If Novak wins FO, is he top 3 all-time on clay?

[Nadalgaenger]

I say there is a decent argument to be made that Novak will go down as third best clay court player of all time if he wins the FO.

He has dominated clay Masters events even if his dominance has been overshadowed by Rafa. If he weren't playing in Rafa's era, he'd probably have 4-5 FO and an absurd amount of clay titles.

His major competition for top 3 are Lendl and Vilas. On paper, those guys have sexier stats, but the key point is that they DID NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH NADAL THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS!

I'd say that Djokovic is easily top 5 without the second FO and is top 3 on clay if he wins.

Win/Loss Index | ATP Tour | Tennis

In-depth data analysis of the performance of ATP World Tour players. Featuring year-to-date, 52-week, and career data for the top players in men's professional tennis.

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[fox]

WOULD / SHOULD / IF
These must be your favourite words right?

 

[weakera]

I've pointed out in the past how high his clay win % would be if not for Nadal. He's probably 3rd on clay anyways, although most would argue that Federer has a higher peak level on clay.

 

[NoleFam]

Not top 3 but top 5 definitely.

 

[Lleytonstation]

Fed could say the same. Maybe not so much for masters, but for slams for sure.

 

[TheNachoMan]

1. Nadal
2. Guga
3. Fed

Fed would’ve won 5+ RGs if it wasn’t for the greedy bull

 

[fox]

I've pointed out in the past how high his clay win % would be if not for Nadal. He's probably 3rd on clay anyways, although most would argue that Federer has a higher peak level on clay.

Lost to peak Wawrinka and Thiem too.

 

[PeoplesChamp]

Too much weight on Corona/weak era achievements.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

WOULD / SHOULD / IF
These must be your favourite words right?

Your favorite words must be "double account", Mr. "Rookie"

 

[Fabresque]

He already is. Top 3 clay players OAT are

1. Nadal



2. Djokovic
3. Federer

If Nadal didn’t exist numbers 2 and 3 would dominate on clay no problemo.

 

[weakera]

Lost to peak Wawrinka and Thiem too.

Thiem could conceivably claim that 3 spot if he fulfills his potential.

 

[weakera]

He already is. Top 3 clay players OAT are

1. Nadal



2. Djokovic
3. Federer

If Nadal didn’t exist numbers 2 and 3 would dominate on clay no problemo.

*insert Borg laughing gif*

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Fed could say the same. Maybe not so much for masters, but for slams for sure.

Djokovic has been better than Fed on clay. Look at the win percentages. Novak is top 5 all-time. Fed is not top 10. Fed has never won Rome. Novak just won his 5th Rome title.
He's also done much better than Fed against the clay GOAT.

But yes, Fed is top 5 in my book and maybe top 3 without Nadal in the picture.

 

[TMF]

Greatest clay courter in the bubble.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Not top 3 but top 5 definitely.

Who is ahead of him?

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

With 2 RGs of course!

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Yeah if he get this RG then I defo agree. I hope Novak does it!

 

[fox]

Djokovic has been better than Fed on clay. Look at the win percentages. Novak is top 5 all-time. Fed is not top 10. Fed has never won Rome. Novak just won his 5th Rome title.
He's also done much better than Fed against the clay GOAT.

But yes, Fed is top 5 in my book and maybe top 3 without Nadal in the picture.

But whose fault it is that the tour is so weak now? Today Djokovic had 15 BH UEs in the first set alone, +20UEs together and still won it and it was in the final. So the level is rather low. He is great at collecting titles when there is nobody to challenge him but he lost at RG with Federer, Wawrinka and Thiem so for me he is worse than all of them.

 

[NoleFam]

Who is ahead of him?

Nadal, Borg, Guga and probably Lendl.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Nadal, Borg, Guga and probably Lendl.

Career win percentage on clay:
Djokovic 79.6% (5th all time in and had to compete against Nadal and Fed his whole career)
Kuerten 69.9% (35th all time, just ahead of Murray and Zverev He never had to go through Nadal at RG and beat baby pre-prime Clayderer

I'll concede that Lendl has him statistically. But Ivan never had to deal with Rafa!

 

[NoleFam]

Career win percentage on clay:
Djokovic 79.6% (5th all time in and had to compete against Nadal and Fed his whole career)
Kuerten 69.9% (35th all time, just ahead of Murray and Zverev He never had to go through Nadal at RG and beat baby pre-prime Clayderer

I'll concede that Lendl has him statistically. But Ivan never had to deal with Rafa!

He has his argument for 3rd if he wins but it wouldn't be set in stone I think.

 

[PerilousPear]

If he wins it over Nadal, yes. Otherwise no.

 

[6august]

Still far behind Nadal Borg Rosewall.

 

[fox]

So basically if Djokovic plays 12 more years and win 12 RGs and Rafa retires now Novak will be better than him?
You guys have awesome logic

 

[abmk]

amazing how Wilander tends to be forgotten in these discussions.
He was Lendl's main rival on clay , has 3 FOs and multiple master level events.

 

[fox]

amazing how Wilander tends to be forgotten in these discussions.
He was Lendl's main rival on clay and has 3 FOs and multiple master level events.

But the problem is most Djokovic fans know tennis only past 2010 so it is hard to argue about anything

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Djokovic might just be ready to dethrone the king of clay in RG this year. It would be epic to see!

 

[daggerman]

But whose fault it is that the tour is so weak now? Today Djokovic had 15 BH UEs in the first set alone, +20UEs together and still won it and it was in the final. So the level is rather low. He is great at collecting titles when there is nobody to challenge him but he lost at RG with Federer, Wawrinka and Thiem so for me he is worse than all of them.

If he wins, there is "nobody to challenge him." If he loses, then the player who beats him is unequivocally better than him.

Amazing logic. Just say you don't like the guy and keep it moving. Discrediting his tennis skill is just a dishonest position.

 

[beard]

I've pointed out in the past how high his clay win % would be if not for Nadal. He's probably 3rd on clay anyways, although most would argue that Federer has a higher peak level on clay.

Fed's peak... famous mythological creature...

 

[fox]

If he wins, there is "nobody to challenge him." If he loses, then the player who beats him is unequivocally better than him.

Amazing logic.

Actually he has many titles where he beat Fed, Nadal and other great in shape guys. But if we talk about RG he has only 1 title so why we discuss whether he is Clay goat? Also on clay he got defeated by many guys. For example this year in Rome he did not face any top10 player so what great achievement it is?

 

[beard]

Djokovic has been better than Fed on clay. Look at the win percentages. Novak is top 5 all-time. Fed is not top 10. Fed has never won Rome. Novak just won his 5th Rome title.
He's also done much better than Fed against the clay GOAT.

But yes, Fed is top 5 in my book and maybe top 3 without Nadal in the picture.

Fed has never won MC too...

 

[fox]

Fed has never won MC too...

And Novak still couldn’t defeat him in RG

 

[Tennis_Freak99]

And Novak still couldn’t defeat him in RG

RG 2012 says hello

 

[NoleFam]

But whose fault it is that the tour is so weak now? Today Djokovic had 15 BH UEs in the first set alone, +20UEs together and still won it and it was in the final. So the level is rather low. He is great at collecting titles when there is nobody to challenge him but he lost at RG with Federer, Wawrinka and Thiem so for me he is worse than all of them.

Djokovic is worse on clay than players he has beaten multiple times and achieved more than them? How's that for logic.

 

[beard]

And Novak still couldn’t defeat him in RG

But he did, rookie...

Anyway that has nothing to with Fed impotence at MC and ROMA...

 

[fox]

RG 2012 says hello

In 2011. 2012 only got him even. Bit you guys state he is better so should have positive record huh?

 

[abmk]

At RG, number of good in-form players beaten :
Federer : 2 (2009 delpo, 2011 djokovic)
Djokovic : 0

 

[Tennis_Freak99]

In 2011. 2012 only got him even. Bit you guys state he is better so should have positive record huh?

Tell Roger not to skip clay events and have the ability to reach the late stages to even get a chance to play Nole

 

[fox]

Djokovic is worse on clay than players he has beaten multiple times and achieved more than them? How's that for logic.

Yes I assume peak level of Novak is lower than Wawrinka or Thiem because they beat him at RG final stages. I don’t care what happened in Rome quarterfinals and other matches. Slams are important.
We are not asessing Novak career here just clay performance. Of course in general Novak is better player than both of 2 but not on clay.

 

[abmk]

Career win percentage on clay:
Djokovic 79.6% (5th all time in and had to compete against Nadal and Fed his whole career)
Kuerten 69.9% (35th all time, just ahead of Murray and Zverev He never had to go through Nadal at RG and beat baby pre-prime Clayderer

I'll concede that Lendl has him statistically. But Ivan never had to deal with Rafa!

No, Kuerten just beat :
Muster, Kafelnikov, Medvedev and Bruguera in RG 97
Kafelnikov, Ferrero, Norman in RG 00
Kafelnikov, Ferrero, Corretja in RG 01

# of in-form good players djokovic has beaten at RG = 0
Wake the hell up

Not saying all the names I mentioned for Kuerten were in-form , but all those 3 draws were well above average in toughness. the 97 one in particular was brutal.

 

[fox]

No, Kuerten just beat :
Muster, Kafelnikov, Medvedev and Bruguera in RG 97
Kafelnikov, Ferrero, Norman in RG 00
Kafelnikov, Ferrero, Corretja in RG 01

# of in-form good players djokovic has beaten at RG = 0
Wake the hell up

Not saying all the names I mentioned for Kuerten were in-form , but all those 3 draws were well above average in toughness. the 97 one in particular was brutal.

And Djokovic beat Ruud and Schwartzman is it not better ?

Sorry guys but please be objective. You can win a tournament beating nobody from top20 and you can beat 3 top10 players. Of course not his fault this happened. It is not the same. Please watch Rome Fedal final or Nadal Coria match. And how it relates to Djoko Schwartzman match.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

If he wins it over Nadal, yes. Otherwise no.

interesting...of course everyone will say that Nadal would not be in top form, and they wouldn't be wrong if Rome is any indication...

 

[Nadalgaenger]

No, Kuerten just beat :
Muster, Kafelnikov, Medvedev and Bruguera in RG 97
Kafelnikov, Ferrero, Norman in RG 00
Kafelnikov, Ferrero, Corretja in RG 01

# of in-form good players djokovic has beaten at RG = 0
Wake the hell up

Not saying all the names I mentioned for Kuerten were in-form , but all those 3 draws were well above average in toughness. the 97 one in particular was brutal.

"Wake the hell up"??? My argument is actually based on win percentages on clay.
And in 2012 Novak had to beat Tsonga and Fed just to get a chance to lock horns with the clay GOAT. Tsonga, Fed, Nadal is a MUCH tougher trio than ny of those you have up there...

2012 French Open – Men's singles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[fox]

"Wake the hell up"??? My argument is actually based on win percentages on clay.
And in 2012 Novak had to beat Tsonga and Fed just to get a chance to lock horns with the clay GOAT. Tsonga, Fed, Nadal is a MUCH tougher trio than ny of those you have up there...

2012 French Open – Men's singles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

but he did not win so what is the point?
Tsonga is so great player really?
It is hard to compare such things. Azarenka has 2 GS while Kerber has 3 but I would never say that German is better player.

 

[NoleFam]

Yes I assume peak level of Novak is lower than Wawrinka or Thiem because they beat him at RG final stages. I don’t care what happened in Rome quarterfinals and other matches. Slams are important.
We are not asessing Novak career here just clay performance. Of course in general Novak is better player than both of 2 but not on clay.

As if Thiem beat the best version of Novak last year, and this excludes the fact that Djokovic destroyed him there in 2016.

You can create peak level this or that but neither are close to Djokovic's achievements on clay which are what matter.

 

[Third Serve]

At RG, number of good in-form players beaten :
Federer : 2 (2009 delpo, 2011 djokovic)
Djokovic : 0

Does Tsonga 2012 count?

 

[abmk]

"Wake the hell up"??? My argument is actually based on win percentages on clay.
And in 2012 Novak had to beat Tsonga and Fed just to get a chance to lock horns with the clay GOAT. Tsonga, Fed, Nadal is a MUCH tougher trio than ny of those you have up there...

2012 French Open – Men's singles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

dude, tsonga played well for 2 sets and half. that resulted in djokovic having to save 4 MPs. (
was below par for rest of it.)

federer played sh*te in RG 2012 semi. I said in-form good player

nadal final is obviously the toughest, but djokovic didn't win.

leave aside nadal (even 2014 RG final Nadal), djokovic had 2 other chances to beat in-form good players - fed in RG 11 and stan in RG 15. lost both in 4 sets.

 

[abmk]

Does Tsonga 2012 count?

tsonga played well for 2.5 sets. 2nd half of 2nd set to end of 4th set.

was below par for rest of it.

not quite there IMO.

 

[Third Serve]

tsonga played well for 2.5 sets. 2nd half of 2nd set to end of 4th set.

was below par for rest of it.

not quite there IMO.

Murray 2015 at a similar level, then?

 

[Start da Game]

I say there is a decent argument to be made that Novak will go down as third best clay court player of all time if he wins the FO.

He has dominated clay Masters events even if his dominance has been overshadowed by Rafa. If he weren't playing in Rafa's era, he'd probably have 4-5 FO and an absurd amount of clay titles.

His major competition for top 3 are Lendl and Vilas. On paper, those guys have sexier stats, but the key point is that they DID NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH NADAL THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS!

I'd say that Djokovic is easily top 5 without the second FO and is top 3 on clay if he wins.

Win/Loss Index | ATP Tour | Tennis

In-depth data analysis of the performance of ATP World Tour players. Featuring year-to-date, 52-week, and career data for the top players in men's professional tennis.

www.atptour.com

he is not even top 5 on clay even if he miraculously wins another roland garros, sorry but i disagree with you........