If Queen's were to turn into a Masters, which one should it replace?

[Atennisone]

I think it's a fair discussion whether Queen's should be a Masters.

I don't see anything but tradition, that could argue for there to be 0 Masters on Grass.

But if Queen's became a Masters which one do you think it should replace, and you don't necessarily have to think about schedule at the moment. I mean for example if Shanghai Rolex was replaced with Queen's, Queen's would of course not be held in October, and therefore a Masters would be played in June, but 1 less would be played in October.

And no I don't think ATP will make 10 Masters and I wouldn't prefer it over 9. So that ain't not a poll option.

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

Halle is the fifth slam

 

[Towny]

I would pick Halle over Queen's to become the grass masters but in any case, Paris would be the one to go for me. Poorly attended by top players and not the most exciting event. Make Shanghai the only masters after the USO. It will seem less superfluous than Paris.

 

[Towny]

Halle is the fifth slam

Sixth. You forgot about the Real Slam

 

[Atennisone]

I would pick Halle over Queen's to become the grass masters but in any case, Paris would be the one to go for me. Poorly attended by top players and not the most exciting event. Make Shanghai the only masters after the USO. It will seem less superfluous than Paris.

Halle. Are you kidding? I thought you was a fair poster.

 

[Towny]

Halle. Are you kidding? I thought you was a fair poster.

Nothing to do with Federer. Halle has a higher capacity than Queen's so would be more fit for hosting a masters. Plus, Germany doesn't have any top tournaments after Hamburg was demoted. England will always have Wimbledon and has had the WTF for a decade, even if that is coming to an end. I say this as someone who is English

 

[Atennisone]

I would pick Halle over Queen's to become the grass masters but in any case, Paris would be the one to go for me. Poorly attended by top players and not the most exciting event. Make Shanghai the only masters after the USO. It will seem less superfluous than Paris.

Winners of Halle:
Federer - 8 Wimbledon titles
Coric - 0 GS QF's
Mayer - 48% win rate
Haas - Best GS result a SF
Kohlschreiber - 1 GS QF
Hewitt - 2 GS wins

Winners of Queen's:
Cilic - 1 GS win
López - 4 GS QF
Murray - 3 GS wins
Dimitrov - 1 WTF win
Nadal - 2 WB wins
Querrey - 1 GS SF

Besides Federer and Hewitt, Halle's winners are not really that well players. Compare for example the last two finals.

Nothing to do with Federer. Halle has a higher capacity than Queen's so would be more fit for hosting a masters. Plus, Germany doesn't have any top tournaments after Hamburg was demoted. England will always have Wimbledon and has had the WTF for a decade, even if that is coming to an end. I say this as someone who is English

It is though a fair argument that it would be strange if London had a Masters then quickly after a GS. But Halle is just not a prestigious tournament enough to be a Masters.

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

Winners of Halle:
Federer - 8 Wimbledon titles
Coric - 0 GS QF's
Mayer - 48% win rate
Haas - Best GS result a SF
Kohlschreiber - 1 GS QF
Hewitt - 2 GS wins

Winners of Queen's:
Cilic - 1 GS win
López - 4 GS QF
Murray - 3 GS wins
Dimitrov - 1 WTF win
Nadal - 2 WB wins
Querrey - 1 GS SF

Besides Federer and Hewitt, Halle's winners are not really that well players. Compare for example the last two finals.


It is though a fair argument that it would be strange if London had a Masters then quickly after a GS. But Halle is just not a prestigious tournament enough to be a Masters.

One could argue you didn’t pick Halle because Federer won it 8 times

 

[Atennisone]

One could argue you didn’t pick Halle because Federer won it 8 times

But that would be stupid. There is no competition in Halle.

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

But that would be stupid. There is no competition in Halle.

There’s no competition at the French Open either. That’s sounds like an everyone else problem not a Fed/Nadal problem. There’s no competition at queens either lol

I’d be interested to see a poll in where people would want an m1000 on grass. I think there would be quite a few Halle votes.

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

I would pick Halle over Queen's to become the grass masters but in any case, Paris would be the one to go for me. Poorly attended by top players and not the most exciting event. Make Shanghai the only masters after the USO. It will seem less superfluous than Paris.

Nothing to do with Federer. Halle has a higher capacity than Queen's so would be more fit for hosting a masters. Plus, Germany doesn't have any top tournaments after Hamburg was demoted. England will always have Wimbledon and has had the WTF for a decade, even if that is coming to an end. I say this as someone who is English

I wanna see a poll on this now because I didn’t realize Halle as an m1000 was a controversial opinion

 

[Atennisone]

There’s no competition at the French Open either. That’s sounds like an everyone else problem not a Fed/Nadal problem.

I’d be interested to see a poll in where people would want an m1000 on grass. I think there would be quite a few Halle votes.

RG has had matches like 2013 RG SF, 2015 RG F, 2011 RG SF, 2014 RG F which all was quite close or good. And RG is a GS. The problem with Halle is that Federer is almost the only top 10 player who competes, and that is not the case at RG. Also Halle doesn't have as much history as Queen's. Halle is 26 years old while Queen's is 129, and that does mean something.

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

RG has had matches like 2013 RG SF, 2015 RG F, 2011 RG SF, 2014 RG F which all was quite close or good. And RG is a GS. The problem with Halle is that Federer is almost the only top 10 player who competes, and that is not the case at RG. Also Halle doesn't have as much history as Queen's. Halle is 26 years old while Queen's is 129, and that does mean something.

But if you made either a 1000 the field would be beefed up given the point increase. So I don’t think that’s one of the problems it’d have.

 

[Subway Tennis]

It definitely shouldn't be a m1000, but shouldn't be downgraded either.

Keep it as an atp500.

 

[Atennisone]

But if you made either a 1000 the field would be beefed up given the point increase. So I don’t think that’s one of the problems it’d have.

It's just better to have a more traditional tournament become a Masters I'd think. It's like discussing whether Cordoba Open or Rotterdam Open should become a Masters.

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

I’m not saying Halle has some super elite field. It doesn’t. But neither does Queen’s really.

Hell as it is clay and grass both don’t have enough legit competition in the slams far less the lesser events

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

It's just better to have a more traditional tournament become a Masters I'd think. It's like discussing whether Cordoba Open or Rotterdam Open should become a Masters.

I can agree that is a relevant factor. Age/Prestige.

Does London need another big event though?

I always tended to like Halle more because of what @Towny already said.

 

[Atennisone]

I can agree that is a relevant factor. Age/Prestige.

Does London need another big event though?

I always tended to like Halle more because of what @Towny already said.

I agree that Halle need a masters more than London do, but still I don't think it beats the prestige importance.

 

[Towny]

I wanna see a poll on this now because I didn’t realize Halle as an m1000 was a controversial opinion

Done

 

[Mainad]

Winners of Halle:
Federer - 8 Wimbledon titles
Coric - 0 GS QF's
Mayer - 48% win rate
Haas - Best GS result a SF
Kohlschreiber - 1 GS QF
Hewitt - 2 GS wins

Winners of Queen's:
Cilic - 1 GS win
López - 4 GS QF
Murray - 3 GS wins
Dimitrov - 1 WTF win
Nadal - 2 WB wins
Querrey - 1 GS SF

Besides Federer and Hewitt, Halle's winners are not really that well players. Compare for example the last two finals.

It is though a fair argument that it would be strange if London had a Masters then quickly after a GS. But Halle is just not a prestigious tournament enough to be a Masters.

Don't forget that Hewitt is also a Queen's champion and won more titles there (4) than he did at Halle (1).

The weight of history and prestige clearly favours Queen's whereas Halle only really rose to prominence because of Federer. That said, I am sympathetic to the argument that Germany deserves a top tournament again which it hasn't had since Hamburg got controversially demoted 10 years ago. Just wish it wouldn't be at the expense of Queen's though.

 

[Atennisone]

Don't forget that Hewitt is also a Queen's champion and won more titles there (4) than he did at Halle (1).

The weight of history and prestige clearly favours Queen's whereas Halle only really rose to prominence because of Federer. That said, I am sympathetic to the argument that Germany deserves a top tournament again which it hasn't had since Hamburg got controversially demoted 10 years ago. Just wish it wouldn't be at the expense of Queen's though.

That is very well said.

 

[MeatTornado]

Neither Queens or Halle are big enough so it'll never happen anyway.

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

I agree that Halle need a masters more than London do, but still I don't think it beats the prestige importance.

That's fair. I honestly don't know which one I'd elevate to a 1000. I've always thought Grass should have at least one M1000, but I will admit I don't really know the two well enough to make an educated decision.

I'll admit right now I didn't know Queens was that old. That's interesting.

I think the field argument would just be splitting hairs though. Too negligible a difference really.

 

[Winners or Errors]

The challenge is that killing either 500 would be sad. I know they're only 500s, but Queen's has the tradition and Halle is just a nicer tournament. I'd vote for Halle, too, if it came to that. I suspect either tournament would protest their removal from the schedule.

 

[Federer and Del Potro]

Anyways to answer your original question OP I do think if I had to axe one it'd probably be Paris.

 

[Third Serve]

The Real Slam got a vote?

 

[Lleytonstation]

Why not just make it an even 10 masters, move Halle back a week and make it a masters, keep Queens a 500 at the same time. Locations make sense, timing makes sense, except for maybe some 250's like Stuttgart getting hurt.

 

[nochweiterroger]

Queens is already a much more important tournament than Halle.
The problem with Paris is that a grass 1000 has to be BEFORE Wimbledon, i.e. during the (minuscule) grass season. It therefore follows that one of MC Madrid, Rome would have to go.
But why shouldn't or can't there be 10 Masters? The rules and conventions of tennis aren't like the tablets of Moses.

 

[Sport]

As a Nadal fan I do like the idea of Queens and Suttgart being Masters 1000 on grass.

Now if we defend Masters 1000 on grass, we should also defend the ATP finals rotating of surface (indoor grass, indoor clay or indoor hard) each year.

Otherwise, we would be displaying a double standard logic, by which surface distribution is only defended when it favors Federer.

 

[ibbi]

Clearly the one to replace is either Bercy because the top guys have abandoned it, or Monte Carlo because it's been downgraded. Given Monte Carlo's long history, and the fact that it's not clay courts that are consuming the game but hard courts it would make more sense to replace Bercy.

Of course in spite of Queens history and classy old school prestigey thing it really should be Halle that gets that upgraded status. We already have Wimbledon here in this country, we'll have had the Finals for over a decade by the time it leaves, how about giving someone else a chance? Last year's Queen's attendance was I believe about 52,000. In Halle it was about 115,000. Germany should get the 1000 status.

 

[Deleted member 743545]

Madrid or Paris

 

[Aussie Darcy]

Wanted to pick Paris as it’s just too close to the WTF and one Masters is enough after the USO but I went for Monte Carlo as it’s also poorly attended by the top players and there’s too many clay Masters.

 

[Centrius]

Queen's doesn't need an upgrade.

 

[Luka888]

Madrid or Paris

I was just going to say the same thing. The OP asked a hypothetical question though. I was never a big fan of Madrid. Paris has RG, so not so sure about Paris. But, yeah we agree here

 

[EloQuent]

I understand why some people respect Queen's over Halle. But the UK can't have both a slam and a masters, so soon after having WTF. Germany deserves it more, especially when they had a masters taken from them not long ago.

I'd love for more balance which means taking away a clay, probably MC. But Paris is the obvious choice.

Really Paris should be canceled and Madrid revert to Indoor HC.

 

[Lukhas]

Despite it not being very realistic, I wouldn't mind keeping both Queens and Halle as they are, and converting Monte-Carlo to grass. Then you would shave the first week of the European clay swing and add it to the grass season.

 

[Artificial Grass]

Definitely Paris-Bercy. The atmosphere is bad, nobody and their mother seems to care about it, and the tour doesn't need another indoor hard Masters when the WTF is already played on indoor hard.

I see some people have thrown out Monte Carlo as a possible option. Are you people nuts? It's the most beautiful setting on tour and a tournament with one of the longest histories. I don't even get why it's the only Masters that is not mandatory. Seriously, does anyone know why that is?

 

[boredone3456]

Keep everything as it is. The spring/summer is already loaded from May to August you have 3 majors and several masters already.

Also...the argument that the UK cannot have a masters and a major is a little hollow. The USA has 3 masters and a major, and also at one point had the WTF. In Fact the USA currently has Cincy with the US Open not long after that. They may not be in the same part of the USA but its not exactly fair to say the UK cannot have both when others do. France also has a major and a masters.

If...IF this were to be a thing I'd probably axe either Paris, since its always been dumb to me to have a masters right before the WTF where is seems a ton of people don't care anyway or the Rogers cup to have some kind of break in that May-August block of time that would then become hyper loaded with required tournaments for top players.

 

[EloQuent]

Keep everything as it is. The spring/summer is already loaded from May to August you have 3 majors and several masters already.

Also...the argument that the UK cannot have a masters and a major is a little hollow. The USA has 3 masters and a major, and also at one point had the WTF. In Fact the USA currently has Cincy with the US Open not long after that. They may not be in the same part of the USA but its not exactly fair to say the UK cannot have both when others do. France also has a major and a masters.

If...IF this were to be a thing I'd probably axe either Paris, since its always been dumb to me to have a masters right before the WTF where is seems a ton of people don't care anyway or the Rogers cup to have some kind of break in that May-August block of time that would then become hyper loaded with required tournaments for top players.

France shouldn't have a masters and a slam too, I agree. Good reason why Halle should replace Bercy.

US comparison falls short - the US is 5x the population of France or UK. Better comparison would be to the entire EU.

 

[BeatlesFan]

I think it's a fair discussion whether Queen's should be a Masters.

This question has been raised many times here in the past. Queen's will never become a Masters unless it changes its venue. There is not sufficient parking and it's impossible to expand it because historic buildings can't be razed. The facilities and grounds are not adequate for it ever to become a Masters 1000 event. Obviously there should be a grass Masters, but it will not be Queen's.

 

[ibbi]

I see some people have thrown out Monte Carlo as a possible option. Are you people nuts? It's the most beautiful setting on tour and a tournament with one of the longest histories. I don't even get why it's the only Masters that is not mandatory. Seriously, does anyone know why that is?

I'm assuming the attendance is less strong than Madrid and Rome. Hamburg used to be the unpopular little sibling of the clay trio, and Monte Carlo has clearly inherited the title.

Madrid is getting the Indian Wells super 1000 treatment, right? So that isn't going anywhere, nor should it with the relatively constant success of Spanish players in both the mens and womens game, and Rome has even more prestige and history than Monte Carlo does so that's safe too.

 

[rUDin 21]

Grass season should have 2 Masters tournaments.Too much HC outdoor tournaments already.Also i think indoor season should have one masters before ATP finals.If you don't like Paris that much downgrade it to 500 and make Basel or Vienna 1000.Grass season practically doesn't exist only Wimbledon.That is sad.

 

[Lukhas]

I don't even get why it's the only Masters that is not mandatory. Seriously, does anyone know why that is?

Because the ATP was going to demote it in 2007 due to player desertion. It simply wasn't well attended by the players despite being a mandatory Masters Series tournament. However both a good chunk of the then Top 100 players and the Monte-Carlo Country club contested that decision, and such was the compromise: the tournament gets to keep its 1000 points and prize money but is no longer mandatory.

 

[jm1980]

Get rid of Madrid, or convert it back into indoor HC and return it to its original spot

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Halle a better choice. London already has Wimbledon. Germany deserves a Masters.

 

[OldschoolKIaus]

Make tennis awesome again, kill clay M1000!

MC -> Queens
Madrid -> Stuttgart
Rome -> Halle

 

[Deon Sanders]

Get rid of French Open

Extend grass season

Everyone wins

 

[DSH]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[TennisLBC]

As much as people here drag the Paris Masters, you need an indoor Masters event. Drop Shanghai.

 

[ak24alive]

The love for the Paris Masters is unbelievable.