If Federer's backhand cannot handle lefty topspin, why has he never lost to Verdasco?

tennis_hack

tennis_hack

Banned
...He's never lost to Verdasco or Bellucci. Including wins on clay.

Both are lefties with extremely heavy semi-western to full western forehands, and I would bet that they rival Nadal in terms of topspin forehand rpm's... (Remember that you only have the data for Nadal's topspin rpm's.. You don't have data for 95% of the rest of the tour, yet everyone blindly assumes they don't hit as much as topspin as Nadal).

Why do they not have wins over Federer?

Does it prove that Federer's problems against Nadal are not only backhand related? Some of it is mental? Some of it is because of Nadal's endurance being greater than Federer's?
 
Nadal moves about ten times better than either of them, so he can hang with Federer in points until he is able to utilize his stately. Federer can totally outmaneuver Bellucci and Verdasco and force them to play into his patterns, while Nadal is able to impose his patterns on Federer. That's how I see it.
 
6a00d83420958953ef016761fc619d970b-pi
 
crazyups said:
Because Nadal's topspin is much bigger.
Click to expand...

Is it really?

People just blindly assume that because all we've seen him measured against is Federer, Djokovic, Murray and Sampras. So Nadal hits more topspin than an eastern grip forehand player, an early hitting machine baseliner, a flat hitting counterpuncher, and a 90's serve-volleyer? Great. Let's see him measured against some actual spin-fiend clay-courters. We already know that Bruguera hit as much topspin as Nadal without modern string technology.

Do you have the rpm data of Verdasco and Bellucci? If you do, please share, otherwise, you can't just assume that Nadal hits way more topspin than them - I don't think he does. Verdasco is taller and more built than Nadal, and Bellucci is bigger and has longer levers to hit with. Both swing upwards steeply and have semi-western and full western grips.

I think they hit as much topspin as Nadal on the forehand. Nadal's topspin is not some sort of mythical thing that cannot be equaled or bettered.
 
Ain't the topspin that bother's Fed, it's the consistency of shot that get's to Fed's backhand over and over again, exposing a slight tendency to push it back instead of fully power it back.
Nadal is a better player, more consistent, than Verdasco or any other big topspinning lefty. And once Fed defends his backhand, Nadal is good enough to exploit the open court.
 
tennis_hack said:
Is it really?

People just blindly assume that because all we've seen him measured against is Federer, Djokovic, Murray and Sampras. So Nadal hits more topspin than an eastern grip forehand player, an early hitting machine baseliner, a flat hitting counterpuncher, and a 90's serve-volleyer? Great. Let's see him measured against some actual spin-fiend clay-courters. We already know that Bruguera hit as much topspin as Nadal without modern string technology.

Do you have the rpm data of Verdasco and Bellucci? If you do, please share, otherwise, you can't just assume that Nadal hits way more topspin than them - I don't think he does. Verdasco is taller and more built than Nadal, and Bellucci is bigger and has longer levers to hit with. Both swing upwards steeply and have semi-western and full western grips.

I think they hit as much topspin as Nadal on the forehand. Nadal's topspin is not some sort of mythical thing that cannot be equaled or bettered.
Click to expand...

I bet Andreev hit more topspin than Nadal too. Just crazy racquet head speed and he had a more extreme grip than Rafael as well.
 
Don't matter how much topspin a player can generate, he still has to hit the ball IN, do it over and over, and do it when the OTHER guy is moving him around hitting HIS big topspin shots.
Tennis is not about hitting more topspin, is not about hitting harder, is not about beiing stronger, faster, or better looking.
 
Federer's problem with Nadal is far more then a backhand issue. It is Nadal's combination of speed, stamina, mental strength and heavy ball that gives him trouble. He never lost to Verdasco or Bellucci because those guys only hit heavy. They are not great movers, have average stamina and are complete headcases.
 
tennis_hack said:
...He's never lost to Verdasco or Bellucci. Including wins on clay.

Both are lefties with extremely heavy semi-western to full western forehands, and I would bet that they rival Nadal in terms of topspin forehand rpm's... (Remember that you only have the data for Nadal's topspin rpm's.. You don't have data for 95% of the rest of the tour, yet everyone blindly assumes they don't hit as much as topspin as Nadal).

Why do they not have wins over Federer?

Does it prove that Federer's problems against Nadal are not only backhand related? Some of it is mental? Some of it is because of Nadal's endurance being greater than Federer's?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure Federer's endurance is not worse than Nadal's.
 
Tennis Hack, you do know, it's the quality of the player, not his RPM on groundies, that determines his tennis results, don't you?
Sure, some players hit with more RPM than Djokovic, Murray, Ferrer, or Fed, but they don't win against those guys.
 
I also agree that it's more than just the lefty topspin, but it is a big part of how Nadal is able to take control of the rallies. Fed's backhand can handle the heavy spin, but it breaks down over time. Against Verdasco or Belluci, he can redirect the shot down the line safely to target his opponent's backhands, but Rafa is so quick that he runs around many backhands, and continues to target Fed's backhand.
 
The-Champ said:
I'm pretty sure Federer's endurance is not worse than Nadal's.
Click to expand...

You cannot be serious!


Seriously, Federer's endurance has never been exceptional. I have seen him run out of gas in quite a few big matches. He isn't bad by any means, but doesn't belong in the same sentence as Nadal when it comes to endurance.
 
Yeah, think it's been pretty much covered:

1. Verdasco's FH isn't as heavy as Nadal's.

2. Nadal's footwork is much sharper than Verdasco's, and he can quickly get around balls Federer hits back to hit his devastating inside-out forehand.

3. Nadal eats up Federer's slice.
 
There are several players with more heft than Nadal. But a tennis player is a combination of power, speed, agility, tact and instinct.

Players like Dasco have may be power, speed, but they dont have agility, tact and instinct.
Another example was James Blake. He has power, speed and agility but somehow to me, he always lacked the tact and instinct against the best of the players. Always in the wrong position to hit the shot, especially against Fed.
 
Sid_Vicious said:
You cannot be serious!


Seriously, Federer's endurance has never been exceptional. I have seen him run out of gas in quite a few big matches. He isn't bad by any means, but doesn't belong in the same sentence as Nadal when it comes to endurance.
Click to expand...


Nadal's so-called exceptional endurance is way overblown. I've seen him run out of gas against , Djokovic, Murray, Coria etc. Not that I doubt you, but which match did you see Federer exhibit the "running out of gas"?.
 
If you played tennis or watched and understood tennis better, you would not be asking this questions.

Nadal is simply a better more consistent player who has superb defense.
It usually takes players with amazing defensive skills to beat Federer.
Federer rarely lost to any all out aggressive player like Verdasco (at least not during his peak years).

From a more technical standpoint.

Just because 2 players both hit with heavy topspin does not mean their ball trajectory is the same.
Nadal hits the type of topspin that kicks up while Verdasco hits the type of topspin that kicks forward. Even Federer himself hits with a ton of topspin but again his topspin also kicks forward more than upwards like Nadal.

It's the high topspin shots which Nadal hits on bouncy courts that trouble Federer more than anything else. Especially when they go to his BH side.


And should I even go to the mental side of the sport? Are you seriously comparing Verdasco to Nadal... I mean c'mon now... We are talking about Verdasco, the guy who double faults exclusively during important points to Nadal who is one of the strongest players mentally in the sport. Do we even need to discuss this? I mean c'mon...

tennis_hack said:
...He's never lost to Verdasco or Bellucci. Including wins on clay.

Both are lefties with extremely heavy semi-western to full western forehands, and I would bet that they rival Nadal in terms of topspin forehand rpm's... (Remember that you only have the data for Nadal's topspin rpm's.. You don't have data for 95% of the rest of the tour, yet everyone blindly assumes they don't hit as much as topspin as Nadal).

Why do they not have wins over Federer?

Does it prove that Federer's problems against Nadal are not only backhand related? Some of it is mental? Some of it is because of Nadal's endurance being greater than Federer's?
Click to expand...
 
tennis_hack said:
Is it really?

People just blindly assume that because all we've seen him measured against is Federer, Djokovic, Murray and Sampras. So Nadal hits more topspin than an eastern grip forehand player, an early hitting machine baseliner, a flat hitting counterpuncher, and a 90's serve-volleyer? Great. Let's see him measured against some actual spin-fiend clay-courters. We already know that Bruguera hit as much topspin as Nadal without modern string technology.

Do you have the rpm data of Verdasco and Bellucci? If you do, please share, otherwise, you can't just assume that Nadal hits way more topspin than them - I don't think he does. Verdasco is taller and more built than Nadal, and Bellucci is bigger and has longer levers to hit with. Both swing upwards steeply and have semi-western and full western grips.

I think they hit as much topspin as Nadal on the forehand. Nadal's topspin is not some sort of mythical thing that cannot be equaled or bettered.
Click to expand...

I don't know how much spin Verdasco generates but it doesn't seem to push Roger behind the baseline. Nadal's key strategy is to force Federer out of his aggressive style and force him to play defence on his terms. The weight of his ball almost always succeeds in pushing Federer well behind the baseline unless it's on a quick, low-bouncing surface where his bounce gets killed and the shot sits in Federer's strike-zone.
 
The-Champ said:
Nadal's so-called exceptional endurance is way overblown. I've seen him run out of gas against , Djokovic, Murray, Coria etc. Not that I doubt you, but which match did you see Federer exhibit the "running out of gas"?.
Click to expand...
Nadal's endurance has definitely worsened over time but dude, there are so many matches I could name for Federer. Wimbledon 2008 fifth set, USO 2009, hell, look at USO 2010. The guy TANKED the two sets he lost in order to save himself for the fifth and if he made it, the Final. He was worried already that his stamina wasn't going to hold up in the final. I'd even argue the Olympic final of 2012.

Federer doesn't huff and puff but he gets tired alright. There are fifth sets he's won only on the strength of his serve. You can see he stops running after balls at times during fifth sets. He's also prone to mis-time the ball the longer the match goes on against guys who make him play longer points. People chalk it to being mentally weak. I'm however almost certain it's a combination of lack of patience for that sort of play and tiredness.
 
Federer20042006 said:
Yeah, think it's been pretty much covered:

1. Verdasco's FH isn't as heavy as Nadal's.

2. Nadal's footwork is much sharper than Verdasco's, and he can quickly get around balls Federer hits back to hit his devastating inside-out forehand.

3. Nadal eats up Federer's slice.
Click to expand...

3 is something that many overlook, its not funny ....
 
mandy01 said:
I don't know how much spin Verdasco generates but it doesn't seem to push Roger behind the baseline. Nadal's key strategy is to force Federer out of his aggressive style and force him to play defence on his terms. The weight of his ball almost always succeeds in pushing Federer well behind the baseline unless it's on a quick, low-bouncing surface where his bounce gets killed and the shot sits in Federer's strike-zone.
Click to expand...

I've seen figures that show Verdasco's average topspin around 3500 RPM's, which is a very similar value to Nadal. The guy hits HUGE when he is given time, and has a very wristy spinny stroke. I think the difference is that Verdasco isn't able to hit many forehands against Federer because of his lack of speed and his propensity to make unforced errors when hitting uncomfortable shots. Federer dictates the play against Nando, nearly always.
 
Main thing is movement. Nadal is one of the best movers/defenders on Earth. That coupled with having a Top 5 of all time forehand makes him so devastating.
 
President said:
I've seen figures that show Verdasco's average topspin around 3500 RPM's, which is a very similar value to Nadal. The guy hits HUGE when he is given time, and has a very wristy spinny stroke. I think the difference is that Verdasco isn't able to hit many forehands against Federer because of his lack of speed and his propensity to make unforced errors when hitting uncomfortable shots. Federer dictates the play against Nando, nearly always.
Click to expand...

where are the figures
 
tacou said:
where are the figures
Click to expand...

They showed the averages during Verdasco's match against Murray at Wimbledon, I can't find the image but the topspin value was definitely in the 3000's if I remember right. Murray was significantly lower too.
 
The answer is very simple.

Nadal was never afraid of Roger's presence on court whereas guys like Verdasco and Bellucci would crap their pants eventually, if not from the start.

Yeah, Rafa moves better than any of these lefties but the most important part is mental.

There is no reason why Verdasco shouldn't give Fed a tough time any time they meet since he is a lefty who hits a very heavy ball and unlike others, I don't think Dasco has average or bad footwork, he actually moves quite well for a heavy guy.

What does him in is the fact that he is a major headcase. Look for his AO 09 play to see his huge potential but his mental midgetry basically killed his career.
 
Last edited:
Very interesting discussion.
Roger's main problem is about Nadal's left hand topspin ,of course .But, does anyone pay attention to the court? Especially the indoor hard court such as that in London O2. If the ball didn't jump too high, even on Roger's backhand side, Roger still could take the ball early and handle it well. Maybe this could explain why on indoor hard court, Roger still leads the H2H record against Nadal, especially in WTF.
 
Nadal's forehand is the best on the tour. He moves better than almost anybody. Federer is able to gain control of the rally against slightly lesser players who play the Spanish style, but not against Nadal. BTW, Nadal puts sidespin on the forehand, not topspin.
 
Let me copy something I wrote like three years ago. The stats may be a tad off now (3 years later), but the point still stands:

**************

Match record against lefties:
68-24.

That's 61-10 minus Nadal. He's 11-0 against Lopez & Verdasco. 4-1 against Koubek, that lone loss being in 2001. Hasn't played Melzer.
Since 2004 (his rise to #1), he has lost against lefties (not counting Nadal) 0 times.
In 2003, he lost to Squillari. That's it. He hasn't lost to a lefty not named Nadal since January 2003.

Conclusion:

IT'S NADAL.

**************************************

His record now stands at 80-28, which is 0.741. A year ago it was 68-24 which is .739. He's doing better NOW than a year ago against lefties.

Edit 2014: His record now is 98-35, which is 0.737. Arguably NO difference.

Give it a rest. It's Nadal.

Edit:

2010: 68-24 minus 7-14 = 61-10
2011: 80-28 minus 8-17 = 72-11
2014: 98-35 minus 10-23 = 88-12

Come on. Can't be more any more obvious than this. He only lost TWICE to a lefty player not named Nadal in the past 10 years. Who was it? Melzer? Who else? Cant remember.
 
Andres said:
Let me copy something I wrote like three years ago. The stats may be a tad off now (3 years later), but the point still stands:

**************

Match record against lefties:
68-24.

That's 61-10 minus Nadal. He's 11-0 against Lopez & Verdasco. 4-1 against Koubek, that lone loss being in 2001. Hasn't played Melzer.
Since 2004 (his rise to #1), he has lost against lefties (not counting Nadal) 0 times.
In 2003, he lost to Squillari. That's it. He hasn't lost to a lefty not named Nadal since January 2003.

Conclusion:

IT'S NADAL.

**************************************

His record now stands at 80-28, which is 0.741. A year ago it was 68-24 which is .739. He's doing better NOW than a year ago against lefties.

Edit 2014: His record now is 98-35, which is 0.737. Arguably NO difference.

Give it a rest. It's Nadal.

Edit:

2010: 68-24 minus 7-14 = 61-10
2011: 80-28 minus 8-17 = 72-11
2014: 98-35 minus 10-23 = 88-12

Come on. Can't be more any more obvious than this. He only lost TWICE to a lefty player not named Nadal in the past 10 years. Who was it? Melzer? Who else? Cant remember.
Click to expand...

I completlely agree. Federer has acutally a great record against lefties. What most of you don't see is Nadal beats Federer because he is simply a "better" and "stronger" player than Roger.
 
anantak2k said:
Nadal is simply a better more consistent player who has superb defense.
It usually takes players with amazing defensive skills to beat Federer.
Federer rarely lost to any all out aggressive player like Verdasco (at least not during his peak years).

From a more technical standpoint.

Just because 2 players both hit with heavy topspin does not mean their ball trajectory is the same.
Nadal hits the type of topspin that kicks up while Verdasco hits the type of topspin that kicks forward. Even Federer himself hits with a ton of topspin but again his topspin also kicks forward more than upwards like Nadal.

It's the high topspin shots which Nadal hits on bouncy courts that trouble Federer more than anything else. Especially when they go to his BH side.
Click to expand...

^this^

I saw the top players live for the first time @ BNP Paribas Masters last fall, and I was amazed of how much spin Nadal puts on the ball - I mean the ball lands on the service line and still is high @ the baseline. They didn't play against each other, but when Federer played (and won) against Del Potro, he had little trouble matching Del Potro's insane flat-playing tempo. Nadal (in form) is able to find all sorts of insane angles from the baseline, from both sides - and he has the skills to wait it out.
 
Andres said:
Let me copy something I wrote like three years ago. The stats may be a tad off now (3 years later), but the point still stands:

**************

Match record against lefties:
68-24.

That's 61-10 minus Nadal. He's 11-0 against Lopez & Verdasco. 4-1 against Koubek, that lone loss being in 2001. Hasn't played Melzer.
Since 2004 (his rise to #1), he has lost against lefties (not counting Nadal) 0 times.
In 2003, he lost to Squillari. That's it. He hasn't lost to a lefty not named Nadal since January 2003.

Conclusion:

IT'S NADAL.

**************************************

His record now stands at 80-28, which is 0.741. A year ago it was 68-24 which is .739. He's doing better NOW than a year ago against lefties.

Edit 2014: His record now is 98-35, which is 0.737. Arguably NO difference.

Give it a rest. It's Nadal.

Edit:

2010: 68-24 minus 7-14 = 61-10
2011: 80-28 minus 8-17 = 72-11
2014: 98-35 minus 10-23 = 88-12

Come on. Can't be more any more obvious than this. He only lost TWICE to a lefty player not named Nadal in the past 10 years. Who was it? Melzer? Who else? Cant remember.
Click to expand...

True that. As a Finn and hardcore Nieminen's (who's lefty) fan, I have read a lot about lefties and their stats. Well, at least he hasn't lost to Nieminen, that's for sure.
 
Last edited:
Lefty topspin is one thing, ludicrously towering moon balls are quite another.

Rafa simply has no shame when it comes to his shot selection--anything goes, if it gets the job done. He is unlike most everyone else in this regard.

Rewatching last night clips of Dolgo's victory over Rafa from last week at IW, I was embarrassed just to be watching Rafa hitting those absolutely ski-slope-sized moon ball shots at Dolgo, hoping that would coax errors from him. It is obviously effective, but Rafa truly plays something that looks like ladies tennis from the nineteen seventies sometimes, whereas most everyone else would never stoop to this.
 
Lefty topspin is one thing, ludicrously towering moon balls are quite another.

Rafa simply has no shame when it comes to his shot selection--anything goes, if it gets the job done. He is unlike most everyone else in this regard.

Rewatching clips of Dolgo's IW victory over Rafa, I was embarrassed just to be watching Rafa hitting those absolutely ski-slope-sized moon ball shots, him hoping to coax errors by them. It is obviously effective, but sometimes Rafa truly plays something that looks like ladies tennis from the nineteen seventies, whereas most every other male pro would never stoop to this, not to mention a great number of the women either...but Rafa? well, he will do just about whatever it takes to win.
 
DeShaun said:
Lefty topspin is one thing, ludicrously towering moon balls are quite another.

Rafa simply has no shame when it comes to his shot selection--anything goes, if it gets the job done. He is unlike most everyone else in this regard.

Rewatching clips of Dolgo's IW victory over Rafa, I was embarrassed just to be watching Rafa hitting those absolutely ski-slope-sized moon ball shots, him hoping to coax errors by them. It is obviously effective, but sometimes Rafa truly plays something that looks like ladies tennis from the nineteen seventies, whereas most every other male pro would never stoop to this, not to mention a great number of the women either...but Rafa? well, he will do just about whatever it takes to win.
Click to expand...

"ludicrous". "stoop". "no shame".

wow.

but there's something interesting you mention here. basically even if you do not like his play, you do think Nadal is unique among all the professionals in terms of style. is that correct?
 
other leftys may have similar topspin but like people have mentioned, nadal has better movement. has better shot selection/instincts on what shots to hit well. knows how to control the match's pace better. he's more opportunistic in spite of playing a very patterned approach to the point. his serve isn't as big so he's less likely to suffer nerves if he isn't serving well. he knows he can defend it a lot better. and finally he's a smarter player so he implements adjustments to how the other person is playing a lot quicker to slow/stall/stop momentum if a player is getting hot against them. (honorable mention to rosol and nalbandian and early black for being able to power through this rarely)
 
You're assuming Fed can't handle lefty topspin because he isn't losing to Nadal? Nadal has many qualities that make him difficult to beat including, but not limited to, his ferocious competitive drive, great court coverage, fact that he is a righty playing lefthanded, etc. Take away one or more of those and you could see Fed beating him on a regular basis irregardless of the lefty topspin.
 
ttbrowne said:
You're assuming Fed can't handle lefty topspin because he isn't losing to Nadal? Nadal has many qualities that make him difficult to beat including, but not limited to, his ferocious competitive drive, great court coverage, fact that he is a righty playing lefthanded, etc. Take away one or more of those and you could see Fed beating him on a regular basis irregardless of the lefty topspin.
Click to expand...

how does him as "as righty playing lefthanded" help him?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

tennis_hack
  • Locked
  • Poll Poll
How many French Open's for Nadal if he had Federer's backhand?
Replies
20
Views
5K
Chanwan
Chanwan
E
Which pro hits the most topspin when averaging forehand AND backhand?
Replies
12
Views
9K
Clay lover
Clay lover
T
  • Poll Poll
Would Federer's backhand have a weakness to Nadal if he used a semi-western backhand grip?
Replies
17
Views
2K
Tennis_Hands
T
C
Where does Federer's TOPSPIN backhand rank?
2
Replies
84
Views
10K
Holmes
Holmes
I
I cannot believe Federer still gets trolled after that
Replies
15
Views
2K
counter_puncher
counter_puncher
Back
Top