WisconsinPlayer
Professional
Could be, it works well for me so Im not too worried about the details
I might be worse off trying to split step.
- Thread starter TimeToPlaySets
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D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
love it,... he owns his current state of tennis
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
I noticed that Andre and Kim Novak barely jump.
The toes are almost still touching the ground.
So, what is the consensus?
Jump as racket starts to move towards ball, in the air at contact?
The toes are almost still touching the ground.
So, what is the consensus?
Jump as racket starts to move towards ball, in the air at contact?
Slicerman
Professional
The way I time my split step, I jump during my opponent's swing and land at the same time that they make contact with the ball. Having a proper split step should actually improve your reaction time. It makes a big difference. For example, if I play with a doubles partner who doesn't use split step, I would be quick enough to run in front of my partner and intercept a ball that is going towards them while they're still taking back their racquet.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
How many feet do you have? First you say "feet" implying 2, then you say 3, then you say 4. Make up your mind, will ya?
Bender
G.O.A.T.
That's a fantastic WWII joke that I did N@zi coming.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Just pulling your foot, LeeD.
Which of his 4 feet are you pulling? Might be more effective to pull the whole leg.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Which of his 4 feet are you pulling? Might be more effective to pull the whole leg.
I'm pulling 3 of his forefeet...or was it 4 of his 3'?
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Watching pro footage.
I think my split step is too narrow and pointless.
Imagine standing confortable. Feet might be a few inches apart.
That is how I split step. Hop up then down. Narrow feet.
The pro widens his legs apart.
It is very hard to do something when you see no benefit in doing so.
Maybe part of the problem was that my feet are too narrow.
I will jump and widen past shoulders.
I think my split step is too narrow and pointless.
Imagine standing confortable. Feet might be a few inches apart.
That is how I split step. Hop up then down. Narrow feet.
The pro widens his legs apart.
It is very hard to do something when you see no benefit in doing so.
Maybe part of the problem was that my feet are too narrow.
I will jump and widen past shoulders.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Even if your spread is too narrow, at least you are in a good, balanced, ready position. Transitioning from a narrow stance to a wider one will be a lot easier than from no split step to a split step. It's a small adjustment.
Here's a good video [Simon from Top Tennis Training]:
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
It's impossible to split step without proper coaching.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
It's impossible to split step without proper coaching.
"Hope springs eternal.", dontcha know.
C
Chadillac
Guest
Yep, split at the beginning of the toss. Your also probably landing on your heels
Your not using your lean, put your feet together and have someone push you, you fall over. Use a wide stance and do the same. The wide stance is for guys with rhino legs, need a very strong core/upper as well.
Hitting later is expected, just adjust your prep and keep your elbows up on the return
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
i used to think this too.. but realized i'm just standing too far away.... ie day a 4.5 playing against a 3.5 serve (or even some 4.5 serves on clay).
the split becomes relevant again if you get close enough (ie take the serve early,... almost like an approach shot)... just need to find the sweet spot
Rod Laver don't split step!
I've been playing with a few former A level, or Open level player's recently. I did not get better at tennis, THEY got older, slower, and older.......
NOBODY split stepped in the 65+ catagory I play at, not even the former Open level player's or the guy who WON the 50's in the World Champs for that age division.
Split stepping is for young, aggressive, trained serious tennis player's. Which I"m not.
I've been playing with a few former A level, or Open level player's recently. I did not get better at tennis, THEY got older, slower, and older.......
NOBODY split stepped in the 65+ catagory I play at, not even the former Open level player's or the guy who WON the 50's in the World Champs for that age division.
Split stepping is for young, aggressive, trained serious tennis player's. Which I"m not.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
you can always do the "old man split" (someone on hear coined some kind of phrase like that)... ie. you don't actually hop, kinda shuffle and load vs. hop and land
no matter how old, if you're mobile, you have to load to change directions...
the "split" is just a way of timing the load on the opponents contact...
so instead of (without split):
1. observe
2. decide
3. load
4. move
you can (with split):
1. load + observe + decide
2. move
two steps less could mean up to a full second of delay...
I doubt a full second, maybe 1/4 of a second loss without a full hippity hop split step.
Lots of shortstops and third basemen don't split step, they start with feet 40" apart, then do a slight unweight with their knees but don't leave the ground. DB's don't split step, they stand low and ready with feet around 40" apart so they can push off with either feet to react to the receiver.
Lots of shortstops and third basemen don't split step, they start with feet 40" apart, then do a slight unweight with their knees but don't leave the ground. DB's don't split step, they stand low and ready with feet around 40" apart so they can push off with either feet to react to the receiver.
chikoo
Hall of Fame
split stepping for the sake of split stepping is counter productive. It will depend upon how good you are at either predicting the return - FH/BH - or how quick your legs are to move you in the drection of the return. Having both is the best, and that is what makes Federer the GOAT.
chikoo
Hall of Fame
Jump up and if you jump bit too high, the ball will pass you, leaving you up in the air without you even landing and moving towards the ball.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Except those who practice the split at the "lower" level will have that habit ingrained in them as they move up. Maybe the other guy who never practiced it will never get into the habit and thus be at a disadvantage later on.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm not young nor trained and only sometimes aggressive but I always [try to] split and be on my toes. It helps me optimize my game, even making me feel more engaged and "in the moment".
BS.... you're not 68 year's old, you can still run. I am, and I cannot and have not run at all since 2007.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm not arguing about your ability to split step. I'm arguing that the group who can split step is broader than the one you defined ["young, aggressive, trained serious tennis player's"].
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Beginning of the toss it too early to initiate the SS against most servers, particularly with servers who has a high toss. If you use the footwork that Andy Murray and I employ, you take a forward step with one foot and then initiate your split step on the upward swing of the racket (after the drop). This can be used for any toss height -- the rhythm (of the fwd step and then SS) will vary with the toss height. Quick rhythm for a low toss and a slower rhythm for a high toss.
You would normally be at the top of your hop at contact.
Take a look at post #18 for more details on that forward step that Murray takes during the toss.
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I get to play against several former A/Open, or 5.5+ level player's.
At age 70, + or - afew, NONE split step. All get to ready position, feet 3' or so apart, but NONE split step with any vertical movement.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Normally, you split step at contact, so do you do it a little earlier since the serve is coming faster?
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
You land from your split step slightly after contact by the opponent:
This makes sense: the split step is designed to get you ready to react. If you land before your opponent hits the ball, there's nothing to react to: you don't know where the ball is going and therefore, you don't know how to move.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
I am now more convinced than ever that split step is more of a handicap than benefit.
Everyone's serve toss is a different height, and their swing speed differs.
You can spend the entire match trying to calibrate the split step for a new opponent.
I am doing away with the pointless bunny hop.
Instead, I will just bend my knees slightly when the opponent makes contact.
This will have the exact same outcome as the silly split step, and take away all the guesswork and error of timing.
Everyone's serve toss is a different height, and their swing speed differs.
You can spend the entire match trying to calibrate the split step for a new opponent.
I am doing away with the pointless bunny hop.
Instead, I will just bend my knees slightly when the opponent makes contact.
This will have the exact same outcome as the silly split step, and take away all the guesswork and error of timing.
I don't know why you are singling out the split step. Seems to be way down the list of issues. And you absolutely need it when you go to the net. LMAO. Saw you run through the ball to hit a volley in that video. Better players will pick that up and make you into a joke if they catch on. Weak lobs over your head no problem.. Without stopping with the split step you are dead in water.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
You're giving up way too easily. Doomed to remain in 3.5-land for eternity.
The timing of the SS itself should not be tied to the service toss. Cue off the upward swing (after the racket drop) instead. With as little bit of practice, it should not be too difficult to pick on the timing. Not much adjustment at all needed for one server to the next. By watching the upward swing CLOSELY for the timing of your SS, you will be able to sync up to the rhythm of the server and will will probably pick up some very useful information on the type and/or placement of the serve. This will often happen on a subconscious level but, if you are not focused on the upward swing, you may miss out on some of this input/info.
Employing a knee bend as soon as you hear the serve contact will provide some benefit, but it will not be quite a good. You're losing some of the rhythm syncing I spoke of. You will probably watch other stuff instead of focusing primarily/exclusively on the upward swing. Not ideal. Also, you will get a more explosive movement fro a real SS. Typically, the SS used for serve returns are often a bit more pronounced other "rally" SS.
Now IF you want to take a forward step prior to your SS, then you would cue off the toss. Slower, longer deliberate step for a high toss and a short, quick forward step for a low/quick toss. Helps to sync to the rhythm of the server if you do this.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
What exactly is the downside of running through the ball when chasing down a short floater?
It is more natural to just run to it and swat it out of the air.
It seems opposite to suddenly stop, and split step, and then resume moving, when you are chasing something down.
It's like you're stopping for a hiccup or something. Why not one fluid action, like in the video?
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Yea, I just don't see the point. Everything is a cost/benefit.
It is clear that the SS has been a net negative in my own results.
At 3.5, I'd have more reaction time just standing there.
As someone else said, it's not needed at 3.5, and I tend to agree.
I do the pre-step thing, but that seems to only screw up the timing even more.
I will try to jump as the racket moves upwards, but am not really seeing any point to it. Not bought into it.
It is clear that the SS has been a net negative in my own results.
At 3.5, I'd have more reaction time just standing there.
As someone else said, it's not needed at 3.5, and I tend to agree.
I do the pre-step thing, but that seems to only screw up the timing even more.
I will try to jump as the racket moves upwards, but am not really seeing any point to it. Not bought into it.
FiReFTW
Legend
Do you play any other sports? Because your talking nonsense.
Do you know what an athletic stance is?
You strike me as a guy who doesn't play a lot of sports and things like these feel unnatural to him, and so he simply does not do them and severely limits his own body potential, his speed, acceleration, reaction by having a sub-optimal body position, stance and movement.
Athletic stance for optimal movement in sports and changing direction:
Probably OP's feet position when moving in sports and changing direction:
There are reasons for doing things, because its more optimal and offers greater potential, better speed, better acceleration, better reaction..
Why anyone would want to LIMIT themselves by their OWN choice is beyond me... but whatever makes you happy.
SinjinCooper
Hall of Fame
Maybe, but so far it's only been 30 years.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
As pointed out in a previous thread, it CAN be a liability if you are too late because you will be in mid-air as the ball is going past you. If you are too early, you lose most of the benefit and you've expended some energy which was wasted. But at least if you are split stepping vs not split stepping, your timing can be adjusted. If I was a coach, I'd rather my student split at the wrong time so we could then address the issue.
Using that logic, you should dispense with the unit turn also because everyone's GSs are a different speed with different contact points and different reaches.
Or, it's pointless to learn how to use the web because every web page is different: some have pulldown menus, some don't have search functions, some have chat features, etc.
Or you would do what everyone else does: adapt.
It's interesting how you feel the need to disparage things that you aren't good at. As if the technique itself was at fault.
Well, it's your game. I think you will get some of the benefit with the knee bend [maybe 25%?] but you're leaving a lot on the table, IMO. Since your stated goal was to move past 3.5, I think you are making a long-term mistake even if it may help in the short-term.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Because when your opponent is about to hit the ball, you don't know it's going to be a short floater. The split is to prepare you for optimal movement in any direction.
If, in your cherry-picked example, you gamble and omit the split step and your opponent hits a short floater, you win the "bet". But if he hits something else, you lose: you would have been better off split stepping.
What's "natural" and what's "optimal" may be two different things. You're looking only at the short floater case and ignoring any other eventuality. Yes, if you know that every opponent shot will be a short floater, by all means dispense with the split step.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
How much does it cost you?
However, that doesn't mean the technique is useless; it just means you have to get better at it. If you accept it has benefits [as evidenced by the vast majority of high-level players doing it], then you'd accept that you have to work at it.
The only reason you agree is because it aligns with what you already believe.
I'd modify the argument to "The faster the pace of the level, the more a split step is necessary." It's not a black and white decision that the split step is not needed at level <= X but it is at level > X + 0.5.
I'd also argue that by split stepping from the very beginning, you are preparing yourself for the eventuality of reaching that higher level rather than having to learn it all of a sudden.
Pursuing this logic, you will never buy into it: you're unconvinced because you don't see the benefit in your own game so you don't practice it so you're not good at it. That's a recursive loop from which you'll never escape. If you watch high level players and notice they are all split stepping [or watch high level servers and notice they are all moving towards their target with their back leg kicked up behind them as opposed to the side], you will tend to try to adopt their technique.
But either you don't observe this or you don't make the connection that all high level players are doing basically the same thing.
Or you could be pulling everyone's collective leg or playing Devil's Advocate by posting outlier statements ["it's impossible to do X", "split stepping is useless", "everyone needs $10K in coaching to get to the next level", etc].
No. Running through the ball is when you just guess. You were back - some guy had not hit the ball yet - and you ran through - you charged at the net and did not stop around the time he hit the ball. This works fine if the opponent never figures out that you are guessing.
But higher level players will see that you are guessing - aka not stopping before he hits the ball - and take rutheless advantage of the problem. This is why in the real world so few people go to the net effectively. They just charge in. It's a textbook beginner mistake that's fixed with the... you guessed it split step.
You split right when your opponent hits the ball - so if he lobs you - you can quickly drop step. If you are running through you can't change direction. You have to run through - realize he hit the ball over your head (after a step or two) and then stop and then run back.
Likewise its the same on recovery. If say you are pulled out wide - you need to stop and split - so you can change direction - sometime before the opponent makes contact. You can't just run back the other way - because if he hits back to the side you were running from you will be dead in the water. Split stepping is not some ornamental thing - if you don't do it it's going to hurt your game against better players.
Again - and I don't say this to be mean - cause I am not exactly Deon Sanders out there.. Your principle problem on the court is that you lack athleticism. You don't move athletically - you don't use an athletic stance - you don't split step etc. You look awkward and slow out there. One guy even wondered if you are a naturally lefty looking at that 'forehand'.
Your a big strong guy but you need to work on your movement and footwork. Yeah its the hard part. But if you want to move beyond your level that's what you should work on. Suck it up - try to split step.
You also have to stay on your balls of your feet - and not stand around flat footed. Again this is hard if you are a big guy. But it's your weakness.
Your one of those guys who looks for affirmation on what he is doing wrong on the boards. AKA I only do x - tell me this is correct.
It's not. Just suck it up and try to do it the correct way.. Or quit complaining..
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Let me rephrase. If I KNOW the ball is going to be hit directly at me, is there any benefit to split stepping?
You're saying split stepping for net charge volleys is mainly so you don't get faked out?
No wonder I don't do it, b/c it does not apply to 3.5.
At 3.5, it's rare for people to react to your location, they just smash the **** out of the ball as hard as possible.
You're saying, if I charge the net, the opponent will know I can only move forward, so he will hit it to my side (or lob me?)
I guess I do get lobbed, but at that point, I'm not going to get it just b/c I split stepped. So, I'm not seeing it.
Again, flat footed is BETTER than an ill-timed split step, since now you're LATER than if you did nothing. And timing a split step is clearly not intuitive or obvious. I will devote an entire lesson to just split step timing, and see if there is any benefit whatsoever.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by awkward and slow. The entire video consisted of me returning serves that were hit directly at me.
What is ironic is that compared to most 3.5's, I get complimented at least once a match for a great get / dig they were not expecting me to even attempt chasing down.
You're saying split stepping for net charge volleys is mainly so you don't get faked out?
No wonder I don't do it, b/c it does not apply to 3.5.
At 3.5, it's rare for people to react to your location, they just smash the **** out of the ball as hard as possible.
You're saying, if I charge the net, the opponent will know I can only move forward, so he will hit it to my side (or lob me?)
I guess I do get lobbed, but at that point, I'm not going to get it just b/c I split stepped. So, I'm not seeing it.
Again, flat footed is BETTER than an ill-timed split step, since now you're LATER than if you did nothing. And timing a split step is clearly not intuitive or obvious. I will devote an entire lesson to just split step timing, and see if there is any benefit whatsoever.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by awkward and slow. The entire video consisted of me returning serves that were hit directly at me.
What is ironic is that compared to most 3.5's, I get complimented at least once a match for a great get / dig they were not expecting me to even attempt chasing down.
But you will..
It works like this..
This is why people split step BTW its just a way of stopping so you can change direction quickly.
Let me break it down.
A -> Start. YOU hit ball (or partner) - during time that ball is in air and before opponent hits it - you move in. So you are going forward.
B-> Split. Opponent is about to hit ball. You stop via split step. Think hopscotch. It's a kind of jump into a split-step.
C-> React. If enemy hits approach shot - move to right or left to deal with approach. Hit volley. If they lob instead of cross stepping to the volley - drop step and cover the lob.
If you break this chain and instead just stick with A - and only react while trying to run forward (C) you will get absolutely burned.
Why? Because you can't stop if they lob. You can only adjust the direction of your run a bit.
And no this is not a high level thing. Its a very low level thing. Older men and women are pretty good at throwing up lobs - even at the 3.0/3.5 level. They don't have your wheels or strength but they have moxie and this is a rookie mistake you are making.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
I get it, but it simply has not applied to me.
Now that I think about it, I don't get lobbed much.
Maybe b/c I've played doubles all winter?
Most people can't even hit a lob.
They just pop it up, and it's an easy overhead.
Also, I am only going in on deep shots to backhand.
And, for sure, no one is lobbing b/c they have seen I don't split step.
No one at 3.5 split steps themselves.
Now that I think about it, I don't get lobbed much.
Maybe b/c I've played doubles all winter?
Most people can't even hit a lob.
They just pop it up, and it's an easy overhead.
Also, I am only going in on deep shots to backhand.
And, for sure, no one is lobbing b/c they have seen I don't split step.
No one at 3.5 split steps themselves.
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