N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Why would that be any better than 2008 where he beat Djokovic and then Murray to win the US Open. Djokovic had the form to maybe win that 2007 US Open but lost focus at key times.
90's Clay
Banned
19-20 year old Nole? Fed should win that. He was the experienced veteran close to his peak days. Djoker was just an inexperienced greenhorn at the time
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
The Order's earlier argument is flawed, talking about how Federer benefited from having two HC majors to contest in a way that can be argued to be lucky or unfair. The AO is more suited to Nadal's game now since the plexicushion change arguably anyway, but every single pro right now grew up knowing the score -- that the four Slam events were played on a clay court, a grass court and two hard courts.
The information was there from the beginning, and the preparation is guided accordingly.
Of course sometimes players can get lucky mid career where things suddenly change that benefit them and give them the chance to kick-start their careers at the highest level, such as arguably the AO surface change in 2008 for Djokovic, or the grass changes for the winners since, especially Federer.
The information was there from the beginning, and the preparation is guided accordingly.
Of course sometimes players can get lucky mid career where things suddenly change that benefit them and give them the chance to kick-start their careers at the highest level, such as arguably the AO surface change in 2008 for Djokovic, or the grass changes for the winners since, especially Federer.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
90's Clay
Banned
What about 2012 Wimbledon?
Indoor grass?? .. Always have to favor the bigger hitter and aggressor. Grass under a roof, I wouldn't give Murray and Nole much of a chance in hell vs. Federer.
I shouldn't say that about Nole as he can play on indoor hards but hes bad enough as it is on grass.. But indoor grass? Hes naturally gonna be even worse
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Clearly RG 2009 is the best, he beat da man who beat da man, lol.
jelle v
Hall of Fame
(I would quote more of your posts in this thread, but they are all saying the same thing and I cannot really be bothered)
So basically what you're saying, is that Federer's achievements amount to nothing, because he beat everyone he was supposed to beat.. great reasoning there...
90's Clay
Banned
No.. Just FAR less impressive than most of Nadal's slam wins (That came against Federer, Djoker, and Murray to win damn near ALL of them)
jelle v
Hall of Fame
But Nadal is supposed to beat all of them.. he is better after all, right?
eldanger25
Hall of Fame
Another Wimbledon, and with it a third Channel Slam, would definitely bring Nadal closer to best of the Open Era. That third title at a given slam - particularly Wimbledon - just carries with it that extra reverential quality (there's a reason folks gush a little more about Mac and Becker than about Connors or Edberg at SW19, even though just one title separates them).
That said, he still wouldn't be there yet for me, given the myriad accomplishments still on Fed's side of the ledger (more weeks at #1; more YE#1s; more majors; more titles overall; defending titles on multiple surfaces; co-owner of most titles at 3 of the 4 majors; and, not to be underestimated, Nadal's issues with indoor tennis (one masters shield and two YEC finalist finishes in 10 years).
I think Rafa needs to overtake - or at least be within shouting distance of - Fed in a few more of the above categories, many of which implicitly measure the consistency of one's greatness, to match and then pass Federer in my eyes.
Definitely doable, particularly if he stays on the circuit another year or two past Rio.
That said, he still wouldn't be there yet for me, given the myriad accomplishments still on Fed's side of the ledger (more weeks at #1; more YE#1s; more majors; more titles overall; defending titles on multiple surfaces; co-owner of most titles at 3 of the 4 majors; and, not to be underestimated, Nadal's issues with indoor tennis (one masters shield and two YEC finalist finishes in 10 years).
I think Rafa needs to overtake - or at least be within shouting distance of - Fed in a few more of the above categories, many of which implicitly measure the consistency of one's greatness, to match and then pass Federer in my eyes.
Definitely doable, particularly if he stays on the circuit another year or two past Rio.
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nikdom
Guest
Everybody and their grandma was calling Roger GOAT before he crossed 14 slams. (incl me)
GOAT isn't just about number of slams. It's about a measure of impressive achievements coupled with the manner of domination over the existing field.
There are no perfect answers and every contender has some holes in their resume'. I would take 2004-2007 Roger as the best display of tennis ever. But again it is subjective.
Nadal as GOAT is also not perfect and there are plenty of holes in his resume but what do you call someone who has a overwhelming winning record against a fellow GOAT contender even if a couple of slams short?
Well if it's not just about slams, and as according to you 2004-2007 was the best display of tennis EVER, then by that definition you must declare Roger the GOAT.
No players at their peak years have dominate tennis like Roger did between 2004-2007. Borg is 2nd behind, follow by Nadal.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
That means he's a couple of slams short. No more and no less. Unless you think H2H trumps slams. In truth, H2H is only good if it leads to titles and slams. Granted most of Nadal's wins over Federer have lead to titles, but some haven't. AO 2012 and 2014 didn't lead to titles and WTF 2013 didn't either.
Besides, the H2H is inflated now because Nadal is still getting the last out of his best years whereas Federer is a complete shadow of himself. The true H2H probably finished at whatever it was before 2013. Nadal beat Federer at the WTF for god sake. That should tell you everything because we know if Federer is anywhere near his best he beats Nadal indoors. The first 4 matches proved that and 2 of those were in 2010 and 2011.
Federer scrapped his way past Delpo, Wawrinka and Haas last year only to get his *** kicked by Nadal, and the other match was on clay in Rome. I mean, give me a break. I think 18-10 is a fair assessment of what the rivalry was, but 23-10 is just making it look worse than it really is.
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The more you dominate, the fewer slams other tournaments, and weeks at #1 left for the other players. Federer was just better than Nadal and the past legends.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
But the thing is Murray and Federer don't look so hot either and we know how Djokovic has done in slams for a while. If Nadal can get past the first week he can win it. The problem is, can he get past the first week?
monfed
Banned
Stop being so scared of Nadal winning every tournament there is just cause he got a high margin game, it's unbecoming. Ralph got dumped out in the first week two consecutive times. As hard as it maybe for you to believe , Ralph isn't gonna win every tournament he enters and grass his worst surface by a mile.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
Monfed buzz off. You are the last person on this forum to be talking about unbecoming behavior with your absolute unhealthy anti-Nadal fixation.
I never said Nadal was going to win every tournament he enters, in fact I said in several posts that he has declined the most on grass. What I did say was that although Nadal looks like he has declined the most on grass, if he can somehow survive the first week, he is a threat to win the title because if you have not noticed, Murray, Federer and Djokovic are having their own problems lately. Federer looks rusty and his movement has declined a lot. Murray has not had that same spark since his Wimbledon win and back surgery and Djokovic can't seem to win a slam to save his life. None of them look like they are ready to win Wimbledon but guess what, one of those four will very likely be holding up the Wimbledon trophy in the next few weeks.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
Who do you see winning Wimbledon mate?
I have no idea right now. I will need to see the draw for starters.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
You're right, I'll ask you again in eight days time. :wink:
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
And you? Are you out of your doom and gloom prediction mode for Djokovic?
borg number one
Legend
Nadal needs to reverse his slide on grass courts. Murray is the defending champ, yet he's recovering from an injury and a bad loss in the French SF to Nadal. Federer lost early at the French and lost early at Wimbledon last year, and Djokovic has under performed at the majors since the 2013 AO. So, all the top players have their challenges to overcome, so will one of the big four win Wimbledon again? I think Nadal could do very well with hot conditions.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Yeah I'm definitely feeling much more optimistic now thanks. Funnily enough, even though I've said these past couple of years that I don't see Nole ever winning Wimbledon again, I feel that he has a great chance this year. I suspect he'll be eager to quickly bounce back from the RG defeat and he's too great a player to be reaching so many Slam finals and not win any of them. So yeah, I'm backing my guy all the way to lift the trophy for the second time this year!
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah I'm definitely feeling much more optimistic now thanks. Funnily enough, even though I've said these past couple of years that I don't see Nole ever winning Wimbledon again, I feel that he has a great chance this year. I suspect he'll be eager to quickly bounce back from the RG defeat and he's too great a player to be reaching so many Slam finals and not win any of them. So yeah, I'm backing my guy all the way to lift the trophy for the second time this year!
Right on!!
abmk
Bionic Poster
yeah ....
and even before 13, it wasn't anywhere near a balanced surface wise match distribution either ....
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
Oh yes, but you know how they get about that....
furryballs
Banned
9/14 on clay........18/27 on clay.....mr 60 odd percent clay,clay being about 30% of the season.45 /65 tourney wins........guess which surface?
furryballs
Banned
what a complete load of r soles
Noleberic123
G.O.A.T.
Yeah I'm definitely feeling much more optimistic now thanks. Funnily enough, even though I've said these past couple of years that I don't see Nole ever winning Wimbledon again, I feel that he has a great chance this year. I suspect he'll be eager to quickly bounce back from the RG defeat and he's too great a player to be reaching so many Slam finals and not win any of them. So yeah, I'm backing my guy all the way to lift the trophy for the second time this year!
I think he will, nadal hasn't won a match on grass for 2 years and murray hasn't seem to hit top form yet. and of course theres still Federer but I doubt he can take 3 sets of nole. im very excited to hopefully see him lifting the trophy because have forgotten the feeling after he wins a slam
There can never be a GOAT. How many times does it have to be said?
Nadal winning 9 FOs in 10 years is amazing, but is it the greatest accomplishment in tennis? No. If a player wins Auckland 20 years in a row, does that make it the greatest accomplishment in tennis history? Nadal has not fluked any FO win, however, he already has one hand on the trophy before the tournament even begis because the rest of the field already have it in their head that they can’t beat Nadal at RG.
Nadal having won the FO 9 times is amazing. But Nadal’s problem is, he chose the wrong tournament to dominate. The FO traditionally ranks third behind Wimbledon and the USO, in that order. If you’re going to win one event 9 times in 10 years, then make it Wimbledon. Then there can be no denying him.
Federer has 7 Wimbledon and 5 USO titles to Nadal’s 2 and 2. So in the two single most important events in tennis, ie the blue ribbon events, Fed leads Nadal 12-4. To me that more than negates Nadal’s 9 FOs to Fed’s 1. To me that is more important than 17-14. So for this reason, Nadal can never be GOAT. Even if he was to win 4 more FOs, it still does not detract from the fact that in the biggest events, Federer leads 12-4.
On the flip side of the coin, the H2H between these two is ridiculously lopsided, given Fed’s status as a GOAT contender. So that rules Fed out as a GOAT also.
Read my text:
THE
GOAT
DOES
NOT
EXIST
A group of GOAT contenders, yes that exists. But no one at this point in time is the GOAT.
Nadal winning 9 FOs in 10 years is amazing, but is it the greatest accomplishment in tennis? No. If a player wins Auckland 20 years in a row, does that make it the greatest accomplishment in tennis history? Nadal has not fluked any FO win, however, he already has one hand on the trophy before the tournament even begis because the rest of the field already have it in their head that they can’t beat Nadal at RG.
Nadal having won the FO 9 times is amazing. But Nadal’s problem is, he chose the wrong tournament to dominate. The FO traditionally ranks third behind Wimbledon and the USO, in that order. If you’re going to win one event 9 times in 10 years, then make it Wimbledon. Then there can be no denying him.
Federer has 7 Wimbledon and 5 USO titles to Nadal’s 2 and 2. So in the two single most important events in tennis, ie the blue ribbon events, Fed leads Nadal 12-4. To me that more than negates Nadal’s 9 FOs to Fed’s 1. To me that is more important than 17-14. So for this reason, Nadal can never be GOAT. Even if he was to win 4 more FOs, it still does not detract from the fact that in the biggest events, Federer leads 12-4.
On the flip side of the coin, the H2H between these two is ridiculously lopsided, given Fed’s status as a GOAT contender. So that rules Fed out as a GOAT also.
Read my text:
THE
GOAT
DOES
NOT
EXIST
A group of GOAT contenders, yes that exists. But no one at this point in time is the GOAT.
sunny_cali
Semi-Pro
Pretty much this. You could logically define the best of your era, but to try and encompass all preceding era's, especially with the radical differences in surfaces and racket technologies is (to me) an incomprehensible, illogical stretch.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
At the moment all slams are equal IMO.
But what hurts Nadal a bit IMO is a lack of another dominant slam.
For instance, other GOAT candidates have another dominant slam.
Borg has dominated RG and W, Sampras has dominted W and USO. Federer has dominated W and USO. 3 GOAT candidates already with 2 dominant slams.
Nadal is 1-2-2 outside his pet slam. He hasn't dominated another slam except the FO,while the other 3 have done just that.
If he wins 2 more titles at either W or USO I might revise that. But he needs more titles at another slam IMO.
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
mellowyellow
Legend
These last few haters look more and more pathetic trying to constantly diminish increasingly mindblowing achievements. Fluking 14 slams :lol: it's entertaining though.
Thars great, so symbolic that you use a roided up wrestler gif for a Nadal thread...priceless
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
According to my calculations and in the perspective of the GOAT debate, Rafa's goal this year should be: win another slam and WTF.
If you compare Fed and Nadal at same age, end of 27th year (2008 for Fed, 2013 for Nadal), they are exactly tie in slams: 13. In order to stay (at least) tie at the end of this year, Nadal has to win 2 (1 already in the bag: given the state of affairs with Murray, Fed's age and his slam head to head record vs Djoko, I like his chances of doing it).
In masters, Nadal has a huge margin: 26 vs 14 for Fed. 500: 14 for Nadal vs 8 for Fed. 250: 18 for Fed vs only 6 for Nadal (no possible catching up but who cares about minor leagues?)
4 WTF for Fed, 0 for Nadal (but 1 Ol gold). I say, Rafa needs at least 1 WTF. He was in final last year, Djoko will be distracted by baby, excellent opportunity to finally grab 1!
If you compare Fed and Nadal at same age, end of 27th year (2008 for Fed, 2013 for Nadal), they are exactly tie in slams: 13. In order to stay (at least) tie at the end of this year, Nadal has to win 2 (1 already in the bag: given the state of affairs with Murray, Fed's age and his slam head to head record vs Djoko, I like his chances of doing it).
In masters, Nadal has a huge margin: 26 vs 14 for Fed. 500: 14 for Nadal vs 8 for Fed. 250: 18 for Fed vs only 6 for Nadal (no possible catching up but who cares about minor leagues?)
4 WTF for Fed, 0 for Nadal (but 1 Ol gold). I say, Rafa needs at least 1 WTF. He was in final last year, Djoko will be distracted by baby, excellent opportunity to finally grab 1!
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
I think Nadal should(if things continue as they have been going for the past two years) be able to win two slams this year. I said at the beginning of the year that Nadal will probably win two slams. But in tennis you never know for sure and things change quickly. Djokovic may come back from the dead in slams off clay vs Nadal and Murray will come out of his coma at some point. Federer could possibly win one more slam as well. So, it is not a lock for Nadal.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
I think this is fair. If he can get to 17 and win a couple of non-clay slams in the process that will make the argument more convincing in his favor for sure.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Nadal IMO is too good to not win a WTF in his career. It would be a shame if he finished without this title in his pocket
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Djoko has lost too many slam matches recently (vs his main rivals) for him to currently be a lock at any slam. And when I say that, I don't mean he doesn't have a chance or something, I don't even mean he is not the favorite. But a lock? No way.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
And btw I should have added: end the year as #1 (but if Rafa wins another slam, that shouldn't be a problem). Fed had 5 year ends as #1. 2014 would be Rafa's 4th.
