I would be hilarious if Novak ends up with 12 Australian opens

ForehandRF

Hall of Fame
He hadn't even made past the the 3rd round at Wimbledon before 2006. So he got to that final, thanks to a cushy draw, but to me he wasn't a great grass player yet.
He was still a good opposition for Fed though, especially given that their H2H before that final was 6-1 for Rafa.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
He was still a good opposition for Fed though, especially given that their H2H before that final was 6-1 for Rafa.
He was always good opposition for Federer, regardless of surface, and he was the #2 in the world so it's not like he was some scrub or something.
 

Enceladus

Legend
Wishful thinking at its finest. No other young player is stronger than Thiem at the AO, and only Medvedev has the potential to come close to Thiem's level.
It is possible that in the future Thiem will reach another AO final, but also he doesn't have to. Maybe be the AO 2020 final was his only AO final in his career. Things can change, e.g. Wawrinka even won the AO in 2014, he beats Djokovic and Nadal on the way for the title, but didn't reach another AO final. And many similar examples can be mentioned.
 

Eren

Professional
It's obvious competition on clay is weaker than on HC. HC rules the tour, thus players tailor their game and train more on that surface. It's been like that for a very long time.
So people should value Fed and Djoke's HC records and dominance more than they should value the Nadal's clay accomplishments? (I know you're not saying or implying this, I am honestly curious what it should mean).
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
It is possible that in the future Thiem will reach another AO final, but also he doesn't have to. Maybe be the AO 2020 final was his only AO final in his career. Things can change, e.g. Wawrinka even won the AO in 2014, he beats Djokovic and Nadal on the way for the title, but didn't reach another AO final. And many similar examples can be mentioned.
Wishful thinking, Thiem will reach several AO finals. Djokovic is also much older than in 2014, so he will have a tougher time defeating Thiem than Wawrinka. In fact, he will lose to Thiem in an AO final.
 

Enceladus

Legend
Nadal of Wimbledon 2006 beats Djokovic of any Wimbledon.
You are wrong. Djokovic 2015 was better than any version of Nadal on the grass, including Nadal from Wimbledon 2008.
Furthermore, Djoker's versions from Wimbledon 2011 or 2018 were strong enough to beat Nadal 2006 on the grass.
 
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Sport

G.O.A.T.
He hadn't even made past the the 3rd round at Wimbledon before 2006. So he got to that final, thanks to a cushy draw, but to me he wasn't a great grass player yet.
I disagree with the notion that reaching your first final in a Slam necessarily means you are still not great. Also, at Wimbledon 2005 Nadal lost to Müller, a player that always have him problems on grass.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
You are wrong. Djokovic 2015 was better than any version of Nadal on the grass, including Nadal from Wimbledon 2008.
Furthermore, Djoker from Wimbledon 2011 or 2018 would be able to beat Nadal 2006 on the grass.
You are wrong. Nadal 2008 was better than any version of Djokovic on grass, including Djokovic from Wimbledon 2015.
 

Eren

Professional
You are wrong. Djokovic 2015 was better than any version of Nadal on the grass, including Nadal from Wimbledon 2008.
Furthermore, Djoker from Wimbledon 2011 or 2018 would be able to beat Nadal 2006 on the grass.
This is thread worthy, I am not sure if the vast majority of members would agree with this.

I know there were already threads about this a few years back.
 

Eren

Professional
You are wrong. Nadal 2008 was better than any version of Djokovic on grass, including Djokovic from Wimbledon 2015.
I would be inclined to think so as well. That guy was a mental beast from RG08-Olympics08. It is at least not so cut clear as some Djoko fans make it out to be.
 

Enceladus

Legend
Wishful thinking, Thiem will reach several AO finals. Djokovic is also much older than in 2014, so he will have a tougher time defeating Thiem than Wawrinka. In fact, he will lose to Thiem in an AO final.
What wishful thinking? Where do I rule out that Thiem will not reach another AO final? You have high expectations associated with Thiem and to this I respond that these expectations may not come true. I say it's premature to claim that Thiem is a new constant threat to Djoker on AO.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Wishful thinking, Thiem will reach several AO finals. Djokovic is also much older than in 2014, so he will have a tougher time defeating Thiem than Wawrinka. In fact, he will lose to Thiem in an AO final.
Just like he lost this year? :sneaky:
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
I disagree with the notion that reaching your first final in a Slam necessarily means you are still not great. Also, at Wimbledon 2005 Nadal lost to Müller, a player that always have him problems on grass.
Agree to disagree on this.
 

TheAssassin

Legend
Wishful thinking, Thiem will reach several AO finals. Djokovic is also much older than in 2014, so he will have a tougher time defeating Thiem than Wawrinka. In fact, he will lose to Thiem in an AO final.
Do you think he will also take Nadal out in a French Open final one day?
 

Hitman

G.O.A.T.
All the nadal fans saying how amazing nadals 12 French opens are and how untouchable that record is.
It is not just Nadal fans, tennis fans and sports fan in general recognize, appreciate and respect the stratospheric accomplishment of Rafa's dominance at RG. And rightfully so.

Imagine Djokovic equalling it? Unlikely I know. I’ve heard several people say Djokovic could end up with 8 Wimbledon’s to match Federer. So why not 4 more Australians? Nadal and his fans would be completely irrelevant, if they aren’t already.
Nadal is a sporting legend who will always be in the conversation of tennis GOAT, even if someone comes along in a few years and wins more RG titles than him. Nadal or his supporters will never become irrelevant. You're a good Sampras fan, and you've supported him like I have, do you think Pete had become completely irrelevant since three other players overtook his record? Pete will always be mentioned, so not sure why the shot at Rafa or his fans for that matter.
 

Enceladus

Legend
You are wrong. Nadal 2008 was better than any version of Djokovic on grass, including Djokovic from Wimbledon 2015.
This is thread worthy, I am not sure if the vast majority of members would agree with this.

I know there were already threads about this a few years back.
  1. Djokovic 2015 had better ROS than Federer 2008, Djoker 2015 would have put pressure at Nadal's service much better than Fed 2008.
  2. Djoker 2015 didn't have a weakened mental power like Fed 2008 (due to a heavy loss at the 2008 RG), Djoker 2015 would not lose a set from a lead 4:1.
  3. Nadal's pressure on his opponent's BH would not be as effective against Djoker 2015 as it was against Fed 2008.
I saw both the 2008 and 2015 finals and I consider Djoker 2015 performance more impressive than performance from Nadal 2008.
 

Surion

Hall of Fame
It's not happening. Thiem will defeat Djokovic in an AO final sooner or later, it's inevitable.


Plus, Nadal is far more dominant at RG than Djokovic at the AO. Djokovic needed 5 sets to defeat Thiem at the AO, while Nadal in 4 RG meetings against Thiem only has lost 1 set. And while Djokovic struggled against Stan at the AO, Stan never won a single set against Rafa at RG despite facing him twice in 2013 and 2017.



Stan defeated Rafa at AO14.
Don't compare different tournaments unless you do it for both players.
 
All the nadal fans saying how amazing nadals 12 French opens are and how untouchable that record is. Imagine Djokovic equalling it? Unlikely I know. I’ve heard several people say Djokovic could end up with 8 Wimbledon’s to match Federer. So why not 4 more Australians? Nadal and his fans would be completely irrelevant, if they aren’t already.
8 Wimbys is absurd, 12 Aussies even more so. Just because false prophets on TTW said 8 Wimbys is possible doesn't mean we make the same silly claim for AO. We do the opposite: we nip that nonsense in the bud. He'll be very lucky if he has 6-7 Wimbys and 9 AOs.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Just like he lost this year? :sneaky:
He needed 5 sets and is almost 33 years old. No doubt he will lose an AO final to Thiem. Only question remaining is when. I don't understand this denialism from Djokovic fans. Each year it will be tougher for Novak to beat Thiem at the AO, as he is only getting older and older. Do you see 36 years old Djokovic defeating 30 years old Thiem in an AO final?
 
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Deleted member 763691

Guest
12 won't be enough, because Rafa will finish with 15+ French Open titles :)
Also, Rafa will win 25+ slam titles and will treat ball kids with respect, unlike Djokovic.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Stan defeated Rafa at AO14.
Don't compare different tournaments unless you do it for both players.
An injured Rafa, yes. And it doesn't change the fact that Wawrinka has 2 RG finals compared with only 1 AO final. Wawrinka has a better resume at RG than at the AO.
 

Eren

Professional
  1. Djokovic 2015 had better ROS than Federer 2008, Djoker 2015 would have put pressure at Nadal's service much better than Fed 2008.
  2. Djoker 2015 didn't have a weakened mental power like Fed 2008 (due to a heavy loss at the 2008 RG), Djoker 2015 would not lose a set from a lead 4:1.
  3. Nadal's pressure on his opponent's BH would not be as effective against Djoker 2015 as it was against Fed 2008.
I saw both the 2008 and 2015 finals and I consider Djoker 2015 performance more impressive than performance from Nadal 2008.
1. Djokovic 2015 has better ROS than ANY version of Federer lol. Fed's RoS is... decent but IMO far from a weapon to put an ATG under pressure.
2. True, but who says Djoko 2015 would go up 4-1 against 2008 Nadal. The "If Fed can do it, Djoko can do it as well" isn't valid. That's not how sport works in general.
3. Nadal 2008 had more than just BH pressure. See what he did to Djokovic at RG 2008.

About the bolded, the performance of Djokovic looks more impressive because he was up against a guy who lost to his pets Seppi at AO and Wawa at RG. Nadal was up against a guy who made an SF and F and was the reigning five-times champion and not 33.9 year old Runner-Up. It's much much closer than you make it out to be.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
He needed 5 sets and is almost 33 years old. No doubt he will lose an AO final to Thiem. Only question remaining is when. I don't understand this denialism from Djokovic fans. Each year it will be tougher for Novak to beat Thiem at the AO, as he is only getting older and older. Do you see 36 years old Djokovic defeating 30 years old Thiem in an AO final?
Thiem played to the top of his abilities, the best he has ever played there, and he still didn't beat a Djokovic who didn't play his best. You act like Thiem is a shoe in to make it to another AO final. Before this year, he hadn't even made it to a QF. Djokovic is 8-0 in AO semifinals and finals. By the time he reaches that stage he is extremely difficult to stop, so when he falls off he probably won't be making SF anyway. He has beaten everyone in the world in Australia and is on a 15 match winning streak against the top 5 so predicting Thiem to beat in an AO final, of all places, is a shot in the dark.
 

Enceladus

Legend
1. Djokovic 2015 has better ROS than ANY version of Federer lol. Fed's RoS is... decent but IMO far from a weapon to put an ATG under pressure.
2. True, but who says Djoko 2015 would go up 4-1 against 2008 Nadal. The "If Fed can do it, Djoko can do it as well" isn't valid. That's not how sport works in general.
3. Nadal 2008 had more than just BH pressure. See what he did to Djokovic at RG 2008.

About the bolded, the performance of Djokovic looks more impressive because he was up against a guy who lost to his pets Seppi at AO and Wawa at RG. Nadal was up against a guy who made an SF and F and was the reigning five-times champion and not 33.9 year old Runner-Up. It's much much closer than you make it out to be.
All in all, Djokovic is worse / harder matchup for Nadal than Federer. Djoker has better ROS, stronger BH, better defensive and court coverage than Fed. And last but not least, better mental strength.

Nowhere do I write that Djoker 2015 beat Nadal 2008 in three sets. It would be a tough match, but I prefer Djoker 2015 to win, due to his improved serve, ROS, BH, excellent movement and court coverage. In addition to service, Fed 2008 was weaker in all these factors, but still managed to get Nadal into the 5th set.

Regarding the pressure on BH, of course, Nadal 2008 did more than that. I refer to this as the difference factor that helped him defeat Fed 2008. However, against Djoker 2015, this factor would not be successful.

You said you are not sure if most of the Talk Tennis Forum would agree with my opinion. There is already a thread on this topic and Djoker 2015 gained more votes in the poll:
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Thiem played to the top of his abilities, the best he has ever played there, and he still didn't beat a Djokovic who didn't play his best. You act like Thiem is a shoe in to make it to another AO final. Before this year, he hadn't even made it to a QF. Djokovic is 8-0 in AO semifinals and finals. By the time he reaches that stage he is extremely difficult to stop, so when he falls off he probably won't be making SF anyway. He has beaten everyone in the world in Australia and is on a 15 match winning streak against the top 5 so predicting Thiem to beat in an AO final, of all places, is a shot in the dark.
I am sorry but to say that "Djokovic was not at his best" is like saying "Thiem was tired of playing 5 hours more than Djokovic and having one day less to rest than Djokovic before the final". Just an excuse. The reality is that almost 33 years old Djokovic played at the top of his abilities for his age and sitll couldn't defeat Thiem in less than 5 sets. Doesn't look unreasonable to see an older Djokovic losing to Thiem in an AO final, in fact it looks like the natural thing to happen, as Djokovic will play worse the older he gets. Unlikely to see 36 years old Djokovic winning the AO final against Thiem. Djokovic starting to lose before reaching more AO finals looks more like wishful thinking to protect his "finals invictus status" than an actual plausible scenario. You didn't reply to me with an explicit answer though. Do you think Thiem will never beat Djokovic in an AO final?
 
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NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
I am sorry but to sasy that "Djokovic was not at his best" is like saying "Thiem was tired of playing 5 hours more than Djokovic and having one day less to rest than Djokovic before the final and that is the reason why he lost". Just an excuse. The reality is that almost 33 years old Djokovic played at the top of his abilities for his age and sitll couldn 't defeat Thiem in less than 5 sets. Doesn't look unreasonable to see an older Djokovic losing to Thiem in an AO final, in fact it looks like the natural thing to happen, as Djokovic will play worse the older he gets. Djokovic starting to lose before reaching more AO finals looks more like wishful thinking than an actual plausible scenario.
It's not an excuse. It's freaking reality. He went MIA for two sets with low energy and still won the match. You thinking Djokovic played the best he could is delusion. The best he could have played was the final last year. Sorry but predicting Thiem to beat him in an AO final, as if he is guaranteed to make that stage next year, is a lot of wishful thinking.
 

doparrained

New User
Sport still hasn't explained that even in the scenario Thiem overtakes Djokovic and Nadal on slower courts at some point, what makes him so sure Thiem holds off all the players 3-5 years younger than him already there who are beating him in occasion (well always beating him if it is a final it seems) and who quite possibly/likely all have more improvement ahead of them than he does. In addition to the players who have not yet even emerged.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
It's not an excuse. It's freaking reality. He went MIA for two sets with low energy and still won the match. You thinking Djokovic played the best he could is delusion. The best he could have played was the final last year. Sorry but predicting Thiem to beat him in an AO final, as if he is guaranteed to make that stage next year, is a lot of wishful thinking.
Then I can also say "it's not an excuse, it's freanking reality that Thiem was tired of playing 5 hours more than Djokovic and having one day less to rest than Djokovic before the final. You thinking Thiem was not tired is delusion". And 2019 is not 2020. First, because Djokovic in 2020 is older than in 2019, and second because old Nadal by level of play (he reached the final beating mugs like Tiafoe and Tsitsipas) was an easier opponent than Thiem. You still didn't reply to my question: Do you think Thiem will never beat Djokovic in an AO final?
 
Then I can also say "it's not an excuse, it's freanking reality that Thiem was tired of playing 5 hours more than Djokovic and having one day less to rest than Djokovic before the final. You thinking Thiem was not tired is delusion". You still didn't reply to my question: Do you think Thiem will never beat Djokovic in an AO final?
Honestly, I would bet against it. Not because he is not good enough to do so. You are right that, even though Djokovic at his best is better than Thiem at his best, once the age advantage becomes significant enough - which may be next year already - Thiem has a great chance of beating him if they play. But the crucial part is the "if they play." There may well never be another Djokovic/Thiem final in Australia. There has never been a Nadal/Federer match at the US Open.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Then I can also say "it's not an excuse, it's freanking reality that Thiem was tired of playing 5 hours more than Djokovic and having one day less to rest than Djokovic before the final. You thinking Thiem was not tired is delusion". And 2019 is not 2020. First, because Djokovic in 2020 is older than in 2019, and second because Nadal was an easier opponent than Thiem. You still didn't reply to my question: Do you think Thiem will never beat Djokovic in an AO final?
Say whatever you want but anyone with eyes can see his played of his skin in set 2, 3, 4 and part of set 5 and it still wasn't enough. Saying Thiem would be more tired than Djokovic is something that I had already said before the match so you need a different redirect. Point is, he didn't play like it and his best wasn't enough. Yes, let me answer: No, I don't think he will beat Djokovic in an AO final. If it's the QF, and Djokovic is having a bad day, then yes.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Say whatever you want but anyone with eyes can see his played of his skin in set 2, 3, 4 and part of set 5 and it still wasn't enough. Saying Thiem would be more tired than Djokovic is something that I had already said before the match so you need a different redirect. Point is, he didn't play like it and his best wasn't enough. Yes, let me answer: No, I don't think he will beat Djokovic in an AO final. If it's the QF, and Djokovic is having a bad day, then yes.
Would you include as "bad day" being old? Even if, say, 36+ years old Djokovic wanted to play "his best" at the AO, he would most likely not be able to do so given his advanced age.
 
It's not an excuse. It's freaking reality. He went MIA for two sets with low energy and still won the match. You thinking Djokovic played the best he could is delusion. The best he could have played was the final last year. Sorry but predicting Thiem to beat him in an AO final, as if he is guaranteed to make that stage next year, is a lot of wishful thinking.
It's amazing how you lay all the necessary grounds to establish the weakness of Djokovic's win without recognising it :)
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Would you include as "bad day" being old? Even if, say, 36+ years old Djokovic wanted to play "his best" at the AO, he would most likely not be able to do so given his advanced age.
I don't worry about old, young, etc. I worry about what form you are in. He is more likely to have an off day in the QF than a final which is why I think he has a higher possibility of losing. As he ages, I would expect him to drift farther and farther away from his prime but we will cross that bridge when we get there.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
I don't worry about old, young, etc. I worry about what form you are in. He is more likely to have an off day in the QF than a final which is why I think he has a higher possibility of losing. As he ages, I would expect him to drift farther and farther away from his prime but we will cross that bridge when we get there.
Why don't you worry about age? It is quite surprising. Don't you see a correlation between aging and decreasing level? Do you think 38 years old Djokovic (if still active) could play as well at the AO as he did in the AO 2019?

P. S.: sorry I didn't read all your message. Fair enough, we can debate it in the future.
 
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