IF Novak retired at the USO?

pj80

Hall of Fame
No trolling but a hypothetical. If he retired at the absolute pinnacle with #21. Even if Rafa won 2 more French surely no one would care right?

Like it would be the ultimate boss move. Jordan & Elway in 98/99.
I've had that feeling for awhile that should he win he will retire
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
I think you'll find that retiring at the top is overrated. In that scenario Rafa wouldn't just win 2 more RG, he'd win at least 4 maybe 5, plus a USO and maybe even a Wimbledon. Djokovic is the only one who can stop him and vice versa to some extent. The debate would swing in Nadal's favour pretty quickly I think. You'd be surprised.
 

mmk

Hall of Fame
I despise him, but what would be the incentive for him to retire? He seems to still be fit without any injuries or real rivals. I'd keep going, he could get to 30 or more majors.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
It would be a boss move to go out like that. However, I think Novak still enjoys tennis and after winning the CYGS, he'd have no reason to think that he couldn't win several more Slam titles if he kept going.

Plus, there's still a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$ to be made just by hanging around.
 

BGod

Legend
I think you'll find that retiring at the top is overrated. In that scenario Rafa wouldn't just win 2 more RG, he'd win at least 4 maybe 5, plus a USO and maybe even a Wimbledon. Djokovic is the only one who can stop him and vice versa to some extent. The debate would swing in Nadal's favour pretty quickly I think. You'd be surprised.
Novak is the one who broke the mold for 30+ winning Slams not Rafa. Nadal was 1 Slam last 2 seasons and you think at 36 he's adding how many? He might not even have 1 left in him.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Novak is the one who broke the mold for 30+ winning Slams not Rafa. Nadal was 1 Slam last 2 seasons and you think at 36 he's adding how many? He might not even have 1 left in him.
Nobody has won 30+ slams and even Novak isn't likely to do it, and that's being extremely cautious. Nobody has broken any "mold." Let's not exaggerate here.

And who stops Rafa at RG if Djoker retires? The obvious answer is the correct one in this instance.
 
I wouldn't trust retiring with just 21. It will be surpassed by Nadal still (Yea I think he still has one last big run left in him with all this rest hes getting) and probably a few guys later on down the road as its so easy for top guys to stay dominant now due to the conditions
 

egrorian

Rookie
I think you'll find that retiring at the top is overrated. In that scenario Rafa wouldn't just win 2 more RG, he'd win at least 4 maybe 5, plus a USO and maybe even a Wimbledon. Djokovic is the only one who can stop him and vice versa to some extent. The debate would swing in Nadal's favour pretty quickly I think. You'd be surprised.
Nadal isn't winning 4 or 5 more Slams regardless of whether or not Djokovic is standing in his way. As I see it, if Djokovic wins the CYGS then that puts it all to bed.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal isn't winning 4 or 5 more Slams regardless of whether or not Djokovic is standing in his way. As I see it, if Djokovic wins the CYGS then that puts it all to bed.
You guys are really on that knee jerk bandwagon aren't you?
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Nobody has won 30+ slams and even Novak isn't likely to do it, and that's being extremely cautious. Nobody has broken any "mold." Let's not exaggerate here.

And who stops Rafa at RG if Djoker retires? The obvious answer is the correct one in this instance.
He's talking about age when he says 30+. Djokovic has won like 8 after 30. Personally, I think the ship has sailed for Nadal winning any Slam outside of RG. He's gotten older and will be 35/36 next year, the field has gotten too deep, the younger guys have gotten better on hard and he has declined, and it's been too long since he won on grass so I don't think his confidence is high enough to pull it off again. 2018 was his last chance imo.
 

ibbi

Legend
There are people who don't care now with all that he's doing, so I'm sure there would be people who wouldn't care then either, sure. :-D
 

egrorian

Rookie
You guys are really on that knee jerk bandwagon aren't you?
Not at all. The CYGS is huge, yet some seem keen to downplay it. As for Nadal, evidence of his decline is wholly apparent, yet some still delude themselves that he's going to win another handful of French Opens. No bandwagon jumping, rather I just don't see it.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
He's talking about age when he says 30+. Djokovic has won like 8 after 30. Personally, I think the ship has sailed for Nadal winning any Slam outside of RG. The field has gotten too deep, the younger have gotten better on hard and he has declined, and it's been too long since he won on grass so I don't think his confidence is high enough to pull it off again. 2018 was his last chance imo.
Yeah I misunderstood the first bit. And you might be right about the off clay slams (though I don't completely discount it personally). I stand by Nadal still winning a bunch of RG titles if Novak retires though. And in that instance I think many people here will be surprised both by how quickly the overall debate turns in Nadal's favour and by how relatively quickly Novak is forgotten about once he retires. And that's not me being disrespectful, I think that's the case for any pro athlete which is why I don't subscribe to the idea of retiring on top, or it being some sort of "boss" move.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Not at all. The CYGS is huge, yet some seem keen to downplay it. As for Nadal, evidence of his decline is wholly apparent, yet some still delude themselves that he's going to win another handful of French Opens. No bandwagon jumping, rather I just don't see it.
Nadal can decline on clay in this hypothetical and still win a bunch of RG. I think you're underestimating how bad the young guys are, full stop, but especially on anything other than HC. The CYGS is a phenomenal achievement sure, but it has nothing to do with Nadal's ability to win future slams.
 

tudwell

Legend
I can't really see him retiring. He might need a break after a feat like this – wouldn't be shocked if he doesn't play again until 2022 – but if his body is healthy enough and his game is good enough to win, for the first time in his career, the friggin' calendar slam, I think he'll at least want to see how much more he could win over the next season or two, and then reassess from there.

It's not all about Fedal, but I think he'll also want to see how they recover and come back next year. If they're both done and dusted, the motivation for continuing to dominate might crumble. Either way, I don't see him hanging it up immediately after winning four slams in a row.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah I misunderstood the first bit. And you might be right about the off clay slams (though I don't completely discount it personally). I stand by Nadal still winning a bunch of RG titles if Novak retires though. And in that instance I think many people here will be surprised both by how quickly the overall debate turns in Nadal's favour and by how relatively quickly Novak is forgotten about once he retires. And that's not me being disrespectful, I think that's the case for any pro athlete which is why I don't subscribe to the idea of retiring on top, or it being some sort of "boss" move.
Tennis is weird though. One loss can cause a crack in the armor and it just grows from there. Djokovic beating Nadal at RG was monumental and gives the rest of the field belief. When I say rest of the field, I mean Tsitsipas, Alcaraz, Musetti and Zverev. Those are the only 4 I could see causing him problems outside of Novak. Nadal will be 36 next RG so I can't see him winning a bunch more because of that reason and because Djokovic beat him and showed it can be done. That doesn't mean Nadal is done and won't do it again, but his days of running off 3 or 4 RGs in a row isn't happening again imo.

If Djokovic was to win this USO and retire, he would be the greatest tennis player ever. Only Laver could be placed up there with him because he's the only one with a CYGS. Even if Nadal was able to win 2 more RGs and end up with 22, it wouldn't matter in most people's eyes. The CYGS would be the ultimate game changer.
 

egrorian

Rookie
Nadal can decline on clay in this hypothetical and still win a bunch of RG. I think you're underestimating how bad the young guys are, full stop, but especially on anything other than HC. The CYGS is a phenomenal achievement sure, but it has nothing to do with Nadal's ability to win future slams.
I guess then there is going to be debate should Djokovic win the CYGS but Nadal ends up winning more GS (though I'm not convinced either of these will happen). I hesitate to count Nadal out as that would be foolish but age/injuries/natural decline are going to increasingly be a factor. I think the most likely scenario is he's 50-50 to win one more RG and that's it. I can't know the future of course but I just can't see him still being able to do it not far short of two years on from now at 37, especially given his problems this year.
 

egrorian

Rookie
I can't really see him retiring. He might need a break after a feat like this – wouldn't be shocked if he doesn't play again until 2022 – but if his body is healthy enough and his game is good enough to win, for the first time in his career, the friggin' calendar slam, I think he'll at least want to see how much more he could win over the next season or two, and then reassess from there.

It's not all about Fedal, but I think he'll also want to see how they recover and come back next year. If they're both done and dusted, the motivation for continuing to dominate might crumble. Either way, I don't see him hanging it up immediately after winning four slams in a row.
Neither do I but yes, should Djokovic win the USO, it seems perfectly feasible to think he might think "job done!" and take the rest of the year off, content. But I can't see him actually retiring either.
 

Bumbaliceps

Semi-Pro
That would totally suck, not a boss move, a weak move and definite proof for all his haters that they were right about him. He is not gonna do that, he still has some things to do in this sport.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Tennis is weird though. One loss can cause a crack in the armor and it just grows from there. Djokovic beating Nadal at RG was monumental and gives the rest of the field belief. When I say rest of the field, I mean Tsitsipas, Alcaraz, Mussetti and Zverev. Those are the only 4 I could see causing him problems outside of Novak. Nadal will be 36 next RG so I can't see him winning a bunch more because of that reason and because Djokovic beat him and showed it can be done. That doesn't mean Nadal is done and won't do it again, but his days of running off 3 or 4 RGs in a row isn't happening again imo.

If Djokovic was to win this USO and retire, he would be the greatest tennis player ever. Only Laver could be placed up there with him because he's the only one with a CYGS. Even if Nadal was able to win 2 more RGs and end up with 22, it wouldn't matter in most people's eyes. The CYGS would be the ultimate game changer.
RE: The young guys, I don't trust any of them until they prove it to me. Nadal played well enough to beat Djokovic at this last RG, but it didn't go his way. Not one of the young guys has the game to do it IMO. Not next year and probably not the year after at least. Not unless Nadal is legit injured.

Re: The overall debate, you might be right about the impact of the CYGS, but Nadal ending with more overall slams is still likely to sway some. I'd pick Djoker in that scenario, but if it was 50-50 I wouldn't be surprised. Especially if Nadal somehow ended with 2+ more slams than Novak, though I don't expect that to happen at this point. I'm just thinking up a halfway realistic scenario where Nadal would get some points in the overall debate.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
RE: The young guys, I don't trust any of them until they prove it to me. Nadal played well enough to beat Djokovic at this last RG, but it didn't go his way. Not one of the young guys has the game to do it IMO. Not next year and probably not the year after at least. Not unless Nadal is legit injured.

Re: The overall debate, you might be right about the impact of the CYGS, but Nadal ending with more overall slams is still likely to sway some. I'd pick Djoker in that scenario, but if it was 50-50 I wouldn't be surprised.
After seeing what Tsitsipas brought to RG this year, I have to disagree with this. He's young, strong and getting better every year on clay. His improvement from October 2020 was more than apparent this RG. By next year, he should be even better and he was very close this year. These other guys will also improve. I think Nadal is the favorite for RG next year but he will be challenged.

If it were to happen and Djokovic pulled off this USO, it's not going to be 50-50 though for a multitude of reasons and the weight of the CYGS is just one of them. Djokovic still has more to argue for in his favor starting with weeks at #1.
 

egrorian

Rookie
After seeing what Tsitsipas brought to RG this year, I have to disagree with this. He's young, strong and getting better every year on clay. His improvement from October 2020 was more than apparent this RG. By next year, he should be even better and he was very close this year. These other guys will also improve. I think Nadal is the favorite for RG next year but he will be challenged.

If it were to happen and Djokovic pulled off this USO, it's not going to be 50-50 though for a multitude of reasons and the weight of the CYGS is just one of them. Djokovic still has more to argue for in his favor starting with weeks at #1.
This is how I see it too. At this moment, I'd have Nadal as favourite to win RG 2022, but at the same time I wouldn't be hugely surprised if he doesn't win it (something I could never have said in any previous year).
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
No trolling but a hypothetical. If he retired at the absolute pinnacle with #21. Even if Rafa won 2 more French surely no one would care right?

Like it would be the ultimate boss move. Jordan & Elway in 98/99.
Awsome. boredome finally comes to ..
 

Pheasant

Hall of Fame
CYGS= Stick a fork in it, it’s done. It’s game over, even if Nadal gets 24 in my book.

Djoker=at age 34 would have 21 slam titles and a massive lead in weeks at #1.

The CYGS is the holy grail of seasons. It’s massive and I don’t understand why people are downplaying it.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
This is how I see it too. At this moment, I'd have Nadal as favourite to win RG 2022, but at the same time I wouldn't be hugely surprised if he doesn't win it (something I could never have said in any previous year).
Same here. I really wasn't expecting this RG to end the way it did. It feels like the landscape has now changed. He's still the favorite but I don't think the other guys will go in with zero belief like they once did.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
After seeing what Tsitsipas brought to RG this year, I have to disagree with this. He's young, strong and getting better every year on clay. His improvement from October 2020 was more than apparent this RG. By next year, he should be even better and he was very close this year. These other guys will also improve. I think Nadal is the favorite for RG next year but he will be challenged.

If it were to happen and Djokovic pulled off this USO, it's not going to be 50-50 though for a multitude of reasons and the weight of the CYGS is just one of them. Djokovic still has more to argue for in his favor starting with weeks at #1.
I think Nadal would've beaten Tsits rather easily in the final. So I'm not sure how close he is to Nadal. Djokovic isn't the dominant force Nadal is on clay, hence he needed 5 sets, but I don't think Nadal would've.

The only thing to do with the debate is wait and see I guess.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
I think Nadal would've beaten Tsits rather easily in the final. So I'm not sure how close he is to Nadal. Djokovic isn't the dominant force Nadal is on clay, hence he needed 5 sets, but I don't think Nadal would've.

The only thing to do with the debate is wait and see I guess.
I'm just looking at Tsitsipas' level and his movement in that final, especially in the 1st two sets. Usually, guys don't have that same belief against Nadal though so Tsitsipas probably wouldn't have played as well. With that said, his best surface is clay and he's dangerous.

Yea true, fair enough.
 
The new Big 3--Medvedev, Zverev, Tsitsipas. Alcaraz could sneak in, and Rublev could be the outsider with a chance (like Murray, Del Potro, etc). I'm not convinced yet that Djokovic will win the USO this year. It will definitely be a test. If he does, I still don't think he will retire. There's still to much money to be made. "Billionaire" sounds good in any language.
 

Kralingen

Hall of Fame
The new Big 3--Medvedev, Zverev, Tsitsipas. Alcaraz could sneak in, and Rublev could be the outsider with a chance (like Murray, Del Potro, etc). I'm not convinced yet that Djokovic will win the USO this year. It will definitely be a test. If he does, I still don't think he will retire. There's still to much money to be made. "Billionaire" sounds good in any language.
@Sunny014 lol
 

RaulRamirez

Legend
Obviously, a USO/CYGS would be huge, but I still don't think it would be a knockout punch ..,and even at age 35-plus, count out Rafa at your own peril.
But if Novak retired after winning this (FAR from a done deal, by the way), I'm thinking that Rafa would need 23 slams to equal his career. It's not an exact mathematical formula.
 
I'm just looking at Tsitsipas' level and his movement in that final, especially in the 1st two sets. Usually, guys don't have that same belief against Nadal though so Tsitsipas probably wouldn't have played as well. With that said, his best surface is clay and he's dangerous.

Yea true, fair enough.
Nadal matches up really well with Tsitsipas though. We don’t know how that backhand would hold up over 5 sets. Combined with Tsitsipas’ tendency to choke leads, I don’t think he’ll do much better than Thiem or Wawrinka. Zverev would probably be a bigger threat at RG to Nadal, but none of these guys would have the belief that they can go all the way that Novak has.
 

Imperator

Hall of Fame
Then haters would say he was obsessed with the slam race and never cared about tennis as much as Fedal do.
 

BGod

Legend
And who stops Rafa at RG if Djoker retires? The obvious answer is the correct one in this instance.
He's stopped himself plenty is the answer.

I stand by Nadal still winning a bunch of RG titles if Novak retires though. And in that instance I think many people here will be surprised both by how quickly the overall debate turns in Nadal's favour and by how relatively quickly Novak is forgotten about once he retires. And that's not me being disrespectful, I think that's the case for any pro athlete which is why I don't subscribe to the idea of retiring on top, or it being some sort of "boss" move.
There are exceptions to this though. John Elway with "only" 2 Super Bowls was very much revered among other QBs including those with more Slams like Bradshaw and Aikman. LeBron has not and unlikely to ever surpass the legend of Jordan, and ain't nobody touching Tom Brady, like ever.
 

mwym

Semi-Pro
Right after W21 he (privatly?) said something like 3 more years. At the time he did not know what idiocy he will commit in Tokyo, but 3 more years now cover OG24 in Paris. And he sounded very determined about trying to win all the Slams he can while in good health and enjoying it.

We shall see. Life is unpredictable.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
He's stopped himself plenty is the answer.
WTF does that even mean? He's only pulled out of RG once since 2005. He hasn't "stopped himself" in any way. Are you being intentionally obtuse for some ridiculous reason only known to you?
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
I've had that feeling for awhile that should he win he will retire
Why would he when he plays the Boothsbys and Berrettini's of the world? He's 34 and beating down players a decade his junior. Think about it, he'd be a fool to quit.
 

BlueB

Legend
No ways Nole would retire after einning USO. With his favorite slam coming up and chance for 5 in a row, that no one has done in OE, plus the 10th AO, simply no way.
 

MadariKatu

Professional
Honestly, at this point, I feel like if he does win the USO, he has another chance at a second cygs next year. Pressure would be off, and his aura would be way too big for the youngsters. Not that it'd be likely, but he'd have a chance. After all, both Roger and Rafa seem to be out of the picture.
 

ND-13

Hall of Fame
LOL, you guys with all the weird calculations as to how any each player need to win to be decisively called GOAT , are just plain crazy

There is no single GOAT, no one will ever forget or remove Laver, Borg, Pete, Roger. Rafa and Novak in any conversation
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal matches up really well with Tsitsipas though. We don’t know how that backhand would hold up over 5 sets. Combined with Tsitsipas’ tendency to choke leads, I don’t think he’ll do much better than Thiem or Wawrinka. Zverev would probably be a bigger threat at RG to Nadal, but none of these guys would have the belief that they can go all the way that Novak has.
Wawrinka's ballbashing has no chance against Nadal on Chatrier. Thiem tried to do the same thing and failed miserably each time. I think Thiem became a smarter player in 2020 but then burned out in early 2021 and never brought his better and more strategic style of play to clay. I think Tsitsipas plays smarter with more margins and is more patient. I would like to see them play at RG because I do think he would test Nadal.
 

topher

Hall of Fame
I think you'll find that retiring at the top is overrated. In that scenario Rafa wouldn't just win 2 more RG, he'd win at least 4 maybe 5, plus a USO and maybe even a Wimbledon. Djokovic is the only one who can stop him and vice versa to some extent. The debate would swing in Nadal's favour pretty quickly I think. You'd be surprised.
Recency bias is very real. I won’t be surprised if in a few years after the Big 3 retire, JMac will be talking about whoever the new hot player is like he’s the new GOAT. All is forgotten eventually and humans can rationalize anything.

That said, all this is wishful thinking. Novak will not go out this early, he’s gonna need like 25 slams to lose motivation.
 
Top