I would like your input... mid or mid plus for a jr. player?

donnayblack99

donnayblack99

Semi-Pro
I'm a part-time tennis coach and I use a mid 93" stick. I grew up on a PS 85 and dabbled in mid pluses, however I always end up going back to something 95" or less.

I've got several jrs. who are interested in learning to play with smaller head sized sticks... PS 85, POG mid, Volkl PB10 mid, etc. Unfortunately, I'm getting a lot of negative feedback from parents who aren't encouraging them to do so. Many parents are telling me I'm crazy to teach a kid on a smaller head size and/or a one handed backhand.

Everyone wants their kid to learn on a mid plus or larger Babolat, Head, etc. I'm interested in everyone's feedback out there on what they grew up using and what they prefer and why.

My philosophy is that if you can learn on a PS85 or a 90-93" mid, you can hit with anything. Parents are telling me their kids will be handicapped if they play with a small sweetspot, heavy stick... personally, I think the argument doesn't stick. :)
 
Oh my, now there's a question!

I think you need to take the parent's feedback on board along with the fact that only 2 players in the top 100 (Fed and Dimitrov) use Mids..

(yes, I know there are a lot of pj frames, but they are still pj of MPs!)

Ok, that said, there is no functional reason why it should be any harder to develop your student's game with a mid rather than a Mid Plus. I imagine you, like me, probably learned with a 65" wood frame that weighed 13 oz!

However, the game I learned is not the game I play and teach now, and that's another factor to consider.

Sure, Mids are fantastic for hard, flat groundstrokes and solid volleys, but they may not be quite as suited to a SW FH and 2HBH grinding game from the backcourt.

As my game has evolved over time, I have moved to larger head sizes myself and wouldn't go back.

I suggest letting your students hit with both when the time comes for them to progress to an 'adult frame' and see what they like best...

as for the one handeded backhand, seriously? bah, show 'em a video of Stan Warinka or Tommy Haas! (not Gasquet 'cos you can't teach that!)
 
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Timbo's hopeless slice said:
is nobody going to even argue with me?

what's this place coming to?
Click to expand...

Haha I'll bite!

At the facility I play at and do a bit of coaching the only kids who use mids are in U-16 and U-18. These kids started watching fed and have used the 90 since the N-Code/K-factor era. There are 3 that use it out of the roughly 30 kids in the program. They are all top provincial and national level players for their age groups.

That being said, almost every coach that I've talked to has disagreed that they should be using mids. At their level where competitiveness is everything (especially for those wanting to go play div 1) it just doesn't make sense to be using a smaller racket. Mids are a handicap at their level simply because they are easier to make errors with. While the kids that do use them, are generally attacking baseline players, IMO they would be better off using something along the lines of the 6.1 95 or the Prostaff 95. Just give that extra margin for error. They only reason that these kids should continue using them is because that's what they like. I've noticed that none of the U-12 or U-14 players use mids, and that's because the coaches are making them use tweeners while they are young to develop the set of skills to properly utilize them. (Lots of loop on groundies, massive consistency and reliable depth.)

In the programs I coach at a different club, no kids use mids. Everyone uses a tweener. My philosophy regarding it, is that consistency and depth are king, especially in juniors. If you can hit a deep, spinny ball 20 times in a row you are going to win a ton of matches. :razz:

-Fuji
 
I helped a few of my students make the switch to 27" racquets when it was time to do it, and I recommended the following racquets:

6.1 Team
PS 100
AP Team
PD Team/Lite

I just told them to demo those racquets and pick the one they liked most. I only cared that they started using HL racquets.

1 student picked the 6.1 Team (95) and coincidentally he's the only one with 1-handed backhand.
 
Interesting Fuji... I'm of the exact opposite philosophy. I think the kid who hits 20 loopy shots in a row will never develop into anything but a pusher. I'm teaching my kids to S&V or if they can't yet, at least to attack via chip and charging. This is where the mids shine. I learned how to play in the early 80s on Donnays, PS 85s and POG mids. Can you imagine an 8 year old swinging a near- 13oz POG or a PS 85? You never see that anymore.
That is why I think Sampras, Federer, MacEnore, Edberg, Becker, etc., were so dominant... the serve and volley and attacking ability is fundamental in this game. Plus none of them were hurt for any serious amounts of time. Look at the "grinders" or baseliners such as Agassi, Hewitt, Rafa, Safin... injuries from "grinding" are what or is what is going to put them into retirement. Plus, kids today, from what I've seen, don't know what to do when faced with an approach shot that's low and down the middle. With those clunky racquets, they can't slice defensively or get down low enough with a two HBH to pass. I see too many coaches teaching kids to offensively lob for winners.

As you can see, I still think the mids are the way to go... it just takes a more developed player to handle such a stick. Too bad they don't make 9-11 oz twiner frames that are 90-95" that teenagers can learn on.

Call me old fashioned...
 
Team10 said:
Robin Haase and maybe 1 or 2 more players. Jeeezzz get your facts right before posting.
Click to expand...

lol, who?

anyway, you get the idea :)

OP, if you have made up your mind, why ask the question?

I coach some nationally ranked Juniors and I don't see them having too much trouble with hard balls down the middle at any height..

do you honestly believe S & V is a viable strategy as a mainstay of a player's game at high levels in 2013?

I am not trying to be nasty, I really want to know.

Pat Rafter recently, when asked how he would like to be on the tour now, said:

Pat Rafter said:
'I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to handle these guys, the game has really moved on from my days on the circuit'.
Click to expand...
 
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donnayblack99 said:
Interesting Fuji... I'm of the exact opposite philosophy. I think the kid who hits 20 loopy shots in a row will never develop into anything but a pusher. I'm teaching my kids to S&V or if they can't yet, at least to attack via chip and charging. This is where the mids shine. I learned how to play in the early 80s on Donnays, PS 85s and POG mids. Can you imagine an 8 year old swinging a near- 13oz POG or a PS 85? You never see that anymore.
That is why I think Sampras, Federer, MacEnore, Edberg, Becker, etc., were so dominant... the serve and volley and attacking ability is fundamental in this game. Plus none of them were hurt for any serious amounts of time. Look at the "grinders" or baseliners such as Agassi, Hewitt, Rafa, Safin... injuries from "grinding" are what or is what is going to put them into retirement. Plus, kids today, from what I've seen, don't know what to do when faced with an approach shot that's low and down the middle. With those clunky racquets, they can't slice defensively or get down low enough with a two HBH to pass. I see too many coaches teaching kids to offensively lob for winners.

As you can see, I still think the mids are the way to go... it just takes a more developed player to handle such a stick. Too bad they don't make 9-11 oz twiner frames that are 90-95" that teenagers can learn on.

Call me old fashioned...
Click to expand...

No problem! It's good to have some healthy discussion!

I just don't think mids are viable for kids looking for D1 scholarships. The club I train at has had 4 kids in the past 2 years move to play Div 1 full ride down in the states, and I honestly don't think they could have done it without playing fully aggressive, grinding tennis throughout juniors. I'll post more later!

-Fuji
 
Team10 said:
Robin Haase and maybe 1 or 2 more players. Jeeezzz get your facts right before posting.
Click to expand...

First we have to define what a mid is. For what I read from the original posting he was defining it as 95 and smaller.

Robin Haase is playing with a head Youtek Prestige which is 98 so would be above the 95 limit.

There are fairly a lot more players in the top 100 who are playing with 1 95 or smaller.

Just a few from the top of my head, Nieminen, Sysling, Federer, Dimitrov, Kohlschreiber and there will more for sure.

If the mid limit is moved to 98. All the Heads played by Haas, Cilic and many others and the Wilson blade played by Monfils and Roanic and several other rackets will count. That will be a significant percentage.


Peter
 
Timbo's hopeless slice said:
as for the one handeded backhand, seriously? bah, show 'em a video of Stan Warinka or Tommy Haas! (not Gasquet 'cos you can't teach that!)
Click to expand...

The quarters of Paris this year had 50% of the players using one handed.

Philipp Kohlschreiber
Tommy Haas
Mikhail Youzhny
Stanislas Wawrinka
Richard Gasquet
Tommy Robredo
Nicolas Almagro
Roger Federer

Does not happen to often these days.

Peter
 
pvw_tf said:
First we have to define what a mid is. For what I read from the original posting he was defining it as 95 and smaller.

Robin Haase is playing with a head Youtek Prestige which is 98 so would be above the 95 limit.

There are fairly a lot more players in the top 100 who are playing with 1 95 or smaller.

Just a few from the top of my head, Nieminen, Sysling, Federer, Dimitrov, Kohlschreiber and there will more for sure.

If the mid limit is moved to 98. All the Heads played by Haas, Cilic and many others and the Wilson blade played by Monfils and Roanic and several other rackets will count. That will be a significant percentage.


Peter
Click to expand...

Midsize frames are capped at 93. And prestige mp is actually a 95.

I say let them play with what they enjoy, and if that's their decision to play with a mid, then so be it! I'd be livid if I had someone trying to force a racket on me.
 
MikeHitsHard93 said:
Midsize frames are capped at 93. And prestige mp is actually a 95.

I say let them play with what they enjoy, and if that's their decision to play with a mid, then so be it! I'd be livid if I had someone trying to force a racket on me.
Click to expand...

And that's why you're not a top ranking junior! ;) Just kidding of course.

Basically what happens for kids around here, is depending on who their sponsor is they get a to demo each of the main frames in the line up, and they pick and stay with that for pretty much their career. Each coach has a different sponsorship and depending on the students ranking sometimes they are influence by the coach, and sometimes not, but generally most of the juniors I know that are worth their salt have some time of sponsorship. Of course the coaches heavily influence what racket the student should be using from each brand, since they have basically built their game from the ground up for the most part.

-Fuji
 
I believe that whether or not a mid is more beneficial is not the only argument for not using them. (Now I know people will bash me for this because it doesn't really make a ton of sense. It's more of a gut feeling I guess) I feel like we need to preserve the variety of the tennis game. Nowadays, all I see is topspin baseline play with APD's and PD's. It's become like a virus that people will pick up tennis and immediately turn to this boring, monotonous style of play. I can't stand that the thing that makes tennis great is being forgotten, variety. For this reason, I am trying to implement the "classic" styles tennis whenever possible (Midsize frame, 1HBH, Volleys, etc). I really just don't want to see tennis ruined by modern methods. I mean I learned on an oversize with a 2HBH, but I really think that we need to preserve the things that make tennis great.
 
pvw_tf said:
First we have to define what a mid is. For what I read from the original posting he was defining it as 95 and smaller.

Robin Haase is playing with a head Youtek Prestige which is 98 so would be above the 95 limit.

There are fairly a lot more players in the top 100 who are playing with 1 95 or smaller.

Just a few from the top of my head, Nieminen, Sysling, Federer, Dimitrov, Kohlschreiber and there will more for sure.

If the mid limit is moved to 98. All the Heads played by Haas, Cilic and many others and the Wilson blade played by Monfils and Roanic and several other rackets will count. That will be a significant percentage.


Peter
Click to expand...

Robin uses the PT10 as far as I know, which is the Prestige Classic mould.

Mid is under 95 by the standard definition, and I believe that's the discussion that OP and the rest of the thread are discussing. :)

-Fuji
 
pvw_tf said:
First we have to define what a mid is. For what I read from the original posting he was defining it as 95 and smaller.

Robin Haase is playing with a head Youtek Prestige which is 98 so would be above the 95 limit.

There are fairly a lot more players in the top 100 who are playing with 1 95 or smaller.

Just a few from the top of my head, Nieminen, Sysling, Federer, Dimitrov, Kohlschreiber and there will more for sure.

If the mid limit is moved to 98. All the Heads played by Haas, Cilic and many others and the Wilson blade played by Monfils and Roanic and several other rackets will count. That will be a significant percentage.


Peter
Click to expand...

Robin Haase uses the Prestige Classic 600 which is midsize.
 
Fuji said:
Robin uses the PT10 as far as I know, which is the Prestige Classic mould.

Mid is under 95 by the standard definition, and I believe that's the discussion that OP and the rest of the thread are discussing. :)

-Fuji
Click to expand...

PT10 is more than Prestige Classic mould. It is the Prestige Classic. Its one in the same.
 
I would also like to jump into the discussion, because the kids/youths in my tennis club also tend to play a one handed backhand rather than a two handed backhand. I learned tennis with a rather classic approach and I'm really enjoying to teach them a one handed backhand, because you don't see it too often anymore.
And I personally let the kids take the decision wheter they would like to play 1h or 2h backhands, because they have to be happy with it, not the parents! Everbody favours and develops a different playstyle and I think we should help youths to to so.
 
It's not about the 1hbh for me, that's a no brainer, of COURSE you should teach it if the student shows the capacity.

I'm not sold on the mids though. Why make it harder for anyone??

Anyway, what's with the OP's username?? That ain't no mid!
( and I should know!)
 
vsbabolat said:
The Prestige Classic 600 is 89.5 sq.in.
Click to expand...

Ah okay, thanks for the confirmation. I knew Haase's racquet head size was small. Watching him play it looks like he has one of the smallest head sizes on tour, at least in the top 50. Great player.
 
To me the big advantage of mids is that they allow much more more maneuvarabilty for the same stability. In other words a midplus with the same level of stability and control would be much harder to move. This is advantageous if you are trying to hit big shots as often as possible, as you have lots of stability to help keep the big shots in and you have lots of maneuvarabilty so you can swing big with less time. However the price you pay is significantly reduced power, spin and forgiveness - so you have less margin to swing out on defensive and rallying shots - resulting in more mishits.

Unless a player is very aggressive and hitting huge shots whenever they get a chance (like Safin, Federer, or Sampras) then I would recommend a midplus, as a midplus offers a major advantage in all situations when you aren't trying to blast the ball. For juniors this is particularly true, as they have less power so exclusively attacking play is less favourable.
 
Ok, I should've made myself more clear... I consider a mid to be anything 95"and UNDER. I truly believe that today's game is turning into muscle heads just swinging out and bashing the ball back and forth until someone misses... ie., Rafa, Ferrer, DelPo, Berdych. Their games have NO character and no finesse! Even Murray and Djoker (who have much more variety) usually don't initiate a net attack unless prompted by a weak or short shot... they are just more gifted counter punchers with better variety then the rest of the field.

If you look at the classic players who are still on tour with OHBHs, Federer, Haas, Gasquet, Bryan Brothers, etc., I guarantee that they all could play with a 90 or a 93 frame because that is how they developed their one handers and that is why their backhands are pieces of art compared to a Rafa, or Delpo who have horrible form and just muscle the ball. If you were to stick a PS 85 in Rafa's hands, it would be shank time! The two handers on the tour couldn't handle a smaller head size because their form doesn't allow it. They've been coached around their equipment and not the other way around.

Look at a Edberg, Mac, Lendl or Wilander, for example. They used talent in conjunction with their PS 85, Dunlop200g and Rossignol F-200, and Kneissl... they all could have jumped to a POG 107 like Agassi or Chang. No, they developed their finesse and pinpoint games (which, by the way, were not power games but placement and geometric games) using 93" frames or less.

We need this back in today's junior players. We need a Sampras, Mac or Edberg who can hit groundstrokes and volleys with grace and variety, just not another guy that looks like a ball machine or backboard floating huge topspin shots back and forth. Christ, look at the women's game... I can't think of one women player who can serve and volley or even just volley at the highest of levels... it proves my point... DISCUSS...
 
Timbo's hopeless slice said:
It's not about the 1hbh for me, that's a no brainer, of COURSE you should teach it if the student shows the capacity.

I'm not sold on the mids though. Why make it harder for anyone??

Anyway, what's with the OP's username?? That ain't no mid!
( and I should know!)
Click to expand...

Funny... about my TAG name! I am a collector of Donnay frames and used that name when I initially signed up a couple of years ago for the TW board. I thought the Donnay Black 99 was the most beautiful frame around at that time. I never cared for the way it played. I've dabbled in midplusses and even the POG 107, however I've always gone back to the mid... I'm currently looking very hard at the Yonex vCore 89. :)
 
donnayblack99 said:
I consider a mid to be anything 95"and UNDER.
Click to expand...
You can consider whatever you want ;), but most of the people would agree that definition of of Mid is 93 max and that Mid Plus starts from 95.
The 94 fell out of the picture as there is so very few of them... So no, 95 is not a Mid.
It even helps avoid some confusion, as many of Head's Mid Plus, that are marked as nominal 98, are in fact 95...
 
GoudX said:
To me the big advantage of mids is that they allow much more more maneuvarabilty for the same stability.
Click to expand...
Where do you people get this scewed myth, that is mostly oposite from reality? It gets repeated on and on, so much that it is sickening...
Let's analyse the facts:

Maneuvrabillity = Weight, Swing Weight, Ballance, Mass Distribution
2 frames that have these parameters the same will be equally maneuvrable.
I neglected air drag, as the surface area increase from hoop size is negligent. It was proven that even more aerodnamical beam shapes do not significantly help the frames.

Stabillity = Weight, Swing Weight, Ballance, Mass Distribution AND Twist Weight
Given the 2 frames with first 4 parameters the same, the larger head frame will be more stable due to increased Twist Weight.

There is another hidden factor, in favor of the stabillity of the larger frame. The sweet spot is closer to the handle on the larger hoop, thus more stable.
 
donnayblack99 said:
Ok, I should've made myself more clear... I consider a mid to be anything 95"and UNDER. I truly believe that today's game is turning into muscle heads just swinging out and bashing the ball back and forth until someone misses... ie., Rafa, Ferrer, DelPo, Berdych. Their games have NO character and no finesse! Even Murray and Djoker (who have much more variety) usually don't initiate a net attack unless prompted by a weak or short shot... they are just more gifted counter punchers with better variety then the rest of the field.

If you look at the classic players who are still on tour with OHBHs, Federer, Haas, Gasquet, Bryan Brothers, etc., I guarantee that they all could play with a 90 or a 93 frame because that is how they developed their one handers and that is why their backhands are pieces of art compared to a Rafa, or Delpo who have horrible form and just muscle the ball. If you were to stick a PS 85 in Rafa's hands, it would be shank time! The two handers on the tour couldn't handle a smaller head size because their form doesn't allow it. They've been coached around their equipment and not the other way around.

Look at a Edberg, Mac, Lendl or Wilander, for example. They used talent in conjunction with their PS 85, Dunlop200g and Rossignol F-200, and Kneissl... they all could have jumped to a POG 107 like Agassi or Chang. No, they developed their finesse and pinpoint games (which, by the way, were not power games but placement and geometric games) using 93" frames or less.

We need this back in today's junior players. We need a Sampras, Mac or Edberg who can hit groundstrokes and volleys with grace and variety, just not another guy that looks like a ball machine or backboard floating huge topspin shots back and forth. Christ, look at the women's game... I can't think of one women player who can serve and volley or even just volley at the highest of levels... it proves my point... DISCUSS...
Click to expand...

Wth is this, Robin Haase apparently uses a 89.5 sq in racquet and has a two handed backhand. COINCIDENCE?! I think not, any player today COULD use a smaller head size but they choose not to. There are many payers that use a 95 and below so idk wtf you're talking about.

The other stuff is just bs. Rafa and Delpo having horrible form? Are you serious? Have you even seen them hit in person? They don't have horrible form AT ALL. If they had horrible form do you think they'd be in the top 5....IN THE WORLD?? Hell, Nadal has won 13 majors with "horrible form." You seriously need to re-evaluate technique and see how they're hitting, in person though would help see how they really play, not on tv.
 
I'll throw in my experience here. When I was a jr. player I used a technifibre 100" frame for several years (can't remember what it was, it was mostly red with some white.) And then played a six one 95 18x20 for a while. When Wilson's 2012 line came out I tried making a gradual switch from the six one 95 to the juice pro but never really got comfortable with taking a full swing with that racquet. I had to rest for a few months of my first season of college due to a knee injury, so when I started hitting again, I demoed the Pro Staff 90. It's a really sweet feeling frame, and after a couple of weeks I managed to get used to it and actually converted a couple of my friends off of Babolats (a pure storm ltd and a pure drive) onto wilson mids. Hitting with the frame, I never had an issue, and I think technically it really helped me. Where the 90 hurt my game was defensively. I was losing matches due to this inconsistency, and that frame made it tougher for me to play defensively. I later tried several 98" frames, as well as the Blade 104 for fun. I was surprised at how the 104" played more like a 100, and still had more feel than a lot of the 98" frames. Also, I was comfortable defensively with the frame, and felt like I had more of an ability to dictate the points.

I haven't regretted the switch to the 104" at all, because I haven't lost touch but have gained a lot in access to spin and forgiveness. I also added a lot of lead to the frame, so it's sw is probably around 330-340, and it weighs about 12 oz strung... almost as stable as the 90 for me. I don't regret trying mids though, because it probably helped my focus and precision.
 
Team10 said:
The other stuff is just bs. Rafa and Delpo having horrible form? Are you serious? Have you even seen them hit in person? They don't have horrible form AT ALL. If they had horrible form do you think they'd be in the top 5....IN THE WORLD?? Hell, Nadal has won 13 majors with "horrible form." You seriously need to re-evaluate technique and see how they're hitting, in person though would help see how they really play, not on tv.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Delpo has one of the best forehands in the game.
 
for the last 2 months I have had my students put their rackets down when they come to lessons and had them use wood for first 15-20 minutes, (I hand feed on the same side of the court), they hit groundstrokes. This is to get them to change their swing lines thru, instead of around using their wrist. It took 2 minutes to adjust back to their modern rackets but their strokes were 100% better. Worked wonders on volleys.

I can see them maybe switching to a Mid-Plus but not to a mid for high level players at this point.
 
S&V still has a place in today's game.

Just that kids are taught to worry about win loss % from an early age, so naturally gravitate towards defensive games with lighter and bigger sticks. Obviously enough of them survive and hang around for a few years plying their trade.
 
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