Gonzalito admitted he used his C game to crush the guy. It's perfectly okay to call pushing what it is. It's a legit tactic so you can take it as a compliment even.

If I win a set at 1 or 0 I do everything I can to avoid playing another set but sometimes you have to. Once I even faked an injury to get out of it. It's soooo boring I'd rather have the guy think I got lucky. Doesn't happen too much but when it does it's not fun or enjoyable even if I'm working on some new stroke or strategy.

There's a video of Sharapova playing a 2.0 player on youtube. She pushed too.
I think everybody would push if they had to play players way below their levels.
However, Gonzalito's opponent called him a pusher even though he's way below Gonzalito's level, just to put him down.

 

[TomT]

I have some friends out there, I'll keep your offer in mind when I'll visit

Great. Just send me an advance email and I'll give you my telephone number. I'll furnish the new balls, the sport drink, the bananas, and the court.

 

[TomT]

Will check it out in Jan Feb, hard courts in Hardy park? I'll look for you Tom T.

Hope we can hit Gonzalito17. Let me know via email. Regarding the premise of your thread that I haven't commented on yet, I think that when obviously lesser players lose to better players then they shouldn't whine about it. I'm pretty sure that lots of the 4.0+ players that I play, and who beat me mercilessly, are taking it easy on me. That is, they're not playing their best games. Ie., they're sort of pushing. I'm actually sort of glad about that because it makes the matches a little more interesting for me. Makes me feel like I have a chance to win ... which, of course, I don't.

Interestingly, the players who call me back for rematches and hitting sessions the most are the better players. I guess this is because of my attitude and the fact that I can actually hit pretty well ... even though I don't win many matches.

In my opinion, your ungrateful opponent should learn to be grateful for the opportunity to compete against better players. And not whine about the results.

 

[Gonzalito17]

Well said. Will let you know Tom thanks. On the flip side of it, the last time I got thrashed in a random park match (outside of USTA tournaments where it happens regularly)...a friend's friend was a great player and I was tired after already playing, 62 I think, you just take your hat off. Another time after playing I hit some tiebreakers with some Serbians who were next to us after my friend left, the one was okay but the other was a real fighter, tough player he won like 11-9, then they had to go. Never saw him again, but good player. You just take your hat off, don't try to belittle their game if they beat you, especially not if they beat you easily.

 

[heninfan99]

Well getting crushed or crushing someone in a set doesn't always mean that much. Federer begaled Djokovic in Cincy this year. I think we'd agree they are on the same level.