D
Deleted member 23235
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I had to look this up... I'm definitely a big Oscar Wegner methodology disciple.
I think I cracked the code to the 2HBH (video)
- Thread starter DonDiego
- Start date
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
Don't know what you guys think of this, but this is the exact backhand I would like to have (in terms of look, ball trajectory and pace). I notice he hits a lot of them in semi-open stance (it's the guy in black):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4oIrtzDIcQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4oIrtzDIcQ
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
Here's me again this morning: https://vimeo.com/107056736
Is my form better? I don't feel like I'm leaning too much or am unbalanced. I could prepare earlier though.
Thanks again guys.
Is my form better? I don't feel like I'm leaning too much or am unbalanced. I could prepare earlier though.
Thanks again guys.
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
I also think that too much leaning over is a function of the knee bent. On all the shots where my knees are more bent, my back is straight through the shot.
This, for me, reinforces the idea that my preparation should be very similar to my preparation with my one-hander (early shoulder and hip turn, good racquet takeback, knees bent ready to ''jump'' into the shot).
This, for me, reinforces the idea that my preparation should be very similar to my preparation with my one-hander (early shoulder and hip turn, good racquet takeback, knees bent ready to ''jump'' into the shot).
It's really not my place to say. but I will anyways...
You are obsessing over form, while function is the only criteria here.
There is NO way practicing correct form against a ball machine has anything to do with hitting 2hbh's effectively against a live player in a match situation.
Go out and play tennis against a real person. Hit your 2hbh, see how it goes for real, not in a set fake enviornment.
You are obsessing over form, while function is the only criteria here.
There is NO way practicing correct form against a ball machine has anything to do with hitting 2hbh's effectively against a live player in a match situation.
Go out and play tennis against a real person. Hit your 2hbh, see how it goes for real, not in a set fake enviornment.
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
It's really not my place to say. but I will anyways...
You are obsessing over form, while function is the only criteria here.
There is NO way practicing correct form against a ball machine has anything to do with hitting 2hbh's effectively against a live player in a match situation.
Go out and play tennis against a real person. Hit your 2hbh, see how it goes for real, not in a set fake enviornment.
I do both, Lee. Tomorrow morning I'm gonna hit with my friend, and this week-end I play a tournament. What I'm obsessing about is the fact that I'm still at the early stages of my 2HBH construction, and I want to have the perfect form possible before it gets into ''muscle memory'', and repetitions do that. I have two weeks of ball machine/ real matches left before the cold weather sets in here. That's why I want ot fix any flaws in my form as soon as I see it.
Bad habits are hard to change once they're ingrained. I have the chance to start from scratch here, so I'm trying to make the most of it.
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
I strongly disagree with this. Of course real matches are better, but don't underestimate the benefits from ball feeding or ball machine drills when learning a new stroke.
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
I will, Lee, don't worry.
And for what it's worth, I prefer being here and obsessing about form than obsessing about racquets, strings or vibration dampeners, if you know what I mean... ;-)
Hey Don,
Great job coaching yourself! Its been said that often the best coach in life is yourself. I would say your'e progressing well in just a few short hours. Here's a few quick things:
The first thing that's noticeable in your latest video is the ease of motion. It is obviously taking some stress off your shoulder, because your better utilizing your legs and core (not just arms). It appears that on your way to achieving what every high level player wants: easy power. When I've coached players in the past, I get a philosophical and think about the martial arts. Sounds goofy at first, but it's my belief that stroke mechanics should flow like water...
Lao Tzu:
http://cs323819.vk.me/v323819353/a493/6KOctgvXtkk.jpg
http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors4/lao-tzu-lao-tzu-in-the-world-there-is-nothing-more-submissive-and.jpg
Bruce Lee:
http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/TopAuthors/bruce-lee-quote-empty-your-mind-be-formless-shapeless-like-water-now-you-put-water-into-a-cup.jpg
Secondly, your preparation and take-back/unit turn is much better (you can still prepare a little sooner and turn a little more even). Your setup is much improved which gives you a strong base and better balance. That balance is important as you transfer the load from back to front.
https://imageshack.com/i/iqHt1EMEp
As opposed to your first video, you look much more like this now:
Thirdly, because your prep & setup has improved you'll notice that spin production is also improved to go along with your easy power. Without forcing it, your racquet has dropped below ball level (good position to "brush up" from) while beginning your drive through the contact zone. I believe Jack alluded to this yesterday.
https://imageshack.com/i/iplSRRgdp
Fourth, your extension at contact and through the hitting zone is better. Much more easy power with this improved technique. This is similar to the extension on a baseball swing and a golf swing at contact and through the hitting zone. When these swings are long, circular, with good extension, easy power is the result. Nice job with the "chin to shoulder" technique.
https://imageshack.com/i/p1Ejfhjlp
Finally, as you know there's no magic pill. To get to where you want you have to understand the basic stroke mechanics (which doesn't mean an exact copy of someone else and allows individualism). You also have to understand the results of those mechanics. Once you know these, there is no substitute for repetition and developing muscle memory. Your ball machine is great for this. A practice partner (that is on par or better than you) is even better.
Flow like water my friend, Cheers!
His stance is because the ball is coming with a lot of velocity. One advantage of the 2hdbh is you're able to be a little late and still make a stroke. Its very difficult to hit an open stance 1hdbh with any pop.
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
Thank you jjsang23, your help is really appreciated.
Yes. Easy power is what I discovered, and have, with my one-hander. I'm on my way to do the same with two hands.
Nothing goofy about that. One of the best tennis site on the web IMO is Lock and Roll tennis (http://lockandrolltennis.com/). It is exactly about that. Less effort, more power. Coil, and uncoil. His backhand tutorial: http://lockandrolltennis.com/backhand/
Cheers,
Yes. Easy power is what I discovered, and have, with my one-hander. I'm on my way to do the same with two hands.
Nothing goofy about that. One of the best tennis site on the web IMO is Lock and Roll tennis (http://lockandrolltennis.com/). It is exactly about that. Less effort, more power. Coil, and uncoil. His backhand tutorial: http://lockandrolltennis.com/backhand/
Cheers,
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One of my old coaches was not only a former touring pro but also a former muay thai kickboxer. I learned a lot of Eastern philosophy from him lol.
The backhand that you mentioned aspiring to be like, belongs to Simon Konov. He has some good videos on stroke mechanics, drills, and training exercises. He often uses the pros as examples:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TopTennisTrainingNet/about
I aspire to hit the ball like this, but I'm pretty sure I'd be in the E.R. afterwards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzb_GbnMnnM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaDcoIXU3IA
Cheers!
sundaypunch
Hall of Fame
1 hander vs. 2 hander for the OP-
The main point for me is that he has only tried a 2HBH for a very short amount of time (a few months?) and it already is pretty much as good as the 1HBH he has hit for years. It is safe to assume that he is just scratching the surface of his potential with this new shot.
I have to believe that he will see huge improvement in a year or two. I would stick with the 2-hander.
The main point for me is that he has only tried a 2HBH for a very short amount of time (a few months?) and it already is pretty much as good as the 1HBH he has hit for years. It is safe to assume that he is just scratching the surface of his potential with this new shot.
I have to believe that he will see huge improvement in a year or two. I would stick with the 2-hander.
5263
G.O.A.T.
And you are correct...using a ball machine is incredible for grooving a stroke.
Really a major improvement in your balance/contact point in that last video!
5263
G.O.A.T.
part of the advantage of a 2 hander is the later contact point....especially against real big serves where it is so tough to get it out front like the one hander requires.
I'd like you to try a drill where you hit 2 Fhs, using a nice out front CP, then alternate with 2 Bhs where you let the ball sink in deeper and less out front. Try alternating like this for awhile and reinforce the difference in the 2 contact points to make it more natural to have this adjustment. I believe the mind tends to try to make the CPs more alike instead of using the optimum for each side. Let me know how that works for you
I'd like you to try a drill where you hit 2 Fhs, using a nice out front CP, then alternate with 2 Bhs where you let the ball sink in deeper and less out front. Try alternating like this for awhile and reinforce the difference in the 2 contact points to make it more natural to have this adjustment. I believe the mind tends to try to make the CPs more alike instead of using the optimum for each side. Let me know how that works for you
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
Video update - A major tweak and a minor one
For those still interested...
I went hitting with a young coach and friend of mine this morning (sorry the video is not me and him hitting, it's me hitting with the machine - again - later on). First 5-10 minutes my backhand was horrible. My contact point was all over the place, most of the time too close to my body (yes, Lee, that's the danger of hitting too often with a ball machine, I know). I kind of adjusted a few minutes later.
And then I had my ''A-ha!'' moment...
As I was trying to figure out how to keep the ball farther from my body at contact, I started to remember some players I saw on TV (don't remember whom) who were waiting for the ball with their arms straight (but not locked out) on their 2HBH. I started to do it... and voilà! I was tracking the ball much better, always keeping the ball away enough from my body and ending up with a solid contact with my left arm extended.
Other slightly change I made: I'm not ''touching chin to shoulder'' as early now, cause I feel it makes it more difficult to move towards the ball, and it hurts my timing - and fluidity - on fast pace exchange. Delaying the shoulder turn a little bit also helps having a good racquet drop and timing. Now, in my preparation, I just focus on loading weight on my back foot, bending the knees, and keeping my arms straight. The rest takes care of itself.
I may not turn the shoulders as much as I could, but this more compact stroke works well for me, and is better suited to fast pace exchanges that require quick adjustments. And I can still hit powerfully, and effortlessly.
Here's a short clip of my practice afterwards, incorporating all these things : https://vimeo.com/107173806
EDIT: even if don't consciously turn my shoulders and take my racquet back, it seems I'm doing it anyway, even in this new ''compact'' stroke: http://dondiego.smugmug.com/BH/i-sWvnrDq/A
For those still interested...
I went hitting with a young coach and friend of mine this morning (sorry the video is not me and him hitting, it's me hitting with the machine - again - later on). First 5-10 minutes my backhand was horrible. My contact point was all over the place, most of the time too close to my body (yes, Lee, that's the danger of hitting too often with a ball machine, I know). I kind of adjusted a few minutes later.
And then I had my ''A-ha!'' moment...
As I was trying to figure out how to keep the ball farther from my body at contact, I started to remember some players I saw on TV (don't remember whom) who were waiting for the ball with their arms straight (but not locked out) on their 2HBH. I started to do it... and voilà! I was tracking the ball much better, always keeping the ball away enough from my body and ending up with a solid contact with my left arm extended.
Other slightly change I made: I'm not ''touching chin to shoulder'' as early now, cause I feel it makes it more difficult to move towards the ball, and it hurts my timing - and fluidity - on fast pace exchange. Delaying the shoulder turn a little bit also helps having a good racquet drop and timing. Now, in my preparation, I just focus on loading weight on my back foot, bending the knees, and keeping my arms straight. The rest takes care of itself.
I may not turn the shoulders as much as I could, but this more compact stroke works well for me, and is better suited to fast pace exchanges that require quick adjustments. And I can still hit powerfully, and effortlessly.
Here's a short clip of my practice afterwards, incorporating all these things : https://vimeo.com/107173806
EDIT: even if don't consciously turn my shoulders and take my racquet back, it seems I'm doing it anyway, even in this new ''compact'' stroke: http://dondiego.smugmug.com/BH/i-sWvnrDq/A
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donquijote
G.O.A.T.
I think you are a bit tense about this practice and hence the leaning on the right foot with some awkward stance. You feet will naturally be placed as you get comfortable with your BH. Watch Wozniacki BH strokes, she is a beast on the BH side. Other than the foot work, your strokes look solid.
Look how closed her stance is with both feet on the ground.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OubuEs8SY0k
Look how closed her stance is with both feet on the ground.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OubuEs8SY0k
Nice job man. Finding the "individuality and light bulb moment" of the stroke is a beautiful thing. Keep flowing like water my friend.
Cheers
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
Thanks, but which practice are you talking about? The first one or the last one? I must have posted 3-4 videos on this thread covering about a week.
Rozroz
G.O.A.T.
overly good flow,
IMO it still feels you could be much more relaxed,
and gaining much more free power by doing that.
still feels "hard".
one obvious thing is you should turn sideways, properly, a lot sooner.
practice unit turn right after the ball leaves the machine.
might help to reach a more relaxed overall feel.
IMO it still feels you could be much more relaxed,
and gaining much more free power by doing that.
still feels "hard".
one obvious thing is you should turn sideways, properly, a lot sooner.
practice unit turn right after the ball leaves the machine.
might help to reach a more relaxed overall feel.
5263
G.O.A.T.
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
In the vid (my vid) I see one thing in particular I need to work on: I don't get low enough with my knees on most shots. That's where the leaning on the right foot comes from. When I bend my knees, my feet stay gounded through the shot and my back is more straight.
I look a bit tense because I was hitting hard. Harder than on my last video, where I was simply trying to hit slower balls in a relaxed way.
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5263
G.O.A.T.
How about this Bh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnzx0Obq-aY&feature=player_detailpage#t=74
Is is me or is Anna just amazing to watch when playing well? Not just the tennis I might add
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnzx0Obq-aY&feature=player_detailpage#t=74
Is is me or is Anna just amazing to watch when playing well? Not just the tennis I might add
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
How about this Bh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnzx0Obq-aY&feature=player_detailpage#t=74
Is is me or is Anna just amazing to watch when playing well? Not just the tennis I might add
I've seen her up-close practicing in Montreal 2 months ago, and her BH is what impressed me most. At the time I was playing with my one-hander so I didn't care much about technique (I was more interested in watching one-handers, and had a blast watching Suarez-Navarro). But Ana's backhand is incredibly powerful and she finds crazy angles at will.
How about this Bh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnzx0Obq-aY&feature=player_detailpage#t=74
Is is me or is Anna just amazing to watch when playing well? Not just the tennis I might add
She's too distracting for me to watch her tennis... Just ask Roddick http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C78bwGeB4Po
Tight Lines
Professional
DonDiego,
What is the grip on your top hand? Is it semi-western? This relates to how far out in front you need to hit the ball.
Harry
What is the grip on your top hand? Is it semi-western? This relates to how far out in front you need to hit the ball.
Harry
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
My index knuckle is on bevel number 6 on this picture: http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/.../evolution_modern_forehand_part1/8-Bevels.jpg
This is between a eastern forehand and a semi-western, right?
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
I will have an hour tonight to hit some more, around 10 pm. Based on my latest video (https://vimeo.com/107173806), what is the one thing you guys think I should work on at this point?
(When I make millions on the tour, I'll give you all free tickets...)
(When I make millions on the tour, I'll give you all free tickets...)
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
Ok, in other words, I should go back to how I was hitting yesterday, that is: https://vimeo.com/107056736
Tight Lines
Professional
Okay, that is a semi-western grip. That means you should hit the ball a little closer to your body and a little later than an eastern top hand. May be that is why you seem a little unbalanced after you hit. Just my guess.
The impact point should be at or behind your front foot, not in front. JMHO.
Harry
The impact point should be at or behind your front foot, not in front. JMHO.
Harry
5263
G.O.A.T.
I like what you say about the contact behind the front foot, but doesn't a semi help you hit more out front?
Tight Lines
Professional
I think the backhand is a little different from a forehand SW swing because your bottom hand will interfere with hitting out in front. In SW/conti backhand grip, both arms will be bent at the point of impact.
Harry
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
Final video update for this thread
Ok, this is MY backhand. The one I'll be playing with all winter.
https://vimeo.com/107282513
I narrowed it down to a few pointers: load on the backfoot, bend the knees, line yourself up with the ball, and BOOM! My shots have depth, spin, and good pace. 90% are hit clean and in the sweetspot, which wasn't the case at all only a week ago, even on the receiving end of a ball machine.
Now it's time to hone it in rallies and matches.
Some will say I don't prepare early or fully enough. It's on purpose. As I read somewhere, you shouldn't commit yourself with a backswing until it's time to "pull the trigger" and take a cut at it. Preparing too early or taking the racquet too far back ruins my timing and robs me of the flexibility needed to adjust to different balls. A short takeback also allows for a better and quicker racquet drop, at least for me.
I think it's also something Oscar Wagner is keen on, maybe 5263 can confirm this.
Ok, this is MY backhand. The one I'll be playing with all winter.
https://vimeo.com/107282513
I narrowed it down to a few pointers: load on the backfoot, bend the knees, line yourself up with the ball, and BOOM! My shots have depth, spin, and good pace. 90% are hit clean and in the sweetspot, which wasn't the case at all only a week ago, even on the receiving end of a ball machine.
Now it's time to hone it in rallies and matches.
Some will say I don't prepare early or fully enough. It's on purpose. As I read somewhere, you shouldn't commit yourself with a backswing until it's time to "pull the trigger" and take a cut at it. Preparing too early or taking the racquet too far back ruins my timing and robs me of the flexibility needed to adjust to different balls. A short takeback also allows for a better and quicker racquet drop, at least for me.
I think it's also something Oscar Wagner is keen on, maybe 5263 can confirm this.
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Tight Lines
Professional
DonDiego,
Your grip is the most common among female players. I would suggest you take a look at some slow mo videos of Ana Ivanovic and Sharapova for example. Notice that they are hitting the ball a little later than guys with an eastern top hand.
May be you should try hitting the ball a little later, slightly behind your front foot? You may be in better balance after the hit. Right now, it looks like you are still falling forward a little. JMHO.
Harry
Your grip is the most common among female players. I would suggest you take a look at some slow mo videos of Ana Ivanovic and Sharapova for example. Notice that they are hitting the ball a little later than guys with an eastern top hand.
May be you should try hitting the ball a little later, slightly behind your front foot? You may be in better balance after the hit. Right now, it looks like you are still falling forward a little. JMHO.
Harry
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
Thanks Harry. Yes, I'm still working on this (waiting a bit more for the ball), though I don't think this slight leaning will be such a problem. I was also leaning a bit on my one-hander. I'll try to fix it, but won't obsess about it if it doesn't change. What you don't see on the video is the ball pace, spin and placement. I'm very, very satisfied with those with that swing, and it's what matters most.
But like I said, I wrote myself a note to wait more for the ball during my next practices, so that with time my contact point will gradually get a bit closer to my body.
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
Or maybe I should use an eastern grip with the top hand? Maybe I'll try that.
sundaypunch
Hall of Fame
A 2HBH is no different than a 1HBH in that, the further you move from eastern to semi-western, the more out front that you have to hit. I agree with 5263 on this one.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
nice looking bhand... regarding some of the comments:
"lean/falling...", i was curious if that was the "right" way too (eg. wondering if I needed to correct it also)... looks like djokovic does it too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM @1:10)
"don't commit to a full swing until you're ready to pull the trigger..." - agreed, i'm a OW accolyte too.. to clarify i think the full context of the instruction is, "...and match the size of the preparation to the time you have to swing". the idea is that if you take a full prep, then have to half volley or get jammed or the ball takes a bad bounce, the timing to hit from a long prep is more difficult, than if you just took a short prep at the last minute.
"hit behind your back foot" - djoker hits out in front, but not sure what grip he uses. personally i use a SW grip (non-dominant hand) and have to hit (slightly) out in front. just to clarify, my understanding is that the further to western your grip moves, the more in front of your body you have to hit (because it requires your forearm to rotate more to get to vertical)
my $0.02
"lean/falling...", i was curious if that was the "right" way too (eg. wondering if I needed to correct it also)... looks like djokovic does it too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM @1:10)
"don't commit to a full swing until you're ready to pull the trigger..." - agreed, i'm a OW accolyte too.. to clarify i think the full context of the instruction is, "...and match the size of the preparation to the time you have to swing". the idea is that if you take a full prep, then have to half volley or get jammed or the ball takes a bad bounce, the timing to hit from a long prep is more difficult, than if you just took a short prep at the last minute.
"hit behind your back foot" - djoker hits out in front, but not sure what grip he uses. personally i use a SW grip (non-dominant hand) and have to hit (slightly) out in front. just to clarify, my understanding is that the further to western your grip moves, the more in front of your body you have to hit (because it requires your forearm to rotate more to get to vertical)
my $0.02
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
OK I'm getting a bit confused here... since my grip is semi-western, does that mean I'm ok hitting out in front as I do now? https://vimeo.com/107282513
Tight Lines
Professional
IMO, you fail to realize that the pivot point for a 1HBH is the right shoulder whereas for a 2HBH, it is the left shoulder. They are not the same.
Harry
taurussable
Professional
didn't read the full thread. but your backswing seems to have last second adjustment or micro swing.
Tight Lines
Professional
You are hitting out front. IMO, a little too much in front for your grip.
I think the way you lean in to hit a shot ( raising your left shoulder as you hit), you may want to try the eastern top hand.
Harry
DonDiego
Hall of Fame
Yes, as someone pointed out, I do a much better job at this with my one-hander. See it here: https://vimeo.com/106954114
I played my final match of the tournament this afternoon, winning 6-1, 6-3 (not the finals, this was on the ''loser's side'', but still.) So I'm proud to say I had the balls to play the entire tournament with a 2-hand backhand for the first time ever, which I was very nervous about doing. Overall it went ok, but I still think I could have done better with my one-hander. At this point I'm incapable of hitting winners down that wing, whereas I would hit at least 1-2 per set with 1-hander.
I'll take a few days break and see what I want to do. I'm really happy I gave it a real try, and I'm very thankful for all the advices you guys gave me. It will be worth it if I ever coach one day, and want to teach both backhands. I'm just not so sure switching will help my game that much, or if it will worsen it. Too early to tell I guess.
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sundaypunch
Hall of Fame
Of course they aren't the same, and they won't have the same contact point. Either way though, a semi-western grip will require you to hit more out front than an eastern. I have never seen a source that recommends hitting a semi-western further back than eastern.
This should be obvious to DonDiego when he is experimenting. The SW grip will close the racquet face more and is easier to hit a little further in front. Try moving all the way to a western grip and it becomes obvious that you need to hit even further in front.
Of course, the vast majority of pros with a 2HBH hit with a conti grip on the RH and eastern on the LH. I would advise him to stick with that. I don't know of any coach that is going to teach a 2HBH with an eastern top hand and SW left hand.
We will have to agree to disagree. The OP will get a variety of opinions and will have to figure out for himself what works.
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Tight Lines
Professional
Well, we will just have to disagree. The contact point is a very complex topic and is not as simple as you make it out to be. It depends on the power contribution from both hands, shoulder positions and which grip is more of an extension rather than rotation, etc.
The eastern/conti is more of an attacking grip and requires more extension whereas the SW/conti requires more of a rotation, rather than extension.
IMO, the eastern/conti grip will require you to hit more out in front than a SW/conti.
Harry
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