If at the end of their careers, Rafael Nadal finishes with more US Open title than Novak Djokovic?

How would that effect Novak Djokovic's hard court status as an ATG in that surface? Considering the fact that Rafael Nadal isn't an ATG hard court player and he will have more titles at a specific hard court slam, would Novak Djokovic still qualify as a hard court ATG?

The way I see it, an ATG on a specific surface can't have less titles in any grand slam / major tournament on that particular than a non-ATG in that particular surface. Sure, Novak Djokovic is an ATG at Australian Open. However, he is anything but an ATG at US Open and he has been relatively appalling / dreadful at US Open compared to Australian Open. To qualify as a true ATG in a specific surface, one must be consistently good with similar success in all tournaments in that surface. This isn't the case with Novak Djokovic (2 US Opens only to 6 Australian Opens). That's quite a huge disparity compared to something like 5 Australian and US Opens each for Roger Federer.

By the looks of it, it seems like Rafael Nadal will finish his career with more US Open titles and with a more impressive / greater US Open feats / records than Novak Djokovic. Thus, it's entirely debatable if Novak Djokovic could even claim to be an ATG hard court player if a non-ATG hard court player like Rafael Nadal wins more US Open titles.
 

VolleyHelena

Semi-Pro
It's kind of embarrassing that Djokovic has won only 2 out of 7 USO finals.2010,2012,2013 and 2016 have been highly disappointing,but I still think he'll win a couple more
 

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic has enough hard court titles at enough different hard court tournaments to prove he's one of the greats on the surface, but if Nadal does indeed end up with more USO's than him (making threads like this before the semi final has even been played is ridiculous) that will certainly say plenty about him as a truly, undeniably great one. For a defensive baselining, clay court guy to have accomplished as much as he has off the surface is literally unheard of in the history of the mens game.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Djokovic would remain right up near the top - and ahead of Nadal - as a hard courter for me

You can differentiate between "US Open Great" and "Australian Open " (personally, I don't - at least for modern times), but the minute you talk about "Hard Court Great", further division is just splitting hairs in my opinion... Australian Open, US Open ---> Tweedledee, Tweedledum

Keeping things just to Slams, it's as simple as Djokovic's 8 > Nadal's 4

Nadal has a Cincy title, Djoko doesn't. .. Surely that doesn't diminish Djokovic's status as the leading Hard courter at Masters level?

Also, Nadal is undoubtedly an ATG - All Time Great hard courter. Perhaps not a GOAT candidate, like Djokovic but certainly an ATG

(And of course, Novak Djokovic, as everyone knows, is the most flexible and official-sports-definition-of agile athlete in history, hence he remains a GOAT hard court candidate, let alone ATG:p)
 
Djokovic would remain right up near the top - and ahead of Nadal - as a hard courter for me

You can differentiate between "US Open Great" and "Australian Open " (personally, I don't - at least for modern times), but the minute you talk about "Hard Court Great", further division is just splitting hairs in my opinion... Australian Open, US Open ---> Tweedledee, Tweedledum

Keeping things just to Slams, it's as simple as Djokovic's 8 > Nadal's 4

Nadal has a Cincy title, Djoko doesn't. .. Surely that doesn't diminish Djokovic's status as the leading Hard courter at Masters level?

Also, Nadal is undoubtedly an ATG - All Time Great hard courter. Perhaps not a GOAT candidate, like Djokovic but certainly an ATG

(And of course, Novak Djokovic, as everyone knows, is the most flexible and official-sports-definition-of agile athlete in history, hence he remains a GOAT hard court candidate, let alone ATG:p)

You missed the point. I didn't claim that Nadal would've been better than Djokovic if the supposed event were to happen. Point was, Djokovic having less slams at a hard court grand slam tournament compared to someone who isn't an ATG hard court player (Rafael Nadal) makes it debatable if Djokovic is even an ATG hard court player in the first place (even though he would be a better hard court player than Nadal).

Rafael Nadal certainly isn't an ATG hard court player or a grass court player. He is merely the greatest clay court player of all time. Otherwise, you might as well claim that Andy Murray is an ATG grass court player as well.
 
Because Djokovic is not Federer, duh.

Also, to qualify for the ATG on a surface doesn't mean that you have to be the best on it (which you apparently imply).

Not, but you have to be better / greater than a non-ATG on that surface if you are to qualify as an ATG in that surface. Roger Federer is a true hard court ATG because no non-ATG has more hard court grand slam titles in any hard court grand slam tourmanent than him.
 
Not, but you have to be better / greater than a non-ATG on that surface if you are to qualify as an ATG in that surface. Roger Federer is a true hard court ATG because no non-ATG has more hard court grand slam titles in any hard court grand slam tourmanent than him.

Mind = blown.

Read again what you have written.

How does the fact that Federer is an ATG on HC negate Djokovic's claim for such, just because Federer has more HC Majors?

Also, you already said that AO and USO are in fact one surface, so you cannot draw further reference to Nadal, because, if we consider the difference of HC Majors between Djokovic and Nadal (8 vs evtl 4) everything remains the same, as Nadal will have vastly inferior record on the surface.

Furthermore, one has to look at where the line is drawn to how one defines an ATG on a surface.

With potentially 4 HC Majors Nadal is surely poised to make such a claim which is not to say that he will be considered equal to the likes of Federer or Djokovic.

It will be a distinction based on his exceptional results and not a recognition that he is as good as them.

:cool:
 

Backspin1183

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic is and will always be one of the greatest players on hard court. That being said, Nadal is also great on hard court and there's no shame for Djokovic if Nadal has more US Open titles. Djokovic also has more Wimbledon titles than Nadal despite the Spaniard having more finals.
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Nadal is a far greater hard court player. Djokovic's 6 Australian opens don't count. If nadal wins us open 2017 his 4 hard court majors are basically equal to about 9 hard court majors. In fact i put nadal above Federer as hard court goat. Nadal actually has more more majors off clay than fed and Djokovic combined.
 

H_Richardson

Semi-Pro
If Djokovic is not an ATG on HCs because he will have less slams than Nadal at the USO and Nadal isn't an ATG on HCs, won't that mean Fed isn't an ATG either as he has less AOs than Djokovic who isn't an ATG on HCs? Won't this mean that no one is an ATG on hard courts? :rolleyes:
 

Fed881981

Hall of Fame
How would that effect Novak Djokovic's hard court status as an ATG in that surface? Considering the fact that Rafael Nadal isn't an ATG hard court player and he will have more titles at a specific hard court slam, would Novak Djokovic still qualify as a hard court ATG?

The way I see it, an ATG on a specific surface can't have less titles in any grand slam / major tournament on that particular than a non-ATG in that particular surface. Sure, Novak Djokovic is an ATG at Australian Open. However, he is anything but an ATG at US Open and he has been relatively appalling / dreadful at US Open compared to Australian Open. To qualify as a true ATG in a specific surface, one must be consistently good with similar success in all tournaments in that surface. This isn't the case with Novak Djokovic (2 US Opens only to 6 Australian Opens). That's quite a huge disparity compared to something like 5 Australian and US Opens each for Roger Federer.

By the looks of it, it seems like Rafael Nadal will finish his career with more US Open titles and with a more impressive / greater US Open feats / records than Novak Djokovic. Thus, it's entirely debatable if Novak Djokovic could even claim to be an ATG hard court player if a non-ATG hard court player like Rafael Nadal wins more US Open titles.
Djokovic is now 30 years old. At this stage, he has 6 AOs + 2 USO= 8 HC slams.

In January 2010, Fed was less than 29 years old. He won his 4th AO, and of course had already 5 USOs. Total = 9 HC slams. I don't know why people make Djokovic the greatest HC player.
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
If Djokovic is not an ATG on HCs because he will have less slams than Nadal at the USO and Nadal isn't an ATG on HCs, won't that mean Fed isn't an ATG either as he has less AOs than Djokovic who isn't an ATG on HCs? Won't this mean that no one is an ATG on hard courts? :rolleyes:
You have finally realized the truth. I see you have been reading real news over at *************. nadal is the only hard court goat. He should have 5 ao titles at least and at least 5 us opens if not for injuries and the butt foot.
 

TennisATP

Professional
If Djokovic is not an ATG on HCs because he will have less slams than Nadal at the USO and Nadal isn't an ATG on HCs, won't that mean Fed isn't an ATG either as he has less AOs than Djokovic who isn't an ATG on HCs? Won't this mean that no one is an ATG on hard courts? :rolleyes:

Exactly. Therefore by default Nadal is the HC GOAT.
 

TheAssassin

G.O.A.T.
You missed the point. I didn't claim that Nadal would've been better than Djokovic if the supposed event were to happen. Point was, Djokovic having less slams at a hard court grand slam tournament compared to someone who isn't an ATG hard court player (Rafael Nadal) makes it debatable if Djokovic is even an ATG hard court player in the first place (even though he would be a better hard court player than Nadal).

Rafael Nadal certainly isn't an ATG hard court player or a grass court player. He is merely the greatest clay court player of all time. Otherwise, you might as well claim that Andy Murray is an ATG grass court player as well.
Sure, it's debatable if the guy with a record number of Australian Open titles and second most hard court Slams, five World Tour Finals titles and a record number of hard court Masters is even an ATG hard court player. Makes total sense. :rolleyes:
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Also lets not forget Wimbledon. Nadal really should have around 6 Wimbledon titles. There is an argument that he is greater than fed at Wimbledon. This is green clay now let's remember.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Sure, it's debatable if the guy with a record number of Australian Open titles and second most hard court Slams, five World Tour Finals titles and a record number of hard court Masters is even an ATG hard court player. Makes total sense. :rolleyes:

LMAO what is going on at this place
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
It's obvious there is a huge dichotomy between Djokovic's level on slow hcs and fast hcs

I don't think that is obvious tbh. He has 5 others finals from his 2 USO, has like 5+ cincy finals aswell etc. It is that final match that has let him down, and I don't think it is due to him being lesser on faster hard. Quality is certainly there as he wins 6 other matches. He has multiple shanghai titles aswell where the surface there is considered to be pretty fast.

Amount of titles isn't always the answer to how good you are.
 
D

Deleted member 716271

Guest
I don't think that is obvious tbh. He has 5 others finals from his 2 USO, has like 5+ cincy finals aswell etc. It is that final match that has let him down, and I don't think it is due to him being lesser on faster hard. Quality is certainly there as he wins 6 other matches. He has multiple shanghai titles aswell where the surface there is considered to be pretty fast.

Amount of titles isn't always the answer to how good you are.

I do. It is true he has underperformed at USO, it has been his most consistent slam actually for many years and he has had some baffling finals losses that don't seem necessarily due to court speed. However, I think it is clear he is not as dominant there against the top guys in SF and Finals especially. Even if he isn't as good as on slow HC, he was still among the top 2 or 3 at any given time, but just not as good compared to the field. Compare Murray and Federer's record vs him there (and Nadal too actually) compared to AO. Same with Cincy finals losses.

Compare Djokovic's performance at AO/IW/Miami/WTF to Cincy/USO
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
It's kind of embarrassing that Djokovic has won only 2 out of 7 USO finals.2010,2012,2013 and 2016 have been highly disappointing,but I still think he'll win a couple more
You know what's embarassing? Nadal's draws at the US Open.

Starting from the 4th round:
2010 - Lopez, Verdasco, Youzhny (basically Federer's draw in rounds 2-4 at the 2017 US Open LOL), pre-prime tired Djokovic
2013 - Kohlschreiber, Robredo, Gasquet, Djokovic (in dogs**t form)
2017 so far - Dolgopolov, Rublev, Del Potro (who has nothing left in the tank), Anderson/Carreno-Busta in the final
 

tennis4jags

Semi-Pro
It's kind of embarrassing that Djokovic has won only 2 out of 7 USO finals.2010,2012,2013 and 2016 have been highly disappointing,but I still think he'll win a couple more
IMO, especially disappointing year for Djokovic was 2012/13/16 because he was on prime and winning almost all the matches
 

Feather

Legend
You know what's embarassing? Nadal's draws at the US Open.

Starting from the 4th round:
2010 - Lopez, Verdasco, Youzhny (basically Federer's draw in rounds 2-4 at the 2017 US Open LOL), pre-prime tired Djokovic
2013 - Kohlschreiber, Robredo, Gasquet, Djokovic (in dogs**t form)
2017 so far - Dolgopolov, Rublev, Del Potro (who has nothing left in the tank), Anderson/Carreno-Busta in the final

Not just that! Novak Djokovic who came down from 2-1 deficit against Stan Wawrinka and played a long five setter while Rafa had a relatively easy SF with Gasquet!
 

MS_07

Semi-Pro
How would that effect Novak Djokovic's hard court status as an ATG in that surface? Considering the fact that Rafael Nadal isn't an ATG hard court player and he will have more titles at a specific hard court slam, would Novak Djokovic still qualify as a hard court ATG?

The way I see it, an ATG on a specific surface can't have less titles in any grand slam / major tournament on that particular than a non-ATG in that particular surface. Sure, Novak Djokovic is an ATG at Australian Open. However, he is anything but an ATG at US Open and he has been relatively appalling / dreadful at US Open compared to Australian Open. To qualify as a true ATG in a specific surface, one must be consistently good with similar success in all tournaments in that surface. This isn't the case with Novak Djokovic (2 US Opens only to 6 Australian Opens). That's quite a huge disparity compared to something like 5 Australian and US Opens each for Roger Federer.

By the looks of it, it seems like Rafael Nadal will finish his career with more US Open titles and with a more impressive / greater US Open feats / records than Novak Djokovic. Thus, it's entirely debatable if Novak Djokovic could even claim to be an ATG hard court player if a non-ATG hard court player like Rafael Nadal wins more US Open titles.


Nadal is already better than joker.
He's competing with Rogie for GOAT debate. Why are you even bothered to compare him with smaller chums like joker.
many jokers may come n go, rafa is above all of them. case closed.
 

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
It's obvious there is a huge dichotomy between Djokovic's level on slow hcs and fast hcs
He just can not close the deal on faster courts. I do think he does blow a lot of his load the first half of the year tho for what that is worth. And he sucks in windy hot and humid conditions.
 

TheAverageFedererFan

Professional
Would be strange if Nadal won a 3rd US Open. But even if he did I think Djokovic will get 1 more US Open.
But Djokovic has 6 AO Titles, Nadal only has 1.
Or how about Wawrinka getting a 4th major and having more majors then Murray a Big 4 Member.

These things can happen, lets just say that.
 
It's kind of embarrassing that Djokovic has won only 2 out of 7 USO finals.2010,2012,2013 and 2016 have been highly disappointing,but I still think he'll win a couple more
While I agree with the others, I don't see how 2010 can possibly be construed as disappointing. Novak never had any real chance to win that match. Rafa was the favorite all the way and in peak form

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

Jon Snow

Semi-Pro
Djokovic was never good at the USO. He lost to all his rivals there, even bloody Nishikori in 2014 which was embarassing but 2/7 wins? That's a pathetic ratio.

While Nadal has a 2/3 ratio (beating Djokovic twice in the process for the wins) and still has the same number of USOs as Djokovic when Nadal hasn't even played 4 more fnals. Imagine if Nadal was healthy in 2012/2014 USO...he'd be on 4 right about now.
 
It's kind of embarrassing that Djokovic has won only 2 out of 7 USO finals.2010,2012,2013 and 2016 have been highly disappointing,but I still think he'll win a couple more
While I agree with the others, I don't see how 2010 can possibly be construed as disappointing. Novak never had any real chance to win that match. Rafa was the favorite all the way and in peak form

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
How would that effect Novak Djokovic's hard court status as an ATG in that surface? Considering the fact that Rafael Nadal isn't an ATG hard court player and he will have more titles at a specific hard court slam, would Novak Djokovic still qualify as a hard court ATG?.

I have to disagre with your assumption that Nadal is not an ATG on hard courts, specially if he wins this US Open. He is among the 10 best player on hard courts in the Open Era.
 
C

Charlie

Guest
While Nadal has a 2/3 ratio (beating Djokovic twice in the process for the wins) and still has the same number of USOs as Djokovic when Nadal hasn't even played 4 more fnals. Imagine if Nadal was healthy in 2012/2014 USO...he'd be on 4 right about now.
Nadal hasn't played four more finals because he lost earlier to guys like Youzhny, Ferrer, Fognini and Pouille instead.
 

VolleyHelena

Semi-Pro
Nadal hasn't played four more finals because he lost earlier to guys like Youzhny, Ferrer, Fognini and Pouille instead.


what-that-guy-said.jpg
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Nadal hasn't played four more finals because he lost earlier to guys like Youzhny, Ferrer, Fognini and Pouille instead.

Federer hasn't played four more finals because he has lost early to guys like Robredo, Seppi, Berdych or Cilic on Grand Slams on hard courts. So what's your point? It doesn't make Nadal or Federer worse players on hard courts.
 
C

Charlie

Guest
And Djokovic lost to the guy who lost to all those guys, twice. lmao
So it's worse to lose to an all time great like Nadal than it is to lose to guys who achieved nothing noteworthy in comparison? o_O

Ok then. Nadal lost three times this year alone to a guy who was beaten by some Donskoy and a 60 year old Haas. LOL what an embarrassment for the world number 1.
Federer also has lost early to guys like Robredo, Seppi or Berdych on Grand Slams on hard courts. So what's your point? It doesn't make Nadal or Federer worse players on hard courts.
My point? I just gave the guy an explanation why Nadal didn't reach another four US Open finals. It's not like he was robbed of those chances, he simply lost to some players in earlier rounds.
 

Jon Snow

Semi-Pro
So it's worse to lose to an all time great like Nadal than it is to lose to guys who achieved nothing noteworthy in comparison? o_O

Ok then. Nadal lost three times this year alone to a guy who was beaten by some Donskoy and a 60 year old Haas. LOL what an embarrassment for the world number 1.

Oh so Nadal is an ATG now when it suits Djokovic? I thought you were trying to make a stupid point on how he lost to other useless players. This is why you have no point. Djokovic lost to Nadal twice. Who cares if Nadal lost to other players lol he still has the same number of USOs as Djokovic and with less finals to boot. Djokovic is frankly embarassing at the USO.
 
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