Ideal ball toss location for different serves

This has probably been discussed many times, but various videos out there use different locations, so I am hoping to get some opinions on ideal location in terms of where the ball would bounce for different types of serves (flat/kick/slice) if you let it fall to the ground after tossing (without actually hitting the ball)?

To illustrate this point, Will H. (FYB) in the serve stance puts a racquet on the ground with the racquet handle at his foot and the racquet head in the court pointing straight ahead at (i.e perpendicular to) the net and lets the ball bounce on the racquet after tossing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YxgjV1Dtls&feature=relmfu&t=1m20s)

Related information and question regarding ball toss for flat serve:
1.1/ FYB: Toss bounces right on the strings of the racquet about 2 feet directly in front of your front foot. But if you are turning your body
1.2/ Another source recommends placing the head of the racquet pointing diagonally towards the left net post.
1.3/ Yet others (tennisone) say that the tossing arm has to be parallel to the baseline, and this actually helps because while tossing the ball, you are turning your upper body away from the net to coil it. But this makes it harder to place the ball where the above recommendations are, no?


I do understand that some people can hit different serves with the same toss, but that is another discussion.
 

rufusbgood

Semi-Pro
I will be watching this thread with interest. The only comment I can make is that in Will's video the handle of the racquet is mostly out of the court. So a toss hitting the center of the racquet head is perhaps 1' inside the court, not 2'.
 
tennistoss.jpg


[Thanks SystemicAnomaly for posting this picture before.]

For your toss, you can keep your tossing arm "parallel to the baseline"*, but the ball should end up at the end of the J toss in the above location relative to your head to hit the different types of serves.

For more information on how you get the ball to the correct position, check out the following thread on the J toss: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=401997

Good tossing videos to put it all together:
*Federer Murray Haas & more ball toss common threads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIF-UaRUd6k&playnext=1&list=PLC4B1814186A2E18C
Tennis Serve Toss - How to Hold the Ball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8kynEzufNE&feature=related
Tennis Serve Tossing Motion Tempo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZp90h-Ar8&feature=relmfu


Tennis pros have learned how to lean their upper body to disguise what their serve will be, so they can toss to nearly the same location, but lean to get the tennis ball into the proper position. I only mention this to you because it may seem confusing trying to get their tossing location from video for the different types of serves. For you, forget about getting this fancy for a long time, if ever.
 
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LuckyR

Legend
At the higher levels, you would be able to hit all of the serves to all parts of the court with the same toss so you aren't telegraphing your intentions to the receiver.
 

6-2/6-4/6-0

Semi-Pro
Exactly. You want to hit your serve with the closest to the same toss and same motion possible regardless of where you are hitting and the spin you are putting on the ball. Do so is worth an extra 10mph on your serve speed because the receiver has no idea what's coming to them until it's well on the way...
 

ATP100

Professional
At the higher levels, you would be able to hit all of the serves to all parts of the court with the same toss so you aren't telegraphing your intentions to the receiver.


You can teach this to beginners. (IF THEY DON"T KNOW ANY
DIFFERENCE)
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
On thing I've noticed.....
Players with high tosses seem to telegraph the kind of serves they hit.
Players with lower tosses can hide it better, not allowing the receiver to read and process the information.
And of course, players can not only adjust their swing, but they can adjust their position once the ball is tossed.
That said, only some players mix their serves between twists and wide slices effectively. The toss location, swing, and body position are basically opposites, so it's readable.
 

Larrysümmers

Hall of Fame
My first and second serve toss is the same place. I found a happy medium toss. also my second serve is pretty aggressive.
 

spacediver

Hall of Fame
I've recently been experimenting with a more parallel tossing arm, using a technique described in one of the grasshopper dude's later videos, and have had great success. The key to tossing out ahead with a parallel arm is to bring the arm in towards you slightly so that it starts out pointing even less than parallel - this allows a natural forward component of the toss.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
At the higher levels, you would be able to hit all of the serves to all parts of the court with the same toss so you aren't telegraphing your intentions to the receiver.

Thank you! That's what I do. I set up, toss, and turn as if I'm going to the right side of the service box (to a righty's backhand), every time. I can change it up and hit to the middle, or to the left side, of the box by coming out of my turn (my coil) sooner. Generally, balls to the right side of the box are hit with kick, balls to the left are hit with slice. But, I can vary that if I need to.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Well, what level ARE you?
If you can hit all the serves to every location, you'd better be at least a 5.0.
Sometimes, what we want to do and what we actually do are 2 different things.
Even Fed doesn't hide his twist serves. His opponent's know it's coming, but sometimes can't do much with it. His moderate height toss and his ability to hit a top/slice out wide helps neutralize his lack of pure disquise.
 

LuckyR

Legend
Not necessarily. Just because you can hit serves to both sides of the box, doesn't mean that the serves themselves are devastating. Nor that you can get them in reliably.

If you think about it, if the ball position is not a variable, then you just have to compensate for that with an exagerated motion of either your body or arm or both so that your relationship to the ball is the same as if you tossed the ball to the "prefered" spot.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Actually, I think so.
Anyone who says he can put the serve into exactly where he wants it, and can disquise it with the same toss, providing he really can, would be easily better than any 4.5 level of tennis. At least that part of his game.
I can hit any serve to any spot, full speed for me, but not only do I miss quite a few of the of the first ones, but tend to tip my opponent where I"m planning to serve. I'm a player falling from above 4.5 down near 3.5 in singles, with my serve the best weapon.
I doubt any 4.0 can totally disquise his serves, hit them decently, and hit his spots. Heck, few 5.0's can do that.
 

LuckyR

Legend
Actually, I think so.
I doubt any 4.0 can totally disquise his serves, hit them decently, and hit his spots. Heck, few 5.0's can do that.

There is a world of difference between: being able to hit every serve off of the same toss to either side of the box and "totally" disguising your serve. I was posting about the former, I don't know how the latter got into the conversation.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Well, what level ARE you?
If you can hit all the serves to every location, you'd better be at least a 5.0.
Sometimes, what we want to do and what we actually do are 2 different things.
Even Fed doesn't hide his twist serves. His opponent's know it's coming, but sometimes can't do much with it. His moderate height toss and his ability to hit a top/slice out wide helps neutralize his lack of pure disquise.

Were you asking me? You didn't quote a post, so it's not clear who you're talking to.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Same toss for wide slice servces, flat fast serves, and opposite kicking twist serves? That's disquise right there.
We KNOW your swing has to be slightly adjusted for each serve, but it's too late for the reciever to pick up, so it doesn't count.
So if you toss is the same, your opponent cannot pick up your serve direction IN TIME to make a difference, then it's DISQUISED by your toss location. Make sense?
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I always wonder what level the poster's are when they reply with their posts.
For example, I say I'm a dead 4.0 going 6' under.
One of my real antagonists, Aphex, well, he's less than half. He posted his vid. We saw.
Data and Devil I haven't seen, so I can't take them seriously.
If Ton or Jonny raked me across the face, I'd know it's for real, because I"ve seen vids of them playing.
Zapvor is always belittling me. You've seen his vid of him serving. His comments mean nothing.
MofP has a strange high place origin. His game proves he can if he wants.
TennisBalla is sooo low key, you'd never know he was an inch from making it.
ClintThompson was one of the most conceited guys I"ve ever communicated with. He backed it up with some solid Q play, about what I did in the late '70's.
So it's always informative to get an idea of the skills of the various posters.
 

Roy125

Professional
I find it unusual how the topspin slice serve's ideal toss is to the right but most of the pros I watch toss it to the left...
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Are you sure they're not hitting twist serves?
Jonny seems to hit every serve with a toss to his left.
 

Roy125

Professional
Well, they're right handers who're serving second serves at the deuce side. So I doubt they're doing twist serves. However, the toss still seems to be the same place at the twist though.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
IF, which I'm not, a good player, being right handed, I'd toss left on duece court to twist wide to another righties backhand, up the T, on the majority of my second serves.
I'd throw in a few right tosses, to slice wide out of the doubles court, at times for variety.
But consensus says I'm not, so disregard what I say.
 

papa

Hall of Fame
Exactly. You want to hit your serve with the closest to the same toss and same motion possible regardless of where you are hitting and the spin you are putting on the ball. Do so is worth an extra 10mph on your serve speed because the receiver has no idea what's coming to them until it's well on the way...

Well, I'm with you here. The toss has to be pretty close to the same especially on the first serve - second serve, everyone knows pretty much what to expect so its not quite as important.

I also really agree with Lee on this because a high toss can really telegraph what's coming.

With practice, you can hit most serves with the same toss - not exactly accurate but the toss should not vary dramatically.
 

LuckyR

Legend
Same toss for wide slice servces, flat fast serves, and opposite kicking twist serves? That's disquise right there.
We KNOW your swing has to be slightly adjusted for each serve, but it's too late for the reciever to pick up, so it doesn't count.
So if you toss is the same, your opponent cannot pick up your serve direction IN TIME to make a difference, then it's DISQUISED by your toss location. Make sense?

That's my point though, time. Unless you have a lot of pace, average players (well below 5.0) are going to have enough time to react (that is not start in a direction before the serve is struck based on toss cues) to serves and return them successfully, especially in singles. So hitting every serve off of the same toss is not an automatic ticket to enough wins to vault you above 4.5
 

Nellie

Hall of Fame
For most players, disguising your serve is of little value - most players go for a flattish first serve and then hit some type of spinning second serve. Most people hit the same second serve over and over because that is a consistency shot that you don't tinker with.

For people who change their second serves, I can see top-slice from a kick almost instantly from the path of the ball and from where the serve is placed. I do struggle with a pure top spin versus a twist serve.

Now, If I was John Isner, I would worry about disguise since he is going to win the point if you guess wrong. Anyone else, and I would think that you have more important things to practice.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
In the same vane, I find disquise only a tiny part of the service strategy. Many times, I can call out where and what kind of serve, actually produce it, and the returner can still miss, or hit a weak return. It happens to me also, knowing where and how the serve is hit is only HALF the ballgame. We still gotta move and execute OUR shot.
Better to be able to hit the shot, where we want it, and knowing where most of the time for the most effectiveness.
Leave the disquise for the 5.5's and betters. We'd do well to just hit our shots.
 
I always wonder what level the poster's are when they reply with their posts.
For example, I say I'm a dead 4.0 going 6' under.
One of my real antagonists, Aphex, well, he's less than half. He posted his vid. We saw.
Data and Devil I haven't seen, so I can't take them seriously.
If Ton or Jonny raked me across the face, I'd know it's for real, because.

WTFRACK! Now you're going to be one of the losers who sour grapes about me in threads I'm not in (this was a totally random read...was thinking of giving some advice).

Listen, BUD...you saw my challenge to you (and so did a ton of other posters no doubt). Just say the word.
 

LuckyR

Legend
I don't agree every 4.5 or 5.0 has a weak enough serve to give the returner tons of time.

I agree with this sentance, but which contrary comment are you addressing?

This is a pretty simple concept. If you have enough pace on your serve to get the ball by someone who doesn't have a "jump" on the return, then in my experience you probably are a 5.0 or so at least. If a player can react to where your serve is going (they don't have a read on the serve ahead of time) and you can't ace them, then you are like the >95% of players who are below and perhaps well below 5.0

Therefore obtaining the skill to hit all of your serves off of the same toss is NOT an automatic ticket to 5.0 and above.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Nothing is automatically in tennis.
However, if you took the time to perfect your toss exactly the same, and can hit every serve to every spot every time, you'd WOULD be a pretty good player, wouldn't you?
Just the amount of time standing at the baseline to practice your tosses and swings, you might hit once every 3 sessions, and that would be more than enough to make it past a 4.5 level.
Have you ever seen someone with a GREAT serve, placement, and consistency who could not hit a groundstroke or volley? I haven't. EVERY guy with a great serve also plays the game at a decent level.
You can't practice just the serve without hitting some other strokes.
 
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