If Serena had the greatest serve in women's tennis, just like Chrissie and Cliffy keep saying

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
BTW, where is the clown who claimed that some Canadian tennis player ran the 100m in 10.3 sec in the 50s?
The tennis serve is the one stroke that has largely remained the same, in technique, despite changes in string and racquet technology. If you handed a similarly weighed and balanced wooden racquet to a high level player, they would be able to serve with it just fine.

Also note that Pancho and Kramer played before the serve rule change allowing players to lift off from the ground, which would have given them extra MPH
 

Hoi Polloi

Professional
The tennis serve is the one stroke that has largely remained the same, in technique, despite changes in string and racquet technology. If you handed a similarly weighed and balanced wooden racquet to a high level player, they would be able to serve with it just fine.

Also note that Pancho and Kramer played before the serve rule change allowing players to lift off from the ground, which would have given them extra MPH

Those guys hitting serves in the high 130s while standing on the ground?
:-D
 

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
How is Henin quitting tennis Serena's fault?

It isn't her fault but it is part of evaluating her competition since Henin being gone weakens the competition obviously.

Of note I still think Serena had the toughest competition of all the greats, just responding to that aspect of it.
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
It isn't her fault but it is part of evaluating her competition since Henin being gone weakens the competition obviously.

Of note I still think Serena had the toughest competition of all the greats, just responding to that aspect of it.

The interesting thing about it is that the competition was tougher when Serena was in her prime, and then got progressively weaker as she aged.

As we have learned from the Big 3, for ATGs it's better to age into a weaker era. You will almost always do better that way.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah well we can all say 'if not for injuries', but injuries will always be part of sport.
Pancho Gonzalez and Jack Kramer could serve in the high 130s with a wooden racquet, and they were 6'2"

A wooden racquet changes very little in how fast you can serve
It isn't about the speed, but control, spin and placement, along with better grip and comfort. Top performers like Serena gets racket and specially made for her to ensure that perform exactly as they wish.

Modern equipment and quality string certainly enhance today's players. You seriously think Serena uses Margaret Court obsolete wooden racket would produces the same serve quality as her custom made Wilson Blade? :unsure:
 

skaj

Legend
And how many years did Serena played on the tour in compare to Graf?

Despite having a much shorter career, Serena is only 1 slam ahead while every other achievements Graf tower over Serena.

Yes, because she was managing her career smarter than Graf, she had fun and did off court stuff, so she did not burn out at 30 like Steffi did. The result - more slams. Not to mention Serena's tougher competition.
 

SeeItHitIt

Professional
And think of what her serve would have been if she was able to elevate? But that would have taken Herculean effort. Basically a platform pusher.
 

heftylefty

Hall of Fame
What I have "Learned" from this Thread:

Serena Williams serve is solely based on the fact she was the only person with access to custom tennis racquets from Wilson. Wilson has been unwilling to share their Alien Technology with their other sponsored players. Nevermind the FACT she also used an non-stencled Donnay when she played Graf and won her first US Open. Serena serving prowess could not come from her service motion despite what "experts" who played tennis professionally may claim. These former tour level players lack the intelligence afforded to the chosen few who achieved guru status. Thank you for insight Guru.
 

Raiden

Hall of Fame
Serena's serve was always good but her serve in her youth/20s was not as good as it became later.

She clearly prioritized sharpening that stroke's potential in the latter half of her career, as it became even more important to winning — given that she can't rely on movement and explosive speed like she did in the past
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, because she was managing her career smarter than Graf, she had fun and did off court stuff, so she did not burn out at 30 like Steffi did. The result - more slams. Not to mention Serena's tougher competition.
Incorrect.

Graf has nothing more to prove because she has achieved so much at 30, much like Jordan has achieved in basketball. She's not obsessed with the slam like Serena who plays every slam tournament as if her life depends on it. Had Graf was motivate to win every slam as possible, I have no doubt that she can win well beyond 22 slams, possibly 27-30 slams since she was still so young.

Not to mention Serena's tougher competition.

Comedy Gold
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Yes, because she was managing her career smarter than Graf, she had fun and did off court stuff, so she did not burn out at 30 like Steffi did. The result - more slams. Not to mention Serena's tougher competition.

Serena has been one of the more successful examples of a pro athlete who excelled in her profession, yet was able to succeed in other areas, start a family at the same time, etc. Others were / are so single minded, that they end up having less than pleasing personal lives, yet for the sacrifice, they have little to show for it.


What I have "Learned" from this Thread:

Serena Williams serve is solely based on the fact she was the only person with access to custom tennis racquets from Wilson. Wilson has been unwilling to share their Alien Technology with their other sponsored players. Nevermind the FACT she also used an non-stencled Donnay when she played Graf and won her first US Open.

Please do not present facts. It gets in the way of the dangerous hatred some have for Serena, and their inability to accept that she's one of professional sport's greatest individuals--unlike the kind of underperforming player often inflated around boards of this kind.

Serena serving prowess could not come from her service motion despite what "experts" who played tennis professionally may claim. These former tour level players lack the intelligence afforded to the chosen few who achieved guru status. Thank you for insight Guru.

(y)
 

skaj

Legend
Incorrect.

Graf has nothing more to prove because she has achieved so much at 30, much like Jordan has achieved in basketball. She's not obsessed with the slam like Serena who plays every slam tournament as if her life depends on it. Had Graf was motivate to win every slam as possible, I have no doubt that she can win well beyond 22 slams, possibly 27-30 slams since she was still so young.



Comedy Gold

Incorrect. Graf did not want to play tennis anymore. She had plenty to prove - that she was good enough to be the Open Era record holder despite the circumstances of her record, that she can keep up with the rising greatest WTA generation ever("Comedy Gold" for those who don't know tennis/have problems with facing the obvious), that she can beat Court's record which was only a couple of slams away. And she played every not just slam but match with everything she's got, she was well known for being one of only a few players who hated to lose that much. She lost that in the summer of 1999.
 
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Hoi Polloi

Professional
Incorrect. Graf did not want to play tennis anymore. She had plenty to prove - that she we good enough to be the Open Era record holder despite the circumstances of her record, that she can keep up with the rising greatest WTA generation ever("Comedy Gold" for those who don't know tennis/have problems with facing the obvious), that she can beat Court's record which was only a couple of slams away. And she played every not just slam but match with everything she's got, she was well known to be one of only a few players who hated to lose that much. She lost that in the summer of 1999.

When you have won
1) the Golden Slam,
2) a record 21 slams within one decade (1987-1996),
3) each slam at least 4 times,
4) 3+ slams in 5 different years,
5) 50 % of all tournaments you played,
6) 89.3 % of all your matches,
you only smile mildly about some agitated fans of lesser players who think you had anything left to prove.

And the “greatest WTA generation ever“ is supposed to be the one when someone like Capriati won 3 slams, someone like Davenport was #1 for years and people like Myskina, Kuznetsova, 17-year-old Sharapova won slams?
:laughing: :-D
 

skaj

Legend
When you have won
1) the Golden Slam,
2) a record 21 slams within one decade (1987-1996),
3) each slam at least 4 times,
4) 3+ slams in 5 different years,
5) 50 % of all tournaments you played,
6) 89.3 % of all your matches,
you only smile mildly about some agitated fans of lesser players who think you had anything left to prove.

And the “greatest WTA generation ever“ is supposed to be the one when someone like Capriati won 3 slams, someone like Davenport was #1 for years and people like Myskina, Kuznetsova, 17-year-old Sharapova won slams?
:laughing: :-D

Have you won all that, so you know?

Yes, Myskina, Kuznetsova, early matured like many other female players Sharapova, also Serena, Venus, Hingis, Henin, Clijsters, peak Capriati, the most consistent power player Davenport etc. The greatest WTA generation ever.

Keep smiling. ;)
 

Hoi Polloi

Professional
Have you won all that, so you know?

Yes, Myskina, Kuznetsova, early matured like many other female players Sharapova, also Serena, Venus, Hingis, Henin, Clijsters, peak Capriati, the most consistent power player Davenport etc. The greatest WTA generation ever.

Keep smiling. ;)

Capriati winning 3 slams…. :laughing:
Steffi‘s last match against Jen was a 61 60 win in 1999. :-D And that was a crippled Steffi!
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
If you have to go from thread to thread trying to undercut other generations in order to assign some claim of GOAT-hood to Graf, such desperate, revisionist, patchwork arguments pretending to be accurate only makes it seem Graf needs to be defended. If that's the case, the you're doing more to diminish her status than the records or era of any other player.

Graf is one of the few GOAT players--either one believes it (and does not need to defend the status), or one does not.
 

chrisb

Professional
Pancho Gonzalez and Jack Kramer could serve in the high 130s with a wooden racquet, and they were 6'2"

A wooden racquet changes very little in how fast you can serve
good
130s??? I saw them both play there serves were great for that era but 130s that is a. almost impossible and b the measuring tools frankly were not that good
 

skaj

Legend
Capriati winning 3 slams…. :laughing:
Steffi‘s last match against Jen was a 61 60 win in 1999. :-D And that was a crippled Steffi!

I see that you don't know tennis, I'll help you. In early 1999 Capriati was rubbish, losing in 1st/2nd rounds regularly in straight sets. Later in the year she started coming back slowly, in 2000s she became a factor again, while in 2001 she played the best tennis of her life.
 

Hoi Polloi

Professional
I see that you don't know tennis, I'll help you. In early 1999 Capriati was rubbish, losing in 1st/2nd rounds regularly in straight sets. Later in the year she started coming back slowly, in 2000s she became a factor again, while in 2001 she played the best tennis of her life.

Yeah, all players were either too old, too young, had a rubbish phase, too lesbian, were still maturing, didn‘t care, were too quiet, didn‘t like a closed roof, were cheated by the umpire etc. when they lost to Steffi. Who played at her peak during her whole career.
We know that.
 

Hoi Polloi

Professional
I see that you don't know tennis, I'll help you. In early 1999 Capriati was rubbish, losing in 1st/2nd rounds regularly in straight sets. Later in the year she started coming back slowly, in 2000s she became a factor again, while in 2001 she played the best tennis of her life.

2001/02 Capriati lost twice to Testud and even three times to Stevenson (one loss a 16 16).
Another highlight was her 06 36 against old Martinez (Zurich 2002).
Her loss to #59 Kuti Kis in Rome 2001 was also impressive.

Again, Jen winning 3 slams in the early 00s is all we need to know about those years.
Myskina, Kuzzy and 17-year-old Shara winning slams in 2004 are the final nail in the coffin.

Do you think that would have been possible during the Steffi rule….?
:-D
 

skaj

Legend
Yeah, all players were either too old, too young, had a rubbish phase, too lesbian, were still maturing, didn‘t care, were too quiet, didn‘t like a closed roof, were cheated by the umpire etc. when they lost to Steffi. Who played at her peak during her whole career.
We know that.
2001/02 Capriati lost twice to Testud and even three times to Stevenson (one loss a 16 16).
Another highlight was her 06 36 against old Martinez (Zurich 2002).
Her loss to #59 Kuti Kis in Rome 2001 was also impressive.

Again, Jen winning 3 slams in the early 00s is all we need to know about those years.
Myskina, Kuzzy and 17-year-old Shara winning slams in 2004 are the final nail in the coffin.

Do you think that would have been possible during the Steffi rule….?
:-D

I guess you are laughing at your not so smart reply, because what you wrote does not negate what I wrote, which is the fact that Capriati played her best tennis in 2001. Great player, whose potentials were recognized by the pros when she was still in her early teens, and who peaked in 2001.

Myskina, Kuznetsova and Sharapova(you are repeating yourself in the lack of arguments), yes, more great players winning slams.

During Steffi's rule it would not be possible, since she didn't rule great players but people like Sabatini, Sanchez, Fernandez...
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
Lots of great players may not train as hard as they should because too much training could lead to: 1.) injuries or 2.) exhaustion in the match.
This has happened in all sports.
What about all the players who trained really hard and it translated to no championship. just a first or second rd loss or not making the draw (playoffs) at all.
I am very pro training but doing too much can become counterproductive. Some great players are terrible at practice but excel when they're in an actual game.
-- "Man, we're talking about practice. Not a game. Practice."
I don't remember Serena ever using a kick serve.
 

Hoi Polloi

Professional
I guess you are laughing at your not so smart reply, because what you wrote does not negate what I wrote, which is the fact that Capriati played her best tennis in 2001. Great player, whose potentials were recognized by the pros when she was still in her early teens, and who peaked in 2001.

Myskina, Kuznetsova and Sharapova(you are repeating yourself in the lack of arguments), yes, more great players winning slams.

During Steffi's rule it would not be possible, since she didn't rule great players but people like Sabatini, Sanchez, Fernandez...

And - among a dozen others - people like Kimiko Date.
Who at age 39-43 beat 5 different slam winners of the 2010s in 2010-14.

Oops… :D
 

Moon Shooter

Hall of Fame
I think Serena had/has the best serve. She also has an aggressive first strike style. All of this should age much better than a more defensive player with a mediocre serve. Winning the most slams has as much to do with playing longer as it does with playing better. So I think op asks a good question. Serena’s style was one that ages well so she should have gotten the most slams after playing so long - if she was actually the goat.
 

Moon Shooter

Hall of Fame
Lots of great players may not train as hard as they should because too much training could lead to: 1.) injuries or 2.) exhaustion in the match.
This has happened in all sports.
What about all the players who trained really hard and it translated to no championship. just a first or second rd loss or not making the draw (playoffs) at all.
I am very pro training but doing too much can become counterproductive. Some great players are terrible at practice but excel when they're in an actual game.
-- "Man, we're talking about practice. Not a game. Practice."
I don't remember Serena ever using a kick serve.

you can’t play better than 100% in any game. The only thing you can do is make your 100% bigger. And you do that in practice.

Also what is the downside to staying fit by being careful about your nutrition?

However you look at it, it is a matter of will.
 

Moon Shooter

Hall of Fame
The interesting thing about it is that the competition was tougher when Serena was in her prime, and then got progressively weaker as she aged.

As we have learned from the Big 3, for ATGs it's better to age into a weaker era. You will almost always do better that way.

I actually think people make too big of a deal about age in tennis. Unless you are injured I’m not sure players overall game gets appreciably worse. Especially if they are relying on a big serve and their arm holds up.
 

heftylefty

Hall of Fame
New Rule: Do not bring up Michael Jordan and Margaret Court up in the same thread. If Court is indeed the GOAT (Thanks, in no small part to Serena making her relevant after nearly 40 years), Michael Jordan's 6 rings are laughable to Bill Russell's 11 rings in 13 seasons. You are only showing that you are really bad at analogies.
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
New Rule: Do not bring up Michael Jordan and Margaret Court up in the same thread. If Court is indeed the GOAT (Thanks, in no small part to Serena making her relevant after nearly 40 years), Michael Jordan's 6 rings are laughable to Bill Russell's 11 rings in 13 seasons. You are only showing that you are really bad at analogies.

Oof, painful comparison here.

Also, somehow amazingly Serena is responsible for Court's greatness lol. Literally one of 2 people in the Open Era to win THE Grand Slam, but not relevant until Serena propped her up.

ESPN may have an opening for you in their tennis coverage.
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
New Rule: Do not bring up Michael Jordan and Margaret Court up in the same thread. If Court is indeed the GOAT (Thanks, in no small part to Serena making her relevant after nearly 40 years), Michael Jordan's 6 rings are laughable to Bill Russell's 11 rings in 13 seasons. You are only showing that you are really bad at analogies.
LeBron is better than everyone
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
LeBron is better than everyone

If there were an all-time draft set up among all the NBA teams featuring every historical player, is it your contention that LeBron would be selected first? To me, in a team sport that is the question at the heart of GOAT-hood. Stats and everything else is often a product of circumstance, especially at the margin.

If not, who would be?
 

Hoi Polloi

Professional
Oops you said something silly and unrelated again, yes. I love it how you laugh at yourself.

Now imagine what damage a 25-year-old Date would have done in 2010!

No wonder Date thought that even a 41-year-old Graf could still have been #1 in 2011. Maybe a bit hyperbole. But even a Graf hater like you surely would admit that Steffi would have won a lot of slams in the 00s if she had decided to continue her career until that age, no?
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
New Rule: Do not bring up Michael Jordan and Margaret Court up in the same thread. If Court is indeed the GOAT (Thanks, in no small part to Serena making her relevant after nearly 40 years)

Court was always relevant, and refereed to throughout the decades for her stellar records--the Grand slam at the top of this list, which was certainly a discussion when Graf won hers.

, Michael Jordan's 6 rings are laughable to Bill Russell's 11 rings in 13 seasons. You are only showing that you are really bad at analogies.

Usually, there's only one TTW member who routinely brings up Jordan as "the greatest" (I'm guessing you know who that is) when Jordan lacks the most championship rings--the determining factor (above all anything else) of how great a player was in basketball. Of course, similar to this fool's arguments attempting to separate eras of tennis in order to pump up his tin-god, he only defeats his own argument when separating one sport (in this case, basketball) reduces the historic value and consistency of the sport...but that goes in one ear and out of the other with the member in question.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
you can’t play better than 100% in any game. The only thing you can do is make your 100% bigger. And you do that in practice.

Also what is the downside to staying fit by being careful about your nutrition?

However you look at it, it is a matter of will.
No downside to nutrition and being fit. Yet some exercises and strengthening lead to injury even if you use proper form. Pull-ups were removed from my routine about 8 yrs ago.
Serena's body did change from the early 2000s to 2005-ish. Venus's didn't. I kind of think sw got a butt injection like KK.
Everyone is built different physically which means addt'l practice doesn't help everyone the same. Some need to hit 3-4 hrs 5-6 days a week or more. Some are better with just 2 hours fo 3 days a week and can still win.

Anyway, I don't know why certain tour players can't execute a routine regulation volley, hit an effectively disguised kick serve in a match but as we've seen it happens.
Certainly they want to improve and they have the coaches to help but even a matter of "will" or 6+ hours daily hasn't helped them hit a bh slice like Federer, gain 25mph on their serves, or slide like Iga.

IMO, you need a good balance of practice and playing smart (understanding your opponent). This will likely win you more games than maxxing yourself out physically in practice on a stroke that will remain avg. or below average. Recognize point construction or what your opponent is doing to hurt you.
~ I am not an expert. I never developed the type of kick serve I wanted to have. I was not even a D1 player. And I know the pros are many levels better than me.
 

a10best

Hall of Fame
LeBron is better than everyone
If Serena won 4 finals and lost 6 finals is she better than everyone?

A 4-6 finals record and calling yourself the best makes no sense today or in any sports generation. Plus, that Disney bubble championship was fake.
He should have never lost in the finals to the Mavs either but he did. The dude is never the greatest.
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
If Serena won 4 finals and lost 6 finals is she better than everyone?

A 4-6 finals record and calling yourself the best makes no sense today or in any sports generation. Plus, that Disney bubble championship was fake.
He should have never lost in the finals to the Mavs either but he did. The dude is never the greatest.
Team sports totally incomparable to individual sports lol. That’s a clown comparison I’m not even going to dignify.

Jordan is not winning a chip and probably not even making the finals with 07 Daniel Gibson as his 2nd best player, or 15 Mozgov/Dellavedova, or 18 JR Smith/washed up Kevin Love lol.

LeBron has produced 17 seasons of pure excellence where he was no less than the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league and peaked higher than anyone but MJ anyways. JorFraud took 2 years off playing baseball and retired early only to come back as a weird player owner for the Wiz. That’s 7 total years of either not playing or playing below par basketball —- 7 years in which LeBron was instead playing ELITE basketball.

That makes the difference. LeBron simply brought genius basketball more often, best longevity. He has played more great games and great seasons of basketball than any athlete who has ever played the game.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
LeBron is better than everyone

Not remotely true. If he was "better than everyone", his alleged "excellence" would have carried more teams to finals victories, but he did not. To be clear, yes, a player in the NBA gains his reputation by the championships above all else, and James will end his career far below the true basketball GOAT, Bill Russell. James running around with all of that "king" BS is rather embarrassing as he's not the "king" of his profession in the most relevant method of historical consideration.

If Serena won 4 finals and lost 6 finals is she better than everyone?

A 4-6 finals record and calling yourself the best makes no sense today or in any sports generation.

Agreed.

The dude is never the greatest.

True.
 

Kralingen

Talk Tennis Guru
Not remotely true. If he was "better than everyone", his alleged "excellence" would have carried more teams to finals victories, but he did not. To be clear, yes, a player in the NBA gains his reputation by the championships above all else, and James will end his career far below the true basketball GOAT, Bill Russell. James running around with all of that "king" BS is rather embarrassing as he's not the "king" of his profession in the most relevant method of historical consideration.



Agreed.



True.
Judging team sports players solely by championships certifies you as someone who does not have even a slight grasp on the game of basketball and thus not worth debating with. Bill Russell as GOAT bc he won championships with the most stacked team ever in an 8 team league LOL. I mean how can you write this stuff with a straight face. It’s embarrassing to everyone.
 

bigbadboaz

Semi-Pro
Never mind the fact that there are many more factors to rate a player on than simply number of championships - if one cares to get into detail/nuance at all - in any sport, individual or team.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Judging team sports players solely by championships certifies you as someone who does not have even a slight grasp on the game of basketball and thus not worth debating with. Bill Russell as GOAT bc he won championships with the most stacked team ever in an 8 team league LOL. I mean how can you write this stuff with a straight face. It’s embarrassing to everyone.

On the contrary, you gush over James like the uneducated who are not those who know what the game means, but respond to marketing hype. The championships are the only reason they're playing. It is why they become professionals in that sport. It has nothing to do with fanboy obsessions over irrelevant statistics, or what gets you off. They all want championships, and James does not now, nor will he ever have the ability to be the greatest by that standard of measure. That you have such a woeful ignorance of that comes as no surprise, considering the drug-addled, more-hype-than-results fool you have as your avatar.
 
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