If Nadal reverses Djokovic losses, he can still be GOAT

O

octogon

Hall of Fame
Nadal still has the superior h2h, but the sustained period of domination Djokovic had over him in big matches for the last year (till Monte Carlo 2012) has clearly been a big blow to Nadal's legacy.

Yet...it could all be a blessing in disguise, if Nadal manages to do what other GOAT canidates (namely Borg and Federer) did not, and find a way to consistently beat a guy who neutralised their game, on the biggest stage. Borg could not overcome McEnroe and quit (arguably to secure his legacy). Federer never quit, but he was unable to beat Nadal in slams.

Nadal seems a different animal from either Borg or Federer. Unlike Borg, there's no "quit" in him. And while Nadal is capable of having a mental block against his nemesis in Djokovic, he truly seems more likely to overcome it, than Federer was against Nadal.

After early slam wins, Borg and Fedrerer were never able to defeat their main rivals at slams again. Nadal seems perfectly capable of overcoming that jinx. If he does, I think it arguably strengthens his case for greatness, especially since Djokovic is clearly an all-time great player (maybe not GOAT canidate yet, but certainly in a tier with the likes of McEnroe).
 
octogon said:
Nadal still has the superior h2h, but the sustained period of domination Djokovic had over him in big matches for the last year (till Monte Carlo 2012) has clearly been a big blow to Nadal's legacy.

Yet...it could all be a blessing in disguise, if Nadal manages to do what other GOAT canidates (namely Borg and Federer) did not, and find a way to consistently beat a guy who neutralised their game, on the biggest stage. Borg could not overcome McEnroe and quit (arguably to secure his legacy). Federer never quit, but he was unable to beat Nadal in slams.

Nadal seems a different animal from either Borg or Federer. Unlike Borg, there's no "quit" in him. And while Nadal is capable of having a mental block against his nemesis in Djokovic, he truly seems more likely to overcome it, than Federer was against Nadal.

After early slam wins, Borg and Fedrerer were never able to defeat their main rivals at slams again. Nadal seems perfectly capable of overcoming that jinx. If he does, I think it arguably strengthens his case for greatness, especially since Djokovic is clearly an all-time great player (maybe not GOAT canidate yet, but certainly in a tier with the likes of McEnroe).
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Don't think I would put Djokovic in the same tier as McEnroe yet (though he could get there), but I agree that Rafa can help his own cause by not having a deficient h2h against his rivals.

Rafa is the only one (up to this point) to have a positive h2h against the other three guys in the top 4 (3-0). All the other guys have a negative record (1-2) record against the other three:

Rafa leads h2h against Djokovic, Federer, Murray.
Djokovic trails Rafa and Federer.
Federer trails Rafa and Murray.
Murray trails Djokovic and Rafa.
 
He needs to win more non-clay slams. His resume is skewed towards clay. Even his second best surface(slow grass) has fetched him only 2 slams(good on its own but NOT GOAT worthy).

If you mean passing Fed's slam count, then yes he's got a shot. If for whatever reason Djokovic's level drops like we saw in MC, Ralph will clean house. I can't see anyone other than Djokovic stopping Ralph in slams this year unless Ralph starts making 12-13 UEs per set on a regular basis.
 
How does Djokovic neutralise Nadal's game exactly? Imo, Djokovic was just overall the better player between the two and not because of some matchup issue like Nadal has over Federer.
 
monfed said:
If you mean passing Fed's slam count, then yes he's got a shot. If for whatever reason Djokovic's level drops like we saw in MC, Ralph will clean house. I can't see anyone other than Djokovic stopping Ralph in slams this year unless Ralph starts making 12-13 UEs per set on a regular basis.
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You're beginning to sound like an anti-Clarky. Stop it. Clarky FTW !!!
 
I think being a serious GOAT candidate requires a lot more than a positive H2H.

Rafa needs many more slams and weeks at number 1. In my book even as a Rafa fan he becomes a tier 1 great at 13 slams and a goat candidate at 14 plus 200 weeks at number 1. That's just to be in the conversation with laver, Sampras, Fed.
 
He will never be undisputed GOAT until he breaks 16 majors. Just the way things are. Doesn't look completely out of the ballpark right now, but still pretty unlikely.
 
Even if Nadal begins to turn the tide in the Djokovic rivalry, Djokovic's emergence as a No.1 player has still effectively prevented Nadal from ever becoming GOAT. As long as Djokovic is around it will be a huge struggle for Nadal to win non clay slams. He might get one here or there, but I don't see him getting enough to contend for GOAT. Nadal is the clay GOAT, which is good enough for me.
 
papertank said:
Even if Nadal begins to turn the tide in the Djokovic rivalry, Djokovic's emergence as a No.1 player has still effectively prevented Nadal from ever becoming GOAT. As long as Djokovic is around it will be a huge struggle for Nadal to win non clay slams. He might get one here or there, but I don't see him getting enough to contend for GOAT. Nadal is the clay GOAT, which is good enough for me.
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Don't worry, Nadal has plenty more Roland Garros, Wimbledon and US Opens left. It was the Australian Open that I never expected him to win again. Although now that he's gone 6 hours with the best Australian Open player of this present era, I like Nadal's chances of another AO too.

The fact that Nadal now has a legit rival, has only boosted Nadal's legacy. Where Federer failed (to overcome Nadal), and where Borg failed (to overcome Mac), Nadal will succeed.
 
nadal_slam_king said:
Don't worry, Nadal has plenty more Roland Garros, Wimbledon and US Opens left. It was the Australian Open that I never expected him to win again. Although now that he's gone 6 hours with the best Australian Open player of this present era, I like Nadal's chances of another AO too.

The fact that Nadal now has a legit rival, has only boosted Nadal's legacy. Where Federer failed (to overcome Nadal), and where Borg failed (to overcome Mac), Nadal will succeed.
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Opportunistic times for the Nadal camp.....though I doubt it would go the way you will. He will have chances at all the slams.

10+ 1 AO,3 FO, 1 WB, 1 US.....is his best case scenario. Worst Case :10 + 1 FO. Realistic: 10 + 3 FO.....
 
kishnabe said:
Opportunistic times for the Nadal camp.....though I doubt it would go the way you will. He will have chances at all the slams.

10+ 1 AO,3 FO, 1 WB, 1 US.....is his best case scenario. Worst Case :10 + 1 FO. Realistic: 10 + 3 FO.....
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Yep, because Nadal plays horribly at Wimbledon each year that he wins Roland Garros :lol: Yep super realistic :lol:
 
Federer is at his weakest Wimbledon level ever (apart from when he was young and lost in the 1st round a few times), and Djokovic looked very messy at Wimbledon last year. And Berdych is Nadal's absolute bunny. Not a whole lot to hurt Nadal at Wimbledon for the next few years.
 
nadal_slam_king said:
Federer is at his weakest Wimbledon level ever (apart from when he was young and lost in the 1st round a few times), and Djokovic looked very messy at Wimbledon last year. And Berdych is Nadal's absolute bunny. Not a whole lot to hurt Nadal at Wimbledon for the next few years.
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Djokovic destroyed Ralph in WB last year,it wasn't close. Ralph looked vulnerable against DelPotro too if you wanna go that route.

Anyway before I try to reason with you, how many more WB finals will Ralph make according to you?
 
monfed said:
Djokovic destroyed Ralph in WB last year,it wasn't close. Ralph looked vulnerable against DelPotro too if you wanna go that route.

Anyway before I try to reason with you, how many more WB finals will Ralph make according to you?
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Nadal breadsticked Djokovic at Wimbledon last year. and Nadal broke Djokovic in the 4th set. Djokovic is in trouble if Nadal improves at all on that performance. And that was Djokovic 2.0. Look out, the ship is sinking....as we saw at the AO.

I don't want to say how many more Wimbledon's Nadal will make, because I might underestimate him. We've never seen an athlete like Nadal before, so don't even bother trying to predict how long he'll be winning slams for.
 
beast of mallorca said:
You're beginning to sound like an anti-Clarky. Stop it. Clarky FTW !!!
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7/8 slam finals stopped by one man namely Novak Djokovic. When someone other than Djokovic beats Nadal in a slam not just "upset" him, I'll consider it.
Till then zip it.
 
nadal_slam_king said:
Nadal breadsticked Djokovic at Wimbledon last year. and Nadal broke Djokovic in the 4th set. Djokovic is in trouble if Nadal improves at all on that performance. And that was Djokovic 2.0. Look out, the ship is sinking....as we saw at the AO.
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The first set Nadal was serving at over 80% and still lost,both Djokovic and Nadal playing at a high level. As expected, you conveniently left out the second set,where Djokovic thrashed Nadal. Djokovic's level dropped significantly in the third set and Nadal took advantage,hence the breadstick. The fourth set was a bit of choking from Djokovic given that it was his first WB final(his dream so understandable) and both played below par in that set anyway yet Djokovic won. Nadal's rich experience in WB finals didn't help him,how surprising.
Overall - a comprehensive victory for Djokovic.

nadal_slam_king said:
I don't want to say how many more Wimbledon's Nadal will make, because I might underestimate him. We've never seen an athlete like Nadal before, so don't even bother trying to predict how long he'll be winning slams for.
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And here I am trying to reason with you and then you come up with this fanboy nonsense.
 
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monfed said:
He needs to win more non-clay slams. His resume is skewed towards clay. Even his second best surface(slow grass) has fetched him only 2 slams(good on its own but NOT GOAT worthy).

If you mean passing Fed's slam count, then yes he's got a shot. If for whatever reason Djokovic's level drops like we saw in MC, Ralph will clean house. I can't see anyone other than Djokovic stopping Ralph in slams this year unless Ralph starts making 12-13 UEs per set on a regular basis.
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So Rafa with 2 grass and 2 h/c plus his clay slams is not GOAT worthy but Roger with only 1 clay slam is?
 
nadal_slam_king said:
Nadal breadsticked Djokovic at Wimbledon last year. and Nadal broke Djokovic in the 4th set. Djokovic is in trouble if Nadal improves at all on that performance. And that was Djokovic 2.0. Look out, the ship is sinking....as we saw at the AO.

I don't want to say how many more Wimbledon's Nadal will make, because I might underestimate him. We've never seen an athlete like Nadal before, so don't even bother trying to predict how long he'll be winning slams for.
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Totally agree.
 
nadal_slam_king said:
And Federer has to reverse the h2hs with Murray and Nadal.
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But we are NOT claiming that Roger is the GOAT. See the difference ?

We want to make it as easy as possible for Rafa to be declared GOAT. We want all this nonsense about slam count, WTF and weeks at #1 to be trashed. Only wins at MC count.

Rafa is the GOAT. Deal with it.
 
Sentinel said:
But we are NOT claiming that Roger is the GOAT. See the difference ?

We want to make it as easy as possible for Rafa to be declared GOAT. We want all this nonsense about slam count, WTF and weeks at #1 to be trashed. Only wins at MC count.

Rafa is the GOAT. Deal with it.
Click to expand...

Will Rafa bleat? :wink:
 
Would be interesting and would give him an extra boost. Indeed, to figure out a personal nemesis on this highest level and to find some extra drive to overcome this obstacle, would be the sign of a true champion.
 
I am sick of all these GOAT threads. It seems people on this forum are obsessed with the word.
 
powerangle said:
Don't think I would put Djokovic in the same tier as McEnroe yet (though he could get there), but I agree that Rafa can help his own cause by not having a deficient h2h against his rivals.

Rafa is the only one (up to this point) to have a positive h2h against the other three guys in the top 4 (3-0). All the other guys have a negative record (1-2) record against the other three:

Rafa leads h2h against Djokovic, Federer, Murray.
Djokovic trails Rafa and Federer.
Federer trails Rafa and Murray.
Murray trails Djokovic and Rafa.
Click to expand...


Other fun stats about the top 4.
More than 1 final lost to same player in career:


For Fed:
Nalbandian: 2
Murray: 2
Djokovic: 3
Nadal: 13

For Rafa:
Murray: 2
Davydenko: 3
Federer: 6
Djokovic: 7

For Djoko:
Murray: 3
Federer: 3
Nadal: 6

For Murray:
Djokovic: 2
Federer: 4


No wonder Fed fans like musing about what Fed's records would be if Rafa had not existed!!!
 
If we combine losses in semis and finals (best 4 at every event) here is what we get for more than 1 loss to same player:

Fed:
Henman: 2
Davydenko: 2
Hewitt: 3
Nalbandian: 3
Murray: 5
Djokovic: 10
Nadal: 17

Nadal:
Davydenko: 4
Murray: 4
Federer: 9
Djokovic: 12

Djokovic:
Tsonga: 2
Youzhny: 2
Murray: 4
Federer: 10
Nadal: 12

Murray:
Roddick: 2
Federer: 5
Djokovic: 6
Nadal: 9

Funny how Fed and Djoko are equal in # of times they beat each other AND Nadal and Djoko as well!! Also funny that Fed had problems with more players than the other 3. Nadal is the most difficult player to handle for each of the other top 4
 
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Sentinel said:
Actually half only, since he didn't have to play Rafa.

Therefore, again, Rafa is the GOAT.
Click to expand...

Senti Sir, your avatar doggy resembles my late stray pet. Here take a look -

2w2kght.jpg


28v58gw.jpg



What do you think?

P.S - Is your doggy your pet too? :)
 
monfed said:
7/8 slam finals stopped by one man namely Novak Djokovic. When someone other than Djokovic beats Nadal in a slam not just "upset" him, I'll consider it.
Till then zip it.
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Obviously, you did not understand my "anti-Clarky" comment. What I meant was, you made a positive remark about Rafa as compared to Clarky who always says doom and gloom comments about Rafa. The joke is lost on you Monfed. Maybe next time ey :)
 
beast of mallorca said:
Obviously, you did not understand my "anti-Clarky" comment. What I meant was, you made a positive remark about Rafa as compared to Clarky who always says doom and gloom comments about Rafa. The joke is lost on you Monfed. Maybe next time ey :)
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Yikes!!!! How did I miss that!! Very sorry,please accept my sincere apology. :(

Oh and please keep em comin man, I'm ALL for jokes!
 
nadal_slam_king said:
If Davy had beaten Nadal at a slam, the head-to-head would mean something. Although it's still not a lopsided head-to-head.
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A H2H means nothing when trying to solve the GOAT problem. You're trying to figure out who's the greatest player of all time and I'd be ready as usual to translate or to define it as being the harshest opponent to defeat, all periods confounded -- who would have better performed under most conditions?

In short, it's a generalization of certain judgement that we are doing and giving much weight to a H2H is using a very little sample of information taken in conditions that do not vary enough to compensate for potential statistical problems. When generalizing stuff, we're reverting to an induction and we're also bound to use incomplete data to bring forward a statement that we'll deem true... we're trying to reduce the chances of making a bad call because of some coincidence.

Besides, people do not always pay attention to what they are reading. Seeing 6-1 in a H2H means that, in these specific conditions, the leading player played better tennis than the other one did. However, it's not what they read: they read "the leading player is better than the other one." You don't have to tell him that in Slams it would be meaningful: the H2H is virtually meaningless unless you carefully weight its relative value and compare the possible conclusions with other data to justify your claims. But, alone, a H2H record means nothing.
 
Borg says Nadal is greatest player ever on clay.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/story/2012-04-20/monte-carlo-masters-quarterfinals/54429708/1

Tennis great Bjorn Borg watched Nadal's victory, then said on television that he considered the Spaniard the greatest player ever on clay.

"Let's wait (until) I finish my career," Nadal said. "My uncle always told me that when Bjorn goes on court, everybody feels that he's unbeatable. I don't know how to explain but I don't have this feeling."
 
octogon said:
Nadal still has the superior h2h, but the sustained period of domination Djokovic had over him in big matches for the last year (till Monte Carlo 2012) has clearly been a big blow to Nadal's legacy.

Yet...it could all be a blessing in disguise, if Nadal manages to do what other GOAT canidates (namely Borg and Federer) did not, and find a way to consistently beat a guy who neutralised their game, on the biggest stage. Borg could not overcome McEnroe and quit (arguably to secure his legacy). Federer never quit, but he was unable to beat Nadal in slams.

Nadal seems a different animal from either Borg or Federer. Unlike Borg, there's no "quit" in him. And while Nadal is capable of having a mental block against his nemesis in Djokovic, he truly seems more likely to overcome it, than Federer was against Nadal.

After early slam wins, Borg and Fedrerer were never able to defeat their main rivals at slams again. Nadal seems perfectly capable of overcoming that jinx. If he does, I think it arguably strengthens his case for greatness, especially since Djokovic is clearly an all-time great player (maybe not GOAT canidate yet, but certainly in a tier with the likes of McEnroe).
Click to expand...

You are right that if Nadal does find a way to consistantly beat Nole in future, that could go a long way when he comes in GOAT debate. However, other more important things like winning 16+ slams, winning more on HC and grass and regaining the no1 spot and staying there for atleast 100 days have to be also accomplished
 
monfed said:
Senti Sir, your avatar doggy resembles my late stray pet. Here take a look -

What do you think?

P.S - Is your doggy your pet too? :)
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing those pics. There are several of them, but this is the latest and last litter. She's one of two sisters (just got them spayed, so no more). They live on a parallel lane but very much my pets. They are 5 months old, and will look like your dog in a few months.:)
 
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