Fabresque
Legend
He deserves to be disrespected for being a cheating doping SOB.Fixed it for you
If Jannik Sinner and Rafael Nadal were born in the same era, how many Roland Garros titles would Nadal have won?
- Thread starter Megafanoftennis100
- Start date
Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
You have no evidence whatsoever that Sinner intentionally cheated.
Dropshot777
Semi-Pro
Wurm
Professional
We have circumstantial evidence, we just don't have the hard evidence of the hand in the cookie jar.
I know which side of the fence I think looks more likely to hold the truth.
Italy’s Clostebol doping crisis across tennis, football and the Olympics
An anabolic steroid once given to East and West German athletes has resurfaced in elite Italian sport. Honest Sport investigates whether the drug is now being used similarly to testosterone creams.
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Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
matches
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
Let’s wait for Sinner to win his first RG title before we judge his level on the red clay.
Can he do it without dropping a set? Four times?
Maybe it will happen soon.?
I’ll hold my breath.
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Cabeza del Demonio
Hall of Fame
14. Fourteen.
Federer couldn't touch him. Thiem couldn't touch him. Djokovic did about as well as you could possibly do and he went 2-8. Do yourself a favor and rewatch that 2012 final. Djokovic was playing some of the best tennis anyone's ever played, ever, and still got beaten in 4.
Everybody gangsta till they meet Rafa on Chatrier. Sinner would likely face the same fate as many a great champion did over the years.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
How could Sinner possibly beat Nadal over best of 5 sets on clay at the French Open? Sinner isn't going to out-rally Nadal, isn't going to overpower him on that surface (and Sinner hits with some topspin anyway). Nadal will just rally hard for hour after hour, use lots of topspin, hit some exasperating winners, and wait for Sinner's patience to go as Sinner's errors increase.
Nadal's longest match at the French Open in terms of match-time was in the video below, against Mathieu in 2006. Nadal won 5-7, 6-4, 6-4, 6-4, in 4 hours and 53 minutes. It didn't matter that Mathieu played so brilliantly on the day, i.e. he still lost and was out-lasted.
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mtommer
Hall of Fame
I believe there would be some great matches. Nadal's instinctual movement on clay is what's always set him apart in my mind. It's fractions of seconds better than anyone else's and that made all the difference in his career. That's tough to overcome. I think Federer is a great example of how hard it was to beat was to beat Nadal as Federer was an exceptional anticipator (and mover as a result). It's not that Sinner wouldn't transition well to clay but rather Nadal's play would make it hard to be the greater player. But, it has been done by less accomplished players before and anyone knows that innpro tennis, all players across the net are a threat because they're all good enough to beat each other (not necessarily on a consistent level but for any given match).
SeeItHitIt
Professional
Is this hypothetical before or after the PED era?
Its always interesting when people compare players who haven't won something (to date no Roland Garros' for Sinner) vs someone who has achieved at all time great level (greatest Roland Garros Player of all time). To do so is to base the former purely on potential vs someone who has had the actual great achievement.
Now, yes Sinner has a potential to win a number of French Opens. But lets not give him any credit for this until he has done so, yes? I will say he is better than Nadal on clay when Sinner has won 15 Roland Garros. 13, 12 Roland Garros - sorry he doesn't make the grade. So at the bare minimum we won't know if Sinner is a better Roland Garros player than Nadal for a least 15 more years.
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
The real interesting question would have been to see the best Kuerten at Roland Garros against the first Nadal.
Unfortunately the Brazilian due to physical problems declined just when the Majorcan was starting to emerge.
Kuerten on clay had the weapons to be able to annoy Nadal.
Unfortunately the Brazilian due to physical problems declined just when the Majorcan was starting to emerge.
Kuerten on clay had the weapons to be able to annoy Nadal.
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
Given that, as others have said, the question is currently out of place, considering that Sinner still has to prove that he can win a Roland Garros against his contemporaries.
At the same time, I always find this form of self-defense hilarious, where you start to digress and take the discussion off track, having nothing to do with the specific question, like Sinner must first win 15 Roland Garros.
The fact that Nadal won 14 Roland Garros does not mean that in each of those individual editions he was unbeatable, not only against his contemporaries, but also against past and future players.
Having said that, I think that Sinner does not have the weapons to beat Nadal on that surface in the best of 5 sets, but he has the mentality to not go onto the court with the classic attitude of the sacrificial victim, an attitude that has characterized many of Nadal's opponents, who simply started out already beaten right from the changing room tunnel, and among these I also include Federer.
Sinner, on the other hand, has a much more Djokovic-style mentality, that is, respect for everyone but fear of no one thanks to his unconditional confidence in his own abilities.
At the same time, I always find this form of self-defense hilarious, where you start to digress and take the discussion off track, having nothing to do with the specific question, like Sinner must first win 15 Roland Garros.
The fact that Nadal won 14 Roland Garros does not mean that in each of those individual editions he was unbeatable, not only against his contemporaries, but also against past and future players.
Having said that, I think that Sinner does not have the weapons to beat Nadal on that surface in the best of 5 sets, but he has the mentality to not go onto the court with the classic attitude of the sacrificial victim, an attitude that has characterized many of Nadal's opponents, who simply started out already beaten right from the changing room tunnel, and among these I also include Federer.
Sinner, on the other hand, has a much more Djokovic-style mentality, that is, respect for everyone but fear of no one thanks to his unconditional confidence in his own abilities.
Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
Matches!
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Nadal is a combined 14-2 against Federer and Djokovic at the French Open.
Sets lost by year in Rafael Nadal's French Open matches, by year and match:
2003: DNP
2004: DNP
2005: 0,0,0,1,0,1,1 (3 sets lost, 1 to Grosjean, 1 to Federer, 1 to Puerta)
2006: 0,0,1,1,0,0,1 (3 sets lost, 1 to Mathieu, 1 to Hewitt, 1 to Federer)
2007: 0,0,0,0,0,0,1 (1 set lost, 1 to Federer)
2008: 0,0,0,0,0,0,0 (0 sets lost)
2009: 0,0,0,3 (3 sets lost, 3 to Soderling)
2010: 0,0,0,0,0,0,0 (0 sets lost)
2011: 2,0,0,0,0,0,1 (3 sets lost, 2 to Isner, 1 to Federer)
2012: 0,0,0,0,0,0,1 (1 set lost, 1 to Djokovic)
2013: 1,1,0,0,0,2,0 (4 sets lost, 1 to Brands, 1 to Klizan, 2 to Djokovic)
2014: 0,0,0,0,1,0,1 (2 sets lost, 1 to Ferrer, 1 to Djokovic)
2015: 0,0,0,1,3 (4 sets lost, 1 to Sock, 3 to Djokovic)
2016: 0,0,w/o (0 sets lost)
2017: 0,0,0,0,0,0,0 (0 sets lost)
2018: 0,0,0,0,1,0,0 (1 set lost, 1 to Schwartzman)
2019: 0,0,1,0,0,0,1 (2 sets lost, 1 to Goffin, 1 to Thiem)
2020: 0,0,0,0,0,0,0 (0 sets lost)
2021: 0,0,0,0,1,3 (4 sets lost, 1 to Schwartzman, 3 to Djokovic)
2022: 0,0,0,2,1,0,0 (3 sets lost, 2 to Auger-Aliassime, 1 to Djokovic)
2023: DNP
2024: 3 (3 sets lost, 3 to Zverev)
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
And that should prove that he was unbeatable for anyone in past, present and future history?
I know that these are unrealistic comparisons due to the different context, but do you think that the best Borg at Roland Garros was so much less devastating than Nadal?
And Borg may not have had two rivals at the level of Federer and Djokovic in that period, but on the surface in question, especially thinking of Nastase, Vilas and Panatta, there were many more specialists than those that Nadal had to face during his reign.
Considering that Federer and Djokovic were not real specialists, like a Lendl, who was the greatest specialist rival on the surface that he had to face during his reign?
Coria?
Ferrer?
Thiem?
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Kuerten needed to get into a groove first. He was 1 point away at the 2001 French Open from losing in straight sets to qualifier Michael Russell, a match point saved with a 26-stroke rally.
vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
... before 2001 or after 2024 ?
Mustard
Bionic Poster
In the same tech era, certainly. He won the title 4 times without losing a set (2008, 2010, 2017, 2020), and other years he was just as dominant in losing 1 set (e.g. 2007, 2012). In fact, my top 4 are 2008, 2007, 2012 and 2017. I think 2008 was the very best French Open Nadal, but 2017 Nadal in some ways was the best because of his dominant serving that he didn't repeat at other French Opens.
TennisGrandpA
Legend
Sinner was not in his prime back then and not a great mover like he’s now.
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
I would like to ask those who take those results into consideration to build who knows what thesis on them, which of those versions between the old Nadal 2020-2021 and the young Sinner 2020-2021 do they think is further away in level from their peak version, which obviously for Nadal can be either 2008 or 2010, while Sinner at the moment is that of 2024 (or early 2025).
No, because in my opinion some are also capable of saying that that old Nadal was further away in level from his peak version than that young Sinner was.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Nadal's 2010 French Open wasn't as good as his 2007 or 2012 in terms of form, despite no sets lost in 2010.
TheGoldenEra1990’s
Hall of Fame
If Nadal was playing today he would have more than 14. Probably 20 RG titles cause no one playing today is as good as Djoker was on clay. Essentially the field would even be more open for Nadal and he would get 2 statues
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
I didn't know that "today" covers a period of over 14 years.
Or are you already aware that the evolution of Alcaraz or Sinner cannot lead them to reach a level on clay comparable to that of Djokovic prime, if not even higher (thinking of Alcaraz).
Or are you even already aware of the development that emerging players like Fonseca will have, or future players who have yet to emerge?
Tell me where you keep your crystal ball.
Nadal’s game is taylor-made for clay. I don’t think it will make much difference.
Can’t judge too much on the AO final. Zverev is a good player but he’s not exactly at the level of prime Federer or Djokovic both of whom struggled with Nadal at RG.
Of course current players are expected to learn from players of the past so I do expect Sinner to reach higher levels but at Sinner’s current level, I don’t think Nadal’s dominance will be affected.
Can’t judge too much on the AO final. Zverev is a good player but he’s not exactly at the level of prime Federer or Djokovic both of whom struggled with Nadal at RG.
Of course current players are expected to learn from players of the past so I do expect Sinner to reach higher levels but at Sinner’s current level, I don’t think Nadal’s dominance will be affected.
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The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Raz is 0-2 vs Ancientovic on Chatrier, safe to say he isn’t even on Primeovic’s level forget Prime or especially Peakdal. And he’s already showing signs of regression at such an early age. His elbow injuries as a result of his violent hitting have made him adjust how he hits his FH. He’s having to be more conservative now which is affecting his top gear which he’d need to take out the best to ever do it on this surface.
gamelovergold
Hall of Fame
Sinner is better than Novak on grass.
Is this some kind of joke.
Novak has reached 1o finals in WIM and won 7 of them .
Sinner still has to reach 1 final
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
Yes but as usual I think that no one claims that Alcaraz or whoever can reach the levels of Nadal prime or peak on clay, probably not even those of Djokovic prime, but in this case it is still premature to exclude it.
Sometimes the parable of a player does not necessarily have to have a coherent line, just think of Djokovic himself and his escalation from 2006 to 2008, to then have a regression in the following two years.
To affirm that a Nadal if he had grown up in this era would have won even more than the 14 Roland Garros actually won in his own, is a consideration based on nothing, since no one can predict the short-medium term future, let alone the long term.
Maybe in 5 years we will witness the birth of the greatest generation of clay specialists in history, who can exclude it?
It's a different story to say that if Nadal 2005-10 had grown in this period in the first half of the 20s, maybe he would have dominated even more on clay than he did in that period. Whether you agree with it or not, at least we have some evidence.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
The reason why I don’t believe it’s premature in the case of Carl is that he is very much like RAFA in that they’re both early bloomers. I don’t expect him to get much better than he already is on clay. He just lacks the patience, shot tolerance, and focus to be truly dominant on this surface. For example, he’s 1-1 at Rome…and he’s never even won a match at MC
Yeah, a lot of that is due to injuries…but that just adds fuel to the fire when I bring up his elbow injuries that seem to flare up the more he plays on clay. The rallies are longer and it’s harder to hit through opponents than it is on HC or especially grass.And believing RAFA could have won more than 14 RG titles in this current era isn’t based on nothing. When you look at the top players outside of Sincaraz, they all have major holes in their games. For example Midvedev and Zedrot have FHs that just aren’t good enough period, but especially on clay. Zedrot’s FH was the reason why he lost last year’s F. If anything, the overall level on clay has gone down the past half decade or so.
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
But let's go back to what was said before, winning more than 14 Roland Garros means imposing your reign on multiple generations, we at the moment of this current era know the value of the generation of Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, etc., we can already get an idea of that of Sinner, Alcaraz, Rune, but we cannot know among those born in the second half of the 2000s, or even in the first half of the 2010s, who will come out.The reason why I don’t believe it’s premature in the case of Carl is that he is very much like RAFA in that they’re both early bloomers. I don’t expect him to get much better than he already is on clay. He just lacks the patience, shot tolerance, and focus to be truly dominant on this surface. For example, he’s 1-1 at Rome…and he’s never even won a match at MC
And believing RAFA could have won more than 14 RG titles in this current era isn’t based on nothing. When you look at the top players outside of Sincaraz, they all have major holes in their games. For example Midvedev and Zedrot have FHs that just aren’t good enough period, but especially on clay. Zedrot’s FH was the reason why he lost last year’s F. If anything, the overall level on clay has gone down the past half decade or so.
In his reign at Roland Garros, Nadal first defeated players from generations preceding his own, then those of his own generation, then crossed that of those born in the 90s, even coming close to that of those born in the early 2000s. If he had grown up in this era, he would have had to face first that of Medvedev etc., then that of Sinneraz, but then also that of those born between the second half of the 2000s and the first half of the 2010s, where as already said we do not know what will come out.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Well, the thread is asking about The Sinner specifically and as of right now he hasn’t shown anything in 2020-2024 that has me convinced he’d be a threat to take titles from RAFA (he hasn’t even reached the F of a premier CC event). We’ll see what he looks like when he comes back from his ban. But as you’ve said, RAFA defeated players from before his era, in his era, and three generations of players past his own (Lost Gen, Next Gen, and now Diamond Gen). I’d say that’s more than enough to give an educated speculation on how he’d do going forward. The players that have come after his own generation have just flat out been worse on clay. And for even greater historical precedence, it took 30 years after Borg before RAFA showed up to exceed his level play on the surface. I think it’s going to take a very long time (if it ever happens) for a player to show up with that kind of level of play.
TheGoldenEra1990’s
Hall of Fame
Alcaraz can’t even beat grandpa Nole on clay and sinner can’t beat alcaraz. So Nadal would feast even easier today than he did in his era. The rest of the players haven’t done anything in slams so it’s pointless to gauge them. I doubt they will be that good since the tour doesn’t exactly create many great players anymore like they used to
Mustard
Bionic Poster
As is the whole way that Nadal approaches tennis, i.e. stay in the present, play each point as it comes, down to earth routines before every point. Clay is a surface that not only rewards patient point construction over risk taking, but is also a surface where you have to keep building up momentum all the time and is the hardest surface to just grab momentum and run with it. That fits in with Nadal's whole outlook and routines to a tee.
On grass, a player who just goes with instinct and aggression will be more rewarded, and it's the easiest surface to grab momentum and ride with it. That's why Alcaraz has done well at Wimbledon.
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Dropshot777
Semi-Pro
I’m saying he will be. Sorry about my wording.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Nadal would win most of the biggest matches.
Aabye5
Talk Tennis Guru
I am not even convinced of that, but it's laughable that we are talking about him challenging Rafa at RG.
The future is always open, but as of today, Nadal would turn him into mincemeat on clay.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Really? Nadal was 18-5 in matches in the majors against Federer and Djokovic from 2005-2014, and 21-11 by the end. This includes 2-1 vs. Djokovic at the US Open, and 3-1 vs. Federer at the Australian Open.
What is Sinner compared to Federer and Djokovic?
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Aabye5
Talk Tennis Guru
I know, and while Sinner has improved, peak Rafa on clay is literally the gold standard. There is Borg.........and then others.
DSH
Bionic Poster
You're running short on the number, buddy
Nadal would have won 17 RG titles if you replace Sinner with Djokovic.
Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
matches
