If Nadal wins this WTF, the GOAT discussion is over

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
Nadal would have done the same if in his prime he was up against Roddick Hewitt and Ferrero. Stop being delusional.
add Bagdatis to mix as well. Seriously how one on earth can compare Fed 20 to Nadal 20. Fed had a free run which stopped as soon as Nadal/Djoko emerged on the scene and you want to use that free run as an argument against Nadal/djokovic? bamboozling indeed..
 

TTMR

Hall of Fame
If people continue to maintain Fed is GOAT after all is said and done, it will be for aesthetic considerations, not statistical.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
09 bery bery tough. Who’s fault is it for almost blowing a match to Tommy Haas on clay?

Roddick in the final who would have won if he didn’t choke like Cilic.

I’m talking about slams, because slams determine greatness.

Hewitt and Roddick. Besides 04 Wimbledon final maybe they were a bunch of mugs
not talking about Haas in RG 09. talking about delpo who was GOATing.
@ bold part: only a clueless fellow/hater can say that. Roddick missed one point, that volley (federer saving the first 3 SPs with clutch play). Then took next set to TB. Then broke in the 4th set and won it. Held on till so long in the 5th set. Contrast to Djokovic crumbling big time after losing set 3 in USO 13.

hewitt played well in USO 05. slightly less so in AO 04, Wim 04, Wim 05, but still some pretty good tennis. Only USO 04 final was below par from him.
Also while hewitt didn't play fed in AO 05, he had an excellent run there.
Roddick played excellent in USO 07 vs fed.
But then your level of evaluation is SUPER-MUG.

No one in fail gen or next gen has even approached Hewitt/Roddick/Safin level, let alone ATG level. Nadal/djokovic got such a big free run.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
It's good to see some Fed fans accepting the reality. If Nadal doesn't win WTF, Fed and Djok fans can continue to poke holes in Nadal's resume (as Nadal fans can do about the OG), but if Nadal wins WTF and has the slam lead. It's done, over, ended, wrapped up, finito.
It's over even if Nadal doesn't win the WTF because 99% of tennis fans only care about the slam record. Great for Nadal. Doesn't mean I look at Fed all that much differently though. He may not be the #1 undisputed best player ever anymore as far as the slam race is concerned, but I'd stack him up very favourably against Djokovic or Nadal (or any previous era player) prime for prime.
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
not talking about Haas in RG 09. talking about delpo who was GOATing.
@ bold part: only a clueless fellow/hater can say that. Roddick missed one point, that volley (federer saving the first 3 SPs with clutch play). Then took next set to TB. Then broke in the 4th set and won it. Held on till so long in the 5th set. Contrast to Djokovic crumbling big time after losing set 3 in USO 13.

hewitt played well in USO 05. slightly less so in AO 04, Wim 04, Wim 05, but still some pretty good tennis. Only USO 04 final was below par from him.
Also while hewitt didn't play fed in AO 05, he had an excellent run there.
Roddick played excellent in USO 07 vs fed.
But then your level of evaluation is SUPER-MUG.

No one in fail gen or next gen has even approached Hewitt/Roddick/Safin level, let alone ATG level. Nadal/djokovic got such a big free run.
Counterpunching Hewitt and kamikaze net approach shot Roddick are weak era mugs. Roddick put together one good match in W 04 and Hewitt played like a decent version of Murray in one slam encounter with Fed, USO 2005, but overall it was a weak weak era.

Hewitt gets blown off of any non fast court against guys like Thiem.
 

zvelf

Professional
No. WTF is irrelevant to the GOAT debate.

The primary critetia is slams. Whomever wins the most slams, has the greatest claim to GOAT. Whether that be Federer (unlikely at this point) or Nadal or Djokovic remains to be seen.
So you think Emerson is greater than Laver? Wrong.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Counterpunching Hewitt and kamikaze net approach shot Roddick are weak era mugs. Roddick put together one decent match in W 04 and Hewitt played like a decent version of Murray in one slam encounter with Fed, but overall it was a weak weak era.
Like I said, your level of evaluation is SUPER-MUG.
Ignoring delpo of RG 09 (oh, but wait, you probably never saw that - after your boy went out to Soderling), I see.
Only a hater/bad evaluator can call Roddick Wim 09 as a choke on the whole.

If Roddick/Hewitt are mugs, then so is Djokovic's level of play in USO 10, USO 13 (among many other matches vs Nadal) and that's the realtively tougher of the 2 USOs for WeakUSOdal.
2017 USo is like, LMAO, are you serious. That's what you call a draw? No top 25 seed and delpo gassed after a set. Andeson making Nadal look like Ivanisevic, LMAO.
Another cakewalk to the final in 2019. and med didn't wake up until 2 sets to love down in the final.

Again, Roddick of USO 03 final/USO 07 QF for instance would beat all versions of Djokovic at USO except 11 and maybe 15.
prime Hewitt would beat many of those versions of Djokovic as well- Guy absolutely crushed Kafelnikov&Sampras in 01 SF/F. Played great in USO 04 till the final.
Played well vs FEd in USO 05.
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
Like I said, your level of evaluation is SUPER-MUG.
If Roddick/Hewitt are mugs, then so is Djokovic's level of play in USO 10, USO 13 (among many other matches vs Nadal) and that's the realtively tougher of the 2 USOs for WeakUSOdal.
2017 USo is like, LMAO, are you serious. That's what you call a draw? No top 25 seed and delpo gassed after a set. Andeson making Nadal look like Ivanisevic, LMAO.
Another cakewalk to the final in 2019. and med didn't wake up until 2 sets to love down in the final.

Again, Roddick of USO 03 final/USO 07 QF for instance would beat all versions of Djokovic at USO except 11 and maybe 15.
prime Hewitt would beat many of those versions of Djokovic as well
- Guy absolutely crushed Kafelnikov&Sampras in 01 SF/F. Played great in USO 04 till the final.
Played well vs FEd in USO 05.
Utter nonsense. Nice try though. The argument is over when two “LMAOs” are dropped in desperation.

You seem to be forgetting W 17 final against injured choking Cilic, and AO 18 freebie, when he had a walkover over Hyeon Chung in the SF.
 

Third Serve

G.O.A.T.
Like I said, your level of evaluation is SUPER-MUG.
If Roddick/Hewitt are mugs, then so is Djokovic's level of play in USO 10, USO 13 (among many other matches vs Nadal) and that's the realtively tougher of the 2 USOs for WeakUSOdal.
2017 USo is like, LMAO, are you serious. That's what you call a draw? No top 25 seed and delpo gassed after a set. Andeson making Nadal look like Ivanisevic, LMAO.
Another cakewalk to the final in 2019. and med didn't wake up until 2 sets to love down in the final.

Again, Roddick of USO 03 final/USO 07 QF for instance would beat all versions of Djokovic at USO except 11 and maybe 15.
prime Hewitt would beat many of those versions of Djokovic as well- Guy absolutely crushed Kafelnikov&Sampras in 01 SF/F. Played great in USO 04 till the final.
Played well vs FEd in USO 05.
Also played pretty well at W 2004.
 

Third Serve

G.O.A.T.
Anyone trying to say that Fed's AO 2004, W 2004, USO 2004, and USO 2005 were weak while excusing Nadal's USO draws (and overlooking his W 2010 draw) is just... bleh.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Utter nonsense. Nice try though. The argument is over when two “LMAOs” are dropped in desperation.
ha ha ha ha.
wait
ha ha ha ha

can't deal with muggery (by your own standards) of Djoko at USO in 2010 and even more so in 2013? Guy couldn't even compose himself and got breadsticked after choking away set 3.

Anderson did make Nadal look like Ivanisevic in that USO 17 final. Too bad - you can't deal with it.

You seem to be forgetting W 17 final against injured choking Cilic, and AO 18 freebie, when he had a walkover over Hyeon Chung in the SF.
I put 2017 as a weak year for both Fed&nadal, did I not? Even with AO 17 being a tough draw for Fed.
Are you blind?

AO 18 was a weak slam and 18 overall a weak year, but its primary beneficiary was Djokovic.
AO 18 final Cilic > USO 18 final delpo
 
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daggerman

Professional
The GOAT discussion, whatever that even amounts to, is never over. Tennis will go on after tomorrow.

I'm sure people said after the 1969 Australian Open that the GOAT discussion, whatever that was like at the time, was over.
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
ha ha ha ha.
wait
ha ha ha ha

can't deal with muggery (by your own standards) of Djoko at USO in 2010 and even more so in 2013? Guy couldn't even compose himself and got breadsticked after choking away set 3.

Anderson did make Nadal look like Ivanisevic in that USO 17 final. Too bad - you can't deal with it.



I put 2017 as a weak year for both Fed&nadal, did I not? Even with AO 17 being a tough draw for Fed.
Are you blind?

AO 18 was a weak slam and 18 overall a weak year, but its primary beneficiary was Djokovic.
AO 18 final Cilic > USO 18 final delpo
USO 2010 and 13 Djokovic pass Roddick USO 07 at will with all his panic approach shots. Hewitt has no weapons to pose a threat to the greatest HC player of all time. That’s simply nonsense.

Hewitt USO 05 and Roddick W 04 was these guys throwing the kitchen sink, playing way past their comfort zone. At the end of the day, it’s laughable to compare these guys to competition that includes Djokovic Fed or Murray.
 

Beckerserve

Hall of Fame
It's all in the thread title.

If he wins the WTF, he will have done everything. Olympic Gold, all four grand slams, tied for most grand slams, many weeks at #1 and most at #2, Masters, clay supremacy. There's just no path for Djokovic or Federer to overtake him anymore once Nadal closes the deal here. That will be it for at least a generation or two.
Nadal is already GOAT. Pretty much every expert grudgingly admits it. At worst he is co goat with Federer. What is for sure is there is a Big 2.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
USO 2010 and 13 Djokovic pass Roddick USO 07 at will with all his panic approach shots. Hewitt has no weapons to pose a threat to the greatest HC player of all time. That’s simply nonsense.

Hewitt USO 05 and Roddick W 04 was these guys throwing the kitchen sink, playing way past their comfort zone. At the end of the day, it’s laughable to compare these guys to competition that includes Djokovic Fed or Murray.
LOL, there were very few panic shots from Roddick in USO 07 QF.
Guy didn't face a single BP vs fed who was returning fairly well for 2 whole sets. It took amazing tennis from Fed to beat him, including some absolute magic in the TBs like that return of 140mph serve at Roddick's feet.
Your evaluation is a complete joke.

Djokovic isn't the greatest HC player of all time. Fed is. Also djokovic isn't even top 4 at the USO - either achievements wise or level wise. (federer, sampras, connors, lendl, mac and heck even nadal achievements wise)
Old, broken down Hewitt was taking Djokovic to 4 sets at the AO, LOL.
Prime hewitt would beat USO 10, USO 12 final (wind), USO 13, USO 14 and USO 16 djokovic.
USO 15 & 18 finals would be close. 11 Djoko would obviously take it.
 

zvelf

Professional
Emerson won most of his titles pre-Open era. Emerson won his slams when only amateurs were allowed, and professionals were banned.

Try again.
So you think Kriek is greater than Roddick, Kodes and Warinka are greater than Nastase, Wilander is greater than Becker.
 

mahesh69a

Semi-Pro
A guy who has ONE non-clay title defense (that too came in 2019 after nearly 18 years of being pro) is no GOAT irrespective of the fact that he may finally get a WTF title during a global pandemic.
 
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BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
LOL, there were very few panic shots from Roddick in USO 07 QF.
Guy didn't face a single BP vs fed who was returning fairly well for 2 whole sets. It took amazing tennis from Fed to beat him, including some absolute magic in the TBs like that return of 140mph serve at Roddick's feet.
Your evaluation is a complete joke.

Djokovic isn't the greatest HC player of all time. Fed is. Also djokovic isn't even top 4 at the USO - either achievements wise or level wise. (federer, sampras, connors, lendl, mac and heck even nadal achievements wise)
Old, broken down Hewitt was taking Djokovic to 4 sets at the AO, LOL.
Prime hewitt would beat USO 10, USO 12 final (wind), USO 13, USO 14 and USO 16 djokovic.
USO 15 & 18 finals would be close. 11 Djoko would obviously take it.
Roddick was approaching the net on dollies. I saw the whole match. At AO 07 it was downright awful, but this was also quite bad.

Ever since Roddicks forehand went downhill since 03 he was hopeless against ATG competition. US 08 he was easily dispatched by baby Djokovic

Prime Hewitt was not beating any Djokovic besides maybe USO 2016.

Prepubescent Nadal in 2004 was already taking sets off of Hewitt on HC and nearly beat him in thd 4th round of AO 05.
 

TTMR

Hall of Fame
Nadal is already GOAT. Pretty much every expert grudgingly admits it. At worst he is co goat with Federer. What is for sure is there is a Big 2.
But again, this is a four dimensional world with time as the fourth dimension. Federer is only co-goat without that fourth dimension--the passage of time dictates he will drop out of the GOAT equation.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Roddick was approaching the net on dollies. I saw the whole match. At AO 07 it was downright awful, but this was also quite bad.
assuming you are not lying, you have one of the worst observation skills in the world or you are completely deluded/filled with hatred. Roddick played a great match, approached fairly well in that match and you can't deal with it. Period.

Ever since Roddicks forehand went downhill since 03 he was hopeless against ATG competition. US 08 he was easily dispatched by baby Djokovic
Roddick's FH went downhill in since 03? LOL, it was there for entire of 2004. You are hopelessly clueless. Whoever told you that left you out to dry, kiddo.
From now on, I'm not going to take your tennis stuff anywhere near seriously after such an utterly, completely hopelessly clueless statement. I gave some modicum of respect for it till now by default, but no more. Your are clubbed with the Lews of TTW.

USO 08, roddick played nowhere near his best and it could've easily gone 5 sets. 08 USO djokovic > 10/13 djokovic at the USO
Roddick did get that FH back in some tournaments. USO 07 was one example. Dubai 08 where he crushed Nadal/Djokovic etc was another.
But then you are blind to not see such stuff. Too immersed in your hatred/fanboyism of Nadal (/praising competition for him)

Prime Hewitt was not beating any Djokovic besides maybe USO 2016.
bwhaha
ha ha ha
Nishikori beat him in USO 14, but hewitt couldn't beat him? Good joke.
Djoko played below par vs Youzhny in USO 13 QF, not so good vs stan in the SF, awful in the 1st and final sets vs Nadal. He'd lose to prime Hewitt.

etc.

Prepubescent Nadal in 2004 was already taking sets off of Hewitt on HC and nearly beat him in thd 4th round of AO 05.
Nadal was winning Canada&Madrid in 05 already.
Nadal also went 5 sets vs Petzschener&Haase in early rounds at Wim in 10, so what?
Hewitt raised his level after that 4R match vs Nadal at AO 05.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Agreed. All that matters is Halle and Dubai. And weeks #1 accumulated against weaker competition.

PLAYER CRITERIA

* Number of Major Titles won
* Overall performance at Grand Slam Events
* Player Ranking
* Performance at ATP/WTA events
* Performance(Win/loss record) at Davis & Fed Cup events
* Records held or broken(i.e. Consecutive winning streaks)
* Intangibles(Overall contribution to tennis)
 
It's all in the thread title.

If he wins the WTF, he will have done everything. Olympic Gold, all four grand slams, tied for most grand slams, many weeks at #1 and most at #2, Masters, clay supremacy. There's just no path for Djokovic or Federer to overtake him anymore once Nadal closes the deal here. That will be it for at least a generation or two.
1. There is no GOAT.

2. WTF pales in comparison to 20 slam wins, literally an ant surrounded by 20 elephants.

3. Olympics is vastly overrated. Glorified M1000.

4. He won't win it.

5. Nobody older than 30 has won it, not even in the GAS age.
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
assuming you are not lying, you have one of the worst observation skills in the world or you are completely deluded/filled with hatred. Roddick played a great match, approached fairly well in that match and you can't deal with it. Period.



Roddick's FH went downhill in since 03? LOL, it was there for entire of 2004. You are hopelessly clueless. Whoever told you that left you out to dry, kiddo.
From now on, I'm not going to take your tennis stuff anywhere near seriously after such an utterly, completely hopelessly clueless statement. I gave some modicum of respect for it till now by default, but no more. Your are clubbed with the Lews of TTW.

USO 08, roddick played nowhere near his best and it could've easily gone 5 sets. 08 USO djokovic > 10/13 djokovic at the USO
Roddick did get that FH back in some tournaments. USO 07 was one example. Dubai 08 where he crushed Nadal/Djokovic etc was another.
But then you are blind to not see such stuff. Too immersed in your hatred/fanboyism of Nadal (/praising competition for him)



bwhaha
ha ha ha
Nishikori beat him in USO 14, but hewitt couldn't beat him? Good joke.
Djoko played below par vs Youzhny in USO 13 QF, not so good vs stan in the SF, awful in the 1st and final sets vs Nadal. He'd lose to prime Hewitt.

etc.



Nadal was winning Canada&Madrid in 05 already.
Nadal also went 5 sets vs Petzschener&Haase in early rounds at Wim in 10, so what?
Hewitt raised his level after that 4R match vs Nadal at AO 05.
I wonder why prepubescent Nadal was already winning HC titles on his worst surface in 05? Hmm.

Hewitts not beating Djokovic. That’s delusional.

Roddick s forehand was at his peak in 03, and by 05 it was a looping disaster.

That’s why Fed’s competition was so weak from 04-06. Roddick played one good match at W 04 and besides that he’d just be a sitting duck at the net. Hewitt guiding balls crosscourt like a pusher is hardly impressive.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I wonder why prepubescent Nadal was already winning HC titles on his worst surface in 05? Hmm.
hmm, maybe because Nadal was playing well? He was just not the most consistent on HC and had some matchup issues with some players like Blake, Nalby etc. Doesn't mean he was poor on HC that time.

Hewitts not beating Djokovic. That’s delusional.
of course he is. no question.

Roddick s forehand was at his peak in 03, and by 05 it was a looping disaster.
when you say it wasn't there in 2004, your tennis knowledge of that period plumets to zero. ZERO.

That’s why Fed’s competition was so weak from 04-06. Roddick played one good match at W 04 and besides that he’d just be a sitting duck at the net. Hewitt guiding balls crosscourt like a pusher is hardly impressive.
Roddick = 5-4 vs djokovic (if we exclude 1 match in 10 and 1 in 12, it becomes 4-3)
Djokovic hitting every other ball into the stand or into the net in USO 13 final 1st and 4th set is SUPER-mug.
2010 djokovic was of course worst djokovic of 07-16 by far.

08 Djokovic was clearly better.

hewitt would pummel Djokovic of USO 14 and would beat many other versions (USO 10, USO 12 final, USO 13 etc.)

LMAO. Nishimug of the worst gen (again djokodal so lucky) beats djoko in USO 14, but hewitt won't beat him?
:-D :-D
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
hmm, because Nadal was playing well. He was just inconsistent and had some matchup issues with some players like Blake, Nalby etc. Doesn't mean he was poor on HC that time.



of course he is. no question.



when you say it wasn't there in 2004, your tennis knowledge of that period plumets to zero. ZERO.



Roddick = 5-4 vs djokovic (if we exclude 1 match in 10 and 1 in 12, it becomes 4-3)
Djokovic hitting every other ball into the stand or into the net in USO 13 final 1st and 4th set is SUPER-mug.
2010 djokovic was of course worst djokovic of 07-16 by far.

08 Djokovic was clearly better.

hewitt would pummel Djokovic of USO 14 and would beat many other versions (USO 10, USO 12 final, USO 13 etc.)

LMAO. Nishimug of the worst gen (again djokodal so lucky) beats djoko in USO 14, but hewitt won't beat him?
:-D :-D
Oh nice, twisting narratives to shape your agenda. Haven’t seen that at all.

Hewitts not pummeling anybody besides Bjorkman.

did you see USO 2014 SF? They would have had to stop the coverage because of live murder, if Nishikori was playing Hewitt in that SF.

And yes, Roddicks forehand peaked in 03 and by 05 it was club quality. Get real.
 

TTMR

Hall of Fame
This is absolutely EGREGIOUS WTF trolling.

A single WTF title carries nowhere near that much weight.
So much desperation over an "exho". Keep going bull fan bois.
It's not desperation. We all know the WTF is not that big of a deal. Nadal is probably GOAT without it. But that "probably" moves to "definitely" once he does win it, since it's literally the only hole in his resume.
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
It's not desperation. We all know the WTF is not that big of a deal. Nadal is probably GOAT without it. But that "probably" moves to "definitely" once he does win it, since it's literally the only hole in his resume.
Nah. WTF is a meme trophy. If Nadal gets the AO, USO or W one more time it’s a done deal.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Oh nice, twisting narratives to shape your agenda. Haven’t seen that at all.
no twisting just stating reality.

Hewitts not pummeling anybody besides Bjorkman.

did you see USO 2014 SF? They would have had to stop the coverage because of live murder, if Nishikori was playing Hewitt in that SF.
yeah, I did watch. I also made a thread after watching the other semi that Cilic would easily beat Nishi based on their forms.

That was a flawless performance from cilic vs federer. If he can keep up that level vs nishikori, the title is his.

But Nishi at the moment is a far better returner than federer and will get back more serves into play.
prime Hewitt would take out that Nishi.

live murder? I think your tennis knowledge just went to negative.

 

Born_to_slice

Hall of Fame
Thank God. Those GOAT discussions are awful.

There's only a slight problem with the fact that tennis will still be played after this WTF.
 

Gazelle

Legend
I wonder why prepubescent Nadal was already winning HC titles on his worst surface in 05? Hmm.

Hewitts not beating Djokovic. That’s delusional.

Roddick s forehand was at his peak in 03, and by 05 it was a looping disaster.

That’s why Fed’s competition was so weak from 04-06. Roddick played one good match at W 04 and besides that he’d just be a sitting duck at the net. Hewitt guiding balls crosscourt like a pusher is hardly impressive.
That's what Djokovic has been doing for years now. He's lucky there's no prime Federer around so he gets away with it, unlike Hewitt.
 

BackhandDTL

Hall of Fame
That's what Djokovic has been doing for years now. He's lucky there's no prime Federer around so he gets away with it, unlike Hewitt.
Yeah Djokovic is getting a bit lucky having to face post 12-13 pusher Murray and geriatric Fed from 15-16. Nadal never had that luxury though....once Fed was declining Djokovic was peaking.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
That's what Djokovic has been doing for years now. He's lucky there's no prime Federer around so he gets away with it, unlike Hewitt.
no prime Wawrinka either, who is 4-1 in their last 5 slam matches.
and the one that Djoko won, Stan played below par - AO 2015 SF (Djokovic was less worse)
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Yeah Djokovic is getting a bit lucky having to face post 12-13 pusher Murray and geriatric Fed from 15-16. Nadal never had that luxury though....once Fed was declining Djokovic was peaking.
yeah, he did in 2010. All the other 3 were in a slump/inconsistent for big chunk of 2010. (no defending champion delpo in USO 2010 either)
Also got a mugging Djokovic in USO 2013.

then of course his super legendary USO 17 draw and another weak draw in 2019.

no one playing well in RG 2020 either (nadal didn't play great until the final). Thiem mugging it in RG 17/RG 18 vs him. (lets leave RG 17 final aside - Nadal was too good there and stan had to come off a brutal 5-setter vs murray)
only playing well for 2 sets in RG 19 final etc.
 

Gazelle

Legend
Yes and when that happens, Nadal will continue to add to his record-breaking slam count via FO victories.
At least 5 more FO victories for Nadal. As ugly as it is, it's hard to argue with that. I'll keep my ammo for the unlikely scenario Fed recaptures the slam record.
 
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