tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Perhaps you didnt read the part where i said 'when not making the finals' ?
If Novak wins USO 2014, then he is better than Rafa on 3 majors
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Perhaps you didnt read the part where i said 'when not making the finals' ?
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
6 important titles to 5? Doesn't work that way, you can't throw them all in one pool. Nadal has won the important title twice and Novak once. It becomes even more significant when you consider that Nadal beat Novak to win both his USO titles.
As for WIM, at the end of the day, Nadal has more silverware than Novak. To me that means he has achieved more there. Nothing will convince me otherwise until Novak gets another WIM title or finishes with more RU trophies than Nadal whilst keeping equal title wins there.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Perhaps you don't understand the part where that WHOLE post ignores when he has made the finals.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Do you mean you don't find my posting arrogant?I must say I like this change in you since you got called out last week
thanks Michael!
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
My explanation is he got beat on the day both times. What's your explanation for Novak losing 2 US Open finals? Did the court get slower on those days?
The USO h2h matters most.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Do you mean you don't find my posting arrogant?
thanks Michael!
Lol yes, you're being very reasonable
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Way too much love in my heart to have hate for Nadal or anyone for that matter MN. Life is just too short and I ain't got time for it.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
I think this is quite true!
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
It sure does but how is that related to court speed? I don't see it, sorry. Cincy is faster than USO, so according to your theory Rafa should have beaten Novak there and he should be the one with the most finals.
SpicyCurry1990
Hall of Fame
Come on now, you obviously realize he was not saying Nadal at Wimbledon = Sampras at the FO. He was saying outside of his 5 best results, Nadal has Sampras level results at Wimbledon with only 1 second week appearance, while Nole has three which you choose to ignore.
You really need to stop thinking that this is an argument of 3>5.
Its not like they both played 5 Wimbledons with Nadal getting 2 titles, 5 Finals and Nole getting 2 titles, 3 Finals. If that were the case you would be 100% correct.
There is a perfectly valid reasoning to state why Djoker is better at Wimbledon and it is backed by a very well respected objective statistic (win % at the tournament) and it needs no adjustment because both players have played in the exact same # of Wimbledons and are almost exactly the same age and the fact that Nadal started 1 year earlier is balanced by him skipping the 09 tournament.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Oh cut the crap! LOL you spend most of your time on this site taking shots at Nadal.
I wouldn't be surprised if you spent more time in Nadal match threads at Wimbledon then you did Novak's. In fact, I can't remember you being as active in the Wimbledon final thread as you were in Nadal's matches...
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
It's related to court speed because the fast HC swing is categorised as Canada masters + Cinci + USO + Shanghai
When you compile the results Nadal is ahead. You can't just base the fast HC greatness on Cinci alone. In terms of achievements, having 1 Cinci title is > having none, despite the 4 RU's Novak has.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
The logic for fanboys is
'Only Peaks count, troughs are to be ignored'.
'Only H2H matters, consistency is crap'.
'Single surface domination' is same as 'Multi Surface Domination'.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
My Internet connection was down for most of Wimbledon.
Didn't seem that way in Nadal match threads :lol:
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
SpicyCurry1990
Hall of Fame
Not every Nole fan is a Rafa hater. I have the utmost respect for Rafa and consider him indisputably top 3 in the open era and top 7 all time.
Rafa fans need to stop acting like anytime someone makes an objectively valid case for another player being better than them in some area, it is simply because they are "haters."
There are certain stats that you guys give greater weight to because it favors your player. I have always maintained the exact same evaluation system for all players throughout all time. Its not like I am newly introducing these metrics to make an argument for Nole over Nadal on grass.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
It was down from the first Saturday to the Saturday just gone.
Tennis_Bum
Professional
Still, he needs to win the French at some time during his career.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
How convenient...
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
No, he does not have to - for being considered the better player in 3 of 4 majors.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
That was because peak Fed was winning the universe.
Here we have it folks, the finest example of a delusional *******.
Tell me how many RG and clay masters titles did peak Federer win?
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Amazing. Everyone else can take shortcuts, Nadal can win everything and still not get credit.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Federer's won bugger all RG titles. Grass boy needs to start winning some before we can start goat talk.
Clay boy has at least won multiple majors on each surface...
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
That's the problem I've always had with The Order. Any time you say something that doesn't put Nadal in the best of lights he accuses you of being a hater which I think is really unfair.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Believe me it was far from convenient. I was starting to get withdrawal symptons after a couple of days!
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
That is 'dirt slam' , right ? Fed does not care. And moreover, I think we are better off staying on topic.
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veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Er no. If you compile wins/finals for those 4 events you find: 6-8 for Djoko and 6-2 for Nadal and you'll find exactly what I was saying: knife edge between the 2 in terms or results (6/6), better consistency on hard for Novak (8/2).
On a side note, Shanghai has absolutely nothing to do with summer hard court, it's part of the Asian swing. So, absolutely 0 reason to bundle those together. I just went along with what you suggested...
I could do the same for the summer hard: it would yield: 4-8 Djoko and 6-1 Nadal and that would make your point much stronger (you see, I'm helping your cause after all
) More success to Nadal (6/4) but it would help mine too by the same token
(even bigger gap in consistency to Djoko's advantage - 8/1).
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Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Federer's won RG what are you talking about?! :shock:
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
If the discussion is one of who is the better overall player, I would say that Novak has to win about 3-4 more majors including a FO.
But the topic on hand is entirely different.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
That would put him at 10 or 11. Maybe I could take you seriously if you were taking 12 or 13, then sure.
it's silly to say this. I'd argue they're about the same at Wim with Rafa miles ahead at RG and Djokovic metres ahead at Oz. At US Rafa is ahead and if Djoko wins then he's got to be level not ahead else Rafa is still ahead at Wim. The minor percentage differences between them off clay at US and Wim are a joke. They are minor almost indentical. Djokovic is slightly slightly better than Nadal off clay. Nadal is miles better on clay. That's the narrative. 7 vs 5 off clay. Hardly dominance. 9 vs 0 on clay. Clay is not a legitimate surface though or so the detractors say. And I say this as someone who wants Nadal to lose. Just don't need to twist the reality. Imagine if there were 2 clay slams!!!!! Nadal is better than Djokovic in a career assessment. It's obvious. All the players think he's the hardest to beat.
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Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Graf won 4 Slams more than Navratilova but there are still many people who put Martina ahead of her, hence my saying yesterday that Slams aren't the be all and end all.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Agree, he needs at least 4 more to begin conversation. I have a feeling he may do that and perhaps be more versatile in terms of the distribution , say like
5-1-3-3 ?
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
They can choose to do what they want, but 4 slams is too many. 2? Sure. It's nobody's fault but Novak's that he's so behind. I know it stinks, but he's not in any REAL conversation with less than 12 slams.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Well you have to admit that 7 Slams + 3 WTFs certainly closes the gap a bit more.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
He might not necessarily need to win as many Slams as Sampras to be considered greater.
xFedal
Legend
He will win Minimum 2 More Aussie Opens and He will win French open While Nadal is still playing and when Nadal is retired Nole will domolish the tour at RG and winning at least 2 French Opens after Nadals retirement and 1 more Wimbledon and 2 more US opens.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
And now you see what the current Fedal war is about.
xFedal
Legend
Your right 6 or 7 Australian Opens is what am Expecting and then he will Most likely have double or triple career slam. If he wins US open this year then Nole is on Lock for the double career slam. Whos going to win French Open when Nads is not there Nole his far too consistent and too good on clay to lose to a nobody other than Nads.
xFedal
Legend
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
I don't see Djokovic winning the FO anymore after losing this year.
xFedal
Legend
Extra motivation doing this for the child jnr Nole
Djokovic is getting very close this was the 1st time he won the 1st set against Rafa at French and he also has taken him to 5 sets there only 1 thing left and thats Nole to win this time. Nadal is declining quicker than everyone else.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
I love how we traped Djoko2011 (wink)
Little does he know the whole point of this thread was just for that
:lol:
xFedal
Legend
Little does he know the whole point of this thread was just for that
Awwrhh I feel for the cute little monster x:-|
irishnadalfan1983
Hall of Fame
I'd expect better form you.
So let's take away Djokos AO wins and Fed's Wimby wins. People
Use Nadals 9 French Open wins as a criticism.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
I also expected better from you before. Nobody's perfect I guess.
SpicyCurry1990
Hall of Fame
Its not just about the raw #s, its about the distribution plus other attributes. If he got to 11 by winning 3 AO + FO, no he would not be in the conversation.
But if he got to 11 by winning 1 more of each slam, he could be in the conversation depending on other factors. First Nadal would need to win no more slams.
Second, Djok needs to add a cincy to become the only holder of the masters slam. Third, Djok needs to surpass Nadal in both YE #1s (so win 2 more), as well as weeks ranked #1, win another WTF while Nadal stays at 0, and add at least 4 more masters shields.
That would make the slam totals:
5-1-3-2
vs
1-9-2-2
Nole would be indisputably better at the USO and Wimb and his FO record would surpass Nadal's AO record and he would be the Solo King of Oz to match Nadal being Solo King of FO.
Beyond that he would have more YE#1s, weeks at #1, the masters slam lone achievement, be #2 all time in Masters Shields, and have a 4-0 WTF lead. I think it would be close, but I would rate Nole greater with that resume. Winning the 2016 Olympic Gold to be the only man to win all 9 masters, 4 slams, WTF, and OG (the top 15 titles) and surpass Nadal in the head to head would make it a very strong edge to Nole. Adding a 12th slam (as long as its non-AO) to either become the only double career slam winner, surpass Nadal in majors won at all 3 non-RG majors, or become solo-4th place holder at the biggest tournament in the world (Wimbledon) would seal the deal.
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