If Alcaraz does NOT win RG 2023 will he still become an ATG?

Can Alcaraz still be an ATG after losing to Novak in FO 2023?

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TennisFan3

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
How can you be an ATG when you couldn't beat 35/36/37 year old past their prime aging champions?

If a 36 year old Novak beats Alcaraz on Novak's WEAKEST surface, it perhaps means that Alcaraz isn't good enough. At least compared to Fed/Nadal/Novak/Sampras etc.

The time for Alcaraz to step it up is NOW. No excuses. He is getting to his PRIME. His rival is aging and the surface favors him. A loss would be a big setback for Carlitos.
 
I don't get the gloom and doom about this match. He's the favorite definitely and has a great chance to win so a lot of these threads would be in vain. Even if he doesn't though, he just turned 20 years old and his career is just starting. He's going to win this title anyway in his career and many more titles. I don't see how losing a match to the guy who won the last 2 out of 3 Slams and is the unofficial #1 count as a bad loss.
 
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Well, any other ATG is accepted as such just because winning 5 or 6 Slams. So why should it be different when Alcaraz wins 5 or 6 Slams? And who guarantees that any of those borderline ATGs would have any chance against "aging Djokovic"?
 
The Fedfather said:
No. If Alcaraz doesn't win, he will be exiled to spend the rest of his days in solitude and shame.
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1) he is in his peak and prime.
2) Methusalkovic is a decade and a half or more past his.
3) there are no bad matches. If he loses one match most ATGs would win, he is no atg.
4) there is only shame in a tennis career that doesn’t reach atg status.

Who cares about a slam title, a slam semi, and four ms titles if that’s all you’ve got to say for yourself when you’re already 20 years and one month old, and it’s the weakest era of all possible worlds so you haven’t even beaten any prime or peak ATGs?
 
@The Fedfather One Federer fan tried to tell me the other day that Alcaraz has done nothing of note to this point because he only won the US Open against Ruud (a mug). By contrast, Federer at the same age had beaten Pete Sampras at Wimbledon 2001. So, in this logic, one slam title, another slam semi, four MS titles, and the world number 1 ranking < one solitary match against Sampras. (Alcaraz’s wins over Djokovic and Nadal don’t count because they weren’t in slams and the losers were old).

This is why us saying Alcaraz should retire in shame if he loses tomorrow is only moderate satire!
 
helterskelter said:
@The Fedfather One Federer fan tried to tell me the other day that Alcaraz has done nothing of note to this point because he only won the US Open against Ruud (a mug). By contrast, Federer at the same age had beaten Pete Sampras at Wimbledon 2001. So, in this logic, one slam title, another slam semi, four MS titles, and the world number 1 ranking < one solitary match against Sampras. (Alcaraz’s wins over Djokovic and Nadal don’t count because they weren’t in slams and the losers were old).

This is why us saying Alcaraz should retire in shame if he loses tomorrow is only moderate satire!
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At just 20 Alcaraz has demonstrated the ability that's leaps and bounds above the rest of the current top players bar one or two exceptions. At 19, 20 years old, that's a big promise, regardless of the weak field. People can talk down his potential day and night, it's nonetheless glaringly obvious he is special.
 
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The force is with you young Alcaraz, but you are not an ATG yet.
 
He will have more chances even if he doesn't win this one.
I get why everybody is hyping this match up and I'm excited for it too, but it's one match. It's not the be all end all. Carlos could lose tomorrow and still beat Djokovic in a Slam later on. We'll see what happens. The kid is 20, he's got a lot more ahead of him.
 
Yes, but if Djoker beats him - and the more Djoker beats him from here on out - it will add fuel to the claim that he wouldn’t have been an ATG had his era overlapped more with the Big 3’s.
 
TennisFan3 said:
How can you be an ATG when you couldn't beat 35/36/37 year old past their prime aging champions?

If a 36 year old Novak beats Alcaraz on Novak's WEAKEST surface, it perhaps means that Alcaraz isn't good enough. At least compared to Fed/Nadal/Novak/Sampras etc.

The time for Alcaraz to step it up is NOW. No excuses. He is getting to his PRIME. His rival is aging and the surface favors him. A loss would be a big setback for Carlitos.
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You need to edit the thread title. As you've got it, the question asks whether he WILL end up an ATG if he loses tomorrow. But that makes it seem as though you're asking about what his future would look like if he lost tomorrow. He might still wrack up quite a large slam count in this weakest era of all possible worlds even if he lost tomorrow, so you need to clarify that that's not what you're asking. You are actually asking, "Can Alcaraz end up an ATG if he loses tomorrow?" The obvious answer is "No." No matter what he does from now on - winning 500 slams or no more slams - losing to Methusalkovic on his worst surface while himself being at the ideal age for all tennis players would be so shocking a stain on his resume that he could never be considered a decent player, let alone an ATG!
 
Even if Carlos wins 20 slams from here on out and beats Djokovic every time he meets him, Alcaraz will never be an ATG. That ship has sailed. The game is at its weakest point ever, so Carlos winning any slams means less than me winning my local Yugioh tournament.
 
Sometennisfan said:
Federer won his 1st GS at 21 age, Carlos has 3 more GS in front of him before he become 21 years old.
Isn't Federer an ATG cause he didnt won GS faster?
Childish and too doomish take....

PS: and Djokovic is not any 36/37 years old man, he is the "statistically GOAT" in men's tennis.
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Federer was 21.75 in slam terms - it was the last slam before he turned 22. Alcaraz has six slams after this one before he reaches that age.
 
If he wins he won't become an ATG. But if he loses then he changes his destiny and takes a new path, becoming an ATG.

The logic of this response represents the soundness of the OP's question.
 
happyandbob said:
I wonder how many other professions there are where your entire career can be determined when you are 20. Tennis fans have amazing powers of prescience.
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So If Alcaraz NEVER beats Novak in a slam match, he would always have that question on how good he really was when he couldn't beat an OLD big 3 member.
Even is Alcaraz wins double digit slams, the question would NEVER be answered.
Alcaraz would be inferior to the Big 3 and therefore not an ATG.
 
NoleFam said:
I don't get the gloom and doom about this match. He's the favorite definitely and has a great chance to win so a lot of these threads would be in vain. Even if he doesn't though, he just turned 20 years old and his career is just starting. He's going to win this title anyway in his career and many more titles. I don't see how losing a match to the guy who won the last 2 out of 3 Slams and is the unofficial #1 a bad loss.
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It is a bad loss when you're supposed to be an ATG, and you can't beat 36 yr old past their prime champions.
It's not a bad loss for a normal player, but it is for someone who everyone says is the next ATG and on the big 3 path.
 
Kralingen said:
If Alcaraz beats him at either Wimbledon or the AO then he’d immediately erase any doubt.
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LOL- Novak is way way stronger on Wimbledon/AO.
Clay blunts Novak's CONSIDERABLE advantages in Serve, Return and +1 Play. If Alcaraz does NOT beat Novak on clay, he has ZERO chance of beating Novak on grass or hards.
 
jl809 said:
Yes, but if Djoker beats him - and the more Djoker beats him from here on out - it will add fuel to the claim that he wouldn’t have been an ATG had his era overlapped more with the Big 3’s.
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Great post. 100% agree.
How are you an ATG - if you can't beat 36 yr old previous ATGs.
A loss to Novak on Novak's weakest surface, would simply tell us that Alcaraz would NOT win anything if his prime coincided witn Fed/Nadal/Djokovic.
 
Kralingen said:
Yeah but he will eventually.
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When Novak is 40? What's the point of that?
It just means that if Novak and Alcaraz were in their prime together, Alcaraz would have ZERO chance of beating Novak.
Hence Alcaraz is NOT an ATG.

That's why F.O 2023 SF is SUPER CRITICAL for Alcaraz. If he loses to Novak now, then he is NOT even half as good as Novak.
If a 36 yr old Novak is >> Alcaraz, then Imagine a 25 year old Novak?
 
TennisFan3 said:
It is a bad loss when you're supposed to be an ATG, and you can't beat 36 yr old past their prime champions.
It's not a bad loss for a normal player, but it is for someone who everyone says is the next ATG and on the big 3 path.
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Again, he's won the last 2 out of 3 Slams, the ATP Finals and is the unoffical #1. Maybe these rules apply to other ATGs who definitely weren't winning Slams at this age and were falling down the rankings but not Novak. Alcaraz is young, only 20 years old and hasn't reached his peak yet. When Federer was this age he wasn't even making SFs of Slams. Sampras didn't win another one for 3 years after his 1st one at 19.
 
The Fedfather said:
At just 20 Alcaraz has demonstrated the ability that's leaps and bounds above the rest of the current top players bar one or two exceptions. At 19, 20 years old, that's a big promise, regardless of the weak field. People can talk down his potential day and night, it's nonetheless glaringly obvious he is special.
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Except when someone wears biased glasses.
 
TennisFan3 said:
So If Alcaraz NEVER beats Novak in a slam match, he would always have that question on how good he really was when he couldn't beat an OLD big 3 member.
Even is Alcaraz wins double digit slams, the question would NEVER be answered.
Alcaraz would be inferior to the Big 3 and therefore not an ATG.
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Don't worry, tomorrow the little boy is gonna thrash the mightiest whatever.

Watch and learn. It's going to be a painful lesson.
 
TennisFan3 said:
How can you be an ATG when you couldn't beat 35/36/37 year old past their prime.
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Lendl couldn’t beat 30 and 31year old Connors in the 1982 or ‘83 USO finals when Connors was considered ancient at the time. It didn’t affect his eventual status as an ATG.

It’s all about the numbers and if Carlos reaches 6 slams he’s an ATG. That would be true even if he lost to 50 year old Novak.
 
Why are you guys so fixated on Novak’s age? He is one of the top 2 players in the world who has been averaging two Slam titles a year ever since 2018. He looked awesome at Wimbledon, WTF and the AO which are the three biggest events he has played in the last 12 months. He certainly has looked like one of the top 3 players in the world at this French Open also.

I expect Alcaraz to have the edge on Friday because it is a slow court, but there is no questioning that Novak is the toughest opponent he will face in this tournament or at Wimbledon irrespective of Novak’s age. At Wimbledon, Novak will be favored in the matchup and no one will be saying he is too old. It seems really foolish to say that Carlos losing to him will somehow put a black mark forever on his standing in tennis history. I have no idea who Federer or Djokovic lost to in Slams when they were 20 as that was a long time ago - I know that they were not going to finals often at that age. If Carlos wins 10 Slams as his level so far at a young age indicates, no one is going to say he is not an ATG.

Just watch the quality of tennis being played objectively instead of making value judgments on the quality based on the age of the players. Most 20 year old pros are not elite, but Carlos is #1 in the world. Most 36-year old pros are on the road to retirement, but Novak is still winning two Slams a year. These guys should not be reduced to just their ages.
 
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NoleFam said:
Again, he's won the last 2 out of 3 Slams, the ATP Finals and is the unoffical #1. Maybe these rules apply to other ATGs who definitely weren't winning Slams at this age and were falling down the rankings but not Novak. Alcaraz is young, only 20 years old and hasn't reached his peak yet. When Federer was this age he wasn't even making SFs of Slams. Sampras didn't win another one for 3 years after his 1st one at 19.
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Yes. Then let's STOP saying Alcaraz is the successor of the big 3 and next ATG.
Wait for him to mature.
Let's STOP the INSANE HYPE.
 
Yeah, not the first time we hear this, "it's his last chance, it's now or never" or "if he wins, it means this and if he doesn't, it means that". It feels like fans need to be exra hyped before big matches and they like to be overdramatic as a result.
 
"As long as tennis is discussed among true fans, the name of Carlos Alcaraz will be up there with the Nastases, Murrays, Rafters etc. Guys who were not ATG but still a key part of their eras."
 
TennisFan3 said:
So If Alcaraz NEVER beats Novak in a slam match, he would always have that question on how good he really was when he couldn't beat an OLD big 3 member.
Even is Alcaraz wins double digit slams, the question would NEVER be answered.
Alcaraz would be inferior to the Big 3 and therefore not an ATG.
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I see. So Michael Jordan never beat the Detroit Pistons or Boston Celtics when they were at their peak. Sounds like he’ll never be an all-time great.
 
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