I would like my slice to bounce very low

toth

Hall of Fame
What is the key
1.in general
2.in case of midhigh incoming midcourt ball if i would like to answer it with short skidding backhand slice?

Thank you for your answer
Toth
 

Dragy

Legend
What is the key
1.in general
2.in case of midhigh incoming midcourt ball if i would like to answer it with short skidding backhand slice?

Thank you for your answer
Toth
1. Hit low over the net
2. More backspin (for same no-arc low trajectory - more skid and lower the bounce

For your case, either let the ball drop to netcord level/lower, than hit it with moderate drive and some backspin; or take it high, but prepare even higher - you want to bring it lower over the net and with generous backspin to kill the bounce. Latter one is harder to execute.

In any case don’t hit too high ball, too low, neither extremely choppy
 

toth

Hall of Fame
1. Hit low over the net
2. More backspin (for same no-arc low trajectory - more skid and lower the bounce

For your case, either let the ball drop to netcord level/lower, than hit it with moderate drive and some backspin; or take it high, but prepare even higher - you want to bring it lower over the net and with generous backspin to kill the bounce. Latter one is harder to execute.

In any case don’t hit too high ball, too low, neither extremely choppy
If i understand correctly more high to low backspin causes shorter, more skidding slice - this is the shot i am looking for!
In case of more high to low swing how schould i alter the racket face angle?
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
2. More backspin (for same no-arc low trajectory - more skid and lower the bounce
Not sure #2 is true. I remember reading a Tennis Magazine article stating that a slice shot jumps up at a steeper angle than a topspin shot. Of course, a topspin shot eventually bounces to a higher point.
I believe a flat shot, given the same trajectory, stays lower.
 

toth

Hall of Fame
Not sure #2 is true. I remember reading a Tennis Magazine article stating that a slice shot jumps up at a steeper angle than a topspin shot. Of course, a topspin shot eventually bounces to a higher point.
I believe a flat shot, given the same trajectory, stays lower.
My problem is with a flat shot that i would like to hit a short ball. Flat slice tends to go rather deeper.
 

Dragy

Legend
Not sure #2 is true. I remember reading a Tennis Magazine article stating that a slice shot jumps up at a steeper angle than a topspin shot. Of course, a topspin shot eventually bounces to a higher point.
I believe a flat shot, given the same trajectory, stays lower.
That depends on the trajectory. If slice shot floats high, loses all speed, than drops and bounces - that’s one story. If slice shot comes from high contact downward, it will bounce before loosing speed, and the more trajectory gets “level” due to backspin, the more skid. Skid needs decent ball speed remaining + sharp incoming angle.
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
That depends on the trajectory. If slice shot floats high, loses all speed, than drops and bounces - that’s one story. If slice shot comes from high contact downward, it will bounce before loosing speed, and the more trajectory gets “level” due to backspin, the more skid. Skid needs decent ball speed remaining + sharp incoming angle.
I believe the physics behind the TM story was the backspin would make the ball bite into the court and then the change to topspin makes it pop up. I don’t think slice shots continue to have backspin after hitting court. The spin reverses unless you are playing on a surface with a very low coefficient of friction. The lesser change of spin from none to topspin of a flat shot keeps it lower all else being equal. Have no figures to back it up, just remembering a story from 40 years ago.
 

Dragy

Legend
I believe the physics behind the TM story was the backspin would make the ball bite into the court and then the change to topspin makes it pop up. I don’t think slice shots continue to have backspin after hitting court. The spin reverses unless you are playing on a surface with a very low coefficient of friction. The lesser change of spin from none to topspin of a flat shot keeps it lower all else being equal. Have no figures to back it up, just remembering a story from 40 years ago.
That’s correct, but in the meantime with slice you get much more sharp incoming angle and less vertical speed component, in certain cases. With that ball compresses much less and the contact becomes less substance to change the bounce. Altogether results in low bounce.
If you could have much lower trajectory with no dip with topspin, than yes. You can have it on around-the-netpost shots, but not over the net
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
My crappy TS BH has made me a slicer for decades. Agree with Dragy. On high balls slice more at 20-30 degrees and let gravity bring the ball down.

Maybe I didn't understand Dragys comment. I find more backspin doesn't make the ball low but it does make it more difficult. working on lately is slicing fast underneath the ball with a very open racquet face that generates a ton of backspin. Alternating that with fast skidding slices and high drifters with side.

If i want fast strait skidding slice i hit with an almost vertical racket face a high take back and make sure the weight totally on the front foot.

side spin effectively makes the ball lower on angle shots because Opp has to get there and get around the side of the ball.. The main point of slice is to work the angles.

The other path less traveled is hitting mid height but very softly. Playing guys who have this style is like stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork everytime you hit a hard shot. They just absorb the pace with soft hands and bleed you out as you have to sprint forward for the 100th time

And slice is a stiletto not a sword. Good to be practicing shot patterns

I will often loop 2 BHs CC then with the same takeback drop a short slice with side DTL. Note I said short not drop shot. Your just trying to get him wide on the tram line and then finish to the open court. If he starts to read that hit a bit harder and turn it into a deep slice.
 
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Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
What is the key
1.in general
2.in case of midhigh incoming midcourt ball if i would like to answer it with short skidding backhand slice?

Thank you for your answer
Toth
lots of backspin but you have to really hit it hard. Harder than you think. Its the racquet face angle really. If you tee off on the shot and have the wrong angle it will probably clear the fence. But if you get it right ball goes through the court and stays low.

At least this is the shot I think you are talking about:


Maybe @IowaGuy can chime in and post a vid. He has some of the best slice I have seen on this bored...
 

HuusHould

Hall of Fame
What is the key
1.in general
2.in case of midhigh incoming midcourt ball if i would like to answer it with short skidding backhand slice?

Thank you for your answer
Toth

On synthetic grass I know the answer and I assume it's similar on hard court;
1. More backspin
2. More spin - You come around the ball more so it's somewhere between backspin and sidespin.

The more revolutions you put on the ball the lower it will bounce, just like with topspin, the higher it will bounce.

The technique I find best for maximising revs on the slice bh, is kind of like a slice serve, you need a loose wrist snap just prior to contact to maximise racquet head speed/brush which will maximise spin.
To do this, I actually use an unorthodox 2 handed release slice backhand (Think the slice version of Borgs drive- you need to be in good position to use this. People say you should outstretch your non dominant hand behind you for balance when you hit a slice bh, but I find that isn't necessary. I push my right (dominant) hand/arm through with my left (non dominant) hand. (Because I use a single hander when I drive my bh (I start in my ready position, ready for either possibility), the push with my left hand starts into the throat of the racquet (my friend who taught me the method is a double hander, so he starts pushing the grip of the racquet just above his domimant hand)- so through the two uprights/sides of the throat is the direction of the force and my left hand slides up my right arm to about my right elbow before my arms separate in the follow through- this provides the stability of two hands at contact and the freedom of follow through that a single hander affords) This gives it more thrust through contact and the potential for significantly more revolutions. It allows you to play a slice bh from shoulder height on syn grass and in doing so hit a shot that barely bounces above your opponents knee height. It's good for offensive slices in reply to balls that lack pace, be they low or high. It's not so good for defending very wide balls as you have to be in pretty good position to reach the ball.

You can feed to yourself using backspin and use this technique to approach the net, because its good for creating pace and spin in reply to "nude" balls. Or ones with nothing on them!
 

Goof

Professional
Add a sidespin component.

This. Too pure of backspin will make your ball sit up after it bounces. Sidespin is needed too. How much of each? No clue, you will have to experiment. For me, when I hit aggressively aiming for like 60% sidespin and 40% backspin I get the best results. It might be different for you though depending on how steep your racquet path is, how hard you are hitting it, etc. My swing on my slice has a relatively low start compared to most people and I hit mine a lot harder than most do though, so too much focus on backspin for me and my balls will fly up and deep.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
Could you recommend a video which tells the technique of this shot?

Underspin shots with higher ball speed and higher spin rates will bounce lowest. The heavier the spin the slower the ball falls, and the more ball speed the more the spin has effect on the ball so it falls slower, and so it will bounce lower. But you also have a very small margin for error with this shot, and you have to have good timing to swing at it so quickly and still get the ball into the court. You're probably talking about something like the 5th underspin ball I hit in this video. Underspin shots start at 0:53.


As a 4.5 player, if I tried to hit that shot every time, I'd miss three or four out of five. I never try to hit it that way but if it does end up low and skiddy, then I take it as a lucky and fortunate shot, and then pretend like I can do that whenever I want. Some but not all pros can hit this shot. Berretini hits a very penetrating one, but you never see Nadal try to hit one as severe as Berretini can hit them.
 

toth

Hall of Fame
Underspin shots with higher ball speed and higher spin rates will bounce lowest. The heavier the spin the slower the ball falls, and the more ball speed the more the spin has effect on the ball so it falls slower, and so it will bounce lower. But you also have a very small margin for error with this shot, and you have to have good timing to swing at it so quickly and still get the ball into the court. You're probably talking about something like the 5th underspin ball I hit in this video. Underspin shots start at 0:53.


As a 4.5 player, if I tried to hit that shot every time, I'd miss three or four out of five. I never try to hit it that way but if it does end up low and skiddy, then I take it as a lucky and fortunate shot, and then pretend like I can do that whenever I want. Some but not all pros can hit this shot. Berretini hits a very penetrating one, but you never see Nadal try to hit one as severe as Berretini can hit them.
Could you estimate your percentage from the midcourt?
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
From mid court don't worry about skid. Gently slice into whichever corner is far for your opponent. Then cover the net CC
 

toth

Hall of Fame
From mid court don't worry about skid. Gently slice into whichever corner is far for your opponent. Then cover the net CC
This is what i do against player who dont have a forehand weapon.
But i would like to be even more effektiv and i think a suprise short skiddy slice would help a lot.
Again i usually play on clay.
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
As long as it's the other corner I wouldn't worry about their FH if they get there late they will have to put up a defensive shot. Be just inside service line CC. Then you can cover the high roller or move forward to close the net.

Sure a short skidder would help but it's low %. Short angle slices with side give same profit with less risk.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
Could you estimate your percentage from the midcourt?

I wouldn't try to hit that shot from the midcourt. On waist high midcourt ball, I'm going to aggressively topspin it or, if I have to run up to it, I'm going to try to be precise with my approach shot placement above hitting it hard or with a lot of spin.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
This is what i do against player who dont have a forehand weapon.
But i would like to be even more effektiv and i think a suprise short skiddy slice would help a lot.
Again i usually play on clay.

How often would it be a surprise though? If you do it a couple of times, they'll know you can do it and it won't be a surprise any more. Once you get to a certain skill level, unless you can hit that shot with overwhelming speed, spin, and/or placement, your opponent will eventually get a read on it and effectively hit it back.

My opinion is that it's much better to work on the core fundamentals of your game rather than to try and learn these shots that you really only see on television. In your situation, I'd concentrate on three different things. Being above to hit a moderate underspin approach shot down the line. Being able to hit a moderate underspin approach shot deeper cross court. And being able to hit a drop shot from the same takeback. Then, make sure your volley and overhead are reliable. Not glamorous or flashy, but utterly effective.
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
Good advice. I know we would like to over power opponent and have shots for the highlights reel. But having a solid serve throwing variety at opponent and having a low error rate will win you a lot of matches.
 

toth

Hall of Fame
How often would it be a surprise though? If you do it a couple of times, they'll know you can do it and it won't be a surprise any more. Once you get to a certain skill level, unless you can hit that shot with overwhelming speed, spin, and/or placement, your opponent will eventually get a read on it and effectively hit it back.

My opinion is that it's much better to work on the core fundamentals of your game rather than to try and learn these shots that you really only see on television. In your situation, I'd concentrate on three different things. Being above to hit a moderate underspin approach shot down the line. Being able to hit a moderate underspin approach shot deeper cross court. And being able to hit a drop shot from the same takeback. Then, make sure your volley and overhead are reliable. Not glamorous or flashy, but utterly effective.
I would think the short skiddy slice is less risky than the dropshot, isn't?
And easier to disguise for sure.
Both are difficoult and risky shot for me though.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
I would think the short skiddy slice is less risky than the dropshot, isn't?
And easier to disguise for sure.
Both are difficoult and risky shot for me though.

Your question was about a mid-court ball, so you're only about 20 feet away from the net. A dropshot from that distance is **way** easier than trying to hit a skidding, low bouncing slice.

But more than that, in the situation where you move forward to a mid-court ball on your backhand, you want to make your opponent uncertain WHERE you are going to hit the ball. That's **way** more important than HOW you hit the ball, until you get to a high 4.5 level or somewhere around a UTR 9-10. A moderate underspin shot, hit to within 4-6 feet of your intended target, and can be hit either down the line, crosscourt into the corner, or as a drop shot, that you can make 90+% of the time, is going to be way more effective than a super-skiddy shot that you might miss often or otherwise can't aim as precisely as a more moderate shot. If you try to hit that kind of spin as you are moving forward, it's much more difficult to regain balance and get into the proper position to play the next shot unless you have the finely honed footwork of a high level player who has been at that level for a long time.
 

toth

Hall of Fame
Your question was about a mid-court ball, so you're only about 20 feet away from the net. A dropshot from that distance is **way** easier than trying to hit a skidding, low bouncing slice.

But more than that, in the situation where you move forward to a mid-court ball on your backhand, you want to make your opponent uncertain WHERE you are going to hit the ball. That's **way** more important than HOW you hit the ball, until you get to a high 4.5 level or somewhere around a UTR 9-10. A moderate underspin shot, hit to within 4-6 feet of your intended target, and can be hit either down the line, crosscourt into the corner, or as a drop shot, that you can make 90+% of the time, is going to be way more effective than a super-skiddy shot that you might miss often or otherwise can't aim as precisely as a more moderate shot. If you try to hit that kind of spin as you are moving forward, it's much more difficult to regain balance and get into the proper position to play the next shot unless you have the finely honed footwork of a high level player who has been at that level for a long time.
Thank you very much, this dropshot-low skidding slice comparison is a very important comparison for me!
One note yet:with my crosscourt slice i would rather step back than approach the net, even from the midcourt, even if it goes to the opponents weaker wing.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
Thank you very much, this dropshot-low skidding slice comparison is a very important comparison for me!
One note yet:with my crosscourt slice i would rather step back than approach the net, even from the midcourt, even if it goes to the opponents weaker wing.

Why would you want to move backwards? That's usually a losing move because you can't backpedal as fast as you can run forward and so any average groundstroke is likely to catch you out of position. If you had hit a good shot and forced your opponent to give you a weak midcourt ball, by hitting it and backing up, you've just turned your advantage to your disadvantage. If it's your opponent's weaker wing, then it's even more unlikely they'll be able to hit a DTL pass off your crosscourt approach. The only reason you wouldn't want to approach is if you don't have confidence in your volleys or overhead, in which case you need to work on your volley and overhead.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
Don't drop far back. If you slice to BH you often get a shorter slice back.

I find the opposite to be true. The guys I play with will consistently hit a deeper slice off a low ball than one above their waist, even if my low ball has heavy underspin. I think it's the combination of an underspin ball's tendency to float, combined with the fact that the opponent has to hit the ball upward to clear the net - that just makes the ball carry deep. Especially in my age group, if I want to get a short ball off a slice backhand, I'm more successful by hitting a higher bouncing ball than a lower bouncing ball.
 

toth

Hall of Fame
Why would you want to move backwards? That's usually a losing move because you can't backpedal as fast as you can run forward and so any average groundstroke is likely to catch you out of position. If you had hit a good shot and forced your opponent to give you a weak midcourt ball, by hitting it and backing up, you've just turned your advantage to your disadvantage. If it's your opponent's weaker wing, then it's even more unlikely they'll be able to hit a DTL pass off your crosscourt approach. The only reason you wouldn't want to approach is if you don't have confidence in your volleys or overhead, in which case you need to work on your volley and overhead.
I think it depends: if i can cover the net decent, i have confidence to approach, but if i leave a big open court to pass me at the net, i would rather stay back.
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
Yea I think I was filtering to my game. I m 56 so unless opp has monster fast shots I creep into NML because deep slices don't scare me and every second young guy will try and drop shot the old guy all day long.
 

Injured Again

Hall of Fame
I think it depends: if i can cover the net decent, i have confidence to approach, but if i leave a big open court to pass me at the net, i would rather stay back.

If you can hit your approach shot consistently to enough areas of the court, even the situations where you may leave a fairly open amount of court to pass it can still be to your advantage. It's all about keeping your opponent unsure about where you're going to go.
 
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