I have the strokes. I know the game. I just can't win.
- Thread starter HunterST
- Start date
HunterST
Hall of Fame
Yes, and I'm trying to improve to the 4.5 level.
Again you need to be more analytical. What do you do BETTER then most 4.5s you play against? Claiming you have the strokes is vague. Which stroke? Do you have a better serve? Better cross court forehands etc?
When you figure that out - tailor your game so that you do what you are better at as often as possible. Bonus figure out what they do badly - and think of ways to pit that against your strength.
The way you describe your game though - I suspect you feel that vaguely it just 'looks about the same as theirs' so you don't really have a recipe for winning. Every lower level player thinks this..
The 6.5 thinks hey I can hang with Fed - why can't I beat him? Main reason is Fed does EVERYTHING better then he does.
3.0s think this about 3.5s and so on and so forth. Learning how to win though involves pitting your strengths against their weaknesses (or at least having strengths and using them).
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
I totally agree.
9 out of 10 against a ball machine is not consistent/solid. A ball machine spits out predictable shots at you and is much easier than hitting against an opponent.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Watch Connors' classic matches.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Then you will have the same issue against 5.0s. Enjoy the process, accept and be ok where you are while working hard to improve. And slowly things will get easier against better players until you begin to beat them and new challenges arise.
J
HunterST
Hall of Fame
I didn't mean it literally. I just meant I can pretty much make it every time except for the occasional hiccup that every player has every now and then.
fundrazer
G.O.A.T.
How do you approach points and matchplay in general? Cause if you just go out there and do whatever it's not necessarily a recipe for success. What I normally say in these types of posts is this.
1) Look at how you win points. Any plays/patterns producing good results? Keep using them until opponent figures it out.
2) How are you losing points? Too many errors? Go safer. Giving opponent too many easy shots? Try to avoid letting them get into favorable positions. Ie don't fall into a pattern he/she likes.
1) Look at how you win points. Any plays/patterns producing good results? Keep using them until opponent figures it out.
2) How are you losing points? Too many errors? Go safer. Giving opponent too many easy shots? Try to avoid letting them get into favorable positions. Ie don't fall into a pattern he/she likes.
HunterST
Hall of Fame
Yeah, good point. There is always going to be someone better. I posted this after a frustrating loss where I played pretty poorly.
What I was getting at overall was just I need to become a better competitor. I always admire the guys who are absolute fighters and hang in there with players most people wouldn't give them a shot against. There have been some good tips for getting there on this thread.
HunterST
Hall of Fame
I definitely don't play with enough strategy that is specific to my opponent. I mostly just try to play smart tennis. I follow the directionals, try to serve to their weakness, etc. I need to work more on finding their weakness and trying to exploit it.
Got to say I never like Craig Oshannesy that much - but one thing he says is that you have to know yourself and know your opponent. What rec players try to do IMHO is simply out hit their opponent.
I been playing this guy a couple of times and honestly he is straight up better then me. But he plays really stupid tennis. He just hits down the line on most shots - good shots - DTL - so all I have to do is take them cross court - and watch him run.
So it doesn't matter if his stroke production is better then mine - if you just play dumb tennis and try to out hit your opponent.. That will only work if the skills are dramatically different in your favour..
4.0 to 4.5 is a big jump. To get there just outhitting your opponents is to much. I don't think its reasonable to worry about consistency in a vacumn. Its always how consistent are you compared to your opponent.
Let's say that you hit your cross court backhand in 9 out of 10 times - if your opponent can only hit it back 7 out of 10 times - thats a win.
Going from 4.0 to 4.5 can be tricky because that is the level where your game begins to develop a distinct personality. At 4.0 getting the ball back consistently is adequate. Against a decent 4.5, you will begin to get pushed around during points doing that. You don't really have any reliable weapons as a 4.5, so you need to come up with a plan that puts the percentages in your favor. It doesn't have to be complicated, but there is a big difference in grinding from the baseline and playing an all-court game, for example.
HunterST
Hall of Fame
I would agree for sure that my plan is to just outhit my opponents. In fact, at times, I've even consciously avoided a more detailed strategy thinking I should just be able to outhit my opponent.
Another issue is that, when I have tried to implement a strategy, I don't usually see a ton of results. I guess it's like any skill in tennis, it will take practice to get good at it.
HunterST
Hall of Fame
That's a great, insightful post. I never thought about it, but that's definitely true.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm not a teacher or coach so my sample size is limited. But based on that and the instruction I find on the internet, I think mental toughness is way under-rated and plays a much bigger role than most appreciate. Footwork and fitness are physical; mental toughness is...well, mental. You could have fantastic physical attributes but if the mental process is getting fouled up, those attributes won't help much.
Not that I disagree with you about fitness. But I certainly wouldn't tell someone to ignore mental toughness. Then again, I've never seen anyone transition to extremely fit so I don't know what effect that would have on mental toughness.
HunterST
Hall of Fame
I would have to agree that the mental aspect is a separate thing to a degree. For sure a lack of fitness could lead to mental lapses, but people also just get tight and nervous.
I'd have to point to people like musicians who can get nervous and under perform. It's an inability to handle their nerves that's messing them up, not their fitness. Again, though, having tired legs and an empty gas tank is going to make it difficult to be a mental giant.
BounceHitBounceHit
Legend
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
5263
G.O.A.T.
yes, but remember, the targets are like a wedge or lane that offers a more central/safer side, along with the other side being wider/aggressive, then of course, down the center balancing out the 2. If you look to hit more to the central/safer side of the lane, the shot is about as safe as you can expect while having some reasonable effect on your opponent.
Part of the coaching I use with the Targets is to work more central until the confidence is there each time on the courts and then work more into the center of the hitting lane when you feel you have full command of the shots.
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Yeah lots of good players rely on just out hitting their opponent. And this does work provided they are better. So if they get into a forehand to forehand rally - no big - they have the better forehand. If they hit dtl on a cross court ball - no big - because they can take that weak ball and make something out of it with minimal risk.
This is something that can trap you when you get used to playing less skilled players. Everything 'works' when every shot is better - you footwork is better - you move better etc.
But you are trying to go up. You now have to think - what do I do BETTER then my opponent? How can I make sure I do that? What does he do poorly? How can I make sure he does that..
I think even this board gets trapped in trite analysis.. AKA just be consistent and you will win. I have seen some really - REALLY good players who frankly aren't that consistent. One good example is the legit S and V guy. This guy absolutely misses some volleys and gets passed. His play is high risk. But it works because he simpy bets that over time his chance of winning a point of the serve and volley combo is better then the chance of him getting passed/lobbed repeatedly.
What's your strongest shot? What's the strength of your game? Any strategy needs to be built around that.
Another thing you hear on this board is that whenever a guy has an issue he needs to 'diversify' so - hey go to the net more etc. But often enough if you watch how people win its by titling everything to their strength. The guy with the killer forehand who wins makes damn sure he hits 80% forehands. You might beat him - but its going to be on his terms..
Learning how to beat people who are 'better' then you - that's the real trick. Tennis is lots of fun when you start to learn to beat people who have equivalent or even superior strokes, movement etc. And you can do it..
You just need SOMETHING you do better then they do..
I had the same reaction. You want to force the other guy to beat your best stuff, not Plan B.
Yup. Importantly - you have to have an idea of what your best stuff is. Honestly this problem comes about from playing guys that are too weak in comparison to your game. Someone like OP can play 4.0 guys without any plan and still win.
It's when you are relatively evenly matched that you learn how to win.. Sure you were winning before - but you weren't learning how to win in a fair fight. That's a whole nother ball of wax. It's a trite sports phrase but I like it for tennis - impose your will. But you need a will to impose. This is something Agassi learned to do better in his later years when he couldn't just outhit everyone like when he was young..
Smarticus523
New User
I also think it takes time to warm up as you play at a higher and higher level but you don't get more time to do so. While it would be nice to hit and do a full warm up that is not often possible. The solution I have found is to treat the first few games like practice and just hit easy and under control knowing it may cost you a few points or games but that it will ultimately help you win more matches and will allow your game to improve.
ParrotOnStrings
Rookie
I'll give you the tip that helped me most: record your matchplay. analyze it. you will be astonished how many things you will learn from that.
ReopeningWed
Professional
There was a period where I lost all of my matches and tight points because I was so afraid of losing that I'd get stiff and grind balls without using my entire body. I was a a great practice player and felt like I could do amazing things on court without pressure and rip balls to any spot on the court, but in matches I'd play with 3 times the topspin and be heavy on my feet and not move as aggressively.
The improvement came after I changed my mental approach to playing. In practice, I like to play 11 pointers for some kind of conditioning punishment, like sprints or planks or something significantly painful, or play for a round of beers or the loser has to play for dinner. Whatever you end up choosing, make sure the stakes are important so that you're under real pressure in practice.
During matches, play every point as if it doesn't matter (this is harder to execute than to write). For me, I had to be prepared to lose the way I wanted to play (being pretty consistent but also hitting heavy, attacking balls) so that hopefully there would be long term improvement. Playing tight and not being able to hit the ball loosely lead to me grinding with no pressure, and more often than not I just bleed out slowly from chasing everything down and looping it back instead of drawing mistakes.
The improvement came after I changed my mental approach to playing. In practice, I like to play 11 pointers for some kind of conditioning punishment, like sprints or planks or something significantly painful, or play for a round of beers or the loser has to play for dinner. Whatever you end up choosing, make sure the stakes are important so that you're under real pressure in practice.
During matches, play every point as if it doesn't matter (this is harder to execute than to write). For me, I had to be prepared to lose the way I wanted to play (being pretty consistent but also hitting heavy, attacking balls) so that hopefully there would be long term improvement. Playing tight and not being able to hit the ball loosely lead to me grinding with no pressure, and more often than not I just bleed out slowly from chasing everything down and looping it back instead of drawing mistakes.
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
Quote of the year for serve practice
First year with ball machine, I thought I was doing well after hitting 100 balls and only 10 were hit into the net. Improved from 20. Granted I had it set to throw some pretty heavy balls 50mph with heavy topspin. Guess I can still see the inconsistency, so next year i'll shoot for 95%
u cannot have solid strokes and then complain that they are not consistent. For strokes to be considered solid, they have to have a certain level of consistency. reminds me of players on the court who look perfect hitting rallies but cant keep two balls in play once a match starts and u start to move them around.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I agree with you.
One thing I often say here is that recreational players are Goldilock players. They tend to only do well within their own little range. Kinda like, not too fast, not too slow, not too high, not too low. They can't play when things get a little out of their range.
Wise one
Hall of Fame
Play serve and volley. You won't have time to get nervous. The points end quickly, one way or the other.
DavaiMarat
Professional
Hi Hunter,
Look a lot of people have advice about this. If you were like me for a time, no amount of practice, physical fitness, knowledge will be of help. You rally awesome in the warm up but as soon as the 1st serve is struck, you, well I couldn't keep the ball in the court. It was like I forgot about how to hit a smooth relaxed stroke and everything I hit had to be hit at 150%. I was scared that the opponent was going to make me hit another ball. I had to end everything with one shot. I had to hurt my opponent every shot. I would relax and rally to see what would happen, I had to force something to happen. It was almost like I rather hit the curtain with my shot than let my opponent hit a winner on me. At this point of my life, that mental state that amounted to a lot of losing. I want to play so badly but when I got there, on the court, I was stressed and miserable.
Sound Familar?
I did a lot of soul searching about this. Eventually, I actually was able to figure out the cause. For 2 seasons my team played me on court 1 where I should of been playing court 2 or 3. I ran into NCAA players, teaching pros, ranked juniors all the time. I was so worried about looking bad, it turns out, that it translated into my tennis game. I was so worried about 'fronting' i forgot how to hit the ball let alone the strategy of playing. I had something to 'prove'. Eventually it led to the demise of my game.
Anyhow, I think you get the point.
So how did I get out of this funk? I made up my mind that if I didn't start enjoying myself during a match (not only hitting) I was going to quit. I knew my game was good. I've been rated a 5.0 in my early days. I knew my level but just had to get out my own way. How?
I started to.....
'Live in the challenge'.
Too much of my time was dedicated to what I thought before the point and what I thought after the point. Meanwhile, I forgot to 'live' in the challenge. Love the fight, live in the 'now'. You can only affect what you are doing at this moment so go 'hit' the god damn ball and love it. Chase down those wide balls, chase down those lobs, winner, unforced error, who the hell cares. 'Hit the ball you are hitting right now. Don't worry about his next service game, don't worry about yours. Devote everything into the now, this shot, this point.
Also, Dance with the one you came with. This means, stop analyzing your game and technique and your racquet. Go out there and focus on what you want to do with the ball, not how to do it. You've already put the long hours in. Let it happen. Visualize the ball path and trust your body to make the shot. Stop trying to be Roger Federer. Rather, use your weapons to the best of your ability. And if you lose, he/she was just better that day.
Lastly, pre-accept that you might lose but also that you might win. Give yourself permission to do both. In the end, no will really care in the end but you. Think about how often you think about someone elses game. Do you judge their self worth on his/her ability to hit a ball? Would you call them a 'Moron' if they missed a ball when you were playing doubles with them? Why do we treat ourselves poorly when we make our own mistakes? Treat yourself nicer on the court and you'll be surprised how a little self-kindness will help you.
Hunter, I know this is a lot of pack in. But all of it is really coming from my own experience. What it really comes down to, probably, is some point you forgot this was a game. You forgot to 'play' and love the 'play'. You got to wrapped up in what people thought of you as a player, you got wrapped up in their expectations like I did. We wouldn't play this game if it wasn't challenging. You should love that challenge, love going up against the best. Realize 'winning' is actually out of your control. Get out of the expectations and into the points.
In end, it's you and a little fuzzy yellow tennis ball on one side of a court. What you do with it is all up to you.
=)
DavaiMarat
Wise one
Hall of Fame
Precisely! About ten years ago, I was resting after a match at the courts, and noticed a mother and father with their son. They were feeding him balls, then telling him how to grip the racquet, swing etc. After 45 minutes, the boy (I'd put him at about 12-13 years old) had not hit a ball over the net into the court. 45 minutes! I could hardly stand it anymore, so I wandered over and asked the parents if I could help. Instead of telling the boy how to hit the ball, I simply fed him some balls, saying 'hit the ball over the net'. When he missed, I said 'No! Hit the ball over the net!' It took all of five minutes before he did it. Why do you think I am called the 'Wise One'?
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
This becomes the issue more and more as players improve. First steps into it are probably trying to compete well in 4.5 and move to 5.0. Much of that comes down to fitness and consistency, and the margins get smaller and tougher to overcome as you move from there. So I feel ya and it is certainly the challenge of trained players to find what works.
Now...saying you know the correct stratgeies but still aren't winning is contradictive really. Maybe just beleiving you are doing things right is keeping you from making the improvements you need? Maybe the opponents know exactly the same strategies and do it that little bit better? In all, it is about looking critically at yourself and finding what is keeping you from winning, and I don't think having a belief you are doing everything right is a good place to start.
Only one person can change things for you.
All the best!
rrortiz5
Rookie
Don’t know if this is old or not, but dude... get match play in. I know there’s a lot of anti USTA/NTRP practice junkies here but the only way you feel good during matches regardless of your level is for the match play to not be so foreign. Most my matches are won because of opponent errors at the end of sets. Play enough matches where you can eventually feel free and loose while playing and tennis will feel like a different sport (for the better), I know easier said that done.
I’d like to strike a balance with this as I struggle to find practice partners who want to drill/do cardio/structured practice with me and I get only matchplay 2-3x a week and zero practice. As a matter of fact I’ve practiced probably only a handful of times in the last 3 months and my tennis has been scrappy not at its best. If it were up to me I’d like 2 matches a week and practice 3-4’other days but finding other players who want to get better as badly as I do isn’t easy to do.
It’s 1:48AM and I’m rambling but tldr play matches acquire confidence
I’d like to strike a balance with this as I struggle to find practice partners who want to drill/do cardio/structured practice with me and I get only matchplay 2-3x a week and zero practice. As a matter of fact I’ve practiced probably only a handful of times in the last 3 months and my tennis has been scrappy not at its best. If it were up to me I’d like 2 matches a week and practice 3-4’other days but finding other players who want to get better as badly as I do isn’t easy to do.
It’s 1:48AM and I’m rambling but tldr play matches acquire confidence
Your post made me laugh. For me.
I have the "inconsistent" strokes. I know the game "inside out". I just can't win.
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
This one reason I bought a ball machine, best purchase I ever made, not as good in some respects as practicing drilling with a player of similar level, but better for other reasons.
sphinx780
Hall of Fame
Harry_Wild
G.O.A.T.
Just do not have the “killer” instinct to make it up the tennis ladder if that the case! Just like high school team tennis, the tennis coach can tell who are the players who can win. It usually not the player with the best ground strokes or best serve or looks good hitting the ball around. It the guy usually that runs a lot, has determination and finds a way to win.
Wise one
Hall of Fame
Absolutely true. I play much better when thoroughly warmed up, and even better when playing in hot weather. I love playing at 90F.
Wise one
Hall of Fame
I'm not relating this to brag, but about 10 years ago I played a guy in our local club league, who was maybe a 3.0 or 3.5. I played my usual serve and volley game (with wood racquets) and beat him easily. Later I ran into him and he mentioned how he felt he had less of a chance against me, than against other players in the league who had more formidable strokes. So, it's just about experience and confidence derived from that experience. After 40 years, you learn a thing or two.
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TnsGuru
Professional
Federer went through that stage. Pretty strokes but couldn't break through until he won wimbledon 03 at 21/22 yrs old. He actually turned pro in 98 roughly 17 yrs old so it took a little time but once he put it all together he became the legend that you see today.
He took his lumps at the beginning but figured it out. You will too, keep trying. Federer was supposed to be the prodigy and the next big thing after he won Junior Wimbledon and was a runner-up at the U.S Open Juniors in 98 so there was tons of expectation not only from his coaches but from himself. That is a lot of pressure for a young man to handle, but he somehow got through it.
Could it be you have too much expectation and its putting extra pressure on you to succeed? Something to ponder.
He took his lumps at the beginning but figured it out. You will too, keep trying. Federer was supposed to be the prodigy and the next big thing after he won Junior Wimbledon and was a runner-up at the U.S Open Juniors in 98 so there was tons of expectation not only from his coaches but from himself. That is a lot of pressure for a young man to handle, but he somehow got through it.
Could it be you have too much expectation and its putting extra pressure on you to succeed? Something to ponder.
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Wise one
Hall of Fame
Although there are always exceptions, tennis is one sport that takes a long time to get 'good' at, longer than say running with a football. Unlike team sports such as football, where you have limited responsibilities, in tennis you're on your own. There's nobody to block for you.
One thing I can offer is that in tennis, you want to make the other guy try to beat you with shots that are more difficult than yours. Make him hit the lower-percentage shots (down the line over the highest part of the net, etc.).
Everybody wants instant success these days. Don't fall into that trap! Watch lots of old(!) tennis matches from the 70s with wood racquets. The game is slower, and you can see the strategy being applied by the players. Gerulaitis, Nastase, Borg. McEnroe, Panatta, Rosewall, Smith, Newcombe, Roche all had superb games.
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J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
TnsGuru
Professional
Kind of what Zverev is going through now. He has been in the top ten the last couple years but has only been in 1 QF GS. As much as I don't like his personality, he is actually a very good player and he will someday win several GS's when he figures it out.
Maybe Lendl is the key? We will see.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
I second the warm up idea. It usually takes me 30 minutes or a set to warm up, but ideally, 2 hours in I am at my best.
Funny, your solution is to hit easy, but such solution doesn't work for me at all! I prefer to run hard, try hard and hit hard to calibrate, "warm up" my games. If I play lower level people like women all day and then go into a match with advanced players, I'll be screwed.
If I start the first set with very good opponents, feel the game very difficult, I will only get better as time goes.
Wise one
Hall of Fame
Slow down your game. You have more time than you think. Don't try to hit winners. Hit deep crosscourt, waiting for an opening (a short ball). Hit the short ball low with slice in front of you and come in. Make your opponent have to rush.
HunterST
Hall of Fame
I wrote this a while back right after losing a tough match in a 4.5 tournament. It was a bit of a vent/woe is me post. I had failed to consider that I literally won the match right before that one.
Have to say I disagree that the only way to be inconsistent is through poor stoke mechanics. Plenty of people have issues with footwork, shot selection, or nerves rather than technique.
