I showed the Wilson rep up!! haha

[35ft6]

Personally I think that you did the correct thing but not in the correct fashion. I don't think it would be very kind if someone walked up to my workplace and said that all my products are falsely advertised. It would be very kind if you went back to that Pro Shop and apologized for your rash behavior to the salesperson.

Don't apologize for telling the truth.

That is why the CEOs of Wilson Sports are millionaires and you are not. The world is not built on trust, honesty, or honor. It is built on money, and that is what the Sales Representative was trying to get.

No problem. Next time somebody lies to you to get at your money, you can read your posting and feel better. And remember to tell you kids, if you have any, that it's okay to lie if it'll help them make money, and that being honest is for poor suckers.

 

[fishuuuuu]

No problem. Next time somebody lies to you to get at your money, you can read your posting and feel better. And remember to tell you kids, if you have any, that it's okay to lie if it'll help them make money, and that being honest is for poor suckers.

It's a choice to believe that lie or to be educated. It is not someone's place to try to educate you when the matter is so trivial as to "HEY THIS LITTLE GIRL WHO'S PROBABLY NEVER PLAYED TENNIS BEFORE IS BEING SOLD A PAINTJOBBED RACKET OMFG!1!!1!1one!!1"

And as far as children, don't you worry when I have them I will tell them that.

 

[Andy Zarzuela]

Ok, now I am a villian. It's not like I was rude! All I did was inquire about Serena's powerholes on her ncode racquet to the rep. That was it! There is nothing wrong with inquiring minds. All the other stuff was internal thinking. BTW, I'm not the only one who bashes the paintjob idea. Maybe not the marketing aspect of it, but telling the public something that may not be 100% true. I have started a very heated debate. And just to let you guys know, I was very pleasant in tone and not a "jacka$$" ok. Like I said, all I did was ask about Serena's 12o'clock powerholes. There is nothing wrong with that.

With that said, I realize there will always be the possitive replies and the negative ones. Obviously, most of you guys got the wrong idea about me being a "jerK" while he was trying to make a sale. For some reason, you guys got the idea that I was being rude and obnioxious. I spoke in a polite, inquiring tone. Wilson makes exceptional tennis equipment, but honestly, I have nothing to apologize for and in the end, there was no harm done.
________
Wendie 99

 

[tennisnj]

Andy, I've been following the back & forth comments from this post since its inception & I want to say that I am 100% behind you Andy! Kudos to you for pointing out that most of these reps are lying. I don't care if there was a child involved or an unsuspecting father, regardless, the rep was lying. You are not the villain here, the villains here are those who dupe others into believing that stores & websites they work for actually sell the 'exact' racquets the pros use and that you should use them too!

I am constantly in the local Sports Authority listening to the guys (I've never seen women so drop it already) literally vomit up their so-called knowledge of tennis racquets just to make a sale, when most of them couldn't tell you the difference b/t a tennis racquet & a table tennis paddle. And these guys do the same; they say "Roger Federer plays w/this, or "Maria Sharapova plays w/that, so you should play with it too if you want a forehand like his/hers." Andy keep up the good work!

 

[lacoster]

Eh. who cares. Wilson will discontinue the Ncode line in about a year anyways and then it's on to the new color schemes (pun intended). You could've done them a favor and tell them to wait after the season when she can get her Ncrap on the clearance rack (in a polite manner, of course).
________
MEDICAL MARIJUANA STATES

 

[35ft6]

It's a choice to believe that lie or to be educated. It is not someone's place to try to educate you when the matter is so trivial as to "HEY THIS LITTLE GIRL WHO'S PROBABLY NEVER PLAYED TENNIS BEFORE IS BEING SOLD A PAINTJOBBED RACKET OMFG!1!!1!1one!!1"

So the rep is saying a lie, and another guy is telling the truth, but for some reason the liar is being defended. And how does a person exercise the choice of believing a lie or to be educated if they're unaware of the fact that there's something they're, well, unaware of in the first place?

And as far as children, don't you worry when I have them I will tell them that.

Cool. We'll be due for another Enron in 40 years. If I raise my future kids right maybe they'll be the ones prosecuting your kids. One can only hope.

 

[fishuuuuu]

My apologies Andy, I assumed too much and thought you went in there with a "know it" attitude. It sounded that way from your post =]

EDIT; knew I forgot something. Next time just tell the guy and his kid.

So the rep is saying a lie, and another guy is telling the truth, but for some reason the liar is being defended. And how does a person exercise the choice of believing a lie or to be educated if they're unaware of the fact that there's something they're, well, unaware of in the first place?

Scaring people at their work is still well...scary.

I'd probably say something to apologize but I don't understand =\

Cool. We'll be due for another Enron in 40 years. If I raise my future kids right maybe they'll be the ones prosecuting your kids. One can only hope

Don't you ever learn? The next time around we won't get caught :mrgreen:

 

[slice bh compliment]

Interview Q's for the gallery

It is an interesting topic. Thanks gang.

I'm just curious:

How many of you, after reading Andy Zarzuela's most recent post, went to page one of this thread and re-read his starter post?

How many of you those defending him did the same?

Those of you who think he was out of line: are you just defending Wilson, or would you do the same for Babolat, Yonex, Dunlop, Prince, etc?

Those of you who dig the 'consumer watchdog' angle: are you defending him because you have an anti-Wilson bias, or would you do the same for someone questioning the integrity of Babolat, Dunlop, Yonex...etc?

Watchdogs: would YOU, personally play with a paintjob, if you were in Serena's/Roger's/Sharapova's....position? Or would you feel like you were misleading the public?

Nothing serious. Just curious.

 

[gregraven]

Ok, now I am a villian. It's not like I was rude! All I did was inquire about Serena's powerholes on her ncode racquet to the rep. That was it! There is nothing wrong with inquiring minds. All the other stuff was internal thinking. BTW, I'm not the only one who bashes the paintjob idea. Maybe not the marketing aspect of it, but telling the public something that may not be 100% true. I have started a very heated debate. And just to let you guys know, I was very pleasant in tone and not a "jacka$$" ok. Like I said, all I did was ask about Serena's 12o'clock powerholes. There is nothing wrong with that.

With that said, I realize there will always be the possitive replies and the negative ones. Obviously, most of you guys got the wrong idea about me being a "jerK" while he was trying to make a sale. For some reason, you guys got the idea that I was being rude and obnioxious. I spoke in a polite, inquiring tone. Wilson makes exceptional tennis equipment, but honestly, I have nothing to apologize for and in the end, there was no harm done.

I'm guessing that you do not have access to one of Serena's actual racquets, so in fact you don't know what you are talking about. And if you feel strongly that you know so much, and that anyone who says different is lying, you certainly have your work cut out for you right here on the TW message board, because TW also claims that certain pros play certain racquets. I can't wait to see you jumping in on every racquet inquiry to tell the prospective buyer not to buy the racquet because TW is lying!

I also find it interesting that you say you were neither rude nor obnoxious. I assume, then, that the Wilson rep (or the prospective buyers) saw you passing by and asked for your opinion on pro equipment. If you were not invited into the conversation, then you rudely and obnoxiously inserted yourself into it. Just because you had a polite tone of voice doesn't give you the right to be involved in the first place.

 

[Andy Zarzuela]

I'm guessing that you do not have access to one of Serena's actual racquets, so in fact you don't know what you are talking about. And if you feel strongly that you know so much, and that anyone who says different is lying, you certainly have your work cut out for you right here on the TW message board, because TW also claims that certain pros play certain racquets. I can't wait to see you jumping in on every racquet inquiry to tell the prospective buyer not to buy the racquet because TW is lying!

I also find it interesting that you say you were neither rude nor obnoxious. I assume, then, that the Wilson rep (or the prospective buyers) saw you passing by and asked for your opinion on pro equipment. If you were not invited into the conversation, then you rudely and obnoxiously inserted yourself into it. Just because you had a polite tone of voice doesn't give you the right to be involved in the first place.

Obviously, you weren't there..so you wouldn't know. He wasn't just addressing the father and daughter, there were alot of people around. Kind of like when a kid shows a science project to a panel of judges. There is obviously nothing wrong with what I asked. And I'll stick to that.
________
Lovely Wendie99

 

[matchpoints]

Obviously, you weren't there..so you wouldn't know. He wasn't just addressing the father and daughter, there were alot of people around. Kind of like when a kid shows a science project to a panel of judges. There is obviously nothing wrong with what I asked. And I'll stick to that.

During X'mas season in the mall, will you go up to the kids and tell them that the Santa they are sitting on is fake? And that he's never going to come down their chimney and not to leave Santa any cookies and milk?

I reread your last post "I was very pleasant in tone and not a "jacka$$" ok"

Then I reread your thread title "I showed the Wilson rep up!! haha"

Then I got confused....

 

[danniflava]

I agree that it was rude and unkind for the Wilson Rep. to cheat his way to a sell, but I don't think it was Andy's place to make a scene.

 

[chad shaver]

I do agree with Andy in principle.

To me, though, the title of the thread indicates that there was some rudeness involved. Also the last word of "Ok, then why does Serena have powerholes on top of her frame huh?" seems to indicate a bit of confrontationalism.

Oh well, glad I wasn't involved in that situation.

 

[tennissavy]

From the father/daughter's point of view, the Wilson rep is doing them a favor. The daughter wouldn't be able to handle a real pro's racquet. That's why Wilson sells the retail version to recreational players because that's a version we can actually handle, and they make a different version for the pros because a pro's game has very different demands. She may think she wants to use Serena's racquet, but she really doesn't. Nothing wrong with her satisfying her own ego by thinking she's using Serena's racquet if the one she's actually using is helping her game.

If Wilson only sold the actual pros' versions of racquets, their sales would drop by 99% because 99% of the tennis playing population wouldn't be able to handle the pros' racquets. I don't understand why people are so obsessed with paintjobs and wanting to use a pro's exact racquet with their exact set-up. Most of these same people wouldn't be able to handle it and would probably play worse with it than their current racquet. Come on, do they really think they would just magically play just like Federer if they could only get a hold of his actual racquet? Gimme a break!!! If it was that easy, every pro that depends on tennis to make a living would be using Federer's exact racquet!

Wilson is not doing the public any favors by selling a light paintjob fraud of a racquet. If you think that a racquet that weighs more than 10 oz. is too much for the public, you are totally wrong. I started playing tennis as an adult and noticed a vast improvement in every way once I weighted my racquets. Some weigh 12.5 oz and I have one that weighs 15.4 oz. It is not too much weight if it is head light or evenly balanced. The old wood racquets were around 18 oz. and women and little kids used them effectively. Light racquets are bad for one's game and bad for one's body. If you would just do some research on the topic of racquet weight/customization and try it yourself, you will realize what those of us who are "saavy" know- light racquets are not good and heavy racquets, properly balanced are good- to put it simply. People who use light racquets, even those who are winning matches, would get better results with less injury risk and less needed effort if they were to weight their racquets correctly. Everyone should do it, not just the pros.

 

[raftermania]

Continuing on this side-thought:

I was playing with my beginner friend about a month ago. He didn't have a racquet so I let him use my Walmart superoversize headheavy 10 oz'ish frame thinking it would make the game easier for him.

Reality had it after a good hour of hitting, his wrist got sore. So I lent him my backup Prince Warrior modified to 12.5 oz and 8 pts. headlight. He instantly felt the difference on the first couple of hits. There was no shock and far more reduced vibration and he could really drive through the ball.

The beginner racquets (head heavy, big head size and light) have much more potential for injury than advanced racquets. You have to wonder why developed players with excellent technique to avoid injury use the safest racquets and the beginners use the most dangerous. Doesn't that make you think??????? :mrgreen:

 

[need2paint]

Continuing on this side-thought:

I was playing with my beginner friend about a month ago. He didn't have a racquet so I let him use my Walmart superoversize headheavy 10 oz'ish frame thinking it would make the game easier for him.

Reality had it after a good hour of hitting, his wrist got sore. So I lent him my backup Prince Warrior modified to 12.5 oz and 8 pts. headlight. He instantly felt the difference on the first couple of hits. There was no shock and far more reduced vibration and he could really drive through the ball.

The beginner racquets (head heavy, big head size and light) have much more potential for injury for advanced racquets. You have to wonder why developed players with excellent technique to avoid injury use the safest racquets and the beginners use the most dangerous. Doesn't that make you think??????? :mrgreen:

Very well said. I've always felt that there is no advantage to 'game improvement' racquets. They only make you more injury pron and hinder you in learning proper technique.

The difference between swinging a 12 oz and a 10 oz is not as big as people make it out to be, and the 12 oz is going to be much more stable and safe.

 

[BreakPoint]

Wilson is not doing the public any favors by selling a light paintjob fraud of a racquet. If you think that a racquet that weighs more than 10 oz. is too much for the public, you are totally wrong. I started playing tennis as an adult and noticed a vast improvement in every way once I weighted my racquets. Some weigh 12.5 oz and I have one that weighs 15.4 oz. It is not too much weight if it is head light or evenly balanced. The old wood racquets were around 18 oz. and women and little kids used them effectively. Light racquets are bad for one's game and bad for one's body. If you would just do some research on the topic of racquet weight/customization and try it yourself, you will realize what those of us who are "saavy" know- light racquets are not good and heavy racquets, properly balanced are good- to put it simply. People who use light racquets, even those who are winning matches, would get better results with less injury risk and less needed effort if they were to weight their racquets correctly. Everyone should do it, not just the pros.

I guess you haven't been around this board long enough to know that I do racquet reviews for TW, have been playing tennis for over 30 years starting with wood racquets, have over 2,000 posts, and I believe I know my racquets pretty well. No need for me to do any research about racquet/body safety. I've lived it. I play with a PS 6.0 that's close to 13.0 oz, and know all about the benefits of a heavy, flexible racquet over a light and stiff racquet. Unfortunately, You and I are in the minority as evidenced by racquet sales. The majority of people who buy racquets want light racquets. They think a light and powerful racquet will solve all of their game's deficiencies. Most racquets are sold from their "pick-up weight" rather than from demos. People go to the store, pick up a racquet and swing it around, and think it feels easy to swing so they buy it. That's the sad truth. There's a reason why light racquets like the Babolat Pure Drive, Wilson H-Tour, and the Head LM Radical are some of the best selling racquets, and why heavier, flexible racquets like the PS 6.0 have been discontinued. Bottom line is: Lighter racquets sell better than heavier racquets.

If that guy's daughter (perhaps she's only 10 years old?) used a pro's low-powered, 14 oz. racquet, she would get creamed by her friend using a 10 oz. Prince Shark, and then she would probably quit tennis in frustration. Not much help for Wilson's future business.

BTW, before the PS 6.0 I used a 14.0 oz. Dunlop Max 200G for 13 years and a wood Dunlop Maxply Fort for over 10 years before that. Wood racquets for the general public were NEVER 18 oz. They were mostly around 14 oz. I owned and played with over a dozen models.

 

[jura]

The beginner racquets (head heavy, big head size and light) have much more potential for injury than advanced racquets. You have to wonder why developed players with excellent technique to avoid injury use the safest racquets and the beginners use the most dangerous. Doesn't that make you think??????? :mrgreen:

There is one mistake in your thoughts: very light and head heavy rackets are NOT made for beginners! They are made for "bad" players with poor style, that's a difference! I give you an example: My mother is 64 years old. She plays tennis since 30 years. Her style is horrible! Her swing is that low that she has to be happy to reach the baseline. BUT she hits the ball quit constant. She plays a Head i. S18, one of the lightest and biggest head heavy frames. It's a perfect racket for her. Because it makes a lot of power without needing lots of swing.
Your friend might be younger and fitter than my mother. He probably has more power and swing. So he needs a racket that shows him his mistakes. The i. S18 or similar sticks don't. And if you don't feel your mistakes you start to practice mistakes. Your friend might have had some of-center-hits with the first racket. The ball gets power anyway, but also it gives pain to his arm. My mother hits the ball quit in the middle. But she has no swing and no power. Thats why she needs a racket like this.

Generally there a two ways to give power to the ball:
1. Your swing and your good technique. For this you need weight!
2. The power of the racket due to big head and wide frame. These rackets are made for players with low swing and power. For these players weight is bad because they can't use it due to poor swing and power.

To find the right mixture of these two kinds of power is the big problem when you search the right racket for every single of millions of tennis players in the world!

 

[35ft6]

I started off with a standard sized racket, played with that for 2 years, then finally bugged my parents into getting me a midsize. I could hit nasty shots with that racket, a racket that I probably couldn't do jack with these days. I stopped playing for a couple of years, and when I started playing again I wanted a new racket, so got a Wilson Hammer 7.2, one of the most flexible rackets out there. I could still hit plenty hard with it, but right before my last year of college tennis, I decided to get an oversized racket with 70 stiffness.

It instantly made me better. My technique was always pretty good, but all of the sudden I knew that with this new racket that if I kept my form really clean, I didn't have to worry about power.

Now I'm considering going back to a player's racket. I don't know.

 

[tennissavy]

I guess you haven't been around this board long enough to know that I do racquet reviews for TW, have been playing tennis for over 30 years starting with wood racquets, have over 2,000 posts, and I believe I know my racquets pretty well. No need for me to do any research about racquet/body safety. I've lived it. I play with a PS 6.0 that's close to 13.0 oz, and know all about the benefits of a heavy, flexible racquet over a light and stiff racquet. Unfortunately, You and I are in the minority as evidenced by racquet sales. The majority of people who buy racquets want light racquets. They think a light and powerful racquet will solve all of their game's deficiencies. Most racquets are sold from their "pick-up weight" rather than from demos. People go to the store, pick up a racquet and swing it around, and think it feels easy to swing so they buy it. That's the sad truth. There's a reason why light racquets like the Babolat Pure Drive, Wilson H-Tour, and the Head LM Radical are some of the best selling racquets, and why heavier, flexible racquets like the PS 6.0 have been discontinued. Bottom line is: Lighter racquets sell better than heavier racquets.

If that guy's daughter (perhaps she's only 10 years old?) used a pro's low-powered, 14 oz. racquet, she would get creamed by her friend using a 10 oz. Prince Shark, and then she would probably quit tennis in frustration. Not much help for Wilson's future business.

BTW, before the PS 6.0 I used a 14.0 oz. Dunlop Max 200G for 13 years and a wood Dunlop Maxply Fort for over 10 years before that. Wood racquets for the general public were NEVER 18 oz. They were mostly around 14 oz. I owned and played with over a dozen models.

The issue I have here is that the girl should be able to handle a heavy racquet if it is properly balanced. It would have more power than a 10 oz. racquet not less power! The whole notion of lighter being better,from the racquet manufacturers, is so wrong. There are so many people complaining of pain, especially in the elbow, from these light racquets. I feel bad for them because they believe what the manufacturers write about their racquets-"new lighter, more powerful..." These light racquet sell better because the manufacturers promote them. They really should have done the opposite promotion for thegood of the general public-"hefty, more stable, arm friendly...hit more powerful shots with less effort" because you and I know that's the truth. I had one ignorant guy insist that lighter was better and he wouldn't switch to a heavy frame or modify his racquet despite all that I told him. He kept citing all that the manufacturers had written to promote the racquets and told me I knew nothing. He wasted so much energy trying to generate power that he sacrificed so much control and placement-it was sad. I haven't seen him for a long time so I have to wonder if he injured himself. The public is being done a great disservice by the manufacturers and it is also not right to deceive people with the painjobs and lying to them about buying the same exact stick as their favorite pros.

 

[BreakPoint]

The issue I have here is that the girl should be able to handle a heavy racquet if it is properly balanced. It would have more power than a 10 oz. racquet not less power! The whole notion of lighter being better,from the racquet manufacturers, is so wrong. There are so many people complaining of pain, especially in the elbow, from these light racquets. I feel bad for them because they believe what the manufacturers write about their racquets-"new lighter, more powerful..." These light racquet sell better because the manufacturers promote them. They really should have done the opposite promotion for thegood of the general public-"hefty, more stable, arm friendly...hit more powerful shots with less effort" because you and I know that's the truth. I had one ignorant guy insist that lighter was better and he wouldn't switch to a heavy frame or modify his racquet despite all that I told him. He kept citing all that the manufacturers had written to promote the racquets and told me I knew nothing. He wasted so much energy trying to generate power that he sacrificed so much control and placement-it was sad. I haven't seen him for a long time so I have to wonder if he injured himself. The public is being done a great disservice by the manufacturers and it is also not right to deceive people with the painjobs and lying to them about buying the same exact stick as their favorite pros.

I totally agree with you that heavier and more flexible is better for the body than stiffer and lighter. However, the fact of the matter is, there are many people who play tennis that would have trouble using a heavy player's racquet with very low power. Jura's post above about his mother is a perfect example. Many older people don't have the strength anymore to swing a heavy racquet and cannot rotate their shoulders and trunk as fast to generate power. They're also not as fast on their feet anymore and cannot get into the proper position needed to effectively use a player's racquet. They need the help from a light , powerful racquet with a huge head to compensate for their lack of agility, speed, strength, and proper form. There's nothing wrong with that. If the manufacturers only sold heavy, low-powered, small-headed, player's racquets, many of these older folks would likely quite playing tennis because it'll be way too much work for them and they might not enjoy it. They would have a hard time getting their heavy racquets on the ball and hitting the ball past the net!

Same applies to young kids. They haven't developed the strength nor strokes yet to use a heavy, low-powered racquet and need some help from a lighter, more powerful racquet. Once they're older and have developed their strength and strokes, they can change to more of a player's racquet.

Since older folks and young kids make up a huge portion of the tennis racquet market, the manufacturers are just addressing their needs by making what they want to buy. For example, no one was stopping these people from buying a Wilson PS ROK, but they didn't because they couldn't win with it, so Wilson had to discontinue it because sales were so poor. They bought the lighter, more powerful, bigger-headed racquets instead. The manufacturers are in the business of selling tennis racquets and will make whatever sells. That's the ugly truth and the bottom line.

 

[norcal]

So those of you who are holding the evil Wilson rep to the fire: Why not blame the players? They are just as responsible as the racket companies for misleading the public. When they play with PJ's (which I will never understand why anyone cares about) they are in effect lying to all those who watch them play. The rep may or may not know what the heck Fed, Serena and Venus are playing with. But Fed, Serena and Venus know EXACTLY what is in their hand yet they go out and mislead the public on a daily basis on a world stage.

So Andy - write your heroine Venus (assuming she uses a pj) a letter, or better yet tell her in person, you know, 'show her up' as the liar she is. And don't say the players don't have a choice, they are being paid big bucks to play with pj's so the public will be duped into buying the newest line of sticks. If the players had any integrity they would just play with their old frames with original paint (oh but wait those are modified too so you can never sell a frame tied to a pro player - oh my god who will save the children!) and decline endorsement money.

In conclusion, I am calling the local DA and ask them to file criminal fraud charges against all pros who use paint jobs. They deserve to be in jail just like the Enron guys (nice analagy to whomever brought that one up).

I would not recommend charging the Wilson rep though.

 

[Andy Zarzuela]

This has gotten to be alot more controversial than it was intended to be. All I asked was about Serena's powerholes on her new racquet. That's it. I actually never really was all that mad about the pros playing with sticks they prefer with the newest cosmetics. All I did was ask about Serena's power holes/slots on the top of her n3. Just was curious, because her racquet (and many other pros) is a little different from what you can get in stores. That's all I inquired about, and I am over it.
________
Classaction settlements

 

[35ft6]

In conclusion, I am calling the local DA and ask them to file criminal fraud charges against all pros who use paint jobs. They deserve to be in jail just like the Enron guys (nice analagy to whomever brought that one up).

You should do it. Contact the FTC. It's strange that so many people are defending Wilson and this sales rep, people who would otherwise be pissed if they were so blatantly lied to by somebody trying to sell them something. Oh well. I bet if I went to a car message board I could probably expect to read some car salesmen defending lying to prospective buyers in order to sell cars, because, you know, they have to feed their families.

Lets not forget that the man with his daughter works hard for his money, too, and he probably loves his daughter and doesn't want to disappoint her. "Serena's racket" is probably one of the most expensive ones Wilson sells right now, but the sales rep probably wouldn't recommend a cheaper, more appropriate racket because his bosses told him which rackets to push and how to push it. I think this dad deserves the right, as all consumers do, to base his purchase on non-misleading information. But fault me for a bleeding heart liberal, because I generally always take the side of the consumer. Psychics, weight loss companies, buy homes with no money down, TV evangelists, dishonest car mechanics, all those people just trying to make a living, I don't have sympathy for any of them.

Salespeople just LOVE an uninformed consumer, don't they? I saw a hidden camera thing on how car salesman treated a young girl in contrast to how they treated a middle aged man. We're talking thousands of dollars, which is the what the girl paid extra because they kept pressuring her into getting things she just "couldn't do without." And of course, the whole "I've gotta talk to my manager to see if we can make this deal... you're really busting my balls" routine. Of course, all lies, and more lies.

 

[raftermania]

This has gotten to be alot more controversial than it was intended to be. All I asked was about Serena's powerholes on her new racquet. That's it. I actually never really was all that mad about the pros playing with sticks they prefer with the newest cosmetics. All I did was ask about Serena's power holes/slots on the top of her n3. Just was curious, because her racquet (and many other pros) is a little different from what you can get in stores. That's all I inquired about, and I am over it.

Andy, it's nice that you've realized the uproar you've cause around here but let's not bend your story now! Or is this the actual truth? The title of your post initially was "I showed the Wilson rep up!! haha" If your intentions were just out of "curiosity" I don't think you would have made such a flamboyant thread title.

 

[charles_boey]

personally i don't like to be cheated in whatsoever manner. it makes me feel stupid and gullible. at the end of the day i try to make an honest living and i hope the guy sitting beside me in the subway does the same.

 

[IOP]

Wilson racquets are pieces of **** to begin with, their only good ones are 6.0 and 6.1

For years and years, they keep replicating those two racquets with different paint jobs, is what I think.

 

[matchpoints]

I have yet to see a response to my posts. Whomever was on Andy's side or Andy himself, can you please respond to my posts. I would like to see some logical reasoning here.

 

[35ft6]

I have yet to see a response to my posts. Whomever was on Andy's side or Andy himself, can you please respond to my posts. I would like to see some logical reasoning here.

But you're not being logical either. You're trying to have it both ways. On one hand, it seems you're trying to say IT'S NOT a black and white world, that sometimes lies are not only justifiable but necessary (i.e. okay for Wilson rep to lie to sell racket). Only to go on to imply that IT IS an all or nothing proposition, as if it WERE a black and white issue, by rhetorically questioning people as to whether or not they would tell kids santa claus is fake.

The answer is that YES, it is a gray world in which we live. And NO, it's not an all or nothing proposition. If you lie and tell your grandmother that her chicken was good, when in fact you hated it, it's not to say lying about chicken sets a precedent that later justifies lying to the police.

So to answer your question, NO, I would not tell my kids santa doesn't exist. I'm sure they'll have no problems finding that out on your own. And I might even tell them "they can accomplish anything they set their mind to" even though it's technically not true. But I WON'T lie to a guy I'm selling my car to, telling him it's perfectly fine when I know darn well the engine overheats after 20 minutes.

It's not an all or nothing proposition. Like all things in this world, it's a matter of magnitude. And context. There are good lies and bad lies. No absolutes.

 

[bamboo]

It's nice to cite a reliable source when you make a controversial claim - if you had had a hard copy of the ESPN article and the slaesman had said Hewitt used an RDX 500, take the dad aside. But based on random speculation by posters on a message board? You look like the guy telling someone at a record store to buy Elvis's records because "those in the know" realize he's still alive.

 

[noname]

35ft6. according to your car analogy the racquet a little girl is buying will break after 20 minutes of play. Shame on that rep for lying to her and telling her that the racquet he is selling is perfectly fine. And furthermore, if the girl just happened to be happy to play with Serena's racquet I would have loved to tell her that Serena's racquet is actually 1 oz heavier, has a different balance and has powerholes at 12 o'clock, and if she told me that she didn't care because this one looks exactly like her racquet I would take it out of her hands and immediatley destroy it. And then I would go home happy knowing that I have saved a child from the evil claws of Wilson.....And then I would get a life!

 

[matchpoints]

But you're not being logical either. You're trying to have it both ways. On one hand, it seems you're trying to say IT'S NOT a black and white world, that sometimes lies are not only justifiable but necessary (i.e. okay for Wilson rep to lie to sell racket). Only to go on to imply that IT IS an all or nothing proposition, as if it WERE a black and white issue, by rhetorically questioning people as to whether or not they would tell kids santa claus is fake.

The answer is that YES, it is a gray world in which we live. And NO, it's not an all or nothing proposition. If you lie and tell your grandmother that her chicken was good, when in fact you hated it, it's not to say lying about chicken sets a precedent that later justifies lying to the police.

So to answer your question, NO, I would not tell my kids santa doesn't exist. I'm sure they'll have no problems finding that out on your own. And I might even tell them "they can accomplish anything they set their mind to" even though it's technically not true. But I WON'T lie to a guy I'm selling my car to, telling him it's perfectly fine when I know darn well the engine overheats after 20 minutes.

It's not an all or nothing proposition. Like all things in this world, it's a matter of magnitude. And context. There are good lies and bad lies. No absolutes.

Below is a response you made to need2paint. I'm really confused now.
"

Originally Posted by need2paint
Andy,
You have nothing to apologize for. If anything, the Wilson rep should apologize to all the customers he has lied to. Lying is wrong regardless of why you do it.

Word. He lied, period. Good for you.

"

 

[donnyz89]

shocked how many reply to this...

 

[wtennis206]

this is why it's a bad idea to put sales reps on commission...

 

[need2paint]

shocked how many reply to this...

This is one of the few interesting topics on this board, because it goes way beyond tennis. This is an issue that encompasses a person's world view.

For the most part, the people defending the Wilson rep are not defending lying per se, but they are defending lying in a business context. And they are not saying that lying in a business context is a good thing, but that they consider it acceptable because of their belief that it is so common.

That is the issue here as I see it.

In a business context, deliberately misleading your customers is wrong and illegal. The fact that racquet companies do it doesn't make it right.

 

[TripleTennisBumB]

For the most part, the people defending the Wilson rep are not defending lying per se, but they are defending lying in a business context. And they are not saying that lying in a business context is a good thing, but that they consider it acceptable because of their belief that it is so common.

Yes, they are called Bush Republicans. Sorry, couldn't resist. Hey, can anyone suggest a replacement for the Yonex RDX 500 MP.

Thanks,

TripleTennisBumB

 

[racingdad23]

***Scenario 1***

Buyer - Hello I'm a Serena Williams Fan and I want to but a racquet just like hers.

Buyer - This one looks just like the one she uses.

Honest Rep - Yes it does

Buyer - Is it?

Honest Rep - Uh..no

Buyer - How about this one?

Honest Rep - No she doesn't use that one either.

Buyer - Well what about that one..its $250 surely that is the one she uses.

Honest Rep - Well actually...uh..no

Buyer - Well do you have the exact racquet that she plays with.

Honest Rep - No I'm sorry we dont have the "exact" racquet she plays with.

Buyer - Well I'm only interested in buying what my hero plays with.

<Buyer Leaves very dissapointed>

WHO LOST? ...Both of them

***Scenario 2***

Buyer - Hello I'm a Serena Williams Fan and I want to but a racquet just like hers.

Buyer - This one looks just like the one she uses.

Rep - Yes we have Serena's exact racquet here. This is the one she plays with every week.

Buyer - Thats great I'll take 3

WHO WON? ...Both of them

***Scenario 3***

Buyer - Hello I'm a Serena Williams Fan and I want to but a racquet just like hers.

Buyer - This one looks just like the one she uses.

Rep - I know it looks like it but to be honest Serena uses a custom racquet painted like this one so that Wilson can capitalize of the popularity of one of their sponsored players.

Buyer - Thats terrible and I love Serena but I cant possibly purchase products from a company that conducts such bussiness practices. I'll never purchase any of their products again!

WHO LOST? ...Wilson Manufacturing Co and the deceived customer.


***Scenario 4***

Buyer - Hello I'm a Serena Williams Fan and I want to but a racquet just like hers.

Buyer - This one looks just like the one she uses.

Rep - Yes we have Serena's exact racquet here. This is the one she plays with every week.

Buyer - Thats great I'll take 3

Smart ass young punk - Hey no way, he's ripping you off. Serena plays with a custom racquet there is no way you can get her exact racquet. He's a liar.

<Buyer upset over being mis-lead leaves>

WHO LOST? ...Everyone
Rep-cause he didnt make a sale
Customer-because they didnt get what they wanted
Smart ass young punk-because the salesman stomped his ass behind the building shortly after the buyer left.

WHAT"S MY POINT....? IF IT AINT YOUR MOTHER THEN ITS NOT ANY OF YOUR DAMN BUSSINESS.

 

[raftermania]

hahaha, we should make a video form of this and post it as a sticky so ppl don't go hasselling wilson reps again... I'll play the young serena williams fan.

but racingdad, what about the walmart situation? What if this serena williams fan went up to a walmart sales clerk and asked if that racquet with venus and serena on the racquet cover is the one that they use. What should the sales clerk say????

Here's the ideal answer:

"Hey don't ask me I don't know jacksquat about tennis, I could pretend to know tennis and say yes, she used that racquet to win wimbaldon, but I"m not going to because I'm downright honest and filled with moral integrity."

Here's the common answer:

"Yep!!! She uses it! See her picture on the cover?! That means she uses it! Whenever you see a player's picture on the racquet, that means they use it! Have a nice day and thanks for shopping at Walmart!!!"

The sad reality? The child will be happy with this false belief, remember: ignorance is bliss!!!!

 

[35ft6]

Below is a response you made to need2paint. I'm really confused now.
"

Originally Posted by need2paint
Andy,
You have nothing to apologize for. If anything, the Wilson rep should apologize to all the customers he has lied to. Lying is wrong regardless of why you do it.


"

No, you're right for pointing this out. I should have been more clear. Under the circumstance of him trying to make a sale, I think lying is wrong.

 

[35ft6]

35ft6. according to your car analogy the racquet a little girl is buying will break after 20 minutes of play.

But in my analogy the little girl could have found out within 20 minutes of play that she doesn't like the racket.

Shame on that rep for lying to her

Agree.

...and telling her that the racquet he is selling is perfectly fine.

Different people like different rackets. I would probably hate this stick, and you might too. So I'm not sure what you mean by "perfectly find." It won't break?

And furthermore, if the girl just happened to be happy to play with Serena's racquet I would have loved to tell her that Serena's racquet is actually 1 oz heavier, has a different balance and has powerholes at 12 o'clock, and if she told me that she didn't care because this one looks exactly like her racquet I would take it out of her hands and immediatley destroy it.

That's cool.

And then I would go home happy knowing that I have saved a child from the evil claws of Wilson.

Okay, the ends justify the means. I stick to my claim that everybody here would be pissed if they were so blatantly lied to during a sales pitch. The Wilson sales rep probably has the ability to give a way more accurate sales pitch, one based on the merits of the rackets availabe for sale. But it's just easier to say "it's Serena's racket of choice." Even if the Dad had little money, or the girl didn't play tennis thus could really make do with a less expensive racket, or whatever, he's going to push the expensive racket because that's what he's been told to do.

 

[matchpoints]

I still don't understand why we're still assuming that the Wilson rep actually knew what Serena plays with. I've personally known a Babolat rep that had no idea if some of the Pure Controls were paint jobs of the older pure controls or not. We all know that the older Pure Controls (non team versions) play heavier and are more flexible.

Given that, how can you possibly PROVE that he was blatantly lying? To top it off, can anyone here PROVE what Serena plays with? If not, then one shouldn't go challenging someone without knowing the facts himself.

The OP did something silly and there's no getting out of it.

 

[racingdad23]

I second the idea of a video but I want the role of the salesman in scenario #4

 

[need2paint]

Matchpoints,
This is from Andy's original post:

He mentioned how all the touring pros have their own customization that Wilson provides for them in their pro room; however, why is it before I even mentioned my skepticality...he said these frames were exactly what Serena Williams or Elena Likhovtseva, and Lindsay Davenport use! So after that paintjob coverup story, even if it was true, it still NOT THE SAME EXACT RACQUET AS IS IN STORES!

I don't know if Serena's racquet has a PJ or not, but I know she doesn't play with the exact same racquet one can buy at stores. The sales rep said it himself.

Also, it is the rep's responsibility to have knowlege about what he is selling. It is not your responsibility to make excuses for him if he doesn't.

 

[raftermania]

need2paint, why do you call yourself that? Everytime I see your name I ask myself that. Do you make paintjobs for racquets??? Paint houses for a living or something? I'm just really confused.

 

[need2paint]

need2paint, why do you call yourself that? Everytime I see your name I ask myself that. Do you make paintjobs for racquets??? Paint houses for a living or something? I'm just really confused.

Look at my avatar. It is a detail from the Sistine Chapel painted by Michelangelo. The hand of God giving life to Adam...










Actually,
I originally registered for this message board because I wanted advice on painting my Yonex RDX 500 all black. Loved that racquet but hated the cosmetics.

 

[csmith82177]

I'm gonna throw in with the salesperson here because I SELL USED CARS AAAAAAAAAAA and we get a bad rap. Actually I get people financed on used cars, but close enough. Here is an example of the exact same thing happening but without the outrage:

Nike "Air Jordans" - Does anyone believe Mike wore the EXACT SAME Shoes? Different sizes, different laces, probably custom-molded sole. etc.

Does anyone honestly think the pro's poke around and find the racket they like the most, then approach the companies for a sponsorship? Do you think Michael Jordan jumped higher in his Nike's and then decided to plug them? Serena probably got paid, then took the Wilson racket she played least poorly with and then chopped it up to her liking. It's called an "endorsement" and the player plugs the product that pays them the most to plug. Do you think Serena is lying to you when she tells you that Wilson rackets are the best, or that she truely believes it? When you watch an advertisement you rearrange your "ad filter" unconsciously to accept that the person plugging a product is not lying to you. Happens every time you watch a commercial. You have to be very, very young in our society to not have developed this filter.

I don't know how old the daughter was, but I bet that if she can walk and talk she already has one. She probably also knows the helpful Wilson rep is a salesperson. She probably knows that Serena is getting payed to play with the racket she is looking at. She doesn't care. Because "Serena Williams" is a brand just like "Wilson." And a more powerful one in a lot of ways. That is why there is such a thing as endosements.

So what is the difference between lying and advertising? Not much. That's why people don't like car salesmen. "I can't sell you the car for that price." You are not getting lied to, you are getting SOLD to. If you believe you are being lied to, then Tennis Warehouse lies to you everytime they advertise a price on a racket. They could sell the racket cheaper. But when it's $20 extra for a racket it gets people much less upset than when it's $200 or $2000 for a car, even if it's the same percentage profit. Negotiation is assumed when you buy a car or a house, why not when you buy a racket?

That's all except please don't flame on about "I bought a car and it had a bad water pump and the salesperson LIED to me and said there was nothing wrong when i bought it!!!!!!" Yes, that is actually a lie, and I'm not defending that. But make the distinction between a lie meant to obscure the truth and a "lie" that we all recognize as such but call an "advertisement" or an "endorsement." It is a sales attempt, not a lie, and you can tell the difference.

 

[raftermania]

My opinion of used car salesman has totally turned around 360. hehe, great opinons, great post.

 

[need2paint]

Nike "Air Jordans" - Does anyone believe Mike wore the EXACT SAME Shoes? Different sizes, different laces, probably custom-molded sole. etc.

I think I was about 10 years old when the Air Jordans came out. Yes, I did believe that Michael wore the exact same shoes and so did all of my schoolmates.

And yes, most people (who don't spend hours on internet chat boards) do believe that pros use the exact same racquet they are promoting.

When I was 12 I chose my very first racquet based on the fact that it said "Agassi" on it and it lead me to believe that it was the one Agassi used. There's no doubt that when the salesman said to the little girl, "This is the exact same racquet Serena uses..." she believed him, as would any little girl. If you can't accept this, you are in denial.

 

[HWN]

Not sure if this has been covered the reply posts because to be honest I didnt read every word of every reply. My opinion for want it's worth-

If thinking that they are playing with the racquet that their hero plays with gets one more young person to pick up this great game then pjs qualify as white lies similar to Santa, The Easter Bunny, and The Great Pumpkin. I know from raising three kids that no harm will be done.

I do know that when my yougest thought he was playing with Andy Roddicks racquet, his passion for the game and his desire to play magnified to the point of now having to drag him off the court.

It would be another thing altogether if the average joe could actually play with the frames the pros use. We all know that's not the case. And for all of you who feel slighted that you cant buy Rogers stick, you should count your blessings that you didnt spend big bucks on a racquet that you cant use.

H

 

[Andy Hewitt]

You shouldve beat him with a racquet!