If Murray faces Nadal at Wimbledon...

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pds999 said:
I just look at the form. Murray really has none. Lost pretty tamely in IW, did nothing the whole clay season and did ok in Miami but didn't play anyone. You have to go back to Jan for his last really decent set of performances?
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That's funny, I could have sworn he played six guys to win Miami, but whatever mate, if he's winning Masters Series whilst in poor form then I'll take that.

Like I said, you're free to think Murray would have no chance against Rafa - I'm sure plenty would disagree.
 
batz said:
That's funny, I could have sworn he played six guys to win Miami, but whatever mate, if he's winning Masters Series whilst in poor form then I'll take that.

Like I said, you're free to think Murray would have no chance against Rafa - I'm sure plenty would disagree.
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No, you misunderstand me. I didn't say "no chance", I simply said that on form Rafa is a fairly clear favourite. Difficult to argue with really? Plus their H2H on grass is very lop-sided as well which is always a factor. Murray can beat anyone on his day but over 5 sets on grass I would have to favour Rafa, assuming they meet in the latter stages when both are dialled in.
 
pds999 said:
No, you misunderstand me. I didn't say "no chance", I simply said that on form Rafa is a fairly clear favourite. Difficult to argue with really? Plus their H2H on grass is very lop-sided as well which is always a factor. Murray can beat anyone on his day but over 5 sets on grass I would have to favour Rafa, assuming they meet in the latter stages when both are dialled in.
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screw the h2h..murray mentally has changed since 2011 its so clear that was what was hurting him a lot before..and he is a better player than back then..he'd be all over nadal on grass now.
 
I think quite a few here are under-estimating murray's chances vs rafa at wimbledon.

If murray plays anything like last year at Wimbledon or Olympics, rafa will find it very very difficult.
 
pds999 said:
No, you misunderstand me. I didn't say "no chance", I simply said that on form Rafa is a fairly clear favourite. Difficult to argue with really? Plus their H2H on grass is very lop-sided as well which is always a factor. Murray can beat anyone on his day but over 5 sets on grass I would have to favour Rafa, assuming they meet in the latter stages when both are dialled in.
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Then we are in violent agreement - I've stated twice that Rafa would be favourite if they meet at SW19.

Being honest mate - my biggest single wish for Murray's SW 19 draw is that Rafa is not in his half. I've said on here on several occasions that beating Rafa @ wimbledon is one of Murray's big remaining hurdles of his career.
 
pds999 said:
I genuinely don't understand how anyone can make Murray favourite. He has had ONE good Wimbledon (which he didn't even win) whereas Rafa has won everything in sight so far this year, including Indian Wells. I wouldn't expect the grass at Wimbledon to be playing at all quick this year either (especially if Queens is anything to go by). It would be competitive but Nadal does everything Murray does that bit better, possibly bar the serve - and Murray's relatively weak second serve negates that anyway.

.
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so rafa returns better than murray and has a better BH, especially the slice ?

LOL !!!!!
 
Murraa should only pray he doesnt meet rafa.. Rafa will demolish him...he won that fluke slam *uso12 in the absence of nadal , otherwise it would have been routine nadal vs djoker final.. he is 0-3 against nadal on wimby no ? all that lendl thing is only hype..he has not improved one bit Dont quote me :)
 
abmk said:
so rafa returns better than murray and has a better BH, especially the slice ?

LOL !!!!!
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Return fairly similar. Slice though? Nadal's all day long. It's a shot honed on a clay court. Were you joking with that comment?
 
For those thinking Murray will beat Nadal... Well not on his performance vs Tsonga today. Very disjointed.
 
pds999 said:
Return fairly similar. Slice though? Nadal's all day long. It's a shot honed on a clay court. Were you joking with that comment?
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You've obviously not watched either. Murray has the better slice if you watched them across ALL surfaces. I'll say they both have good backhands. But what Nadal has is better movement and his forehand which is a far bigger weapon than anything Andy has in his arsenal.
 
pds999 said:
Return fairly similar. Slice though? Nadal's all day long. It's a shot honed on a clay court. Were you joking with that comment?
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Nadal's slice is decent, but Murray's is decidedly better, as is his return game. They are not similar.
 
batz said:
That's funny, I could have sworn he played six guys to win Miami, but whatever mate, if he's winning Masters Series whilst in poor form then I'll take that.

Like I said, you're free to think Murray would have no chance against Rafa - I'm sure plenty would disagree.
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To be honest though the Miami final was a crapfest. Murray fail to consolidating breaks of serve 3 times in a row and couldn't serve it out.
 
pds999 said:
For those thinking Murray will beat Nadal... Well not on his performance vs Tsonga today. Very disjointed.
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And still he won the match 6-2 the third set...


And these kind of tournaments means nothing.. Murray last year lost in R2 vs mahut in queens, but in wimbledon he was amazing...
 
I still believe Murrays improvement in results last year had more to do with Nadal's absence than Lendl's presence on that basis I back Nadal in 3 or 4 sets.
 
Sid_Vicious said:
I would love to see Djokovic take on Murray at Wimbledon. A lot of people on here think Djokovic is a scrub on grass courts.
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Yes they do. I am not one of them however, and I am of the belief that Djokovic would beat Murray if they played at Wimbledon.
 
abmk said:
I think quite a few here are under-estimating murray's chances vs rafa at wimbledon.

If murray plays anything like last year at Wimbledon or Olympics, rafa will find it very very difficult.
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Not if Nadal is also playing at his best or close to his best.
 
Nadal's slice misses less and he's mastered the art of putting it in one or two very specific positions on the court to allow himself to reset a rally. Murray can hit the ball to more places with his slice, and shows more regular confidence to hit a biting slice, he also hits better approaches with his slice and it's a more integral part of his point construction. Little doubt that, overall, Murray's slice is a better shot than 'Hafa's'.
 
Steve0904 said:
Yes they do. I am not one of them however, and I am of the belief that Djokovic would beat Murray if they played at Wimbledon.
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Same here, Steve. I thought Djokovic's form on grass in 2011 was excellent and if he plays like that again, there is no way I would consider Murray the favorite over him should they play a match at Wimbledon.
 
Steve0904 said:
So what do we do if both of them are playing well? Replace "very very difficult" with just "difficult?" ;)
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LOL, well then it is a tough call. Hard to know where Murray's form is currently since we have not seen him around for a while. I have not watched any of his Queen's matches and even if I did, not sure it would tell us much about W.
 
Sid_Vicious said:
Same here, Steve. I thought Djokovic's form on grass in 2011 was excellent and if he plays like that again, there is no way I would consider Murray the favorite over him should they play a match at Wimbledon.
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What do you think of his (Djokovic's) chances against Nadal? I'm interested in what you have to say since I've seen all manner of different opinions. I think he's the slight favourite against Nadal on grass, but I've heard the whole mental aspect of his defeat at RG perhaps hindering his chances. A fair opinion, but one I don't really agree with.

I would also be fascinated at the prospect of another Federer-Djokovic match. Don't get me wrong here, winning Wimbledon will not be easy for Djokovic and he won't have it easy against Nadal or Murray, but I honestly think if Federer plays well against Djokovic at Wimbledon, he is still probably Djokovic's toughest out roof or not.
 
Nadal and Djokovic play on grass Nadal will win, and more easily than he did at the French. Probably similar to their first few grass matches. Only Djokovic in his best year ever, and with the mental age of beating Nadal many times in a row including on clay, could win against Nadal on grass probably. Nadal is simply a much better grass court player. Djokovic is way better on clay than grass, there probably is as big or bigger a gap between his clay and grass abilities than Nadal's, considering it is Nadal's second best surface by far.
 
cc0509 said:
I agree. I think Murray is just as good a returner as Djokovic is if not better.
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Eh. I don't know. Until I see Murray zone on a guy's serve and consistently return it within inches of the baseline, I'd give Djokovic a fair edge in the return department. Murray seems to be more consistent, but not as much of a go for broke style as Djokovic, but Djokovic's high end is REALLY high. Higher than Murray's IMO.
 
Another problem for Nole against Rafa is that Rafa has a much greater track record at Wimbledon and has proved himself to be the more natural operator on the surface. Even assuming Nole will feel no ill effects of his recent loss, or that he may even be further buoyed by it, he would have to overcome someone who has historically been the superior player on grass. Five finals vs one is a fairly big deal. Nole could have good chances especially if he won't be affected mentally as I fear but he's only demonstrated the required excellence needed to truly excel on grass once in his career, and that was at 2011 Wimbledon. Can he do it again? Maybe, but I'd rather bank on the consistent and sustained excellence that Nadal has shown on the surface more or less year in, year out.
 
Steve0904 said:
What do you think of his (Djokovic's) chances against Nadal? I'm interested in what you have to say since I've seen all manner of different opinions. I think he's the slight favourite against Nadal on grass, but I've heard the whole mental aspect of his defeat at RG perhaps hindering his chances. A fair opinion, but one I don't really agree with.

I would also be fascinated at the prospect of another Federer-Djokovic match. Don't get me wrong here, winning Wimbledon will not be easy for Djokovic and he won't have it easy against Nadal or Murray, but I honestly think if Federer plays well against Djokovic at Wimbledon, he is still probably Djokovic's toughest out roof or not.
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If Nadal and Djokovic meet at W the reason I think Nadal may win has nothing to do with the mental aspect because of the RG result. I think Nadal has a slight edge over Djokovic at W because Nadal is the better grass player imo. However, if they do meet, it should be a tight contest.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
Another problem for Nole against Rafa is that Rafa has a much greater track record at Wimbledon and has proved himself to be the more natural operator on the surface. Even assuming Nole will feel no ill effects of his recent loss, or that he may even be further buoyed by it, he would have to overcome someone who has historically been the superior player on grass. Five finals vs one is a fairly big deal. Nole could have good chances especially if he won't be affected mentally as I fear but he's only demonstrated the required excellence needed to truly excel on grass once in his career, and that was at 2011 Wimbledon. Can he do it again? Maybe, but I'd rather bank on the consistent and sustained excellence that Nadal has shown on the surface more or less year in, year out.
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By the same token, you could say Djokovic would have 2 finals at Wimbledon, and perhaps 2 titles if he hadn't met Federer last year who played a great SF and F. Perhaps if the roof was open Djokovic would've won, but we'll never know. All I'm saying is it took a LOT to take Djokovic out last year. He's not the scrub that some like to pretend he is on grass.
 
Steve0904 said:
What do you think of his (Djokovic's) chances against Nadal? I'm interested in what you have to say since I've seen all manner of different opinions. I think he's the slight favourite against Nadal on grass, but I've heard the whole mental aspect of his defeat at RG perhaps hindering his chances. A fair opinion, but one I don't really agree with.

I would also be fascinated at the prospect of another Federer-Djokovic match. Don't get me wrong here, winning Wimbledon will not be easy for Djokovic and he won't have it easy against Nadal or Murray, but I honestly think if Federer plays well against Djokovic at Wimbledon, he is still probably Djokovic's toughest out roof or not.
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My gut feeling is the same as yours. I think Djokovic would be a slight favorite as well. We all saw how much Djokovic struggles against the heaviness of Nadal's shots on clay. In the 5th set, Djokovic could barely make clean contact with the ball once Nadal started going for his shots. I think the lower bounce on grass will work to his advantage. Nadal has never displayed the level of dominance he does on grass as he does on clay. Therefore, I don't think the mental aspect will play a huge part. Nadal is a much more natural clay court player, but Djokovic has a way of controlling baseline rallies that can even the playing field.

I agree that Federer is probably the toughest opponent for Djokovic, but how about a potential Federer vs Nadal match? Nadal will probably be ranked 5th at Wimbledon. Who do you think will win that encounter?
 
Sid_Vicious said:
My gut feeling is the same as yours. I think Djokovic would be a slight favorite as well. We all saw how much Djokovic struggles against the heaviness of Nadal's shots on clay. In the 5th set, Djokovic could barely make clean contact with the ball once Nadal started going for his shots. I think the lower bounce on grass will work to his advantage. Nadal has never displayed the level of dominance he does on grass as he does on clay. Therefore, I don't think the mental aspect will play a huge part.

I agree that Federer is probably the toughest opponent for Djokovic, but how about a potential Federer vs Nadal match? Nadal will probably be ranked 5th at Wimbledon. Who do you think will win that encounter?
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Oh dear, please no! In their current forms Nadal will thrash Federer at W imo unless Federer is able to up his play about 5 levels.
 
Sid_Vicious said:
My gut feeling is the same as yours. I think Djokovic would be a slight favorite as well. We all saw how much Djokovic struggles against the heaviness of Nadal's shots on clay. In the 5th set, Djokovic could barely make clean contact with the ball once Nadal started going for his shots. I think the lower bounce on grass will work to his advantage. Nadal has never displayed the level of dominance he does on grass as he does on clay. Therefore, I don't think the mental aspect will play a huge part.

I agree that Federer is probably the toughest opponent for Djokovic, but how about a potential Federer vs Nadal match? Nadal will probably be ranked 5th at Wimbledon. Who do you think will win that encounter?
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Unfortunately from my POV I believe that Nadal would beat Federer at Wimbledon if they both played well (just a general assumption to make the potential match easier to handicap). It's just hard to believe otherwise these days. Although I will say this, Federer would have a fair shot, might even be favoured slightly if it started to rain and subsequently the roof was closed.
 
Steve0904 said:
By the same token, you could say Djokovic would have 2 finals at Wimbledon, and perhaps 2 titles if he hadn't met Federer last year who played a great SF and F. Perhaps if the roof was open Djokovic would've won, but we'll never know. All I'm saying is it took a LOT to take Djokovic out last year. He's not the scrub that some like to pretend he is on grass.
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He's definitely no scrub, however he is an amazing player who gets by on grass not by being a natural grass courter, but by just being.. an amazing player. Lendl was similar in that he got some great results at Wimbledon but it was the surface that suited his game the least. Djokovic is in the presence of a couple of truly legendary grass courters so it's a stiff ride despite his obvious ability even on the green stuff. It definitely did take a huge effort for Roger to take out Novak last year in the semis, though I'd rather leave discussions about the roof out of it. Who knows what would have happened but given what Nole did to Fed at the WTFinals it's kind of a wash to really take it into consideration if that makes sense.

The thing with Fed last year is he simply wanted it more than Nole AND Murray in the end. I posted a vid earlier that showed a shanked fh return winner from Roger with not even a hint of apology -- wicked.

So yes Nole, great player, has his chances, but when I objectively look at what Nadal, Federer and Murray bring to the table, Nadal's and Federer's records on the surface, and Murray's recent superb results on grass, I am left with the impression that Nole will need to find an extra wrinkle in his game to get the job done. So, what could this be? Well maybe take more advantage of the space he opens up with his DTL backhands to venture into the net more and finish off the point. I'm not sure, and maybe Nole will just rip the competition to shreds at Wimbledon. Murray has the advantage of recent supreme grass form and Federer and Nadal have it more in a historical context. I suppose I need Djokovic to prove to me that 2011 wasn't some sort of anomaly.

Also, it's all right saying Nole could have had 2 finals at Wimbledon had Fed not been in the way, but a 6 time champion (at the time) was in the way and the facts remain that he's only made it to 1, the point being that it truly takes a special effort to breakthrough the grass-court elite in this era. Given what I've said, if Nole wins Wimbledon i'll be deeply impressed and my whole estimation of him as a player on the surface will rise drastically, and I'll be the first to congratulate yourself and others on having the foresight that I lacked.
 
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I think this will happen if these match-ups occur at Wimbledon this year:

Murray vs Nadal - Murray wins
Murray vs Djokovic - Murray wins
Murray vs Federer - Murray wins

Nadal vs Djokovic - Nadal wins
Nadal vs Federer - Nadal wins

Djokovic vs Federer - Djokovic wins

Only Juan Martin can prevent Andy from taking home the title :D
 
Incognito said:
I think this will happen if these match-ups occur at Wimbledon this year:

Murray vs Nadal - Murray wins
Murray vs Djokovic - Murray wins
Murray vs Federer - Murray wins

Nadal vs Djokovic - Nadal wins
Nadal vs Federer - Nadal wins

Djokovic vs Federer - Djokovic wins

Only Juan Martin can prevent Andy from taking home the title :D
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OH RLY?!

:) x 5
 
Steve0904 said:
Eh. I don't know. Until I see Murray zone on a guy's serve and consistently return it within inches of the baseline, I'd give Djokovic a fair edge in the return department. Murray seems to be more consistent, but not as much of a go for broke style as Djokovic, but Djokovic's high end is REALLY high. Higher than Murray's IMO.
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So you value a higher top end compared to consistant good returning? Murray is less likely to hit outright winners from returns but he gets alot of balls into play. He doesn't just put them into play either. I guess my recent perception of Murray these days is just that he hits alot of consistantly good returns. Novak is flashier though.
 
At the business end of a tournament where you might have to beat all time greats to win a Major, I'd take the higher top end, absolutely no question.
 
Incognito said:
I think this will happen if these match-ups occur at Wimbledon this year:

Murray vs Nadal - Murray wins
Murray vs Djokovic - Murray wins
Murray vs Federer - Murray wins

Nadal vs Djokovic - Nadal wins
Nadal vs Federer - Nadal wins

Djokovic vs Federer - Djokovic wins
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I'm going with:

Murray vs Nadal - Murray wins
Murray vs Djokovic - Murray wins
Murray vs Federer - Murray wins (unless Federer plays like last year - big if)

Nadal vs Djokovic - Djokovic wins
Nadal vs Federer - Nadal wins

Djokovic vs Federer - Federer wins

The really important thing about the draw is where Tsonga and Berdych end up or whether Nadal has a tough opponent in the early rounds.

Federer needs to avoid Nadal, Berdych and Tsonga and there is only 1/4 chance of that happening (assuming top 8 reaches the QF).

Murray can beat anyone in my opinion, but would preferably avoid Berdych and Nadal.

Nadal will want to avoid Murray and Djokovic and a dangerous hard-hitter in the early rounds.

Djokovic needs to avoid Federer and Murray.
 
Frankly I think both Djokovic and Murray could and should beat Nadal at this Wimbledon should they beat. If friggin Rosol can do it, I am not doubting top tier talent.
 
Daddy is home...... :twisted:
Seems like a lot happened in this one week absence. :)

Back on the topic, I am one of those who attribute Murray's achievements in 2012 to Nadal's absence. Murray was such a mental midget against Nadal. That said, now since the monkey is off Murray's back, he will beat Nadal in 4 sets.
 
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pds999 said:
It is absurd how people are elevating Murray suddenly. He isn't winning Wimbledon this year.
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Murray can't consecutively defeat 2 of the Big 3 in a 'Best of 5' tourney. But, if he has to face only one, Wimby 2013 can become 'The conquered fortress' for him.
 
FreeBird said:
Murray can't consecutively defeat 2 of the Big 3 in a 'Best of 5' tourney. But, if he has to face only one, Wimby 2013 can become 'The conquered fortress' for him.
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For me he is third favourite at best, maybe fourth. Mentally still goes walkabout far too much. He cant do that against Nadal or Djokovic.
 
pds999 said:
For me he is third favourite at best, maybe fourth. Mentally still goes walkabout far too much. He cant do that against Nadal or Djokovic.
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He finds it difficult to cope with Nadal and Djokovic. Nadal v/s Murray would be the most fascinating match up. And if QF, priceless. :twisted:
 
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