I stopped by Fowkes' tennis complex while in Utah....

You data guys are awesome and I'm not diminishing the well written posts and analysis.

But, the question why not doi it because the rules allow it.....
To me the extreme example would be the following crazy hypothetical....say the little league world series doesn't require birth certificates so a group of 21 year olds win it all...and celebrate it as an accomplishment because they had to beat some teams of 18 year olds that weren't quite as good while also knowing they werent "right" for yhe competition, but the 21 year olds knew trhey would easily win from day one.

The managers of these out of age teams aren't as good as the players but pay the players.

As usual my curiosity is why do the 21 year olds even want to go through the motions and why do the managers want to do it?
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
You data guys are awesome and I'm not diminishing the well written posts and analysis.

But, the question why not doi it because the rules allow it.....
To me the extreme example would be the following crazy hypothetical....say the little league world series doesn't require birth certificates so a group of 21 year olds win it all...and celebrate it as an accomplishment because they had to beat some teams of 18 year olds that weren't quite as good while also knowing they werent "right" for yhe competition, but the 21 year olds knew trhey would easily win from day one.

The managers of these out of age teams aren't as good as the players but pay the players.

As usual my curiosity is why do the 21 year olds even want to go through the motions and why do the managers want to do it?
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That's an excellent thought exercise. It's great to have this philosophical component added to the quantitative analyses. Your example really is apples to apples-just substitute age for tennis experience, etc. And it highlights how ridiculous these captains' USTA league actions are.
 
schmke said:
The only thing that can be done is A) the player to get strikes and be DQ'd, or B) for someone to file NTRP grievances (can be other captains OR USTA staff) against players and have them upheld.
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This.

I would add a "C": Stop playing USTA league tennis and paying fees to support a broken system. And if you don't want to go that far, a "D": Keep complaining and raising awareness on forums like this, with your local league administrator, etc.; not sure if that is gonna get 'er done though.

It's getting worse really, not better. Having the Texas captain do what he did in 2023 and the Utah captain come back for more at 4.0--the levels with the bulk of players--are bold stuff.
 
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denoted said:
Your reasoning is a bit flawed about odds. First of all, if every team had a random distribution of all players, and all the teams were willing to go to Nationals, then the odds would be 1/1500. But a substantial portion of teams wouldn't go to Nationals even if they could win state and sectionals. There are probably more like 70-100 teams that a) are determined to go given the opportunity and b) have a chance of winning state/sectionals. You could probably look at section strength to make a determination within those groups for more informative odds at that point.

If there was 4.0 18 team in memory that started the season with no ambition other than to drink at after the local matches and ending up winning it, I'd love to hear about it, though I suspect there would a great deal of post-hoc reinterpretation.
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Excellent point. I should go back and look to see where each Nationals winning team ranked in my pre-season list to see what the lowest ranked team to win it was. That would be the effective requirement to be in Nationals contention.

Of course, teams with lots of self-rates aren't accurately reflected in pre-season lists ...
 
denoted said:
Your reasoning is a bit flawed about odds.
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I still think 0.000000000300763 tells one something :). I don't think USTA would want to advertise that to new captains signing up teams LOL. Come on over here to this forum for that tidbit future 4.0 dream chasers.
 
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So if I understand what your saying is that Utah team that won 3X has put another tank team together which reading past blogs he said he wouldn't do anymore. He said he was trying to move to 4.5 but sounds like they tanked at that level or couldn't compete. Seems like the way around it is to build a USTA facility like he did. I hope I can get a respective level to see all this action. I hear they blissed a TX team and others easily a couple years back that had some good 4.0 players 5-0. I'm surprised USTA doesn't ban or allow them a second year at this. Seems very unethical but if they guy is that insecure and needs to win at a lower level I guess he will.
 
TexasDadSon said:
So if I understand what your saying is that Utah team that won 3X has put another tank team together which reading past blogs he said he wouldn't do anymore. He said he was trying to move to 4.5 but sounds like they tanked at that level or couldn't compete. Seems like the way around it is to build a USTA facility like he did. I hope I can get a respective level to see all this action. I hear they blissed a TX team and others easily a couple years back that had some good 4.0 players 5-0. I'm surprised USTA doesn't ban or allow them a second year at this. Seems very unethical but if they guy is that insecure and needs to win at a lower level I guess he will.
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You've got the gist of it. It is noteworthy to me how you call it out like it is as unethical behavior. The more people we have coming out and saying this, the better as far as I am concerned.

I'd add from a quick analysis it seems he needed to "reload" with some ringers, particularly new self-rates, at 4.0 as the previous ones had been run through.

And I think you are right: Building a facility or doing something else extreme like that would probably be a measure one would need to take to pull off something to this extent.
 
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It'll be interesting in particular to see how the captain tries to get JW (18.2 WTN and 8 UTR with 88% reliability) matches in without getting DQ'ed. JW has recent scores posted on UTR splitting set with a 100% verified 8 UTR singles player, who was a recent D2 player, and beating a 100% verified 8 UTR in doubles.

The captain most certainly knows these are not results of a self-rate 4.0 and that he'll have to pull out some of his finest managing "tricks." Will "hiding" him at #3 doubles be enough with that high USTA strike threshold? Is the captain overconfident in his understanding of USTA administrators' inner workings? Is the captain prepared for the additional postings on this forum challenging his actions after having said he was done with 4.0?

It does not look like he is done with his roster yet. Stay tuned for updates.
 
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schmke said:
There is a mention in the rules about not playing at a level one knows is too low, but how is that to be determined by a player or captain? Sure it may be honorable for someone to say "4.0 is too low for me", but putting a player/captain in the position of having to do that is not a good solution as where does one draw the line? If player A opts to appeal up but player B who is equivalent doesn't, ...
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Thank you very much again for your very helpful analyses.

For your point I quoted, to me, this is where rules and ethics come in. USTA administrators made an attempt with this language to try to curb the very actions that have allowed this captain to be so "successful" with self-rated players with extensive tennis backgrounds who are in their early 20's and can take advantage of his resources. This captain is violating that language, plain and simple imho; USTA has not really responded.

USTA gives more specific language than "a mention in the rules about not playing at a level one knows is too low." I think this is important to emphasize. Here's the explanation from the USTA League Regulations handbook from your section that you refer to (https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/sections/pacific-northwest/pdfs/play/2022 National Regulations 12_17_21 (2).pdf):

"5. Players in the USTA League without a valid computer rating must self-rate in accordance with the General & Experienced Player Guidelines – Supplement to the NTRP Guidelines. Factors such as a player's on-court performance, tennis background, and any additional information should be considered in the self-rating decision. When players are rating themselves, if they question at which level they should play, they should place themselves in the higher NTRP level of play.

Note: Players who are good athletes or intend to spend a great deal of time taking lessons and practicing should be aware that their improvement may be significant enough to surpass their original self-rating during the local league season or championship play. To avoid NTRP Dynamic Disqualification, these players should enter at a higher NTRP level of play at the beginning of the local league season."

The captain must certainly know someone who is going to part of his extensive tennis training regime and has such strong recent results beating 5.0-level players (see above posts) should not self-rate at 4.0, yet he recruits such players who can "pass" the short self-questionnaire and "plays the numbers." It's a clear violation of ethics as well as rules to me and other Talk Tennis posters. I hope you can be more convincingly won you over on that if you are not already there. An ethics component, which is not written in the form of a survey question, comes into play when one has the opportunity to self-rate at a higher level to be in accordance with the guidelines presented above.

And, as you have noted, this captain does everything he can to avoid NTRP Dynamic Disqualification. For the record, each years of his repeat, he did have at least one DQ, something which most teams do not have. But he got others "through" that should have not self-rated at 4.0 by using his "tricks"--playing #3 doubles for a minimum number of matches in the regular season and then singles at Nationals, etc.

I think @FuzzyYellowBalls's recent post was an important way to think more about these types of actions from an ethical/philosophical perspective and not just by "the numbers." The numbers clearly show the story after all his cards are played after Nationals as well, year after year.

To me, the USTA language is clear that a borderline player should self-rate at the higher level just like any ball that one is not 100 percent sure about should be called in. And this captain must be almost 100 percent sure that these self-rate players are the types that will be the ones to get him that Nationals banner; it's not even close.

Fool me once, shame on this captain (and others of this ilk). Fool me three-plus times, shame on USTA. It's a bad story that is getting worse and worse.

USTA will do the easy thing like making their ratings secretive; they know people will cheat to win. But they won't do the harder thing of really stopping these people violating their regulations.

Again, I encourage USTA administrators and activists looking for answers to read your excellent posts, "Possible solutions to grossly above level teams at USTA League Nationals" and "Introducing the 'Shenanigans Score,' a metric to identify teams that may be gaming the system in USTA League play"(https://computerratings.blogspot.co...00-07:00&max-results=7&start=14&by-date=false). I would add some bullets for USTA administrators to get more involved through some "common sense," partially qualitative measures with an ethical component, which would prevent players like JW (18.2 WTN and 8 UTR with 88% reliability) to play a year as a self-rate at 4.0. Of course, more clearly-delineated rules (with numbers) and enforcement would be good, but ethical considerations may not always fit so cleanly.
 
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A
Racquet Scientist said:
Thank you very much again for your very helpful analyses.

For your point I quoted, to me, this is where rules and ethics come in. USTA administrators made an attempt with this language to try to curb the very actions that have allowed this captain to be so "successful" with self-rated players with extensive tennis backgrounds who are in their early 20's and can take advantage of his resources. This captain is violating that language, plain and simple imho; USTA has not really responded.

USTA gives more specific language than "a mention in the rules about not playing at a level one knows is too low." I think this is important to emphasize. Here's the explanation from the USTA League Regulations handbook from your section that you refer to (https://www.usta.com/content/dam/usta/sections/pacific-northwest/pdfs/play/2022 National Regulations 12_17_21 (2).pdf):

"5. Players in the USTA League without a valid computer rating must self-rate in accordance with the General & Experienced Player Guidelines – Supplement to the NTRP Guidelines. Factors such as a player's on-court performance, tennis background, and any additional information should be considered in the self-rating decision. When players are rating themselves, if they question at which level they should play, they should place themselves in the higher NTRP level of play.

Note: Players who are good athletes or intend to spend a great deal of time taking lessons and practicing should be aware that their improvement may be significant enough to surpass their original self-rating during the local league season or championship play. To avoid NTRP Dynamic Disqualification, these players should enter at a higher NTRP level of play at the beginning of the local league season."

The captain must certainly know someone who is going to part of his extensive tennis training regime and has such strong recent results beating 5.0-level players (see above posts) should not self-rate at 4.0, yet he recruits such players who can "pass" the short self-questionnaire and "plays the numbers." It's a clear violation of ethics as well as rules to me and other Talk Tennis posters. I hope you can be more convincingly won you over on that if you are not already there. An ethics component, which is not written in the form of a survey question, comes into play when one has the opportunity to self-rate at a higher level to be in accordance with the guidelines presented above.

And, as you have noted, this captain does everything he can to avoid NTRP Dynamic Disqualification. For the record, each years of his repeat, he did have at least one DQ, something which most teams do not have. But he got others "through" that should have not self-rated at 4.0 by using his "tricks"--playing #3 doubles for a minimum number of matches in the regular season and then singles at Nationals, etc.

I think @FuzzyYellowBalls's recent post was an important way to think more about these types of actions from an ethical/philosophical perspective and not just by "the numbers." The numbers clearly show the story after all his cards are played after Nationals as well, year after year.

To me, the USTA language is clear that a borderline player should self-rate at the higher level just like any ball that one is not 100 percent sure about should be called in. And this captain must be almost 100 percent sure that these self-rate players are the types that will be the ones to get him that Nationals banner; it's not even close.

Fool me once, shame on this captain (and others of this ilk). Fool me three-plus times, shame on USTA. It's a bad story that is getting worse and worse.

USTA will do the easy thing like making their ratings secretive; they know people will cheat to win. But they won't do the harder thing of really stopping these people violating their regulations.

Again, I encourage USTA administrators and activists looking for answers to read your excellent posts, "Possible solutions to grossly above level teams at USTA League Nationals" and "Introducing the 'Shenanigans Score,' a metric to identify teams that may be gaming the system in USTA League play"(https://computerratings.blogspot.co...00-07:00&max-results=7&start=14&by-date=false). I would add some bullets for USTA administrators to get more involved through some "common sense," partially qualitative measures with an ethical component, which would prevent players like JW (18.2 WTN and 8 UTR with 88% reliability) to play a year as a self-rate at 4.0. Of course, more clearly-delineated rules (with numbers) and enforcement would be good, but ethical considerations may not always fit so cleanly.
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All excellent points.

I agree rules should be changed/added as I note in the post you kindly linked to. It is what to do in the absence of rule changes that is the question.

My point in the post you responded to is that without rules and relying on the honor or ethics of the players captain is hard to rely on. As long as there is one captain out there willing to push the envelope, other captains will feel compelled to do the same to compete. All the captains that may do this are arguably violating some of what you quote above, but those are subjective and require interpretation, so if the USTA never enforces those clauses, asking captains to self-enforce and establish some arbitrary level/criteria of their own that they enforce on their recruiting is problematic.

I think the USTA should enforce these clauses, this can perhaps be a first step towards formally making some of my suggestions actual regulations. For example, while the self-rating guidelines and questionnaire don't use WTN today, a grievance filed against a 4.0S with an 18.2 WTN could be upheld based on that WTN. This still requires that someone get a grievance committee to look at and review it, which means a captain filing a grievance or talking with a coordinator who themselves can file a grievance (and I think they should in some cases). But I'd hope it is well within the purview of a grievance committee to consider a player's WTN even if everything else about a player's history technically allows a 4.0S.

If the USTA won't/hasn't done anything to suspend/sanction the "Texas Tankers", whose repeated match tanking behavior is more egregious in my mind, it is hard to see them doing anything about self-rates that are technically valid by the current rules. In the case of self-rates, they seem to want to trust the 3-strike DQ system and the recent "stiffening" requirements on the minimum matches for self-rates (doesn't go far enough IMHO).

But the handling of self-rates goes back to an earlier post I had. If adding a regulation is perceived to raise the bar on who can or will be interested in participating, it is going to have a hard time being implemented. Would this 18.2 WTN player join USTA League and play if they were required to self-rate higher? I'd like to think they would, but perhaps not. Now one may say that league play would be more equitable and better if the player was required to be a 4.5 (or higher?) or not play, but that doesn't seem to be the USTA's priority unfortunately.

I would be interested to see what would happen if someone filed a grievance against the 18.2 WTN player. That would be a really good test of the system and willingness of the USTA to promote fair play.
 
"Honor" or maybe "honest reflection on what is right" will be required, although USTA could try something too it would be worked aro8nd eventually by clever captains.

Another hurdle I imagine is someone willing to mess with a USTA region that isn't really their section or national USTA reaching down because I imagine Fowkes like most super captains are well connected in theirocal USTA politics/administration.

But, actually, it's almost more fun to watch the hilarious attempts to sandbag then to imagine them being gone.
 
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Racquet Scientist said:
Can anyone in the Intermountain area get some footage this January 14? Audio would suffice.

Member Perks - Sunpro Tennis & Pickleball Club

sunproclub.com sunproclub.com

WE HOPE YOU WILL JOIN US FOR OUR EXCITING ANNUAL EVENTS!

JANUARY
FREE TENNIS SEMINAR
Saturday 14th @ 5 pm, Mezzanine
“Recruiting League Tennis Players & Playing the Numbers”
Presented by Doug Fowkes
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Where I live, January 14th is a Sunday (it's last year's calendar).
 
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tennis3 said:
Where I live, January 14th is a Sunday (it's last year's calendar).
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Thank you for noting this. I guess someone needs to contact them to verify the date. It says on the current website that this seminar is annual. I hope we can get coverage of this year's event. I doubt the content has changed much based on his current roster.
 
Racquet Scientist said:
Thank you for noting this. I guess someone needs to contact them to verify the date. It says on the current website that this seminar is annual. I hope we can get coverage of this year's event. I doubt the content has changed much based on his current roster
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It states on another page that one has to actually be a SunPro member to attend actually. I guess he doesn't want moles.

Adult Tennis Events - Sunpro Tennis & Pickleball Club

We offer Tennis and Pickleball Lessons & Clinics for every player regardless of your age, athletic background, or experience.
sunproclub.com sunproclub.com

FREE CAPTAINS SEMINAR​

January 14th (Sat) 5pm, Mezzanine Lounge​

A SUNPRO CLUB MEMBERS PERK​

This seminar is geared towards all our amazing captains and prospective captains. It’s a recruiting seminar to learn all the tips and tricks used by Doug Fowkes to help build a successful team and analyze your opposing teams. We want all our teams at Sunpro Club to be a success both as winning teams and as a united team that players love to be a part of.
Cost: Free


2022 Sunpro Club Ladies Tennis Ladder
 
schmke said:
A

All excellent points.

I agree rules should be changed/added as I note in the post you kindly linked to. It is what to do in the absence of rule changes that is the question.

My point in the post you responded to is that without rules and relying on the honor or ethics of the players captain is hard to rely on. As long as there is one captain out there willing to push the envelope, other captains will feel compelled to do the same to compete. All the captains that may do this are arguably violating some of what you quote above, but those are subjective and require interpretation, so if the USTA never enforces those clauses, asking captains to self-enforce and establish some arbitrary level/criteria of their own that they enforce on their recruiting is problematic.

I think the USTA should enforce these clauses, this can perhaps be a first step towards formally making some of my suggestions actual regulations. For example, while the self-rating guidelines and questionnaire don't use WTN today, a grievance filed against a 4.0S with an 18.2 WTN could be upheld based on that WTN. This still requires that someone get a grievance committee to look at and review it, which means a captain filing a grievance or talking with a coordinator who themselves can file a grievance (and I think they should in some cases). But I'd hope it is well within the purview of a grievance committee to consider a player's WTN even if everything else about a player's history technically allows a 4.0S.

If the USTA won't/hasn't done anything to suspend/sanction the "Texas Tankers", whose repeated match tanking behavior is more egregious in my mind, it is hard to see them doing anything about self-rates that are technically valid by the current rules. In the case of self-rates, they seem to want to trust the 3-strike DQ system and the recent "stiffening" requirements on the minimum matches for self-rates (doesn't go far enough IMHO).

But the handling of self-rates goes back to an earlier post I had. If adding a regulation is perceived to raise the bar on who can or will be interested in participating, it is going to have a hard time being implemented. Would this 18.2 WTN player join USTA League and play if they were required to self-rate higher? I'd like to think they would, but perhaps not. Now one may say that league play would be more equitable and better if the player was required to be a 4.5 (or higher?) or not play, but that doesn't seem to be the USTA's priority unfortunately.

I would be interested to see what would happen if someone filed a grievance against the 18.2 WTN player. That would be a really good test of the system and willingness of the USTA to promote fair play.
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As always, excellent analysis. It's great to exchange ideas with you and others on here.

Personally, I see this captain's actions just as egregious as repeated match tanking given the level of violations. As you note, when it comes to self-rating, two wrongs don't make a right, and USTA needs to step in more to stop the inappropriate self-rating. You provide excellent suggestions to help with this.

A big reason for my stance is that the end result is the same: One ends up in both scenarios with players two to three levels above level playing with people they should not be. In the case of the Utah captain, say you have a 3.5 playing up at 4.0 or a low-4.0. And then you have these captains' ringers who are really 5.0's playing against them. That's up to a three-level difference. In addition to the "winning" aspect, people are playing a sport in a competitive situation, and someone could get injured. A 3.5 or low 4.0 playing in that match may not prepared to handle the pace, a ball could hit them in the eye, etc. USTA ends up in both scenarios with something akin to the Wild West going on in their leagues. Almost anything goes with regards to who gets to be on the court. The 3.5 playing up and the low-4.0 are just trying to get a good match in against a 4.0, not against 5.0 players that they are not prepared for.

I think improved rules are important, but a level of honor, i.e., ethics, is also important. In serious matches, you have a chair umpire who has to make judgment calls like when someone goes too far with language, etc. The rules are not exact for everything. Interpretation is required for instances like determining what handicap a player should have. USTA administrators could serve like chair umpires for things like self-rating, using the many available resources. People need to be held accountable.

Of course, it's trickier when someone does not have a fresh 18.2 WTN, 8 UTR who is trying to pass as a 4.0 self-rate. This captain has another self-rate who was in the 500's on tennisrecruiting.net (which is usually associated with a 5.0-level player), has numerous articles about his tennis exploits, etc. He just doesn't have recent matches to show his current level. Perhaps he is rusty, but a minimum 4.5 rating seems appropriate. He's a harder case without direct recent evidence, but who said being a USTA administrator should be an easy job. That player had higher rankings than the 18.2 guy, and the end result may be he is even more out of level.
 
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I don't even blink at UTR 8s playing 4.0 any more. And there was ample discussion about this team having a guy completely destroying an eastern UTR 8 4.0 at nationals. Locally we had a guy with ATP points playing 4.0 and even the perennial sandbaggers complained - and nothing was done anyway.

Way up thread someone talked about league participation not being affected by this stuff. What I'm seeing is that it might not be affecting the total number of players, but there's clearly efforts to play down, so the end result is almost nonexistent 4.5 leagues, shrinking participation at 4.0, and log jams at 3.5 and 3.0. Or longtime tennis players leaving to dominate pickleball.

I'm one of those people that thinks the USTA is playing with fire, and won't ever do anything about any of this until players leave for pickleball or leagues that aren't as easily gamed.
 
schmke said:
I would be interested to see what would happen if someone filed a grievance against the 18.2 WTN player. That would be a really good test of the system and willingness of the USTA to promote fair play.
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Agree it would be interesting, but seems unlikely to be worth the effort.

First, the 18.2 WTN is not "blue-checked" and appears to be based only on match results from four years ago.

Second, even if it was a more confident rating, using it to uphold a grievance would require USTA to take a quantitative stance on how WTN relates to NTRP. It's hard to see them being willing to that - it would open a Pandora's box of addressing problems with WTN. Not sure, but it's probably possible to find legit 4.0C players who have WTN that good, given the crazy variance that has been observed.

Third, using his good UTR as a criterion would also be problematic for USTA, especially because his UTR is based on results in events that were not captured by WTN and were not against NTRP-rated opponents. They would also have to officially acknowledge that UTR is relevant to NTRP and draw a quantitative boundary - unlikely, right?
 
TennisOTM said:
Agree it would be interesting, but seems unlikely to be worth the effort.

First, the 18.2 WTN is not "blue-checked" and appears to be based only on match results from four years ago.

Second, even if it was a more confident rating, using it to uphold a grievance would require USTA to take a quantitative stance on how WTN relates to NTRP. It's hard to see them being willing to that - it would open a Pandora's box of addressing problems with WTN. Not sure, but it's probably possible to find legit 4.0C players who have WTN that good, given the crazy variance that has been observed.

Third, using his good UTR as a criterion would also be problematic for USTA, especially because his UTR is based on results in events that were not captured by WTN and were not against NTRP-rated opponents. They would also have to officially acknowledge that UTR is relevant to NTRP and draw a quantitative boundary - unlikely, right?
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It is unlikely that they'd use UTR alone and acknowledge it, but it could perhaps be supporting detail backing up a WTN based grievance. And I'd certainly hope the USTA is or gets comfortable using WTN as part of self-rating for new players. Your point about this player's WTN being based on dated results is the challenge here though.
 
Racquet Scientist said:
This.

I would add a "C": Stop playing USTA league tennis and paying fees to support a broken system. And if you don't want to go that far, a "D": Keep complaining and raising awareness on forums like this, with your local league administrator, etc.; not sure if that is gonna get 'er done though.

It's getting worse really, not better. Having the Texas captain do what he did in 2023 and the Utah captain come back for more at 4.0--the levels with the bulk of players--are bold stuff.
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What did the Texas captain do in 2023? I’m assuming you are referring to NOHO? What does USTA let Utah get away with this?
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
Very nice facility with maybe 6 indoors (I might be off by one or two here) and 5 outdoor courts, with 1 tennis court indoors divided into 4 pickeball courts. Everyone is very nice there too. Naturally, like any other facility the banners are displayed with pride from USTA success. No frills on the locker rooms , but awesome courts and lighting etc.

I also played at a couple other Utah / Park City / SLC locations. I decided to do a survey of the men and women playing there, to my surprise, no one knew A) of the success of the SunPro team(s) ,nor of Fowkes himself, but they knew of the SunPro club of course. The teaching pros knew him, one mentioned Fowkes carrying around a laptop during interclub competition to calculate the best lineups. (Honestly though he might have been conducting business since Fowkes is a successful/busy bidness man).

I'm sure the players who play 4.0 league know the SunPro teams, but it was interesting that the local general tennis players had no idea about any of it.
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So I have become obsessed with this blog and comments. I look forward to reading these often. I started doing some research and data on the Fowkes guy and then I did some further research on USTA, regional leaders USTA and facilities. This was an interesting find. I then took this data of Utah and Texas and compared. I then reached out to a friend of a friend that is in USTA Orlando. Here are some results I was given. He is younger but his information shared was matching up to what everyone is saying.

Let’s start with Utah. They are a USTA regional facility. The regional leader wants this team to win because it makes him look good. They encourage this behavior and have told Utah Fowkes they will do everything they can to not DQ players to help them win. They share for the coach to get the best young kids you can we will help. USTA Orlando is aware of this but since he is not doing it at all levels they have not hammered down on them and continue to look the other way. He wasn’t able to win at 4.5 this year which made Orlando happy and showed he is not as good as he thinks he is. They also shared they have numerous complaints on the Utah families that attend nationals and behavior during matches.

Texas is a little different. The person out of Austin area that handles appeals and DQ is named Todd. He has better relationships with the Houston area and helps them more than any other section. Over the last 5 years he has Disqualified Dallas players over Houston players 4 to 1. If Dallas area puts a really good team together that has 2 self rates or more 1 will be DQ’d everytime before sectionals to give Houston/NOHO at an advantage. He has also manually disqualified Dallas players and other regions double vs Houston as a whole. They have 19 sections in Texas. For a team to make it out of Texas is harder than winning nationals if they are not from Houston. They have this data but he has been with them for some time and they are will not make any changes with him until he retires.

Here are other regions that play the game very well. CA both NO and SO. Middle States. Florida.
 
You guys don’t want to play Open tournaments for your age group and instead want to play in leagues with restricted levels that have opaque definitions of the lower and upper boundaries for each level that are set by an USTA computer. Then you want to argue with the USTA that somehow you know which level a player should play at better than the USTA and its computer does. It sounds insane to me as you’ve chosen to play in a system with opaque rules (the USTA doesn’t publish dynamic ratings, match ratings etc.) and then want to argue that you know better what a player’s rating is than the only organization that has any authority to set the boundaries for each rating. And the USTA even says they change the boundaries every year as they choose at what dynamic rating a player will get bumped up or down each year based on the number of people at that level in a region or across the country. So, there is no set level for each rating over multiple years where an independent observer can say the USTA is wrong about their rating for any particular level.

It is a dictatorial system and if you don’t like it, don‘t participate in it.
 
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NumbersGuy said:
If you think Todd is corrupt, you should probably step away from the keyboard.
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Never did I say that. I’ve never met him or spoken to him. Don’t even know who he is. Im new to USTA. I find these blogs pretty entertaining and since I’m new, started diving in as I was buying a bunch of stuff from ************** and found these blogs. This was information provided to me. If the data says it I would be concerned though that favoritism is part of it. I would hope USTA wouldn’t have anyone that is corrupt as you say it working for them. Like I said way previous when I signed up it registered me a 3.0 never playing but I moved up to 3.5 for more challenge as I’m young, athletic and know I can continue to grow. I would rather be on an average 3.5 team getting better than a top 3.0 team not playing but knowing I’m better than them.
 
For me if I was USTA I would make it where only computer rated players could compete in sectionals and nationals. This would help eliminate getting a player for one year to say he is a lower level. Make him prove it for a year or two then computer rate them to be eligible. Seems easiest way to keep some of the cheating or sand bagging from happening over a short period of time. If someone is willing to play down and do it for a year or two that’s tough to stop.
 
TexasDadSon said:
For me if I was USTA I would make it where only computer rated players could compete in sectionals and nationals. This would help eliminate getting a player for one year to say he is a lower level. Make him prove it for a year or two then computer rate them to be eligible. Seems easiest way to keep some of the cheating or sand bagging from happening over a short period of time. If someone is willing to play down and do it for a year or two that’s tough to stop.
Click to expand...
This would address some of the player's Fowkes has on his rosters, but wouldn't address teams like the Texas 3.5 teams from last year.

Also, the USTA is afraid that instituting a rule like this would discourage new players from joining USTA, and given the participation numbers are already shrinking, is probably a hard sell right now.
 
socallefty said:
You guys don’t want to play Open tournaments for your age group and instead want to play in leagues with restricted levels that have opaque definitions of the lower and upper boundaries for each level that are set by an USTA computer. Then you want to argue with the USTA that somehow you know which level a player should play at better than the USTA and its computer does. It sounds insane to me as you’ve chosen to play in a system with opaque rules (the USTA doesn’t publish dynamic ratings, match ratings etc.) and then want to argue that you know better what a player’s rating is than the only organization that has any authority to set the boundaries for each rating. And the USTA even says they change the boundaries every year as they choose at what dynamic rating a player will get bumped up or down each year based on the number of people at that level in a region or across the country. So, there is no set level for each rating over multiple years where an independent observer can say the USTA is wrong about their rating for any particular level.

It is a dictatorial system and if you don’t like it, don‘t participate in it.
Click to expand...
I have to agree with this.

There is no such thing as cheating in usta ratings. But 99% of players and captains are playing “within the spirit of the rules”, and then there are those that are less innocent.
 
schmke said:
This would address some of the player's Fowkes has on his rosters, but wouldn't address teams like the Texas 3.5 teams from last year.

Also, the USTA is afraid that instituting a rule like this would discourage new players from joining USTA, and given the participation numbers are already shrinking, is probably a hard sell right now.
Click to expand...
Was the Texas team all computer rated? Your comments make sense. Pickleball is easier to learn and no real training or lessons needed. Tennis is a pure sport and why I’m learning it more and more and want to get better at it. Someday maybe I will be on a team like you all talk about. Lol. I am moving to Houston so maybe I will find one. LOL
 
TexasDadSon said:
So I have become obsessed with this blog and comments. I look forward to reading these often. I started doing some research and data on the Fowkes guy and then I did some further research on USTA, regional leaders USTA and facilities. This was an interesting find. I then took this data of Utah and Texas and compared. I then reached out to a friend of a friend that is in USTA Orlando. Here are some results I was given. He is younger but his information shared was matching up to what everyone is saying.

Let’s start with Utah. They are a USTA regional facility. The regional leader wants this team to win because it makes him look good. They encourage this behavior and have told Utah Fowkes they will do everything they can to not DQ players to help them win. They share for the coach to get the best young kids you can we will help. USTA Orlando is aware of this but since he is not doing it at all levels they have not hammered down on them and continue to look the other way. He wasn’t able to win at 4.5 this year which made Orlando happy and showed he is not as good as he thinks he is. They also shared they have numerous complaints on the Utah families that attend nationals and behavior during matches.

Texas is a little different. The person out of Austin area that handles appeals and DQ is named Todd. He has better relationships with the Houston area and helps them more than any other section. Over the last 5 years he has Disqualified Dallas players over Houston players 4 to 1. If Dallas area puts a really good team together that has 2 self rates or more 1 will be DQ’d everytime before sectionals to give Houston/NOHO at an advantage. He has also manually disqualified Dallas players and other regions double vs Houston as a whole. They have 19 sections in Texas. For a team to make it out of Texas is harder than winning nationals if they are not from Houston. They have this data but he has been with them for some time and they are will not make any changes with him until he retires.

Here are other regions that play the game very well. CA both NO and SO. Middle States. Florida.
Click to expand...
Wow, that's amazing information and I had a feeling, not that strong a feeling, but a feeling that if you build a tennis facility and get the community to chip in tax dollars, USTA isn't going to be exactly excited about messing in the playground so to speak. TX is strange though, I always thought Dallas had a fair shot at cheating haha, really, based on tanking etc.
 
socallefty said:
You guys don’t want to play Open tournaments for your age group and instead want to play in leagues with restricted levels that have opaque definitions of the lower and upper boundaries for each level that are set by an USTA computer. Then you want to argue with the USTA that somehow you know which level a player should play at better than the USTA and its computer does. It sounds insane to me as you’ve chosen to play in a system with opaque rules (the USTA doesn’t publish dynamic ratings, match ratings etc.) and then want to argue that you know better what a player’s rating is than the only organization that has any authority to set the boundaries for each rating. And the USTA even says they change the boundaries every year as they choose at what dynamic rating a player will get bumped up or down each year based on the number of people at that level in a region or across the country. So, there is no set level for each rating over multiple years where an independent observer can say the USTA is wrong about their rating for any particular level.

It is a dictatorial system and if you don’t like it, don‘t participate in it.
Click to expand...
No, not me, I don't even do age restricted primarily, so don't say "you guys" lol, me and I think most others here just like to look and laugh or be curious about human behavior, and since we play tennis, this crazy behavior happens to be even more interesting to us.
 
NumbersGuy said:
If you think Todd is corrupt, you should probably step away from the keyboard.
Click to expand...
I can not say Todd is corrupt at all, but if he has been in charge for more than 10 years, he certainly hasn't put the hammer down on some TX behavior, but he probably has his hands tied by USTA as well. I mean some of the activity has been equally wacky as UTAH in Houston, although it seems Dallas has gotten the bulk of DQs.
 
TexasDadSon said:
Was the Texas team all computer rated? Your comments make sense. Pickleball is easier to learn and no real training or lessons needed. Tennis is a pure sport and why I’m learning it more and more and want to get better at it. Someday maybe I will be on a team like you all talk about. Lol. I am moving to Houston so maybe I will find one. LOL
Click to expand...
The majority of the Texas team were bump downs or appeal downs from 4.0. I think the 18+ team had a couple self-rates, but the 40+ team may not have.
 
This is Doug Fowkes, the Utah Captain. Fuzzy Yellow Balls—thanks for visiting the club! Next time, please give some advance notice, and I’ll set you up with a fun match or two.

I know you guys are trying to improve league tennis by all your discussions and debates…but all the wild speculation and negativity is not helpful…and as a result (in my opinion), largely gets dismissed by the USTA. The discussion would be best served by staying positive and objective in your writing. (I think TennisOTM and Schmke generally do a pretty good job at staying objective.)

Fuzzy Yellow Balls…you were surprised when none of the other Utah clubs felt the same negativity that you feel towards us. This is because all my players legitimately start inside the 4.0 range. No one is above level in the beginning. All my players self-rate 100% honestly and accurately. If the system assigns them a higher rating than 4.0, I refer them to the 4.5 team. Simple as that. There is no funny business going on. There are no rules broken.

BR and JW were specifically mentioned in these posts: They answered the self-rating questions honestly and were given 4.0 ratings by the system. Let’s look closer at both of these players:

BR was a one-star rated player on TennisRecruiting.net. His best end-of-year junior ranking was #77 in the Intermountain Section. His entire tennis experience consisted of just 27 high school matches. This was 5 years ago. He is clearly inside the 4.0 range.

JW was also a one-star rated player on TennisRecruiting.net. His best end-of-year ranking as a Junior was #87 in the Intermountain Section. He played 173 matches during his high school career. He lost more than he won with an 85/88 win/loss record. This puts him clearly in the 4.0 range. An 8 UTR was mentioned in one of these posts. UTR clearly states that JW did not play enough (UTR) matches for this rating to be 100% reliable. And the post failed to mention that JW lost 3 of these matches against UTR 8 players. In fact, JW’s score in one of these matches was 0-6, 1-6...winning only a single game. And the doubles match that JW won was with an NTRP 5.0 doubles partner.

The posts about BR and JW are a perfect example of taking only part of the truth and twisting it to fit your narrative. If you want to be credible…please present the whole truth--honestly and accurately.

But forget all the wild speculation. Here’s what is really happening—directly from the source: None of my players start out above level in the beginning. They improve gradually over time. Hence, our matches with other teams are not extremely mismatched (as Fuzzy Yellow Balls found out from talking to other local Utah clubs). We had our first team match this past Saturday….and barely won the match in a close a 3rd set tie breaker.

My players improve gradually over time, largely due to our organized and aggressive training program. This training program ramps up over time. We start out in January with 2 team practices per week, then we increase that up to 4 team practices in the Spring and Summer. We add in professional doubles and singles instruction as well. In addition, our highly organized tennis ladder and private tournaments allow our players to get more than triple the match-time over what is offered by the USTA. Many of these matches are against higher level players...which is the fastest way to improve.

We don’t sandbag our way to the top…we “earn” our way to the top, with legitimate hard work and dedication. If any other team does more than we do…then they disserve to win Nationals instead of us! Wouldn’t you agree that the team (and captain) who puts in the most time and works the hardest should win Nationals? ...or at least be a serious contender? Sandbagger teams and captains don’t put in nearly as much time, or work nearly as hard as we do. That’s the difference.

I recently saw a film called “Boys in the Boat”. It’s currently in theaters. If you want to understand our team and why we do what we do…watch that movie! There are a lot of parallels in that movie to our team. That will give you a more complete understanding of why I captain these teams year after year. I get the same feelings of joy and accomplishment that the captain (coach) in that movie felt.

Here is the bottom line: I spend countless hours building up players and teams. I’ve built a nice tennis facility for the Utah tennis community at a huge commitment of time and expense. My wife and I really do as much as we possibly can to promote the game of tennis. In fact, a couple years ago, we were given an award by the Utah Tennis Association for “Growing the Game” of tennis here in Utah. So if anyone of you believes they have done more to promote the game of tennis…please…tell us about it.
 
Last edited:
UTAH said:
Fuzzy Yellow Balls…you were surprised when none of the other Utah clubs felt the same negativity that you feel towards us. This is because all my players legitimately start inside the 4.0 range. No one is above level in the beginning. All my players self-rate 100% honestly and accurately. If the system assigns them a higher rating than 4.0, I refer them to the 4.5 team. Simple as that. There is no funny business going on. There are no rules broken.


But forget all the wild speculation. Here’s what is really happening—directly from the source: None of my players start out above level in the beginning. They improve gradually over time. Hence, our matches with other teams are not extremely mismatched (as Fuzzy Yellow Balls found out from talking to other local Utah clubs). We had our first team match this past Saturday….and barely won the match in a close a 3rd set tie breaker.
Click to expand...
Doug! Thanks for chiming in. Your club is awesome and certainly if I ever moved to UTAH I'd join it, especially since it is in that nice nice area.

You need to do a documentary on your teams and tennis, maybe just youtube or a mini-series!

I would like to be specific on my statements if they were unclear. I didn't meet anyone who had good or bad feelings toward your team, the players honestly didn't know about you or your team. They didn't know the 3 time champion team plays in SLC or is amongst them, which I did find a bit strange, but oh well. These players were from 3.5-4.5 level. Certainly you can take that as not negative or no negativity toward your team, but it was more ignorance? Which I guess I can say would mean not many are interested or aware in your own leagues Utah. Perhaps some direct competitors might be or if there is a team or captain that comes in 2nd to your teams over and over, they might "know" more.

Now, the club professionals knew of you, that was true. They weren't negative, they just described you as competitive.

I believe your players improve weekly or monthly. I'm not sure you know how to judge them accurately as in level when they start, you might think you do, but i's not easy to really judge someone's tennis level that accurately.

I also believe your players answer the questions honestly and you don't break any rules .

But, are you trying to do whatever you can to win within the rules without thinking at all about if it's within the spirit of the rules or thinking is this player really a 4.0 or would they get better at tennis faster if they just played up at 4.5 even with the chance to self rate at 4.0 or play above a 4.0c they earned. Would you steer a really good player down that path ? Would you tell them to just play up? Have you ever held good players back in the regular season from singles or multiple matches to help preserve the 4.0 rating?

All of these kinds of things are within the rules and sure you won't be the only one doing them, but if you are, that's not exactly just letting players improve naturally and then ooops, winning titles.
 
I haven’t followed the Utah story, but it appears we have a captain that is following the rules while also doing the things it takes to compete for national titles.

I strongly believe @UTAH shouldn’t have to feel guilty about recruiting young college-age players for ntrp handicapped usta leagues and having them self-rate at a level that gives them a chance to win, and then being pro-active about scheduling practice activities to help them improve.

This is called competing. Just because the majority of captains aren’t taking advantage of these avenues for building really strong teams for the level doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be allowed.

I disagree with the notion that has been suggested that self-rating a player low will stunt development. On the contrary, I would think that competing on a team advancing to nationals would feed a self-reinforcing feedback loop that fuels improvement. Winning is fun. Conversely, if a player joins a usta league for the first time and loses almost every match, it could deter him from wanting to continue with usta league play.

In most cases, when I’ve known players in this category that got self-rated as 4.0 shortly after high school or college by a captain who recruited them to a team, these players end up having a passion for tennis and end up being bumped to 4.5 and in some cases make it to 5.0 within a few years.

As for my attitude toward self-rated league opponents who are obviously over the usual for the level? On the one hand it can feel annoying… there is temptation to call it sandbagging… but I totally get it and don’t complain about it if I lose. I just enjoy the opportunity to compete against a strong player.

Best of luck to @UTAH and the other captains and their players who are going for it. Go win your Super Bowl!
 
I have messages directly from someone who played against UT at sectionals in 2017 that details all the blatant tanking they did, particularly in 2nd sets. It was a DM that was sent to me after I commented on a post on this forum.
 
travlerajm said:
I haven’t followed the Utah story, but it appears we have a captain that is following the rules while also doing the things it takes to compete for national titles.

I strongly believe @UTAH shouldn’t have to feel guilty about recruiting young college-age players for ntrp handicapped usta leagues and having them self-rate at a level that gives them a chance to win, and then being pro-active about scheduling practice activities to help them improve.

This is called competing. Just because the majority of captains aren’t taking advantage of these avenues for building really strong teams for the level doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be allowed.

I disagree with the notion that has been suggested that self-rating a player low will stunt development. On the contrary, I would think that competing on a team advancing to nationals would feed a self-reinforcing feedback loop that fuels improvement. Winning is fun. Conversely, if a player joins a usta league for the first time and loses almost every match, it could deter him from wanting to continue with usta league play.

In most cases, when I’ve known players in this category that got self-rated as 4.0 shortly after high school or college by a captain who recruited them to a team, these players end up having a passion for tennis and end up being bumped to 4.5 and in some cases make it to 5.0 within a few years.

As for my attitude toward self-rated league opponents who are obviously over the usual for the level? On the one hand it can feel annoying… there is temptation to call it sandbagging… but I totally get it and don’t complain about it if I lose. I just enjoy the opportunity to compete against a strong player.

Best of luck to @UTAH and the other captains and their players who are going for it. Go win your Super Bowl!
Click to expand...
How do you feel about 1 star players tennis recruiting.net from high school playing 3.5. Because that is how we roll! We also practice 4 times a week and have drills, but it is hard out in the streets in the Southern district. So I say go @UTAH, go get your title.
 
Tiafoe said:
I have messages directly from someone who played against UT at sectionals in 2017 that details all the blatant tanking they did, particularly in 2nd sets. It was a DM that was sent to me after I commented on a post on this forum.
Click to expand...
Keep those DM's flowing, it's great entertainment.
 
travlerajm said:
I haven’t followed the Utah story, but it appears we have a captain that is following the rules while also doing the things it takes to compete for national titles.

I strongly believe @UTAH shouldn’t have to feel guilty about recruiting young college-age players for ntrp handicapped usta leagues and having them self-rate at a level that gives them a chance to win, and then being pro-active about scheduling practice activities to help them improve.

This is called competing. Just because the majority of captains aren’t taking advantage of these avenues for building really strong teams for the level doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be allowed.

I disagree with the notion that has been suggested that self-rating a player low will stunt development. On the contrary, I would think that competing on a team advancing to nationals would feed a self-reinforcing feedback loop that fuels improvement. Winning is fun. Conversely, if a player joins a usta league for the first time and loses almost every match, it could deter him from wanting to continue with usta league play.

In most cases, when I’ve known players in this category that got self-rated as 4.0 shortly after high school or college by a captain who recruited them to a team, these players end up having a passion for tennis and end up being bumped to 4.5 and in some cases make it to 5.0 within a few years.

As for my attitude toward self-rated league opponents who are obviously over the usual for the level? On the one hand it can feel annoying… there is temptation to call it sandbagging… but I totally get it and don’t complain about it if I lose. I just enjoy the opportunity to compete against a strong player.

Best of luck to @UTAH and the other captains and their players who are going for it. Go win your Super Bowl!
Click to expand...
On the one hand, USTA would seem to disagree with you. Their self-rate guildeline descriptions have multiple statements encouraging new players to rate themselves at the higher level if they are not sure, if they have high upside (i.e. strong athlete), or if they have plans to improve rapidly. On the other hand, USTA has no "teeth" behind these kinds of suggestions. As far as I'm aware, the self-rate questionnaire does not ask all these questions directly (e.g., "do you have plans to take lessons to improve substantially during your first season?"). Plus the DQ system is not really designed to detect players who start out performing at-level and then improve beyond level by the end of the year. So in the end, I'm not really sure what USTA's philosophy is about these type of new players.
 
travlerajm said:
I haven’t followed the Utah story, but it appears we have a captain that is following the rules while also doing the things it takes to compete for national titles.

I strongly believe @UTAH shouldn’t have to feel guilty about recruiting young college-age players for ntrp handicapped usta leagues and having them self-rate at a level that gives them a chance to win, and then being pro-active about scheduling practice activities to help them improve.

This is called competing. Just because the majority of captains aren’t taking advantage of these avenues for building really strong teams for the level doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be allowed.

I disagree with the notion that has been suggested that self-rating a player low will stunt development. On the contrary, I would think that competing on a team advancing to nationals would feed a self-reinforcing feedback loop that fuels improvement. Winning is fun. Conversely, if a player joins a usta league for the first time and loses almost every match, it could deter him from wanting to continue with usta league play.

In most cases, when I’ve known players in this category that got self-rated as 4.0 shortly after high school or college by a captain who recruited them to a team, these players end up having a passion for tennis and end up being bumped to 4.5 and in some cases make it to 5.0 within a few years.

As for my attitude toward self-rated league opponents who are obviously over the usual for the level? On the one hand it can feel annoying… there is temptation to call it sandbagging… but I totally get it and don’t complain about it if I lose. I just enjoy the opportunity to compete against a strong player.

Best of luck to @UTAH and the other captains and their players who are going for it. Go win your Super Bowl!
Click to expand...
8-B, not bad, not bad
 
Like I said, I didn’t follow the whole story. I would consider tanking (not trying their best) during the match to be going a step too far.

If someone loses because they deliberately didn’t practice between matches, it starts to get grayer.
 
TennisOTM said:
On the one hand, USTA would seem to disagree with you. Their self-rate guildeline descriptions have multiple statements encouraging new players to rate themselves at the higher level if they are not sure, if they have high upside (i.e. strong athlete), or if they have plans to improve rapidly. On the other hand, USTA has no "teeth" behind these kinds of suggestions. As far as I'm aware, the self-rate questionnaire does not ask all these questions directly (e.g., "do you have plans to take lessons to improve substantially during your first season?"). Plus the DQ system is not really designed to detect players who start out performing at-level and then improve beyond level by the end of the year. So in the end, I'm not really sure what USTA's philosophy is about these type of new players.
Click to expand...
Yes, there are statements about self-rating higher, but anything that puts the onus on the brand new player to somehow know they are borderline or will be above level with practice is never going to work. And as long as the strike thresholds are where they are, players that like you say establish an early at-level rating and then improve will have a hard time being DQ'd.

In essence, the system is setup to try to catch those that are clearly above level from the start, but reward those that are at-level at the start and improve. From what @UTAH describes, his players may just be at the extreme end of the scale of how much improvement is made during the year which makes them stand out. But wouldn't you expect the ones that make it to and win Nationals to stand out?

I've written lots of ideas for how to fix this, so all still stand. But for now, this is the system we have.
 
I have played against that Utah 4.0 team multiple times. The folks I have played against have not been crazy out of rating, but I have no way of knowing if I have played A players or B players from that team. I’ve also only played doubles, so I can’t speak to the young guys that cover singles.

I do think, that while it may be legal, having young kids that “will be” playing on college teams, but can technically self-rate at 4.0 is against the spirit of the game. We all know a 4.0 is not making a college roster. This goes not just for a Utah team, but any team. As someone alluded to, just because something is allowed doesn’t mean it should be done.

Personally, I enjoy playing that Utah team because I like playing good tennis. I care less about winning than I do about enjoying the tennis. I’m glad Doug puts strong teams together because the tennis is fun.
 
zipplock said:
Personally, I enjoy playing that Utah team because I like playing good tennis. I care less about winning than I do about enjoying the tennis. I’m glad Doug puts strong teams together because the tennis is fun.
Click to expand...
I've shared that same opinion before, not about Fowkes, but about sandbaggers, the ones I've played in postseason were fun to play and wouldn't play with me unless I paid them, most of them were paid UTR hitters actually so it was a free session so to speak.

But it's still interesting to me that @UTAH , according to his own players, pays usta fees, meals, hotel , travel etc. That's an interesting extra step. Or, maybe his younger players were bragging and exaggerating, who knows?

I've only known one instance of pay for play in TX where a teaching pro couldn't make trilevel sectionals since it was out of town and he had lessons, so the captain paid him the amount of money he would have made teaching lessons to travel and play in the post season.

And again, none of that is against the rules, it's just amazing.
 
Do universities get criticized for providing financial aid programs for economically underrepresented minorities? Of course not. They are lauded for giving these students a gateway to a better life.

So shouldn’t usta captains be patted on the back for giving these low-income young potential stars a portal to get them started in the world of adult rec tennis?
 
travlerajm said:
Do universities get criticized for providing financial aid programs for economically underrepresented minorities? Of course not. They are lauded for giving these students a gateway to a better life.

So shouldn’t usta captains be patted on the back for giving these low-income young potential stars a portal to get them started in the world of adult rec tennis?
Click to expand...
I think so, that's why I want a netflix or youtube video series on this, it would be that "pat on the back"
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
I've shared that same opinion before, not about Fowkes, but about sandbaggers, the ones I've played in postseason were fun to play and wouldn't play with me unless I paid them, most of them were paid UTR hitters actually so it was a free session so to speak.

But it's still interesting to me that @UTAH , according to his own players, pays usta fees, meals, hotel , travel etc. That's an interesting extra step. Or, maybe his younger players were bragging and exaggerating, who knows?

I've only known one instance of pay for play in TX where a teaching pro couldn't make trilevel sectionals since it was out of town and he had lessons, so the captain paid him the amount of money he would have made teaching lessons to travel and play in the post season.

And again, none of that is against the rules, it's just amazing.
Click to expand...
Our team chips in to pay for non-member fees at our club. We have not had to pay for hotel expenses for post season play, but I am sure if needed we would share rooms, etc. I think the bigger item is the paid lessons. That is not cheap.
 
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