IF Seles wouldn't have been stabbed, would she have been the greatest ever?

[federerhoogenbandfan]

I have no doubt she would have won Wimbledon, multiple titles as a matter of fact. Remember she was only a teenager when she lost to Graf in the finals. This was the surface she had the least experience on. She would have eventually become more comfortable on grass.

She lost in the finals.... to Graf. This is not the same as Sampras who got spanked in the 1st or 2nd round by unknown players on an annual basis.

I think you greatly overrate her abilities on grass, or the implications that she reached a Wimbledon final as a teenager that she was going to dominate Wimbledon later in her career. I certainly dont discount her maybe winning a Wimbledon had she not been stabbed, but I certainly dont consider it a given either. If she was lucky she may have won 1, or 2 if she was very lucky, and to even be a candidate for the best ever, she would have had to win atleast 2, no woman all-time great has won any slam less than twice.

She was clearly worse on grass compared to any other surface, at every point in her career, pre-stabbing, post-stabbing, dominantion, whenever.

Here are some examples:

89 French-lost to Graf in 3 set semifinal
89 Wimbledon-lost to Graf 6-0, 6-1 in 4th round.

91 Australian Open-won
91 French-won
91 Wimbledon-withdrew under mysterious circumstances, to put it mildy.
91 U.S open-won

92 Australian Open-won
92 French Open-won 10-8 in 3rd in final vs Graf
92 Wimbledon-lost 6-1, 6-2 in final vs Graf
92 U.S open-won

96 Australian-won
96 French-lost in quarters to Novotna, who beat her on hard courts that year also
96 Wimbledon-lost in 2nd round to Studenikova, same player who she beat 6-1, 6-2 and 6-2, 6-0 on hard courts that year
96 U.S open-finals, lost to Graf

97 French-lost in semis to Hingis, 3 sets
97 Wimbledon-lost to Testud in 3rd round
97 U.S open-lost to red hot Spirlea, quarters

You can come up with all the reasons you want, it is still clear to me she was not near the player on grass she was on other surfaces, whatever point in her career she was at. She was always going to have a hard battle to win 1 Wimbledon, let alone multiple.

Hana Mandilikova reached a Wimbledon final in 81 as a teenager, and never won Wimbledon. Hingis won Wimbledon at 16 in 97, and never won it again. Both Hingis and Mandilikova were better on grass those particular years, than Seles was on grass the year she reached the Wimbledon final in 92, by beating an aging Navratilova in the semis, and getting walloped by Graf in the final.

 

[crosscourt]

I don't know about best of all time but at her best she dominated the others like I haven't seen, and the others were pretty good. I wouldn't say her game was just power, it was power plus amazing angles. But what marked her out was the intensity in her play. A will to win that even players like Graf couldn't cope with. At her best Seles was too good for Graf. For the same reason, at her best I guess she would be too good for Capriati, Davenport and the Williamses. Whatever they might have that she didn't, they don't have that same intensity. After she was stabbed she lost some of her focus -- I guess it's difficult to concentrate on the ball like you used to when you are wondering who is behind you with a knife. It is also true that she wasn't the best athlete. She had to play more and more inside the baseline to compete.

I would say she was best on hard courts and clay. I wouldn't have expected her to win Wimbledon many times if at all.

 

[Ballmachine]

Question: IF Seles wouldn't have been stabbed, would she have been the greatest ever?

Answer: Absolutely!

 

[newnuse]

She won 6 out of 8 slams. That's impressive.

In 89, she lost to Graf in the 4th round. In 90, she lost in 3 tough sets to a good S&V'er, Zina Garrison in the quarters. In 91 she skipped. In 92 she lost in the finals to Graf. She beat the greatest grass court player ever, Navratilova in the semi's. I see that as a young & inexperience player steadily improving on grass.

She was was just so dominate on every other surface. I just don't see how she would not win Wimbledon eventually. Conchita Martinez, Hingis and Nochokena won it.

 

[Yours!05]

Question: IF Seles wouldn't have been stabbed, would she have been the greatest ever?
Answer: Absolutely!

Answer: No, but think how different women's tennis might have been. Seles grit and determination as an example might have set the WTA on a different course altogether. All the disappointment of women's tennis is around will to win, closing out matches. The likes of say Sharapova and V. Williams would've had to find a better way to make a buck than by their 6 winners/6 hit the fence method which, as things are, brings in a very good living. And shouldn't.

 

[Northerly]

Seles got a frightful pasting from Graf in the Wimbledon final when she was at her peak. How many years does it take to turn around a 1 and 2 thrashing at the premier event into "dominating" it?

 

[bcslice]

Seles got a frightful pasting from Graf in the Wimbledon final when she was at her peak. How many years does it take to turn around a 1 and 2 thrashing at the premier event into "dominating" it?

Now come on, let's be realistic. I don't think anyone on this board really believes that Seles would have "dominated" Wimbledon. I think, at most, she would have won 2 titles at Wimbledon.

Everyone would do well to remember that Sabatini, Novotna, and Sanchez Vicario were just a few points away from beating Graf in Wimbledon finals, 1991, 1993, and 1995 respectively. Therefore, it's not completely implausible to imagine that a player who had beaten Graf before on both hard and clay courts, might have been able to beat her at Wimbledon. A point no one can debate is that Seles is far more mentally tough that Sabatini, Novotna, and Sanchez Vicario and if she had had a lead over Graf in a Wimbledon final, she probably would have been better able to close the match.

Who knows? Do I think Seles would have won 5 Wimbledon titles? No way. Do I think she would have one at least 1? Definitely. Think 1994.

 

[Scorch]

She won 6 out of 8 slams. That's impressive.

In 89, she lost to Graf in the 4th round. In 90, she lost in 3 tough sets to a good S&V'er, Zina Garrison in the quarters. In 91 she skipped. In 92 she lost in the finals to Graf. She beat the greatest grass court player ever, Navratilova in the semi's. I see that as a young & inexperience player steadily improving on grass.

She was was just so dominate on every other surface. I just don't see how she would not win Wimbledon eventually. Conchita Martinez, Hingis and Nochokena won it.

Could not have put it better myself - Monica had a pretty good record on grass and the fact that she beat Martina in '92 should show anyone that she was effective even on that surface. Sure in the final she played badly and Graf was too strong but the potential for improvement was clearly there. A year (or 2?) later and Graf was beaten in the first round, Martina made it to the final and Conchita (who Monica had never lost to at that point and has only lost to once since) won it.

Since her comeback she has made a few qf at Wimbledon, taking Davenport (who can be seen to be an accomplished grass court player) to 3 sets and also Henin.

There is clearly a great deal of evidence to suggest that Monica could have enjoyed more success at Wimbledon.

 

[federerhoogenbandfan]

Could not have put it better myself - Monica had a pretty good record on grass and the fact that she beat Martina in '92 should show anyone that she was effective even on that surface.

Big deal, many other top players, Capriati, Novotna, clay courter Martinez(one of the weakest Wimbledon champs ever), beat the aging Martina on grass between 91-94, her feat does not stand out as something truly special, the way beating Martina on grass between 82-87 would have been. Heck even Linda Harvey Wild beat Martina on grass at Eastbourne 92, I guess Harvey Wild was a potential Wimbledon winner, LOL! The fact Martina was even contending at all at that age was a sign to her greatness.

Also I must add it is super hypocritical for any of you who diminish Graf's wins over Navratilova at Wimbledon in 88 and 89, and Graf's golden slam in 88 because Navratilova was "old", and then use Seles's win over an even older and more diminished Navratilova as a indication of her potential and ability on grass. Super hypocritical I would say.

Sure in the final she played badly and Graf was too strong but the potential for improvement was clearly there. A year (or 2?) later and Graf was beaten in the first round, Martina made it to the final and Conchita (who Monica had never lost to at that point and has only lost to once since) won it.

You are forgetting something. If Monica had stayed #1 over Graf, the draw would have been different, and Graf would not have even played McNeil in the 1st round of Wimbledon, and the upset would never have happened. Graf actually good have gained a Wimbledon title, if anything, had the Seles stabbing not occured; either way Seles would have had to go through Graf any of those years to win it in all likelihood.

Since her comeback she has made a few qf at Wimbledon, taking Davenport (who can be seen to be an accomplished grass court player) to 3 sets and also Henin.

She lost to Henin in 2 sets, not 3, and Henin was going through her sop****re slump that year; and Henin was regularly whipped by the Williams on grass, even in the years she was playing her top tennis(2001, 2003)

There is clearly a great deal of evidence to suggest that Monica could have enjoyed more success at Wimbledon.

Yeah alot of quarters and semis, and the odd final perhaps.

 

[newnuse]

Not you again

Martina made it to the SF,SF,F in 92-94. She was still a very good player on grass so it was a big deal. The point was that Seles beat her, she was able to beat very good players on grass. She was young and improving with wins over some good grass court players. NO, she had not reached her peaked at 19. Saying so is silly.

I don't see how you can look at her results on grass and just dismissed her on that surface. Are you saying Conchita Banana, Little Martina, Jana Nochokena could win at Wimbledon and Seles didn't have a prayer? Graf during her wins had some close calls. It wasn't like she was blowing everybody out.

 

[federerhoogenbandfan]

How was it that big a deal that Monica was able to beat Martina on grass, when Conchita and Novotna were able to during that time as well, and they are players you are mocking with nicknames such as Banana and Nochokena?
Oh yeah Linda Harvey Wild and Capriati as well, although you have yet to come up with clever names for them.

 

[newnuse]

I'm a little confused. You say it's no big deal beating Martina because players like Conchita and Novotna beat her. So either they are 2nd rate players who beat Martina and won it all or they are great players who beat Martina. If they are 2nd rate players who won it all, why can't the great Seles win it all??? So if they are great players who beat Martina, how does it minimize Seles beating Martina?

Jennifer 2 Joints a Day Capriati is a great player, so it's no shame in losing to her. Linda Joker's Wild, well anybody has a bad day.

 

[federerhoogenbandfan]

Yeah but Novotna only won Wimbledon once, Capriati never, Martinez only once(and you know that was a huge fluke), so beating Martina goes nowhere as far as showing she was safe to win "multiple" Wimbledons(for the record Capriati was only 15 when she beat Martina).

I also find it annoying that many of the same people who gush over Monica's Wimbledon semifinal win over Navratilova, talk about how meaningless Graf's 88 and 89 Wimbledon final wins over Navratilova were, and how meaningless Graf's golden slam in 88 was since Navratilova was "so old", but she was 3 and 4 years younger, and clearly better those years(89 particularly)than she was by 92. It is very hypocritical. I know you havent done that, but many people, inevitably Seles fans of course, have.

 

[newnuse]

I agree with you that in 92, Martina was well past her prime. Heck, she was past her prime in 88. You gotta look at the context.

Graf's great run came after Martina was past her prime. Her great run got stopped cold by Seles. When I cite the win in 92 over Martina as evidence Seles was a very competent grass player, I know Martina was well past her prime. She was still a very good player on grass though.

I think it is correct to say that Graf run's was after Martina was past her prime. It's also correct to say Martina was still one of the top players on grass in 92.

Novotna & Conchita only won it once. Yes, but they won it. I don't think any person in their right mind would put them in the same class as Seles. If inferior players like them can win it, why can't Seles. Why can't she do it 2-3 times? Hingis won it and she hit much softer than Seles. She wasn't nearly the player Seles was. Seles would have pounded her with much harder strokes.

Graf's win over Martina in 88/89 was far from meaningless. It's a good win, because Martina was still one of the best grass court players. However, she was not in her prime.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

I don't think she would have been the greatest ever because of her letting herself get out of shape in the late 90's. I think we can let her off the hook for her own behaviour only to an extent. The physical damage from the stabbing was negligible, so what we are really talking about here is the emotional efffect on her.
Consider this: Many Seles fans rant about the fact that her stabber did not serve jail time because he was found to be mentally defective and not responsible for his actions. Yet, these fans do not want to hold Seles responsible for her own actions and want to hand her about a dozen Majors titles. I also find it interesting that people focus on the titles Graf won and overlook titles that Seles would have more likely won, as in Iva Majoli, Roland Garros, 1997.
My take: She was emotionally affected by the stabbing to an extent that she did not compete as well as we could expect during the mid 90's, probably costing her 2-6 Majors titles. After her OZ win, all excuses are over and she is responsible for her own failure to stay in competitive shape. Also, don't forget that she became heavily involved in the type of outside projects people claim cost other female players titles. IF she was the greatest ever, she would have had the mental fortitude to shake off the stabbing. She didn't.
PS vis a vis Graf, I'm definitely a Seles fan, Seles was just not as great a player as Graf.

 

[Aykhan Mammadov]

I don't like her tennis style. Very small creativity on the court and very poor game. Main reasons of her success were good worked out backhand and forehand, skilled and trained strokes in general.

I din't notice any phantasy or diversity in her game similar to the game of Federer, or say Hingis among women. So she couldn't become "greatest ever", even close to that. My answer: NO.

 

[Kevin Patrick]

But Aykhan,
as you like to say, talent has nothing to do with comparing players, only results!

fact is, Seles was dominating tennis '91-'92. From '93-'96 players she dominated were winning majors(Sanchez, Martinez). Even Graf was being pushed to the limit by Sanchez. It seems highly likely that Seles would have done very well those years, perhaps enough to be a contender for 'best ever.'

& she would have stayed in shape, Camilio. she only gained that weight post stabbing because of depression(& she gained even more weight when her father got cancer in '97) yes, she couldn't lose it or didn't make enough of an attempt to lose it, but there were other factors. she had more to deal with than most ever do.

 

[newnuse]

She basically had Graf, Sanches, & Martinez as her main rivals to about 95. She beat them. She would had Hingis as her rival in 96/97. Hingis could not match her power and would have been ran off the court like the other big bombers did to her.

Davenport came along. Seles beat her in 96 and 97. Her first lost was to her in 98.
Venus came along around in 98. In 97 she was still young.

Even if you assume Seles (no stabbing) would lose to power players like Davenport or Venus, she would have reign until 98. That's a big assumption she would lose, but I will concede that for sake of argument. That's 5 more years as the dominant player. I'll be conservative and assume she would have won 10 out of those 20. If you consider she won 7 of her last 9, that's conservative. So 8 + 10 = possible GOAT.

I don't think for a second Graf would have cranked up her game to take on Seles. She was already around 24 and losing to her. What would she do differently? How would she changed? You can't just reinvent yourself at that age. You can't develop a better backhand overnight. You can't get faster. You can't just get a better forehand.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

I'll be conservative and assume she would have won 10 out of those 20. If you consider she won 7 of her last 9, that's conservative. So 8 + 10 = possible GOAT.

You are not being conservative, you are being wildly optimistic.
Even by your own extrapolation method Seles could not possibly do better than 2nd best GOAT, Mo Connolly would bury her. She was 9 for the last 9 of her Majors.

 

[newnuse]

What does Connolly have to do with this? The question was if Seles did not get stabbed, would she have been the best ever? I think she was on her way to being it. 7 of 9 and only 19.

If I'm optimistic, who would have stopped her? 93,94,95,96,97,98?

If you ask, if Connolly did not get injured young, would she be the GOAT? Sure looks like it.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

If I'm optimistic, who would have stopped her? 93,94,95,96,97,98?

The players who already did stop her still would have stopped her enough to keep her from winning more than 6 more, imo. BTW, has ANY player over 19 years old ever won 10 out of 20 Majors? If not, that would put your extrapolation into serious question. You and I both seem to agree that the music would be over by 1999. Seles was already showing signs of mental fraility, angering the tennis world with a suspicious withdrawal from Wimby. That raised some doubts about her competitiveness & self confidence on grass and it is reasonable to conclude she herself had doubts about winning Wimby and may not have done so. There was talk in the tennis world of her getting involved with outside projects (including modelling), and it was speculated that this had something to do with her Wimby withdrawal. The stabbing tends to make us forget all this. BTW, I'm not flaming her for that, I don't care what tourneys the players choose to compete in or what outside projects they have. It just puts her willingness to compete at something less than that of Navratilova, Evert, and Court just to name 3 greats she would not have surpassed. Her win at Oz proved that the stabbing did not prevent her from mentally and physically winning a Major, so why didn't she win more, especially after Oz? Maybe because she wasn't one of the 3 greatest female players ever.
Speaking of which, you really haven't gotten around to telling us how she would be the greatest ever even if she won those 10 Majors. Don't forget, one of her biggest potential rivals took herself out of the action (Steffi's not the only one who caught a break!) and women's tennis was considered to be weak in the 90's. So, if Capriati had not dropped out of tennis, would she...?

 

[Scorch]

Wait a second - Monica pulled out of Wibledon in 1991 with shin splints - there were rumours of other peoples' making surrounding the withdrawl. She turned up in 1992 and reached the final so where is the logic that this indicated 'frailty'???? Monica was one of the most competitive players, male or female, in history. She was fearless in the heat of battle! I know its you opinion but I wager that a massive majority of tennis pundits would say the Monica was one of the strongest players ever in terms of metal toughness.

How does one withdrawl due to injury logically make someone weaker mentally - surely that means there are a HELL of a lot of weak minded non-competitive players out there lol.

 

[newnuse]

You still did not answer my question on who would have stopped her. "The players who already did stop her".. how did they stop her. She won the previous 7 or 9. I don't call that stopping, I call it domination. Those so call stoppers were older than Seles. Seles was 19 and coming up.

If she was showing signs of mental fatigue, I would love to have those symptoms, #1 rank, 7 of 9.

Capriati is irrelevant to this thread. The question WAS NOT what if Seles did not get stabbed and Capriati did not flame out, would Seles be GOAT.

Yes she won the AO in 96, but she was not same player. You just don't take that much time off and come back the same. She was out of shape. Like I mentioned before, Mac and Wilander took a few months off during their peak and never came close to it again. This woman took 2 years off because of the attack. I don't know what happens, maybe your brain loses some of it's "tennis wiring". Maybe you think more instead of just reacting, maybe it's not automatic any more. I don't know but I've seen it happen.

People call Graf the GOAT or at least mention her in the debate. Here is a woman who stopped her cold turkey. She won 7 of 9 in the middle of Graf's reign. The only thing that stopped Seles was a knife in the back. How can you call Graf the GOAT or one of the best of all times and dismissed Seles so easily when she dominated.

 

[Cavaleer]

Yes, she would have been the best of her era, the Graf-Hingis years. But once Lindsey, Capriati, Serena and Venus stepped on the scene, to say nothing of the Belgians and Russians, she would have been top-ten but no higher.


Cavaleer

 

[laurie]

I'm really inspired by Seles's autobiography I've almost finished reading - "From fear to Victory". I've decided to to become a member of one of her fan website.

 

[federerhoogenbandfan]

If Seles won 10 of the 20 slams from 93-98, she would still have only 17 slams. Navratilova and Evert have 18, Court has 24. Graf had 11 at the time, I guess if Seles wins 10 of the 20, Graf probably wins 6 or 7 of the remaing 10, so she also ends up with 17 or 18. On top of all that Seles is no means certain to win Wimbledon, let alone win it twice, as all the top players have done at all the majors. So even if one concedes her winning 10 of the 20 slams between 93-98, that in no way concedes her as the best ever.

 

[newnuse]

I was being conservative. But if she won 18 majors (won 90 FO), you have to consider her when talking about GOAT. She took on and bested Graf, one of the GOAT. You would have to put her up there, above Graf and Evert. It would come down to her, Martina & Court.

I would not put Evert above her because Martina was better.

 

[federerhoogenbandfan]

Fair enough. If Monica continued being better than Steffi, and I agree she probably would have overall, than it would come down to those 3 for the best ever. Chris cant be seriously considered for the best ever since Martina was better, just as Steffi you wouldnt have been able to since Monica probably would have been considered better.

 

[newnuse]

See wasn't that simple... it only took 6 pages for us to come to this

 

[wtaplayerz]

I have just read a special edition of Sports Illustrated published several months ago, and inside is a very fun, though lighthearted expose by Legendary Tennis Historian Bud Collins.....

In this article, Collins does exactly what many tennis fans do...he pits players, the best of the women and the best of the men, of differing eras and places them at a Grand Slam tournamnent, at their best (primes) pitted against one another from quaterfinals to eventual champion......a sort of champions of all time.....

His results?

the men's final winner, is of course, Rod Laver, defeating Sampras, 3-6,7-6, 7-6, 4-6, 7-5.......

the women' final winner, is ofcourse, Monica Seles, defeating Chris Evert, 4-6, 7-5, 7-6.........


It is a really a great fun lighthearted article... and yes, Collins does pit Monica vs Graf in the semifinals, with Monica as the victor. he also writes that Monica "might have been the greatest had she not been stabbed"....

It is very clear that Collins is only echoing what many Seles' fans, and tennis fans in general, believe...that Monica, at her best, was superior to Graf......that Monica, had she not been stabbed, might have been the greatest.....

 

[newnuse]

I have just read a special edition of Sports Illustrated published several months ago, and inside is a very fun, though lighthearted expose by Legendary Tennis Historian Bud Collins.....

In this article, Collins does exactly what many tennis fans do...he pits players, the best of the women and the best of the men, of differing eras and places them at a Grand Slam tournamnent, at their best (primes) pitted against one another from quaterfinals to eventual champion......a sort of champions of all time.....

His results?

the men's final winner, is of course, Rod Laver, defeating Sampras, 3-6,7-6, 7-6, 4-6, 7-5.......

the women' final winner, is ofcourse, Monica Seles, defeating Chris Evert, 4-6, 7-5, 7-6.........


It is a really a great fun lighthearted article... and yes, Collins does pit Monica vs Graf in the semifinals, with Monica as the victor. he also writes that Monica "might have been the greatest had she not been stabbed"....

It is very clear that Collins is only echoing what many Seles' fans, and tennis fans in general, believe...that Monica, at her best, was superior to Graf......that Monica, had she not been stabbed, might have been the greatest.....

I like Collins, the man has a good sense of humor. It's quite evident when he puts Evert in the finals when we all know Martina got the best of her. Maybe because he was closer to Evert.

I don't think anybody can really argue against Seles being better than Graf. You just have to look the results in the majors prior to the incident.

Did he have Court there? How did she do? Mac?

 

[Gary Britt]

that was then and this is now...the girls hit it much harder now than then and there is no way seles could have kept up w. the pace with her slowness, sloppy footwork, and unorthodox racquet work....in watching her up close and personal a few times, this is pretty clear....she got away with it back then because she overpowered people from both sides..it;s a whole dif game now out there and she would get smoked by many of the girls now

Did you ever see Seles play at 19 years old before the stabbing? After the stabbing she never returned to the weight and fitness level she had at 19 before the stabbing. She was certainly slower after the stabbing, just wondering how she looked in person speed wise before the stabbing.

Gary Britt

 

[Camilio Pascual]

The only thing that stopped Seles was a knife in the back.

No, what stopped Seles was her REACTION to the stabbing. Now you are minimizing the psychological affect it had on her.
Mo Connolly was stopped by a sluice on a cement truck cutting through her leg and making her physically incapable of high level play despite her mental fortitude. Seles was not rendered physically incapable of a high level of play.
I already answered what players would have stopped her. What you don't seem to want to address is that the 90's are considered a weak era in women's tennis. Seles with even 17 Majors is going to lose out to Evert based on this alone. Evert has a 37-43 record against Martina N., who is the GOAT, Seles would nothing in her portfolio to compare to it. And, don't fool yourself, Capriati's absence would be used just as much against Seles as GOAT as her absence is used against Steffi. The question here IS would Seles be considered the greatest ever and Capriati IS relevant to the discussion.

 

[newnuse]

CP,

A knife in the backed stopped her. The time off was devastating to her career. I don't care if it was physical or mental/emotional. What difference does it make?

If Seles had won 18 (includes 90 FO), you would have to include her in your discussions of GOAT. Graf is considered the GOAT by many. How can you not consider Seles for GOAT if she got the best of Graf and winning 18 majors? She would have a great rival in Graf like Evert had in Martina. The difference would be she best Graf, while Martina bested Evert. Assuming that happened, the GOAT debate would be down to Martina, Seles and who ever else.

Capriati never did anything substantial. She flamed out way too young. Assuming she would be GOAT material is a leap of faith. She is not relevant to the discussion because she never did anything to be included in the discussion. Potential doesn't mean anything. I seen too many young athletes with great potential do nothing. It would not have been held against Seles because she had Graf as her main rival.

If Graf left the game early for some reason, then you would be able to hold that against Seles.

 

[wtaplayerz]

------------------------#2 GRAF --------------#1 SELES

1990 Australian------- WON------------------ DNP
1990 French---------- FINAL----------------- WON
1990 Wimbledon------- SEMIS------- ----- ----- QUARTERS
1990 U.S. Open ------- FINAL ------------------ THIRD ROUND
1990 WTA Championships--SEMIS---- ----------------WON
1990 Majors Record------- 26-4 (86.7%)------- 20-2 (91%)

---------------------------------Graf-------------Seles

1991 Australian---------- QUARTERS------------- WON
1991 French ------------ SEMIS -------------- --WON
1991 Wimbledon--------- WON----------------- DNP
1991 U.S. Open---------- SEMIS --------------- WON
1991 WTA Championships-- QUARTERS------------ WON
------------------------------- 22-4 (84.6%) ----- 28-0 (100%)

--------------------------------Graf---------------Seles

1992 Australian------------ DNP----------------------WON
1992 French -------------- FINAL ------------------- WON
1992 Wimbledon---------WON----------------------FINAL
1992 U.S. Open-------------QUARTERS ----------------WON
1992 WTA Championships --- FIRST ROUND-------------WON
----------------------- 17-3 (85%)------------------ 34-1 (97%)


----------------------- Graf---------------Seles

1993 Australian----- FINAL ----------- WON

---------------------- 6-1 (85.7%)-------7-0 (100%)

So ... what kind of an impact did the stabbing of Gunther Parche have?

How did the next 5 major events turned out AFTER Gunther Parche made sure that world number one Monica Seles was no longer dominating women's tennis at the age of 19 years, 4 months after dominating in these earlier years?

APRIL 1993 --------------(Seles) STABBED

------------------------------ Graf---------------Seles

1993 French -------------- WON--------------- STABBED
1993 Wimbledon-----------WON--------------- STABBED
1993 U.S. Open----------- WON -------------- STABBED
1993 WTA Championships--- WON--------------STABBED

1994 Australian------------ WON-------------- STABBED


When Seles finally returned to the women's tour in August 1995, she was no longer the same caliber of player ( both mentally and physically) she once was before the tragedy.

 

[wtaplayerz]

Monica Seles already had 8 majors at age 19-winning 55 of her last 56 Grand Slam tournaments prior to the 1993 tragedy. No one had ever broken in like this, on either side of the sport. Not Bjorn Borg or Chris Evert or John McEnroe or anybody.

 

[CoASH]

edit: sarcasm

 

[laurie]

Hey Did Seles Get Stabbed?!?!?!?!

If you can get hold of her book "from fear to victory" written in 1996, you'll get a first hand account from her about her stabbing and what she went through afterwards for two years. Its an incredible read. Its also a help to anyone who has to overcome a fear for whatever reason.

I have a tremendous respect for Monica Seles.

 

[federerhoogenbandfan]

Capriati never did anything substantial. She flamed out way too young. Assuming she would be GOAT material is a leap of faith. She is not relevant to the discussion because she never did anything to be included in the discussion. Potential doesn't mean anything. I seen too many young athletes with great potential do nothing. It would not have been held against Seles because she had Graf as her main rival.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on Capriati. Capriati was labelled as a player with that kind of potential, but it never fully materialized. Potential and realization of that potential are two different things. She did in time become a great player, winning 3 majors, and briefly reaching #1, but she is nowhere near the discussion centering around the Grafs, Seles, and Navratilovas of the World. She was 2-5 vs Seles, which is respectable but 0-3 vs Seles in Grand Slam matchups, and 1-10 vs Graf, before she burnt out and left the game temporarily at the end of 93. I see no evidence anything anyone at the very top did being diminished by her absense.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

Capriati never did anything substantial.

You don't have a leg to stand on with that statement, she will be in the Hall of Fame with the 3 Majors and Olympic Gold. She won't be considered by me to be in the elite tier of Hall of Famers where Seles will be since she wasn't as geat a player, but your statement is absurd. Anyway, you will eventually realize you were wrong when she is in.

 

[newnuse]

You don't have a leg to stand on with that statement, she will be in the Hall of Fame with the 3 Majors and Olympic Gold. She won't be considered by me to be in the elite tier of Hall of Famers where Seles will be since she wasn't as geat a player, but your statement is absurd. Anyway, you will eventually realize you were wrong when she is in.

Okay, where to begin.

I never said she would not be a hall of famer. I think she will be in.

My Definition of Substantial: Demonstrating the ability to challenge Seles

What did Jennifer do prior to flaming out that would make you think she would challenge Seles? What did she win? Her majors were after she came back, which happened to coincide with a post stabbing Seles.

So she won 3 majors, how many did Sanchez, Sabatini, Martinez...etc win? I didn't see any of them challenge Seles. I saw Graf totally dominate the WTA prior to Seles. I didn't see her stop Seles (yes I know she beat her at W). The only thing I saw was Seles winning and winning ....and winning

 

[Rabbit]

...sluice on a cement truck...

So that's what that thing is called.

JenCap is a lock for the Hall of Fame. Rags to riches to burnout to riches again. Better GS record than some folks already in the Hall.

 

[MonkeyPox]

Capriati makes Novatna look like a chump and Jana is already in the Hall of Fame, as is Sabatini, so Jenny will be there and smoking crack at the ceremony. Seles will be there too. They all have a pretty nice life if you ask me.

 

[slack hack]

Sanchez won four GS titles Sabatini is NOT in the HOF

 

[slack hack]

Seles got a frightful pasting from Graf in the Wimbledon final when she was at her peak. How many years does it take to turn around a 1 and 2 thrashing at the premier event into "dominating" it?

After Navratilova's whining about Seles' grunting in the semis, Seles tried to play
that final silently. She was barely hitting the ball.
Her serve return had been so devastating up to that match, had she
just played her game, grunts and all, she would have crushed Steffi.

 

[federerhoogenbandfan]

After Navratilova's whining about Seles' grunting in the semis, Seles tried to play
that final silently. She was barely hitting the ball.
Her serve return had been so devastating up to that match, had she
just played her game, grunts and all, she would have crushed Steffi.

Yes, Seles beat Graf 10-8 in the 3rd on clay, a month before that Wimbledon final, on the best surface for her to play Steffi, and she would have crushed Steffi in the Wimbledon final on the worst surface for her to play Steffi had she been allowed to grunt. ROTFL!!!!

 

[Camilio Pascual]

My Definition of Substantial: Demonstrating the ability to challenge Seles

"Capriati never did anything substantial." Hmmm.
That doesn't look like a made up after-the-foot-went-in-the-mouth definition at all! How was anybody in the world to divine that is what you actually meant? A rather artless backpedal on your part.
Well, thank heavens Evert is 2-1 against Seles or she wouldn't have done anything substantial either, hmmm?
BTW, you've asked a question that has been already answered again, this is at least 3 different times in this thread. This time it's about her Olympic gold, you are being too lazy and dishonest in this discussion and obviously didn't even pay attention to when she won it. Over and out.

 

[newnuse]

"Capriati never did anything substantial." Hmmm.
That doesn't look like a made up after-the-foot-went-in-the-mouth definition at all! How was anybody in the world to divine that is what you actually meant? A rather artless backpedal on your part.
Well, thank heavens Evert is 2-1 against Seles or she wouldn't have done anything substantial either, hmmm?
BTW, you've asked a question that has been already answered again, this is at least 3 different times in this thread. This time it's about her Olympic gold, you are being too lazy and dishonest in this discussion and obviously didn't even pay attention to when she won it. Over and out.

If you read my previous posts, you should know what I meant. You claimed Jenn would have challenged Seles and that Seles reign was tainted by Capriati flaming out early. I wrote she had not done anything substantial to warrant that claim.

Now, in that context what the hell do you think I meant by substantial??? Jenn won the US Open Junior as a 3 yr old, she saved 10 lives at the beach one day... those would all be considered substantial... what the hell does it have to do with your claim that Jenn would stop Seles. I don't give a crap about her winning the Olympic gold or other 2nd rate tournaments. I don't care she won the AO and FO 8 years after the stabbing. What the hell did she do when Seles was winning 7 of 9?

And what questioned was that? I still don't have an answer.

The difference between me and you is that, when I make a point, I back it up with facts & logic. When you make a point, it's based on assumptions and your opinion.

For Example, You say Jenn would challenge Seles. That's your opinion, based on very little evidence.

I say she would not. Jenn never made it to the finals of one major prior to the stabbing. As a matter of fact, she didn't make it to a final until 2001. Looking at this, how can you come to the conclusion she would challenge Seles? Graf won a boatload of Majors and did not stop Seles, yet we are suppose to believe Jenn would.

See it's called scoreboard. Seles did it. Jenn did not. You can make all the lame assumptions you want, but you can't change the scoreboard.

Since it seems English is not your 1st language, I've give you a few more examples in hope that you might comprehend it.

Seles Bashers: She would have burnt out early.
Fact: She played to 2003 and loved tennis.

Seles Bashers: She would have been injured due to her bad strokes.
Facts: She had no significant injuries prior to the stabbing. She came back out of shape and had a few injuries, nothing chronic or unusual. She hit with 2 hands of both wings. 2 handed strokes are much easier on your body. It limits the amount of motion on your swing. The stress is distributed to 2 limbs.

Seles Bashers: So & so would challenged Seles:
Fact: So & so couldn't hold a candle to Graf.

 

[Michael Haller]

At the time of the stabbing Seles owned Steffi with the possible exception of on grass. ...

Graf had won 3 of 5 matches against #1 Seles ....

 

[Michael Haller]

Quite possibly yes - IMHO Graf was on her way out because Seles was kicking her around. I think that stabbing added a few years and several majors to Graf's record.

Wrong.
Graf had narrowed Seles's lead in the WTA rankings from 58 pts. (beginning of 1992) to only 21 pts. (April 1993).

In the 12 months before the stabbing (May 1992 - April 1993) Seles had a 92.1 winning percentage (and had lost 22 sets in 63 matches). In the preceding 12 months (May 1991 - April 1992) Seles had been better: a 93.8 winning percentage (and only 16 sets lost although she had played 81 matches).

Graf on the other hand had improved:
Between May 1991 and April 1992 she had a 90.9 winning percentage, between May 1992 and April 1993 she had 92.0 %.

Graf almost had closed the gap and with a FO 1993 would have been #1 again anyway.