If Djokovic remains at 24 slams, is it fair to say Djokovic's passing shot down BP in the 2018 Wimbledon SF is the most consequential shot in history?

If Djokovic remains at 24 slams, is it fair to say Djokovic's passing shot down BP late in the 5th set in the 2018 Wimbledon SF is the most consequential shot in history?
 
I would say almost all 15/40 matches against Federer and the most important against Nadal was decided by Novak return. He used Fedal seconde serves as his third serve with efficiency.

 
bigbadboaz said:
Hard disagree and it's difficult to see many agreeing with this. The AO has caught up dramatically in recent times and - while it might still be #4 - we're clearly talking about one tier of general equals. Djokovic and his run have been a part of its continued rise, and his role in that sense probably increases his status in any rivalry, not decreases.

Also, considering his AO record surpasses Fed's Wim record by a decent margin.. it's hard to see why the choice of venue makes him appear lesser in this particular comparison.
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There’s Wimbledon and then the rest in terms of prestige, but a grand slam is still a grand slam
 
weakera said:
If Djokovic remains at 24 slams, is it fair to say Djokovic's passing shot down BP late in the 5th set in the 2018 Wimbledon SF is the most consequential shot in history?
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Djokovic got passed by Federer with a similar shot in the previous game to go down a break.
 
MeatTornado said:
I have always maintained the belief that the outcome of Wim18 was inconsequential. Just being in a match like that proved that Novak was back. Honestly, he was back the moment he decided to actually get the elbow surgery instead of retiring. Once he made that choice, his return to the top was inevitable.

He came back too early in the spring and it was disastrous. But things were already improving throughout the clay season, and then it culminated on the grass. If he lost that SF then all it would've done is prove to himself that he can play on Rafa's level and given just a little bit extra motivation for the USO, which ended up being an easy win. From there I can't imagine 2019-23 playing out any differently.
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This doesn't make sense, if he loses that match, even with his resurgence, it wouldn't then help him make up the -1/+1 slam result with Nadal. So how could the outcome be inconsequential? The question isn't would losing this match have stifled Djokovic for longer, in which case your post makes sense. The question is, because this was virtually a one shot swing between the 'slam race' being 24-22 vs. 23-23, is this the most consequential shot ever?
 
weakera said:
This doesn't make sense, if he loses that match, even with his resurgence, it wouldn't then help him make up the -1/+1 slam result with Nadal. So how could the outcome be inconsequential? The question isn't would losing this match have stifled Djokovic for longer, in which case your post makes sense. The question is, because this was virtually a one shot swing between the 'slam race' being 24-22 vs. 23-23, is this the most consequential shot ever?
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If he needed more slams, he would've found a way to win more slams. Maybe he ends up actually taking the vaccine, maybe he's more motivated going into 2024 than the half-assed offseason he had. He'll find a way or die trying.
 
MeatTornado said:
If he needed more slams, he would've found a way to win more slams. Maybe he ends up actually taking the vaccine, maybe he's more motivated going into 2024 than the half-assed offseason he had. He'll find a way or die trying.
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Well I’m glad it didn’t come to that. Sincaraz would have blocked Djokovic out after 2023. If Djokovic was still on 21 or 22 it wouldn’t look good. That is why I said Djokovic got the slam record in the nick of time before things changed. Those close big 3 matches were vital and thankfully Djokovic won a lot of them.
 
Djokovic_is_the_best#1 said:
Well I’m glad it didn’t come to that. Sincaraz would have blocked Djokovic out after 2023. If Djokovic was still on 21 or 22 it wouldn’t look good. That is why I said Djokovic got the slam record in the nick of time before things changed. Those close big 3 matches were vital and thankfully Djokovic won a lot of them.
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I still see AO 24 as very winnable if he was fully motivated. That wasn't an injury or Sinner going god-mode, he was just very lethargic that day.
 
MeatTornado said:
If he needed more slams, he would've found a way to win more slams. Maybe he ends up actually taking the vaccine, maybe he's more motivated going into 2024 than the half-assed offseason he had. He'll find a way or die trying.
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Agree to disagree, especially on the vax
 
weakera said:
Also it's okay to say Djokovic would still have taken the record, but that isn't the question - name the more consequential point if this isn't it?
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To me the match points saved against Fed were the biggest. I think in us open 2011 if Djoko doesn’t hit that insane return then Fed wins and probably loses to Rafa in final. The same in 2019 Wimbledon final where Fed a point away.

If those go different way, nadal wins the slam race and Fed could even end level with Djoko.
 
bigbadboaz said:
I'm guessing you mean that you're "older" and have a formative image of it as a joke Slam.

I actually am as well, but it's hard to ignore the incredible job they've done in growing the event. I see its rise in status as far back as when Agassi began his 2000s run, and by the time Fed was on a tear its coverage and magnitude seemed pretty much equal. Blue Plexicushion-AO undoubtedly matched the other three for atmosphere. Depending on where you draw the line, that's just about 20 years of equilibrium - more than enough for me to see it as it is rather than what it was.

Regardless - for any number of factors including what's listed above - I find it hard to see ten Australian Open titles as anything but a brag for the Djokovic booster (which, as long as we're doing this - I am not).
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I'm reluctant to trash tLk the AO as it's disrespectful to Novaks achievements. And other players. Its just I still find the difference in coverage and reaction to the AO compares to the FO and W to be vastly less. That said I've noticed the USO doesn't get anywhere near the coverage it used to so maybe its a case of clay and grass are more prestigious than hard?
 
Turning Pro said:
We could go all day with Nadal either being injured during play, missing the slam (e.g Us 12, 14, 20) or defaulting the next round due to injury (e.g Rg 16', Wimby 09, 22') in approximately 18-24 slams. TONS of opportunities lost.

That's 4-6 years worth of slams with the 2nd highest slam hit rate in history (22 slams won/67 slams entered, 32.8%) (Behind prodigy Borg) but also with a MUCH higher sample rate and longevity compared to Borg who retired at 25 who himself is up there with the Wimbledon and Roland Garros GOATS.
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As his uncle Toni said:
Rafael is an injured player who plays tennis.
:notworthy:
 
MeatTornado said:
If he needed more slams, he would've found a way to win more slams. Maybe he ends up actually taking the vaccine, maybe he's more motivated going into 2024 than the half-assed offseason he had. He'll find a way or die trying.
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He'll find a way or die trying.
Really sum up Novak tenacity.
[/QUOTE]
 
Djokovic_is_the_best#1 said:
To me the match points saved against Fed were the biggest. I think in us open 2011 if Djoko doesn’t hit that insane return then Fed wins and probably loses to Rafa in final. The same in 2019 Wimbledon final where Fed a point away.

If those go different way, nadal wins the slam race and Fed could even end level with Djoko.
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I think that was too many years ago, it's more difficult to imagine the butterfly effect, in addition to the final not being a clear-cut Nadal win like 18 vs. Anderson would have been. But a valid choice
 
TennisGrandpA said:
Different sports, i won’t even call F1 sport due to Cars playing such a decisive role in win. Hamilton was a giant until he drove the best cars by miles and for three years in a row he has been struggling even with somewhat good car and then Max going off hill when his Car’s superiority goes away.
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F1 is different from Tennis/Football/Rubgy, it is not a level playing field because the best drivers do get the best cars and in the end driving at top speed and sustaining the twists and turns is also a skill. So it is a sport, just not like football/tennis.
 
Razer said:
F1 is different from Tennis/Football/Rubgy, it is not a level playing field because the best drivers do get the best cars and in the end driving at top speed and sustaining the twists and turns is also a skill. So it is a sport, just not like football/tennis.
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I doubt best drivers are driving the best cars , Hamilton dominated for 6 years and because he had the best car by miles and his car becomes as good as second best or even just best he was totally exposed , give Fernando Alonso that Car and he would have won 2 championship out of last 4.
 
TennisGrandpA said:
I doubt best drivers are driving the best cars , Hamilton dominated for 6 years and because he had the best car by miles and his car becomes as good as second best or even just best he was totally exposed , give Fernando Alonso that Car and he would have won 2 championship out of last 4.
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Alonso had his time in Ferrari and McLaren, he did not win and instead he complained that the team is favoring Hamilton etc... similar to Bret Hart complaining about WWF giving preferential treatment to younger guy Shawn Michaels.... these sort of crybaby behaviour is never appreciated.

Djokovic himself cries sometimes of preferential treatment given to Federer and Nadal, it looks so bad. Nobody likes crybabies.

If McLaren were giving preferential treatment to Hamilton because Hamilton is british and younger then it should be upto Alonso to out pace him on the track and make McLaren favor him instead.... nobody is a fool, everyone backs a winning horse, nepotism itself has its limits.

Alonso was a crybaby, he was skilled but he was a crybaby.
 
Razer said:
Alonso had his time in Ferrari and McLaren, he did not win and instead he complained that the team is favoring Hamilton etc... similar to Bret Hart complaining about WWF giving preferential treatment to younger guy Shawn Michaels.... these sort of crybaby behaviour is never appreciated.

Djokovic himself cries sometimes of preferential treatment given to Federer and Nadal, it looks so bad. Nobody likes crybabies.

If McLaren were giving preferential treatment to Hamilton because Hamilton is british and younger then it should be upto Alonso to out pace him on the track and make McLaren favor him instead.... nobody is a fool, everyone backs a winning horse, nepotism itself has its limits.

Alonso was a crybaby, he was skilled but he was a crybaby.
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Alonso drove Ferrari and McLaren when they were not fastest lol , you’re comaring F1 to Tennis? lol no wonder how good of a driver you’re you can’t do anything if your car is not best. Hamilton is not even second best driver in his car , that speaks volume , dude got totally exposed when his car was taken away. Anyway, F1 is not a sport it’s entertainment.
 
Slam race, maybe. Goat debate? Nah? End of the day one guy had a chronic disease no one in the history of sports has gone pro with, didn’t face an easier field early on and barely got to profit from an easier field post his prime, and still won 22 slams and set the most impressive record in tennis history.
 
Rafa the King said:
Slam race, maybe. Goat debate? Nah? End of the day one guy had a chronic disease no one in the history of sports has gone pro with, didn’t face an easier field early on and barely got to profit from an easier field post his prime, and still won 22 slams and set the most impressive record in tennis history.
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That is a true fan post.
Nadal body took the most toll in slam race.
 
TennisGrandpA said:
Alonso drove Ferrari and McLaren when they were not fastest lol , you’re comaring F1 to Tennis? lol no wonder how good of a driver you’re you can’t do anything if your car is not best. Hamilton is not even second best driver in his car , that speaks volume , dude got totally exposed when his car was taken away. Anyway, F1 is not a sport it’s entertainment.
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I never liked Hamilton anyway, I donno why... maybe it is his face.... it is very annoying to me.
 
Razer said:
I never liked Hamilton anyway, I donno why... maybe it is his face.... it is very annoying to me.
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He’s very cocky and annoying to me , i used to like Michael Schumacher , back then he won many championship while his car was not miles better than McLaren and races ( championship ) used to be close. f1 has been ruined in last 15-20 years for me.
 
Rafa the King said:
Slam race, maybe. Goat debate? Nah? End of the day one guy had a chronic disease no one in the history of sports has gone pro with, didn’t face an easier field early on and barely got to profit from an easier field post his prime, and still won 22 slams and set the most impressive record in tennis history.
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Barely got to face an easier field post prime…Sure…When have 8 slams become chump change?
 
mike danny said:
Maybe it was just age catching up to him. Nobody sane is unmotivated in a major semi.
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He's played significantly better tennis since then. And even played better in the 2nd half of that match, so I wouldn't blame age. Either way, he was not locked in. He was missing shots by a mile and barely moving, kinda moping around the court between points.

And if anyone could lack motivation in a major semi, it's the guy with the slam record whose main rival's retirement was imminent. He had a 2 slam lead that was completely safe. That whole season felt like he was just killing time until the Olympics. And I'm not sure what exactly he's still playing for now.
 
MeatTornado said:
He's played significantly better tennis since then. And even played better in the 2nd half of that match, so I wouldn't blame age. Either way, he was not locked in. He was missing shots by a mile and barely moving, kinda moping around the court between points.

And if anyone could lack motivation in a major semi, it's the guy with the slam record whose main rival's retirement was imminent. He had a 2 slam lead that was completely safe. That whole season felt like he was just killing time until the Olympics. And I'm not sure what exactly he's still playing for now.
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It just means his form was pretty poor at that event and finally ran into someone who could punish him, which guys like Tsitsipas and Fritz are never going to do
 
mike danny said:
Barely got to face an easier field post prime…Sure…When have 8 slams become chump change?
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Got 3 slams on the easy list: 2017 and 2019 USO, and 2022 AO. Beat a HC slam winner in everyone of them btw and especially 2019 USO, because of the Med performance in the final, is reasonable imo.

Honestly none of those 5 RGs were weak. RG field honestly the only field which has consistently been decent in the weak era. Look at these QF-F runs:

PCB-Thiem-Wawrinka
Schwartzman-Del Potro-Thiem
Nishikori-Federer-Thiem
Sinner-Schwartzman-Djokovic
Djokovic-Zverev-Ruud

Now tell me which of the AO, WIM or USO wins between 17 and 22 were decent like these. Honestly, not too many.
 
Rafa the King said:
Got 3 slams on the easy list: 2017 and 2019 USO, and 2022 AO. Beat a HC slam winner in everyone of them btw and especially 2019 USO, because of the Med performance in the final, is reasonable imo.

Honestly none of those 5 RGs were weak. RG field honestly the only field which has consistently been decent in the weak era. Look at these QF-F runs:

PCB-Thiem-Wawrinka
Schwartzman-Del Potro-Thiem
Nishikori-Federer-Thiem
Sinner-Schwartzman-Djokovic
Djokovic-Zverev-Ruud

Now tell me which of the AO, WIM or USO wins between 17 and 22 were decent like these. Honestly, not too many.
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Then we have to re-evaluate what early weak field is
 
MeatTornado said:
He's played significantly better tennis since then. And even played better in the 2nd half of that match, so I wouldn't blame age. Either way, he was not locked in. He was missing shots by a mile and barely moving, kinda moping around the court between points.

And if anyone could lack motivation in a major semi, it's the guy with the slam record whose main rival's retirement was imminent. He had a 2 slam lead that was completely safe. That whole season felt like he was just killing time until the Olympics. And I'm not sure what exactly he's still playing for now.
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Sometimes when players start to decline (or hit a new stage of decline), it takes them by surprise at first and thus they look very weak. After reflection, they are able to find ways to cover for it and thus they do a bit better again later (though rarely as well as before). Thus, form and results don't look like neat lines, but waves oscillating, albeit with a clear overall direction.

A related phenomenon is that I think that fans often mistakenly have the view that players are at their best during their initial breakout run. It can be true that this is when their results are at their best, but that's because they are taking the field by surprise. After a while, opponents figure out ways to combat the player's improved game, and this makes it seem as though the player has declined early, but they haven't really, it's just that they've been found out.
 
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