If Jannik Sinner and Rafael Nadal were born in the same era, how many Roland Garros titles would Nadal have won?

How many RG titles does Nadal win if Sinner was born in the same era as him?

  • 0-2

    Votes: 19 10.9%
  • 2-5

    Votes: 8 4.6%
  • 6-9

    Votes: 5 2.9%
  • 10-13

    Votes: 6 3.4%
  • still 14

    Votes: 137 78.3%

  • Total voters
    175
And here come the people with the memory of a goldfish, forgetting just how insane peak Nadal was on clay. 14 titles in 18 appearances there, beating some of the best players to ever hold a racket over and over again in the process, isn't enough to overcome the mighty Sinner, who has done jack squat at RG thus far. Lol. Ridiculous thread.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Sure, whatever. I've actually watched all of them play. Never seen anyone hit better passing shots than Lendl. Look, a guy like Lendl probably hit more passing shots in a month than Djokovic or Nadal did in a year. You know, practice makes perfect.

I've watched them all too... live I might add...

They weren't better. Looks like we just agree to disagree.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
And here come the people with the memory of a goldfish, forgetting just how insane peak Nadal was on clay. 14 titles in 18 appearances there, beating some of the best players to ever hold a racket over and over again in the process, isn't enough to overcome the mighty Sinner, who has done jack squat at RG thus far. Lol. Ridiculous thread.
No no

No no.

Sinner has taken raz to five out hitting him. He has great forehand and backhand combo and can change direction. His backhand has legit chance to be best ever. Due to sheer pace and ability to consistently hit deep.

Just putting words like "jack squat" is not enough. Nadal's peak is great. But adding sinner would definitely have impact .
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
No no

No no.

Sinner has taken raz to five out hitting him. He has great forehand and backhand combo and can change direction. His backhand has legit chance to be best ever. Due to sheer pace and ability to consistently hit deep.

Just putting words like "jack squat" is not enough. Nadal's peak is great. But adding sinner would definitely have impact .
Yeah, it would make RAFA’s record against top players even better there :p
 

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
People don't get it do they?

Djokovic had 10 attempts at Rafael. And every time he came into the final against an actual in prime Nadal he got his behind handed to him. In every way possible. remember 2013?

That was supposed to be another 4 setter for Rafa, Rafa uncharacteristically had a lapse of concentration and Djokovic played out of his mind to get it to 5 and have a lead.

You know what Rafa did? Hit 20+ winners or something on freakinv Clay against the 2nd greatest defender on the surface.

Nadal on RG clay is close to irl myth, legend whatever you wanna call it.



2015 Nadal was dead on arrival. That one in my eyes doesn't count.

It wasn't until Novak has had enough attempts and Nadal had dropped off his pedestal that Novak got that 2021 win.

And probably no one in history but Novak would have been able to do it. It was about understanding what can be done and that too after ages of attempts.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
And probably no one in history but Novak would have been able to do it. It was about understanding what can be done and that too after ages of attempts.

That win had way more to do with Nadal playing poorly and being injured than it did with Novak "knowing what to do"

If he truly and finally learnt what to do, he wouldn't have got beat in 4 the next year.
 

Wurm

Professional
If I wanted to be as easy as you, I could tell you that at just 23 years old Sinner boasts more ATP Finals than Nadal has won in his entire career, as well as indoor titles in general.

Sinner doing so well on hard courts over the last 18 months, against nopposition compared to who Rafa had to deal with through the best years of his career, doesn't even have the beginnings of an argument for the position that Sinner right now could seriously threaten any version of Rafa that won the FO.

We'll see what the upcoming clay court season brings, assuming he's not been banned for doping (and he should - his team is his responsibility), but right now I think there's a few players in the ATP top 10 Sinner will continue to have problems with on clay that he can swat aside with relative ease on hard courts.
 

Wurm

Professional
Really? That would be quite harsh indeed.

Murray made 4 FO semi-finals and a FO final and beat Rafa and Novak in clay court Masters finals, albeit it was the 2015 Rafa whose forehand wasn't going past the service line half the time. He did, however, repeat the trick and beat a slightly better Rafa in 2016 at the same tournament.

His 2015/16 seasons were a higher level on clay than Sinner has shown thus far.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Murray did win Rome and made it to a RG final.

Murray made 4 FO semi-finals and a FO final and beat Rafa and Novak in clay court Masters finals, albeit it was the 2015 Rafa whose forehand wasn't going past the service line half the time. He did, however, repeat the trick and beat a slightly better Rafa in 2016 at the same tournament.

His 2015/16 seasons were a higher level on clay than Sinner has shown thus far.

If you look at his whole career you are both correct, I was thinking for now age-wise. For me, there is no doubt that Sinner is considerably stronger than Murray at this stage of his career on clay.

MURRAY Clay Career Tour-Level Splits Top

Split​
M​
W​
L​
Win%​
Set%​
Game%​
TB%​
MS​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Clay
164​
110​
54​
67.1%​
64.3%​
55.0%​
68.1%​
150​
76.4%​
32.3%​
6.0%​
2.6%​
58.4%​
70.6%​
50.1%​
62.0%​
42.3%​
52.1%​
1.11​

Obviously the last years dragged him down a bit, but he played only something like 9 clay matches at ATP level in the last four years so no major impact.

SINNER Clay Career Tour-Level Splits Top

Split​
M​
W​
L​
Win%​
Set%​
Game%​
TB%​
MS​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Clay
78​
54​
24​
69.2%​
66.2%​
56.0%​
44.0%​
76​
79.8%​
32.3%​
4.5%​
2.7%​
59.7%​
70.7%​
53.3%​
63.7%​
42.2%​
52.7%​
1.16​

So stat-wise already performing better than Murray. However Sinner is improving fast and before we head into the clay season of 2023 let us look back at 2024:

SINNER Last 52 Weeks Tour-Level Splits Top

Split​
M​
W​
L​
Win%​
Set%​
Game%​
TB%​
MS​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Hard
64​
61​
3​
95.3%​
87.7%​
62.0%​
86.4%​
63​
92.5%​
29.7%​
10.3%​
2.4%​
60.6%​
79.2%​
59.4%​
71.4%​
41.6%​
55.8%​
1.45​
Clay
14​
11​
3​
78.6%​
78.9%​
60.3%​
50.0%​
13​
88.1%​
32.6%​
5.7%​
2.8%​
62.0%​
78.8%​
54.3%​
69.5%​
42.9%​
55.5%​
1.40​
Grass
10​
9​
1​
90.0%​
75.0%​
55.9%​
69.2%​
10​
92.7%​
17.4%​
12.1%​
2.0%​
64.5%​
81.4%​
57.1%​
72.8%​
36.3%​
53.5%​
1.33​

He had a higher TPW than Alcaraz or Djokovic, not to speak of Zverev or Tsitispas. Lesser opponents likely than the first two and he was unable to win the proportionate number of games, although he only lost two, not three.

Reminds me when I wrote earlier how strong his hardcourt numbers looked despite winning nothing big. The ability to win so many points of a young and improving player with almost always result in lots of titles.
 
Last edited:

Winner Sinner

Hall of Fame
Sinner doing so well on hard courts over the last 18 months, against nopposition compared to who Rafa had to deal with through the best years of his career, doesn't even have the beginnings of an argument for the position that Sinner right now could seriously threaten any version of Rafa that won the FO.

We'll see what the upcoming clay court season brings, assuming he's not been banned for doping (and he should - his team is his responsibility), but right now I think there's a few players in the ATP top 10 Sinner will continue to have problems with on clay that he can swat aside with relative ease on hard courts.
During Nadal's career, the ATP Finals were won not only by sacred monsters such as Federer and Djokovic, but also by players such as Nalbandian, Davydenko, Dimitrov, Tsitsipas, Zverev and Medvedev.
And Nadal never did it.
Stop making excuses every time!
 

mahatma

Hall of Fame
People don't get it do they?

Djokovic had 10 attempts at Rafael. And every time he came into the final against an actual in prime Nadal he got his behind handed to him. In every way possible. remember 2013?

That was supposed to be another 4 setter for Rafa, Rafa uncharacteristically had a lapse of concentration and Djokovic played out of his mind to get it to 5 and have a lead.

You know what Rafa did? Hit 20+ winners or something on freakinv Clay against the 2nd greatest defender on the surface.

Nadal on RG clay is close to irl myth, legend whatever you wanna call it.



2015 Nadal was dead on arrival. That one in my eyes doesn't count.

It wasn't until Novak has had enough attempts and Nadal had dropped off his pedestal that Novak got that 2021 win.

And probably no one in history but Novak would have been able to do it. It was about understanding what can be done and that too after ages of attempts.
One is understanding what has to be done and another is actually doing it against the god of clay. And people here are comparing Nadal on clay to Sinner. Rofl
 

Megafanoftennis100

Professional
Since when is a knock off version of Berdych who’s 0-3 and 0-8 in sets played vs Ancientdal a threat to taking titles away from Primedal?
Prime Sinner >>>> Prime Berdych by light years. If anything, Berdych is the knock-off of Sinner (and not even a good one at that).
To make a Dragon Ball style comparison, if Berdych was kid Goku, then Sinner would be Ultra Instinct Goku.
Also, when Sinner played against Nadal in those three matches you mentioned, it is undeniable that Sinner was significantly further away from his prime than Nadal was. Besides, what about prime 2008-2013 Nadal's game could possibly do meaningful damage to prime 2024-present version of Sinner?? Sinner is taller, he is more durable, he hits the ball much harder and with greater precision, he has better FH than Nadal, better BH too, better serve, better volleys, better passing shots, and is mentally stronger.
The only real advantage peak Nadal would have over peak Sinner is his running speed, but that alone would not compensate for the numerous areas in which Sinner is better than Nadal.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Prime Sinner >>>> Prime Berdych by light years.
Based on? Berdych beat all the big 4 in majors, and multiple times in the cases of Federer and Djokovic.

The way I see it, Sinner is more consistent, but Berdych could raise his level very high on his day.

The 2012 Australian Open quarter final between Nadal and Berdych is one of the best matches that I've seen.
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
Prime Sinner >>>> Prime Berdych by light years. If anything, Berdych is the knock-off of Sinner (and not even a good one at that).
To make a Dragon Ball style comparison, if Berdych was kid Goku, then Sinner would be Ultra Instinct Goku.
Also, when Sinner played against Nadal in those three matches you mentioned, it is undeniable that Sinner was significantly further away from his prime than Nadal was. Besides, what about prime 2008-2013 Nadal's game could possibly do meaningful damage to prime 2024-present version of Sinner?? Sinner is taller, he is more durable, he hits the ball much harder and with greater precision, he has better FH than Nadal, better BH too, better serve, better volleys, better passing shots, and is mentally stronger.
The only real advantage peak Nadal would have over peak Sinner is his running speed, but that alone would not compensate for the numerous areas in which Sinner is better than Nadal.
Lol
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
During Nadal's career, the ATP Finals were won not only by sacred monsters such as Federer and Djokovic, but also by players such as Nalbandian, Davydenko, Dimitrov, Tsitsipas, Zverev and Medvedev.
And Nadal never did it.
Stop making excuses every time!
Only the Nalbandian one felt really BIG, possibly because of best of 5 set finals. Tsitsipas and Medvedev winning was a surprise, because Thiem was expected to win after seemingly doing the hard work beforehand.
 

Megafanoftennis100

Professional
Maybe you only say this, because:
1. you have no idea about the awesomeness of Dragon Ball Super
2. you seriously cannot see that 2020-2021 Sinner was much further away from his prime than 2020-2021 Nadal was.
3. you did not even bother to properly compare the best matches played by prime Nadal on clay and prime Sinner on hard court
Hope that helps shed light on the matter!
 

Megafanoftennis100

Professional
Based on? Berdych beat all the big 4 in majors, and multiple times in the cases of Federer and Djokovic.

The way I see it, Sinner is more consistent, but Berdych could raise his level very high on his day.

The 2012 Australian Open quarter final between Nadal and Berdych is one of the best matches that I've seen.
2024/25 Sinner crushes 2012 Nadal at the AO
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
Maybe you only say this, because:
1. you have no idea about the awesomeness of Dragon Ball Super
2. you seriously cannot see that 2020-2021 Sinner was much further away from his prime than 2020-2021 Nadal was.
3. you did not even bother to properly compare the best matches played by prime Nadal on clay and prime Sinner on hard court
Hope that helps shed light on the matter!
1. DBS is beyond mid af.
2. That says more about The Sinner’s prime level…or the lack thereof. 2020-2021 Ancientdal was old enough to be Sinner’s father. Which makes total sense since he absolutely sonned him.
3. The Sinner’s level on HC is irrelevant since we are talking about hypothetical matches at RG…which is on clay, duh.
 
This point is crazy. Zverev hit probably the worst possible approach shot from that position: a medium pace deep cross-court BH right to Nadal's FH. Anything else (DTL, short angle, drop shot) and he wins this point and the set
That is because Zverev was afraid he would mishit if he tried any other option but the safe one. This is the psychological edge that distinguished second half Big 3 from their challengers.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
2024/25 Sinner crushes 2012 Nadal at the AO
Nope. Nadal on hardcourt in his earlier years was vulnerable to hard, flat hitters, of which Berdych is one such player, which is why Berdych beat Nadal in their first 3 hardcourt matches. Sinner hits with more topspin.
 

Megafanoftennis100

Professional
1. DBS is beyond mid af.
2. That says more about The Sinner’s prime level…or the lack thereof. 2020-2021 Ancientdal was old enough to be Sinner’s father. Which makes total sense since he absolutely sonned him.
3. The Sinner’s level on HC is irrelevant since we are talking about hypothetical matches at RG…which is on clay, duh.
1. Have you ever seen a single episode of DBS?? Just curious. Because the Future Trunks saga and Tournamnt of Power arcs were absolutely epic! I mean, how could anyone dispute that?
2. What I meant to say was that the gap between 2024/25 Sinner and 2020/21 Sinner is far greater than the gap between 2008/10 Nadal and 2020/21 Nadal. I mean, how can anyone argue against this with a straight face?
3. OK, yeah, I agree that my point about HC is irrelevant. BUT, the thing is, if a player's level of play is so astronomically high, then even the nerf he gets from switching to a different surface would not be enough to make him lose, unless he tanks the match. I mean, do you seriously believe that 2024/25 Sinner's base level (meaning, average level across all surfaces) is superior to 2008/10 Nadal's base level?
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
1. Have you ever seen a single episode of DBS?? Just curious. Because the Future Trunks saga and Tournamnt of Power arcs were absolutely epic! I mean, how could anyone dispute that?
1. I have, it’s weak sauce.
2. What I meant to say was that the gap between 2024/25 Sinner and 2020/21 Sinner is far greater than the gap between 2008/10 Nadal and 2020/21 Nadal. I mean, how can anyone argue against this with a straight face?
2. Primedal on clay is the highest level ever produced in tennis history. And people argue against it if they have brains, lol. It’s just common sense. The last full year of RAFA’s prime was 2013. So a full 7 years in between RG 13 and 20. At most the difference between The Sinner of 24/25 vs 20/21 is 4 years. Even 24 Sinner dropped a set to Drunkovic/Sickovic in the AO 24 SF.
3. OK, yeah, I agree that my point about HC is irrelevant.
Hey, you finally said something that’s not incorrect (y)
 

ebar86

Rookie
2012 Nadal vs Djokovic at AO: Djokovic wins in 5 (was even very close to wrapping up the match in 4 sets)
2024 Sinner vs Djokovic at AO: Sinner wins in 4 (was even very close to wrapping up the match in 3 sets)
Facts are facts
You can't directly compare 25 years old Djokovic to 37 years old Djokovic. ‍♂️ 2012 Djokovic was a monster.
 

ebar86

Rookie
Let me put this stat.
Nadal lost 4 matches in RG from 2005 throughout his 20+ years of career.
Sinner already lost 5 matches in RG.

Nadal's competitors in RG was Djokovic only. Federer, Soderling, Schwartzman and Thiem abit distance, but still could give a bit of fight.

The rest are all pretenders.
 

Megafanoftennis100

Professional
Evolution pattern of tennis since 2003:
2003-2023: stagnant, no progress whatsoever. A top 20 player from 2003 would beat a top 10 player from 2023 with ease. If anything, there has been a de-evolution during this period. The average groundstroke speed of top players went down by at least 10-20 mph, the players run slower, they are tactically dumber, etc.
2024-2025: significant evolution, almost to an unprecedentedly rapid degree! The field keeps getting much stronger, players keep improving! Everyone is faster, stronger and tactically wiser! Even a #100 player today would beat 2006 Federer on HC. (definitely not saying this just to hype of Sinner's competition. It's just the way it is)
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Lived through the years of Rafa's dominance on clay, we will never see his like again...*

NADAL Career Tour-Level Splits Top

Split​
M​
W​
L​
Win%​
Set%​
Game%​
TB%​
MS​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Hard
680​
525​
155​
77.2%​
72.5%​
57.5%​
58.4%​
660​
85.8%​
28.8%​
4.9%​
2.5%​
66.7%​
72.8%​
57.1%​
67.6%​
40.4%​
53.5%​
1.24​
Clay
539​
487​
52​
90.4%​
84.7%​
63.7%​
65.7%​
516​
84.2%​
42.6%​
2.9%​
2.0%​
69.6%​
70.3%​
56.7%​
66.2%​
46.6%​
56.1%​
1.38​
Grass
97​
76​
21​
78.4%​
72.2%​
56.8%​
63.8%​
96​
89.4%​
23.6%​
6.7%​
2.1%​
68.7%​
75.3%​
58.8%​
70.1%​
37.4%​
53.3%​
1.25​

The momentum of Sinneraz is pushing their numbers with every quarter higher, especially Jannik is playing at far higher level than a couple of years ago. Still he is already passing the hardcourt percentages of the Bull. Both clay and grass samples are relatively small so that strong season could better them quickly.

SINNER Career Tour-Level Splits Top

Split​
M​
W​
L​
Win%​
Set%​
Game%​
TB%​
MS​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Hard
252​
200​
52​
79.4%​
73.4%​
57.2%​
69.7%​
241​
86.7%​
27.1%​
8.2%​
2.6%​
60.2%​
75.7%​
55.2%​
67.5%​
40.1%​
53.5%​
1.24​
Clay
78​
54​
24​
69.2%​
66.2%​
56.0%​
44.0%​
76​
79.8%​
32.3%​
4.5%​
2.7%​
59.7%​
70.7%​
53.3%​
63.7%​
42.2%​
52.7%​
1.16​
Grass
30​
21​
9​
70.0%​
64.9%​
54.9%​
52.4%​
30​
88.5%​
20.7%​
9.4%​
2.9%​
60.2%​
78.2%​
57.2%​
69.8%​
37.4%​
52.7%​
1.24​

Carlos is the most balanced of the three and also rising, with 2024 statistically being his best year so far. Overall closer to Rafa, less reliance on the serve and more on the return.

ALCARAZ Career Tour-Level Splits Top

Split​
M​
W​
L​
Win%​
Set%​
Game%​
TB%​
MS​
Hld%​
Brk%​
A%​
DF%​
1stIn​
1st%​
2nd%​
SPW​
RPW​
TPW​
DR​
Hard
146​
109​
37​
74.7%​
69.9%​
56.3%​
57.6%​
143​
84.7%​
28.7%​
5.8%​
2.9%​
64.8%​
72.6%​
56.8%​
67.0%​
40.7%​
53.2%​
1.23​
Clay
93​
76​
17​
81.7%​
73.8%​
58.3%​
62.2%​
93​
80.7%​
35.8%​
3.3%​
2.7%​
66.0%​
69.4%​
54.3%​
64.3%​
43.8%​
53.7%​
1.23​
Grass
27​
24​
3​
88.9%​
75.3%​
56.8%​
73.3%​
27​
86.4%​
26.1%​
7.4%​
3.5%​
63.7%​
74.4%​
54.9%​
67.3%​
39.5%​
53.0%​
1.21​


*42% break percentage on caly :)
 

fedfan24

Hall of Fame
Not at all! Tennis has been evolving significantly since 2024, which means that even 2025 Fonseca would mop the floor with 2006 Federer on hard courts.
Agreed. Federer himself was a better player from 2016-2021 than his so called “peak”.


Question:

In 2003 you won your first title in Dubai. How much chances would the Federer of 2003 have against the Federer of today? (March, 2019)

Answer from Federer:

Not many chances I believe. The game has extremely changed. It is more dynamic, faster and has become somewhat ruthless. The players are more athletic and the material makes the game faster. I myself have become better. In fact, I had to become better because I had new opponents and new challenges. Tennis on this level doesn’t allow you stagnancy.
 

Megafanoftennis100

Professional
Agreed. Federer himself was a better player from 2016-2021 than his so called “peak”.


Question:

In 2003 you won your first title in Dubai. How much chances would the Federer of 2003 have against the Federer of today? (March, 2019)

Answer from Federer:

Not many chances I believe. The game has extremely changed. It is more dynamic, faster and has become somewhat ruthless. The players are more athletic and the material makes the game faster. I myself have become better. In fact, I had to become better because I had new opponents and new challenges. Tennis on this level doesn’t allow you stagnancy.
I genuinely disagree. Also, Federer is known to be a complete and utter idiot with 2-digit IQ, so no need to pay serious attention to his words. After all, this is the same guy who lost 24 matches where he had match points.
I specifically said that there was complete stagnation and even a de-evolution the entire time between 2003 and 2023. But then, in the magical year of 2024, tennis started to evolve once again - and very rapidly so.
Hence, 2003 Federer >>> 2019 Federer without a doubt.
 

Incognito

Legend
Prime Sinner >>>> Prime Berdych by light years. If anything, Berdych is the knock-off of Sinner (and not even a good one at that).
To make a Dragon Ball style comparison, if Berdych was kid Goku, then Sinner would be Ultra Instinct Goku.
Also, when Sinner played against Nadal in those three matches you mentioned, it is undeniable that Sinner was significantly further away from his prime than Nadal was. Besides, what about prime 2008-2013 Nadal's game could possibly do meaningful damage to prime 2024-present version of Sinner?? Sinner is taller, he is more durable, he hits the ball much harder and with greater precision, he has better FH than Nadal, better BH too, better serve, better volleys, better passing shots, and is mentally stronger.
The only real advantage peak Nadal would have over peak Sinner is his running speed, but that alone would not compensate for the numerous areas in which Sinner is better than Nadal.
Sinner can’t handle high balls.
 
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