If a 3.5 is a 3.5, and a 4.0 is a 4.0, why have leagues that exclude younger players?

[g4driver]

My beef with the current USTA system is this:

I'm 43, and lost two matches last fall to folks older than me (one guy was 62, my hero, and he was bumped to 4.0.) Good on him for being that fast and that consistent. So as a 43 year old, I played and beat every player younger than myself, but lost to two players who were older than myself. So what does this say about age? It's merely a number and not indicative of performance. But according to the USTA, their NTRP rating system isn't enough to "protect" Seniors and Super Seniors from younger players, so the USTA adds an additional level of protection from the younger players would beat and destroy these older players in match play. (Yes, I am rolling my eyes as the only players beating me are seniors)

I'm not going to beat a 55 year 5.0 player. So why can't I play in a "Senior" 8.0 Mixed Doubles League that plays on Saturday? Because the USTA is jacked up that's why! So does the USTA computer know the difference between the birthday of two 4.0 men who are 48 and 52, if they have played each other twice (once in the spring, and once in the fall) in 4.0 singles match play, and each one by the exact scores thus have identical records? So in USTA Adult League Play these men are equals, but not on the USTA Senior circuit. The 48 year old is excluded. Why?

Here the question I want the USTA to address: If the league is a NTRP league, why have an age restriction?

1)Isn't the NTRP the parameter to ensure players are equally matched, and not an age, or has the USTA inadvertently made a fatal error, and let the cat out of the bag that the NRTP system is grossly flawed?
2)Or is an NTRP rating accurate and the Senior and Super Senior Leagues merely a way to give seniors more playing opportunity at the expense of 49 and younger players?
3)Or maybe a little of both? Maybe it's time to change the math behind the NTRPs and the way the USTA sets up their leagues.

If an 8.0 Mixed Senior League plays during the weekend, why can't a 48, 43, or 38 year old play who works and travels out of town during the week play in this league? Isn't 8.0 Mixed really 8.0 Mixed.

I contend you have a NTRP rating level. Your age doesn't matter, if the NTRP rating is accurate. So which is more lopsided a 22 year old versus a 49 year old? or a 45 year old versus a 52 year old? The first is 27 years age difference, the latter only a seven year difference. But the 52 year old needs the protection from the 45 year old because equal NTRP ratings isn't sufficient according to the USTA.

My suggestion:

1) Fix the NTRP rating system, by hiring some mathematicians to completely overhaul the current system commencing in the fall of 2011. Let the 2011 Fall Ratings only count for the purpose of establishing new ratings and new teams for the Spring of 2012.

2) Adjust the Leagues to Weekday (Days & Nights) and Weekend allowing let anyone who qualifies at a given rating to play in that league. You would still have three leagues. The current Senior and Super Seniors would be able to play in all three leagues if they wanted to. 18-49 year olds who are independently wealthy and those don't work a day or night job could do the same. :smile::smile:

That's right folks! Get rid of Adult, Senior and Super Senior Leagues and simply the USTA format to Weekday Day, Weekday Night and Weekend Leagues. Have your Sectional and State for all three leagues. You open the field of available players and include or exclude based on level of play, not by age. You can play on weekdays during the day or at night (or play in both), or play on the weekends, or play in all three leagues. Currently, only the Super Seniors can play in all three leagues, while anyone under 49 can only play in one league. Currently the majority of players still working have the least options available for league play.

The USTA can't have it both ways.

Either the NTRP are accurate and Senior and Super Seniors don't need their own league, or the NTRP's aren't accurate and the system needs to be overhauled. Am I the only one who sees the flawed logic behind an NTRP system that then excludes players based on age?

When I turn 50 and 60, I will feel the same way. I feel an accurate rating should define my level of ability not my age. Anyone else feel this way?

 

[Sumo]

At some point they have to account for diminishing physical abilities.
You just happen to be outside of the arbitrary age they set. Get older or get over it.

 

[spot]

Because people want to play in leagues that have age restrictions. I think that adult leagues are more popular because 17 year old highschool kids are excluded. Senior leagues are popular because people would prefer not to play against significantly younger players. People playing in junior leagues would prefer to not play against Adults. There are plenty of leagues that you are allowed to play in- I dont get who you would ***** because there are leagues where people would prefer not to play against you.

 

[g4driver]

At some point they have to account for diminishing physical abilities. Why?

I hope I never agree with you. Decreased physical abilities are easily overcome by the mind and the will to get better. I have two titanium screws in my lower back after two back surgeries in 2008, including a fusion. I will never be as fast as I was in 2007, nor as flexible. But more importantly, my physical abilities will never be an excuse for me. I will become a better player every year as long as I am a student of the game and willing to learn and practice.

The 62 year old who beat me was nearly as fast as I was. He was more consistent and the better player. That's why I said he was my hero. He is a role model for anyone that plays, older or younger. Not because he beat me, but because he refused to let any age or excuse get in his way of winning. My hats off to him!

 

[g4driver]

Because people want to play in leagues that have age restrictions. I think that adult leagues are more popular because 17 year old highschool kids are excluded. Good point. Senior leagues are popular because people would prefer not to play against significantly younger players. So an Adult 43 year old vs a 21 year old (22 year difference) is less significant than a 52 vs a 43 year old (11 year difference)? People playing in junior leagues would prefer to not play against Adults. There are plenty of leagues that you are allowed to play in Please name them for me then - I dont get who you would ***** ??? I don't understand your comment as it was filtered because there are leagues where people would prefer not to play against you.

I appreciate the respectable responses even if you disagree with me.

Please inform me how and where I can play USTA during the weekends, if I travel for a living during the week and can only play in leagues on weekends, if in my metropolitan area the only leagues on the weekends are Senior Leagues?

The National USTA Headquarters was interested in my comments and thoughts after I called to inquire about the current national system. After listening to me, the lady asked me to email them with my comments and suggestions. The lady I spoke with was a Senior, understood my points, and specially understood my point that the current system gives the most opportunity to Super Seniors(60+), then Seniors (50-59), then lastly Adults (18-49). She told me the USTA would not like to hear the fact I am excluded from USTA leagues in my area due to our local league schedules if I wanted to play, and would be more than willing to look at my suggestions.

She also recognized that many players in the Adult League worked, and had less opportunities than those who play in Senior and Super Senior leagues. She asked for my name, city and gave me her name and told me she would forward my comments and suggestions to a committee.

As a senior who worked for the USTA, she was much more polite than the "Get older, or get over it" comment by Sumo. I prefer to address problems and see if there is an alternative, rather than give up so easily like Sumo suggested.

v/r

 

[travlerajm]

I think they should allow junior players to play adult leagues, but they should have a fast trigger on the bump to account for the rapid improvement most juniors will make over the course of a season.

 

[Sumo]

Why?

An old guy with great strokes who can't move is not going to enjoy playing down with people who lack consistency. It is one more way to create a level playing field.
And as Spot said, playing against those your own age makes the social aspect of league tennis better.

I appreciate the respectable responses even if you disagree with me.

Please inform me how and where I can play USTA during the weekends, if I travel for a living during the week and can only play in leagues on weekends, if in my metropolitan area the only leagues on the weekends are Senior Leagues?

The National USTA Headquarters was interested in my comments and thoughts after I called to inquire about the current national system. After listening to me, the lady asked me to email them with my comments and suggestions. The lady I spoke with was a Senior, understood my points, and specially understood my point that the current system gives the most opportunity to Super Seniors(60+), then Seniors (50-59), then lastly Adults (18-49). She told me the USTA would not like to hear the fact I am excluded from USTA leagues in my area due to our local league schedules if I wanted to play, and would be more than willing to look at my suggestions.

She also recognized that many players in the Adult League worked, and had less opportunities than those who play in Senior and Super Senior leagues. She asked for my name, city and gave me her name and told me she would forward my comments and suggestions to a committee.

As a senior who worked for the USTA, she was much more polite than the "Get older, or get over it" comment by Sumo. I prefer to address problems and see if there is an alternative, rather than give up so easily like Sumo suggested.

v/r

Your original post did not come off as you looking for alternatives. It came off as you complaining about the world not conforming to you and your schedule.

And I'm seeing a lot of alternatives you could follow.
- Get a new job that doesn't require travel.
- Drive further to an adult league that plays on weekend
- Do what you need to in order to get an adult league started in your area on the weekend. If you live in a metropolitan area, there will be others with scheduling conflicts.
- Play a non-USTA league.

The alternatives you have suggested so far only include work being done by other people at their expense in order to change a system that works for the vast majority of players.

So because you revised your first post, so will I.

Get older, get over it, or do something about it.

 

[raiden031]

Because there are too many old snobs who don't want to play tennis with people who they can't relate to on a social level.

 

[dizzlmcwizzl]

I have many years to become a senior but I have a similiar interest in playing tennis with more seniors. Not because of scheduling conflicts or lack of opportunity but because I frequently find the tennis better.

In general, the 4.0 senior tennis player's game is more controlled, and less sporadic. Usually you know what you are going to get with an established 4.0 senior man. Additionally, I learn more by trying to play within myself rather than to attempt to outhit 20 year olds that are trying to figure out how to play.

However, I dont want to open seniors up to everybody ... just me. That way I could get mine!

 

[g4driver]

An old guy with great strokes who can't move is not going to enjoy playing down with people who lack consistency. I never suggested that he should play down. You are the one suggesting it, as you don't think older players can play with the same NTRP rating competively against younger players. The doubles players who win more matches on my USTA men's team are the oldest guys on my team, consistently beating younger opponents. It is one more way to create a level playing field. Granted as you get older, you will get slower and lose power, so please tell me how someone 39-49 year old is as competitive physically if playing a 21 year old? Please go ahead, enlighten me.

And as Spot said, playing against those your own age makes the social aspect of league tennis better. So a 21 year is closer in age to me at 43 or other 40 year olds than a 51-59 year old? Hopefully, you are not a match teacher.

Your original post did not come off as you looking for alternatives. Ok fair enough. Thankfully the USTA understands their is a growing group of people not happy with the current system, and did a survey about the age divisions last summer. The USTA specifically understands the 49-21 year group is too large, while the 50-59 group is too small. It came off as you complaining about the world not conforming to you and your schedule. Ok, fair enough again. But my comments to Jeanne at the USTA Headquarters were listened to as valid points. The seniors on my adult team, don't see me as a complainer either. They understand the lack of options for people who do work and travel. The problem with the internet, it there is no tone of voice in my statements.

And I'm seeing a lot of alternatives you could follow.
- Get a new job that doesn't require travel. Give up a great job in the worse recession of our nation to play tennis for fun on the weekend. Hold your breath Sumo.
- Drive further to an adult league that plays on weekend That's an option, if the next option doesn't work.
- Do what you need to in order to get an adult league started in your area on the weekend. I'm working on that. If you live in a metropolitan area, there will be others with scheduling conflicts. I live in an area larger than Savannah and know of several players in the same boat. No options but to drive 2+ hours to play on the weekends.

- Play a non-USTA league. There aren't any men's non-USTA leagues in my area. Use to play ALTA. Great option if in the metro Atlanta area, but I'm not

The alternatives you have suggested so far only include work being done by other people at their expense in order to change a system that works for the vast majority of players. And how do you know the USTA system works for the majority of players? Do you have any polling data among active tennis players? I know plenty of tennis players who don't play USTA at all, as the USTA league don't work for them. Five other guys (all under 50) who I hit with regularly, don't play USTA at all, but they play a lot of tennis. Four of these players told me, that don't care for USTA leagues for various reasons. Just because the current system is in place, doesn't mean it works for the majority of players. It simple means this: the USTA has players in their leagues. Your statement is simply your opinion. It might appear to work for the majority of players, as the system works for those on a team. There are plenty of folks in Atlanta choosing ALTA over the USTA leagues when they play league tennis.

So because you revised your first post, so will I. I didn't revise my first post, I revised my second post, as I forgot to include the word "I" in the first sentence between "hope" and "never". "I hope I never agree with you". After reading your next, post, I am adamant, I won't.

Get older, get over it, or do something about it. I already have, and will continue to try to change the system to include more players, not exclude more people.

The most likely thing I see the USTA doing is radically changing the age brackets in the Senior Leagues to include more players. A ten year player range (50-59) is a small age range compared to the number of players in the 18-49 Adult League and the Super Senior League. I expect the Senior League to expand down to at least 45 in the near future to allow more access for more players.

 

[bodieq]

Interesting topic, and I think you make some good observations. However, I think the age and physical ability component can become more of a factor in the higher divisions (4.5 - 5.0+) AND considering once the age threshhold gets up there (i.e. not just 50'ish year olds). In my section/area, there are players in their 60's+ that have maintained a 4.5 rating and play on "senior" 4.5 leagues (which is only doubles) but realistically cannot be competitive in regular 4.5 adult league in "Singles." Plus, I've seen 60-year olds roster onto adult-league 4.5 teams but have trouble getting enough playing time even in doubles, because the more competitive playoff-bound 4.5 teams have a decent filling of younger former college and junior-college players. So the rating system is not perfect and not all players are equal even within one rating-division. A lot of the 60-year olds who compete at 4.5 were probably former 5.0+ level players back in the day, and still have very solid stroke-mechanics but maybe now limited in certain mobility and match-endurance (which would be most glaringly shown if they were to play 4.5-5.0 singles now). So the senior leagues are another avenue for older USTA players, and I think it's great. Now, in terms of why the USTA decides to set the "senior" age requirement threshhold at age "50 or so," I dunno....

 

[g4driver]

Because there are too many old snobs who don't want to play tennis with people who they can't relate to on a social level.

I think you are correct, although not all seniors fell this way. I regularly play with the seniors and super seniors on my team. They call me on the weekends to play, since they know I give them great practice and we mutually respect each other. They are all better doubles players than me, and I use the time to get better by watching and learning from them.

The only thing that is constant is change.

 

[g4driver]

Bodieq,

You make a very good case without being a jerk or telling me to quit my job and get a job that doesn't require travel.

I appreciate your comments.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I hope I never agree with you. Decreased physical abilities are easily overcome by the mind and the will to get better. I have two titanium screws in my lower back after two back surgeries in 2008, including a fusion. I will never be as fast as I was in 2007, nor as flexible. But more importantly, my physical abilities will never be an excuse for me. I will become a better player every year as long as I am a student of the game and willing to learn and practice.

Well, bully for you!

As for me, this aging thing is kicking my butt. There is no amount of positive thinking that is going to make my joints feel any better, and there is not enough Advil on the planet to make me feel and move the way I did a decade ago. Don't even get me started on the deterioration in vision. My tennis skills are going to decline because of age; that's just a fact.

I feel like I am running a race against time that I will never win. The last thing I need is a constant reminder of that when I take on someone decades younger -- especially given that younger people can be a bit disrespectful when they see they will be playing someone much older. Read TT a while, and you can see the contempt that some (not all!) young folks have.

So let's continue to have senior divisions for those who want that.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go ice both knees and my wrist.

 

[doubleshack]

The OP puts together some logical points. Just curious, why stop at age though. Couldn't those points also be used to argue that sex should not be an option? Eliminate the distinction between men/women/mixed and just have leagues.

Personally, I don't have an issue with leagues built around sex or age. Rather then feeling excluded, I feel they are trying to include people who might not otherwise play.

 

[g4driver]

Well, bully for you!

As for me, this aging thing is kicking my butt. There is no amount of positive thinking that is going to make my joints feel any better, and there is not enough Advil on the planet to make me feel and move the way I did a decade ago. Don't even get me started on the deterioration in vision. My tennis skills are going to decline because of age; that's just a fact.

Cindy,

I have read many of your posts, and appreciate your comments, but don't let your age get you down. We are all growing older, but it is how we age that matters most. The alternative to getting older is much, much worse. :sad: I don't consider myself young or old, but relate more to those with mortgages, and jobs.

When I had my second back surgery in 2008, I refused to believe or accept the fact, that my injury or my age would slow me down. The most important thing I did, was get out of bed every morning determined to have a good day, no matter have bad my back hurt. I walked less than 24 hours after both the first and second surgery, determine to leave the hospital. I was determined to get back on the tennis courts, my kayak, and back to work. I took a lot of Alleve, and couldn't walk far or stand long on many days, but I refused to accept the injury as a disability. I couldn't work, play tennis, run, or even cut the grass in my yard. So I volunteered, giving tours of gardens. Anything to get outside and to make me stopping reading or watching Discover and Nat Geo.

My neighbor is a Rheumatologist. She deals with people who are in constant pain. To me it sounds like a horrible job, trying to console people with constant pain. 99.9% of her patients complain about the pain, but she told me about this little old lady who never complained at all. The lady had severe arthritis, but simply smiled most of the time. She struggled to walk, but walk she did. She refused to use a wheelchair, instead using a walker. She said her patient gave her inspiration every time she saw the little lady. She inspired me too.

I haven't ran since 2007, but in Dec 2009, ran a 1.5 mile in 10:30 without trying. There are plenty of people younger than me, without back injuries who can't break the 12:30 mark. But do they eat well, exercise or do they circle the front spots in parking lots like a vulture thinking walking an extra hundred feet will hurt them? I think the latter.

I told my neighbor, I think my positive outlook was a bigger factor in my recovery than any medicine. I went to PT and did what the doctor told me to do, and didn't do things he told me not to do. I have my life back! I am playing better tennis at 43 than I was a 23. And I will play better at 53. Why? Because I believe it! I truly do. The 62 year old who beat me last fall is certainly an inspiration to me, and I certainly mean no disrespect to you or any seniors, and I play with one guy who is nearly 70.

TT posters have quickly brought of very valid points shooting holes in my idea, so maybe the best option in my second letter to the USTA would be to expand the age range of the smallest group, the Seniors. Most of you shot holes very politely, and for that, I thank you. Then there are some grumpy folks on here, but I will quickly forget those folks, and move on.

Currently, the USTA expects a 49 year old to be able to compete against a 19 year old player at the same level, but the USTA doesn't expect a 59 year old to be able to compete against a 49 year old at the same level. Does this make any sense? It doesn't to me.

So which is more lopsided two 22 year olds versus a two 45 year olds in a Adult doubles match? or a two 45 year olds versus two 52 year olds in Adult doubles ? The first is 27 years age difference, the latter only a seven year difference. Currently the USTA seems to think that 48 year olds are more competitively aligned with an 18 year old, rather someone who is 58 years olds. Where did the USTA come up with the age ranges for their current leagues?

Smile CindySphinx, trust me, it's not going to hurt you, and it might make you feel better.

 

[raiden031]

The OP puts together some logical points. Just curious, why stop at age though. Couldn't those points also be used to argue that sex should not be an option? Eliminate the distinction between men/women/mixed and just have leagues.

Personally, I don't have an issue with leagues built around sex or age. Rather then feeling excluded, I feel they are trying to include people who might not otherwise play.

As I said, many don't want to play tennis with those who they can't relate to on a social level.

Well I think seniors rules the land in USTA tennis. They have freakin NTRP leagues for every decade starting at 50! I know seniors who play 6-7 times a week!

The problem I have is 1) there are more leagues for seniors than there are for adults, and 2) there would be an outcry if a league was created that only included adults between the ages of 18-49, because the seniors would cry age discrimination.

 

[g4driver]

Rather then feeling excluded, I feel they are trying to include people who might not otherwise play.

Thanks Doubleshack, but I'm the one feeling excluding here. SuperSeniors have the most inclusion of anyone is USTA, then the Seniors. Adults 18-49 are only eligible for one league, not three like the Super Seniors. Raiden031 has a point. Adults (18-49) have the least options, and generally the least flexible schedules, with some Super Seniors playing 4-6 days a week on three or more teams.

But according to Sumo, I should quit my job and not travel, and I'm a complainer. Sumo, if you're still reading, I would love to read your answers to my questions. In the meantime, here's an reply I just received from the USTA Headquarters in New York.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear xxxx,

Much of what you talk about is being looked at by the League committee right now. Through the survey results and focus groups we are examining the possible age group changes.

I will pass along your very well thought out email to the League committee.

Thanks for your support of USTA League.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[doubleshack]

The senior leagues in our district, often can not field enough teams for a league. The team that signs up just goes to sectionals. So, even though the super seniors in our area can sign up for 3 leagues, in reality, the session often consists of just an open. That is probably part of the reason it does not seem like a big deal. However, I'm sure the demographics are different throughout the area, so it may seem a bit more unfair in other areas.

This is an interesting thread, it is challenging something that has 'always been this way'. Even the survey alluded to in g4driver's post was only a tweak to the system, not a real change. It was just discussing modifying the ages and other subtle differences. However, it pretty much left in the fact the older you are, the more leagues you can enter.

What about decade leagues. Leave open as any age, but then have decade leagues, similar to tournaments. So, no more seniors/super seniors, but 20's, 30's, 40's, etc. You can only play in your decade or the open.

Or, more divisions in the open league. The women leagues in our area have a day and a night league. Why not have leagues each night in the open. Whichever nights field enough teams has a league. Playoffs get a bit more complicated, but at least we have an choice of more leagues.

Basically, we are asking to play more tennis, shouldn't the USTA be supporting this?

 

[Cindysphinx]

g4driver, thank you for your post.

I consider myself lucky that I can run and play tennis and whatnot, that I am fundamentally healthy, that I am not destitute and can afford to pursue this hobby. I smile plenty.

I just think that it's not the best idea to suggest to everyone that their age and the limitations that come with injury are something that can be overcome with the mind. That's simply not so. Age needn't cause a person to give up the enjoyment of tennis, but these limitations and problems are quite real.

As far as whether having the cutoffs were they are for seniors' leagues . . . ya gotta draw the lines somewhere, and anything you do will necessarily be arbitrary.

I guess I don't understand what the problem is. This coming season, I will be on three night/weekend teams. If I wanted, I could easily get on 4-5 more teams. I have ample opportunities for tennis, and I would imagine this is true of pretty much anyone in a major metropolitan area.

So what is the reason to try to rain on the seniors' parade again?

You know, our area has day leagues for women only. I am sure there are some guys who do not work or who have flexible hours who would love to have a day league. If this is so, then they should get their own league rather than try to crash the ladies leagues. I feel the same way for seniors' leagues -- those who want more tennis should just start some new teams/leagues rather than crash the seniors' leagues.

 

[bodieq]

What about decade leagues. Leave open as any age, but then have decade leagues, similar to tournaments. So, no more seniors/super seniors, but 20's, 30's, 40's, etc. You can only play in your decade or the open.

Creative idea, but this would never work on a practical level (and what I mean by this is that the lower-rated players would never get invited nor be competitive on a purely age-based type of league...at least not on the teams that have any playoff aspirations). If the only requirement threshhold is "age," why would any Captain want 3.0-4.0 players on the team when they can fill their roster up with 4.5-5.5 players?

Too many people would be excluded as a result.

(At least with the age-division Tournaments, anyone can sign-up without being excluded. But these tournaments can be totally hit-or-miss).

 

[West Coast Ace]

I feel like I am running a race against time that I will never win.

No offense, but I bet on Time at the race and sports book at MGM. They don't like your chances either...

1) Fix the NTRP rating system, by hiring some mathematicians to completely overhaul the current system commencing in the fall of 2011.

Interesting idea. Netflix had a $1 million dollar open challenge to improve their movie referral algorithm. Not sure if it would be so easy for the USTA to do it (and they wouldn't pay - the execs like pulling the huge salaries...). But they could hand the problem off to the academic community and have them crunch on it. Not sure how to measure success. Closer average match scores? USTA would most likely want a measure geared toward membership in leagues.

 

[doubleshack]

If the only requirement threshhold is "age," why would any Captain want 3.0-4.0 players on the team when they can fill their roster up with 4.5-5.5 players?

You are correct...I should not have said similar to tournaments, forgot the age tournaments do not have NTRP. Should be more like an extension/change in Seniors, age and NTRP.

Personally, I have no problem with the Seniors being able to play in multiple leagues. It sounds like the issue is more that if you are not in the Seniors, you don't have as many options. So, rather then remove options for Seniors, why not come up with additional options for other age groups.

 

[10sjunkie]

The lady I spoke with was a Senior, understood my points, and specially understood my point that the current system gives the most opportunity to Super Seniors(60+), then Seniors (50-59), then lastly Adults (18-49).

Keep in mind that those are not the age parameters of the leagues...they are Super Seniors (60+), Seniors (50+) and Adult (18+). 49 and 59 are not cutoff ages.

Have you checked with your local league coordinator about setting up weekend leagues for the Adult levels? That is an easy enough fix assuming there are enough players (and courts available) that would like to play at that time.

In our area, the vast majority of Super Senior players do not play in the Adult leagues. There are a handful that do, but most will not play below the Senior divisions.

One last point, there is more opportunity for the Super Senior and Senior players to play as they are generally the players with more time to play. I would love to be able to play more tennis, but the job tends to get in the way. Super Senior matches in our area are scheduled on weekday mornings.

 

[g4driver]

Keep in mind that those are not the age parameters of the leagues...they are Super Seniors (60+), Seniors (50+) and Adult (18+). 49 and 59 are not cutoff ages.

10Sjunkie, I understand completely, that 49 & 59 are not age cutoffs for players who are 50+ and want to play Adult, or 60+ and want to play Adult or Senior. I am arguing the point that age cutoffs are restrictive for playing in a Senior League if you aren't 50+, and Super Senior League if you are 60+. Those 18-49 can't play in a Senior or Super Senior League, while someone 60+ can play in all three leagues. Likewise those 50+ can play both Adult and Senior.

The 50+ Senior League allows anyone over 50+ but specifically excludes anyone 49 and younger. My point is that if you already have a Super Senior League for those 60+, then what the USTA as effectively created is a 50-59 year old's league, a very narrow range. Can and will you have some players in the Senior league at 62, or 64? Yes, and in my area, that is common.

Have you checked with your local league coordinator about setting up weekend leagues for the Adult levels? I am asking questions about demographics of our leagues, and if they can set up Adult leagues on the weekends. I would hazard to guess that the majority of people in my area playing in the Adult league are 50+. I live in a metro area with a varied demographic population, but maybe the younger people surf, kite surf or play more golf than tennis. I seem to see a lot of 50+ folks in the Adult Leagues. My neighbor and another good friend are 40something and 30something respectfully. Both play tennis, but not USTA due to their schedules which conflict with the USTA Adult League.

Or maybe I simply live in an area and play out of courts with a lot of 50+ people. There are four 3.5 Men's team that play out of my club. Players under 50 are few and far between. Of the 14 Men on my Adult team, 10 are 50+, while only four are less than 50.

In our area, the vast majority of Super Senior players do not play in the Adult leagues. There are two Super Seniors on my team, yet neither play Super Seniors, just Adult and Senior.

I would love to be able to play more tennis, but the job tends to get in the way. The exact point I'm making to both the local league and to the USTA.

I looked our local league office. All officers are Seniors and Super Seniors.

Cindy,

I typed a reply to you (but didn't publish it as it was too long), but both you and Doubleshack made a good point. Rather than remove options for Seniors and Super Seniors, provide more options to those in the 18-49 range who can't play in the Senior or Super Seniors Leagues.

You wrote you didn't understand the problem, so here it is: working Adults Age 18-49 who aren't eligible for the 50+ leagues, have fewer opportunities to play USTA than anyone 50+.

My 40something opponent from last night, has missed four matches in a row for his team due to his job. He made the comment: I wish our league played on the weekend, as I've only made three matches this year. He isn't alone. I told him I was working on getting some facts and figures to see if we couldn't do just that.

I don't know all the logistics (court availability), the pitfalls , nor the answers to opening a weekend league. I will gather as much information as I can in terms of data, and see if I can get enough signatures on a petition from the players in my area to see if there is interest in having an Adult Weekend League that would provide playing opportunities for those Adults who can't play during the week.

 

[spot]

Are your leagues really so jacked up that they play the senior leagues on the weekends and the adult leagues only during the week? I guess in atlanta we just do things smarter- there are TONS of weekend leagues for Adults to play in and the Senior leagues are played during the week when they have more time and there are more courts available.

 

[g4driver]

Are your leagues really so jacked up that they play the senior leagues on the weekends and the adult leagues only during the week? Bingo! And that is the problem! It dosen't help when every officer in our local league is 50+ with the vast majority of league coordinators also 50+.

I guess in atlanta we just do things smarter- there are TONS of weekend leagues for Adults to play in and the Senior leagues are played during the week when they have more time and there are more courts available.
I used to play ALTA and USTA in Atlanta, but I no longer live there.

Finally, someone is understanding the problem in Charleston,SC where there are a lot of retired people who play a lot of tennis.

So does it make sense for my Adult team to have four players under 50 and ten players over 50? I like all of the guys, but my theory is simply this: many players who play tennis, don't play USTA in Charleston, simply due to the Weekday Only Schedule for Adults.

It's funny that ALTA is only in Atlanta, yet is one-fourth the size of the USTA for the entire US. What does that say about ALTA and what does it say about the USTA? ALTA is 80K strong in a population base of 5.5 million, while the USTA is 300K strong in population base of 300 million. Maybe, just maybe ALTA has a better mousetrap than the USTA.

 

[Rabbit]

Truthfully, Seniors and Super Seniors were set up to allow a little segregation from general population. In most cases, by the time a player gets to be 50, they play league tennis for a whole different set of reasons than a 20 year old. Regular adult league tennis is still open to those 50+, but by and large seniors was created as a way to let folks of roughly the same age and goals play in a competitive format without some of the "stuff" that goes on in regular league.

I have to say that in my two years playing seniors, I have found it immensely more fun and the comradery amongst the participants is much more congenial. Seniors pretty much have figured out that winning a tennis match in league tennis doesn't mean a whole lot. Conversely, losing one doesn't mean a whole lot either. It's really more about fun in the Seniors.


Edit: OH...and don't forget. NTRP Leagues are ADULT leagues. They have age requirements as well. Although I have to say that dropping the minimum age to 18 is a mistake IMO. It used to be 21 which at least meant they were close to getting out of college.

 

[10sjunkie]

I understand your problem. What I don't understand is why you are trying to get the age brackets changed instead of just getting a weekend Adult flight. That isn't a USTA problem as a whole or a problem with the age divisions, it is a problem with your local league coordinators. If enough people pushed for weekend Adult play, I'm sure they could work something out. Also, why don't you get involved? Most LLCs are volunteers. Why don't you volunteer to organize the weekend flights? It's easier to make changes from the inside.

 

[Cindysphinx]

OK, I understand your problem now.

Some leagues (like yours, apparently) have set nights of the week for play for each division. Ladies 3.5 on Mondays, Men's 4.0 on Tuesdays, etc. Many people like it that way.

Our league does not do things this way. Each gender/level will have matches scheduled on various days of the week, and it is spread out fairly. Rosters need to be larger because players cannot know in advance that they must reserve a certain night of the week for tennis, so that's a disadvantage.

But the advantage of doing things our way is that people are not frozen out of league play altogether because they have a standing commitment on a certain weeknight (say, custody visitation).

Rather than mess around with seniors/super-seniors, why not address the real problem? Get things changed so that teams play at many different dates and times.

You know, my sister lives in Colorado and has never had the pleasure of playing mixed. That is because she has a conflict on the one day a week her mixed level would play. So she is straight out of luck.

 

[Tina]

OK, I understand your problem now.

Some leagues (like yours, apparently) have set nights of the week for play for each division. Ladies 3.5 on Mondays, Men's 4.0 on Tuesdays, etc. Many people like it that way.

Our league does not do things this way. Each gender/level will have matches scheduled on various days of the week, and it is spread out fairly. Rosters need to be larger because players cannot know in advance that they must reserve a certain night of the week for tennis, so that's a disadvantage.

But the advantage of doing things our way is that people are not frozen out of league play altogether because they have a standing commitment on a certain weeknight (say, custody visitation).

Rather than mess around with seniors/super-seniors, why not address the real problem? Get things changed so that teams play at many different dates and times.

You know, my sister lives in Colorado and has never had the pleasure of playing mixed. That is because she has a conflict on the one day a week her mixed level would play. So she is straight out of luck.

Welcome back, Cindy. How are you? I haven't seen you at TTW for a while. Have a nice evening! -Tina

 

[raiden031]

Well, bully for you!

As for me, this aging thing is kicking my butt. There is no amount of positive thinking that is going to make my joints feel any better, and there is not enough Advil on the planet to make me feel and move the way I did a decade ago. Don't even get me started on the deterioration in vision. My tennis skills are going to decline because of age; that's just a fact.

I feel like I am running a race against time that I will never win. The last thing I need is a constant reminder of that when I take on someone decades younger -- especially given that younger people can be a bit disrespectful when they see they will be playing someone much older. Read TT a while, and you can see the contempt that some (not all!) young folks have.

So let's continue to have senior divisions for those who want that.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go ice both knees and my wrist.

Whats ironic is that there are more playing opportunities for seniors, despite being more injury prone and requiring longer recovery time than younger adults.

 

[g4driver]

I understand your problem. What I don't understand is why you are trying to get the age brackets changed instead of just getting a weekend Adult flight. That isn't a USTA problem as a whole or a problem with the age divisions, it is a problem with your local league coordinators. It is a two part problem. The local league schedule is being addressed. But I disagree with you that the age divisions aren't misaligned. I submit that if the USTA's NTRP system doesn't include any physical capabilities (and this is according to the USTA), that a 48 year old isn't in the same league with a 18 or 28 year old. Although under the current USTA Leagues, the only place a 48 year old can play is "Adult".

I expect the current cutoff age for both Senior League and Super Senior Leagues to drop from their current lower limits of 50 and 60, to something five to ten years younger for both. I also expect to see name changes to something other than "Senior" and "Super Senior" in the next two years in conjunction with the lower age cutoffs.

If enough people pushed for weekend Adult play, I'm sure they could work something out. Also, why don't you get involved? I am doing just that. Most LLCs are volunteers. Why don't you volunteer to organize the weekend flights? It's easier to make changes from the inside.

I am getting involved, and trying to make changes at my local level. My point with the NTRP and age divisions challenges the old guard and status quo of the system. I do believe the NTRP system has fundamentally flaws, especially with the Self-Rating system. It is easy to self-rate low, then win a first set in dominate fashion, then throttle back in the second set, all the while being in total control, and never risk a DQ, but that is a different thread all together.

Many people don't like change, especially when radical ideas are presented, or a longstanding system is challenged. My "crusade" has too fronts, a local, and a national. I have less than one season under my belt in my local league. For now, I have been observing, taking mental notes of the ages of the folks on the teams around me. I don't ask, but it's easy to know if a guy is 55+. When I continue to see 50% of the players in an Adult League looking 50+, I started to wonder: "Why aren't there more younger player on these teams?" Maybe I can get eight to ten weekend teams in my area, since there are approx 30 or so Weekday Night Teams at both the 3.5 and 4.0 Levels

At the USTA National Level, yes, I do fully expect the Senior Age Bracket to be lowered by the USTA. My most thought provoking question to the USTA is about the NTRP rating system. Is there something better than the current NTRP system? I think there could be. And I think there are plenty of bright people with great ideas.

Here's a story I heard a few months back from a pilot who was flying when wheeled carry-on luggage didn't exist. He told me pilots used to carry their luggage through airport's like gorillas, until a someone invented the modern-day rollarboard luggage that had a hook on it that pilots could attach to their 30 lb flightcases. Marines were the last pilots to give in to a suitcase with wheels, and continued to carry their bags like gorillas for a while, until they realized the wheels were here to stay.

The only constant is change. Complaining without taking action is nothing more than _itching. I've made my concerns known and will attempt to coordinate a local weekend league.

To all who have added comments to this thread, I truly appreciate your inputs and time, even if you disagree with me. You have given me different perspectives that I hadn't considered.

v/r

 

[spot]

If you want to start a thread saying its dumb to have adult leagues only on weekdays and the only weekend leagues for seniors then I'll absolutely agree with you. But I do think its perfectly fine to have a seniors only league. I think that the seniors should be able to have a team with their friends, and not have to feel worried that they are handicapping themselves by not recruiting younger players. And for the people who do want the challenge of playing against younger players they obviously can still play in the adult league.

 

[Islandtennis]

I looked our local league office. All officers are Seniors and Super Seniors.

I am getting involved, and trying to make changes at my local level. My point with the NTRP and age divisions challenges the old guard and status quo of the system.

G4, you make some good points; but all of your local officers are not 50+. What exactly are you doing to make changes? Maybe if you did as someone suggested and showed the viability and court availability of an adult weekend league, the local leaders would listen to you. The local leaders want to grow tennis, there is no incentive to limit the number of teams and players. Its not protecting anything.

 

[g4driver]

G4, you make some good points; but all of your local officers are not 50+. They don't list their ages, but they certainly look 50+. What exactly are you doing to make changes? Well first of all, I emailed the league president and stated my position, asking for a Adult Weekend League this fall. My request was meet with encouragement and the green light to organize a league. There are a few of the pitfalls that I knew existed, but that was expected.

The local President forwarded my request to someone who sent out a mass email to 31 3.5 Team Captains to gauge support, and I had four team Captains state they were interested in less than eight hours after her email went out. I only need to get five teams per the president. I hope to get 10 to 12. Since their is no fall playoff, I asked the League President if the USTA will allow members to play on both a weeknight League and a weekend League. If the USTA says "No", I would like to know how this could hurt anyone if the courts are available. I understand a player will not be allowed to play on two 3.5 or 4.0 teams in the spring due to playoffs, but the fall league is completely different.

Maybe if you did as someone suggested and showed the viability and court availability of an adult weekend league, the local leaders would listen to you. The president did listen to me and gave me the thumbs up to organize an Adult League, even stating that he too had trouble fielding a team of eight players not too long ago even with 22 4.0s on his team, due to the number of players who travel for a living. The local leaders want to grow tennis, there is no incentive to limit the number of teams and players. Its not protecting anything. Charleston, SC is the first area I have ever seen that doesn't have an Adult Weekend League. With a metro area of nearly 700K people, a weekend Adult league for 3.5s and 4.0s makes sense.

The local singles coordinator is looking to move the singles league to the weeknights instead of weekends, due to lack of participation. I'm a singles player, and didn't know we had a single league, so maybe, just maybe he should have spent more time promoting it. There is little to no way to know about the Local League's website unless you simply stumble across it by blind luck. My club has never mentioned it to me, my friends, and I've never seen a flyer, or other information promoting the local league website or their leagues in the clubs I have seen around Charleston. The information takes a lot of questions and persistent to get. It should be easy, but it isn't.

The USTA website doesn't make it any easier to find teams looking for players, or for Captains looking for players. The USTA TennisLink site makes you search by the name of the team.

Doesn't it make more sense to look for a team by zip code, or city? And why doesn't the USTA allow people to log in with username's or email addresses instead of USTA Member Numbers? Please don't tell me that any of you have your USTA Member number memorized. :-? That's just scary if it's true.

I'm not sitting on this computer complaining and sitting idle hurling rocks at the USTA and my local league. I've taken surveys (including the USTA Mobile App Survey) and sent emails to both the USTA, my local league with my suggestions and have asked my teammates for their inputs to my thoughts and ideas. It seems there a complete acceptance for the lackluster status quo among many, when I think our leagues can be better. I volunteered to organized the Men's Fall Adult League, and will volunteer to do more for our league when I have this running.

As for as the the USTA goes:
Does anyone else think the USTA needs to upgrade their TennisLink site to include features like this one from ALTA before developing apps for smartphones:

http://www.altatennis.org/Public/Postings/PlayersLookingForTeams.aspx
and
http://www.altatennis.org/Public/Postings/TeamsLookingForPlayers.aspx

Trying to find players or teams is cumbersome to say the least on the USTA website. I've asked for the Mixed Teams list of Captains with contact info four times at our club, and I still don't have a name or number. The process is completely broken for new players trying to join teams, and yes, our local league President is going to get this feedback as well.

The problem I see is this: if you are established on a team, and you know lots of players, you generally stay on your team or move to a team with friends or players you already know. But what happens when someone new moves to town? You have to do a lot of work to find a team. Something so simple, simply isn't.

 

[tom10s]

Since i am under 50, usta league tennis ends for me on or around june 22 of every year when adult league regular season ends. there is no usta league that i can participate in FOR THE ENTIRE SUMMER(summer solstice through fall equinox). NONE. NADA. ZIP. This is frankly absurd imo. No usta leagues whatsoever during the summer for those under 50. Way to go usta!

All i can figure is that the USTA league tennis is obviously run by and for the benefit of "seniors", and under 50 adult league players are just a low priority for them.

truly sad state of affairs

 

[Topaz]

The USTA TennisLink site makes you search by the name of the team.

There are a few ways to search for teams...name is just one of them. Try using the leagues report drill down option on the page. That way you can also see all the different leagues offered in each particular area.

In some areas it might make sense to search by zip code, but it wouldn't work for all (for instance, in my area, where teams are not 'club bound' or based, you can have a team comprised of people from more than one state, not to mention zip code).

And why doesn't the USTA allow people to log in with username's or email addresses instead of USTA Member Numbers? Please don't tell me that any of you have your USTA Member number memorized. :-? That's just scary if it's true.

Oh well, guess you should be scared of me then! (in my defense, it is an easily remembered number!) The only time I have to log in with my USTA number is when I'm actually registering for a team or tournament...what other times are you needing it?

 

[Topaz]

Since i am under 50, usta league tennis ends for me on or around june 22 of every year when adult league regular season ends. there is no usta league that i can participate in FOR THE ENTIRE SUMMER(summer solstice through fall equinox). NONE. NADA. ZIP. This is frankly absurd imo. No usta leagues whatsoever during the summer for those under 50. Way to go usta!

All i can figure is that the USTA league tennis is obviously run by and for the benefit of "seniors", and under 50 adult league players are just a low priority for them.

truly sad state of affairs

That does suck...are there any tournaments that you can enter in that time frame?

In our area, pretty much everyone can play year round in something...maybe an advantage to being in a larger metropolitan area?

 

[g4driver]

toms10,

Call the USTA and your local league and give them the facts. If there aren't any mixed or combo leagues for those under 50 in your area, ask your local league why? The national USTA is aware their age brackets are misaligned. One more phone call or email to them certainly will not hurt.

There are more opportunities for seniors in USTA but maybe it's just the way things have evolved, as they have been the most vocal wanting leagues.

 

[tom10s]

That does suck...are there any tournaments that you can enter in that time frame?

In our area, pretty much everyone can play year round in something...maybe an advantage to being in a larger metropolitan area?

yes, there is 1 tournament in july which typically has poor participation because same weekend as usta district tournament. also, 1 tournament in august and 1 tournament in september.

indeed, small towntennis sucks

 

[tom10s]

toms10,

Call the USTA and your local league and give them the facts. If there aren't any mixed or combo leagues for those under 50 in your area, ask your local league why? The national USTA is aware their age brackets are misaligned. One more phone call or email to them certainly will not hurt.

There are more opportunities for seniors in USTA but maybe it's just the way things have evolved, as they have been the most vocal wanting leagues.

I have been discussing the lack of under 50 tennis with local usta officials for 6 years now. they have tried to launch combo leagues unsuccessfully in the past. they plan to try again this year. i expect the same failed result. most of the active tennis players are 50+ and they cherish their senior and super senior league and thus will not participate in combo or whatever.

 

[g4driver]

There are a few ways to search for teams...name is just one of them. Try using the leagues report drill down option on the page. Wow what a cumbersome way to find a team, yet, not provide any contact information when you do find one. That way you can also see all the different leagues offered in each particular area. And what are we suppose to do, when we do find a team? There isn't any way to contact them that I can find. I could be wrong, but I just think the USTA TennisLink website is nearly useless other than finding schedules and names and ratings for players. I can find tournaments at least.

In some areas it might make sense to search by zip code, but it wouldn't work for all (for instance, in my area, where teams are not 'club bound' or based, you can have a team comprised of people from more than one state, not to mention zip code).

Oh well, guess you should be scared of me then! (in my defense, it is an easily remembered number!) The only time I have to log in with my USTA number is when I'm actually registering for a team or tournament...what other times are you needing it? None, but I have to go dig out my USTA card from my bag everytime. Google, Amazon, Facebook, and just about every other website I use, allows me to login with a username or email address. Again, the USTA website just isn't as user friendly.

Topez,

Thanks for the tip. But I still can't see any contact information for Captain's or teams. Am I missing something? Maybe it's me, here are my observations of the tennislink page:

1) Navigating the USTA TennisLink website isn't as easy as navigating most sites. e.g. Let's compare the USTA TennisLink website just to ALTA. Much easier to find a team on ALTA's website. Just like it's easy to find most things on Amazon or other large websites. I personally think the USTA TennisLink is mediocre at best, compared to most websites that I use on a regular basis.

2) When I wrote "Search by Zip Code", I meant search by Zip Code including all teams that are within a radius of the zip code. It's a common search function on many websites. It works for hotels, restaurants and businesses on thosands of websites. If you live in an area like NY, near CT, by searching a zip code with a radius around that zip code.

When designing any website, tennis programs or any program for that matter, the end product works better, if the organization tries to think in terms of someone who is brand new to their product or service. e.g. I move to a new area, and want to join a team. I can do a google search and find tennis clubs and facilities, but once I find them and contact them, it is like pulling teeth to get information from most of these facilities.

Here's a idea:

1) Add a pulldown menu to the USTA website, to allow tennis players to find facilities, phone numbers and addresses based on city, state, or zip code. Then have a submenu under the City, State, or Zip Code that allows a user to then search by the following:

2) a pulldown menu for players looking for teams
3) a pulldown menu for Captains looking for players
4) a pulldown menu for leagues
5) a pulldown menu for tournament
6) a pulldown menu so you can search by Player Name
7) a pulldown menu so you can search by Team Name

I realize options 4-7 are already available, but my suggestion is to put all the search functions in one central location -- that location being a pulldown menu where you can search for one of the seven things I listed above.) I think the search feature could easily find all facilities, teams, and leagues that register with the USTA TennisLink website. Then includ contact information of Captain's or Teams.

Let's say I want to find a team in Winsor Locks, CT which happens to sit right between Hartford, CT and Springfield, MA. If a user could search for all Women's 3.5 Team in 30 mile radius of Windsor Locks, then the member could find a team or facility that worked for them. Right now, if I moved to Windsor Locks, CT, I would use google to help me find tennis facilities, then I would pick up my phone and start calling places, as this is the only way I know how to educate myself on the tennis programs around Windsor Locks, CT. I think there is a better way to serve the USTA Members, but it will require some changes to the USTA's website.

Again, if I were just throwing rocks at the USTA that is complaining, but the USTA has the resources to overhaul it's website, and I'm more than willing to give them suggestions. It's up to the members to ask for features/tools on their website, and to ask for leagues or challenge the status quo if we think there is a better mousetrap. If we don't ask for things like I'm asking for, we will continue to get what the USTA thinks we need. I have found the USTA to be very open to feedback and suggestions, so I'm asking for things I think they can do to make their website and my tennis experience better.

If you are anyone else as a suggestion, please by all means contact the USTA, and complete their surveys. The USTA will take the feedback, but it's our own fault if we as members don't help them give us a better product.

 

[OrangePower]

My personal opinion is that leagues should be based on NTRP only, not on age. NTRP should be the great equalizer. So there should be no age limitations one way or another.

But I am also a believer in the power of the market. If senior-only leagues exist, then this is because there was demand for them. And as long as there are enough senior players out there who want them, they should continue.

If there were enough non-seniors wanting a non-senior league to run in parallel to the senior league, then that would happen (assuming USTA is run like a decent business trying to satisfy it's customers and maximize revenue).

 

[Topaz]

g4, is the red added by you???

Anyway, sorry, I didn't realize you wanted actual contact info of the captains...the drill down will give you names.

I have to say, as a former captain myself, I certainly would not want my info up there for just about anyone to look up. I believe that is why they have the coordinators to act as a go-between. It seems as if someone coordinators do not do their jobs as well as others though.

Off to a meeting, but will try to address the rest of your post later.

 

[g4driver]

My personal opinion is that leagues should be based on NTRP only, not on age. NTRP should be the great equalizer. That is my theory. So there should be no age limitations one way or another.

But I am also a believer in the power of the market. If senior-only leagues exist, then this is because there was demand for them. And as long as there are enough senior players out there who want them, they should continue.
If there were enough non-seniors wanting a non-senior league to run in parallel to the senior league, then that would happen. I am trying to do just that, but what happens to 18-49 year old Adults trying to get a weekend league starting, but who can't get courts due to facility shortage. (assuming USTA is run like a decent business trying to satisfy it's customers and maximize revenue).

OrangePower,

The problem I'm running into is court availability on Saturdays due to the Senior Leagues that are already established. Sunday mornings don't work in many areas due to church services, so I'm attempting to establish a early Sunday evening League in the Fall, so I'm competing with NFL football games in the fall, and the beaches and boats in the spring and summer. Hopefully, we can make a go with the Sunday evening league, as I've emailed 31 3.5 Team Captains looking to get their feedback. So far I'm getting more positive responses than I had hoped for.

If I show the local League Coordinator proof that 12 Men's 3.5 teams are interested in playing, but that interest is on Saturday mornings, how does he balance that demand with the those who are already playing on Saturday morning? If 12 Men's 3.5 teams want to play on Saturday morning, versus 12 Teams Total for Senior Women 3.0-4.0, does first come first serve work? I think first come has a lot of merit. Why should they be kicked out of that slot to accommodate the new kids on the block? The bottom line is there simply aren't enough courts to support everyone playing at the same time.

I fully expect the Senior League lower age limit to drop soon as the USTA Age Brackets get realigned. While there will be plenty of people complaining when this happens, more people will have access than they currently have at this time.

 

[g4driver]

g4, is the red added by you??? Yes, click on the "A" with the drop down box to change the font color. I use it when answering a specific question or address a comment by another user. If you don't like red, I could use a different color. But Red & Black go so well together.

Anyway, sorry, I didn't realize you wanted actual contact info of the captains...the drill down will give you names. But without the contact info, the names are completely worthless.

I have to say, as a former captain myself, I certainly would not want my info up there for just about anyone to look up. Yet, another reason to have login names, to prevent just anyone from contacting you. Private Messages work well on forums, and don't reveal any information at all until the user sends that info. I believe that is why they have the coordinators to act as a go-between. It seems as if someone coordinators do not do their jobs as well as others though. No, they do not. Four phone calls to my club asking for names and numbers, and not one piece of useful information at all. I've discussed this with our local league President and other coordinators.

Off to a meeting, but will try to address the rest of your post later. Thanks

Topez,

I'm working with our local league to create an Weekend Adult League. There are plenty of issues, but hopefully we can work through them.

 

[raiden031]

My personal opinion is that leagues should be based on NTRP only, not on age. NTRP should be the great equalizer. So there should be no age limitations one way or another.

But I am also a believer in the power of the market. If senior-only leagues exist, then this is because there was demand for them. And as long as there are enough senior players out there who want them, they should continue.

If there were enough non-seniors wanting a non-senior league to run in parallel to the senior league, then that would happen (assuming USTA is run like a decent business trying to satisfy it's customers and maximize revenue).

Seniors have the advantage of having more free time and already being established than younger adults, so its a losing proposition for them. The seniors have been hogging the courts for years, so they would not accept facilities suddenly taking away their courts for younger adults to start a new league. So in this case seniority rules. I'll tell you one thing, I don't feel sympathy for injured seniors who play 6 times a week. Its their own fault.

 

[OrangePower]

Seniors have the advantage of having more free time and already being established than younger adults, so its a losing proposition for them. The seniors have been hogging the courts for years, so they would not accept facilities suddenly taking away their courts for younger adults to start a new league. So in this case seniority rules. I'll tell you one thing, I don't feel sympathy for injured seniors who play 6 times a week. Its their own fault.

I agree with you. I might not like the status quo, but it's market driven - as you've pointed out the seniors have the time and the pull with the facilities.

If there was enough demand by younger adults to do something about it, and a willingness to pony up the $$$ to get the facilities to see things differently, then it would happen...