If the latest gen is playing terribly, is it not better that ageing Djokodal expose this?

jl809

Legend
I know there’s been a lot of COMPLAINING about the level of play from the tour (from MYSELF included).

But isn’t it sort of great that Nadal and especially Djokovic are exposing this?

It means we don't have to listen to casuals talking up the absolute waste of a tour we have atm like it's anything good:
  • I would rather everyone be aware that AdM is a weaponless mug extraordinaire than think he’s the shining light of Aussie tennis / part of a new generation of great baseliners. And thanks to Djokovic, everyone knows he sucks (y)
  • I would rather that - instead of saying Alcaraz is redefining tennis and taking it to a new level like Morgado and Navratilova and co were doing - people had to temper their expectations of him once a 35 year old Nadal with a rib injury showed he was a hype job at Indian Wells
  • I would rather that people not compare Tsitsipas and his gross BH and RoS to someone like Federer, just because they both have OHBHs. Even Oldererer never went 0-10 back to back vs Djokovic
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But are they? "The young top players are omazeng, the aging ATGs are simply better than evah" seems to be a prevalent mindset in the whole wide tennis world. It's not like Djokodal have set to dispell the myth.
 
It still seemed more enjoyable in 2017-2019 because the big 3 were still a thing and Nadal's level was still very high in particular on clay.

Felt like Thiem would actually challenge too quite regularly and could actually beat them.
 
It's called evolution. Professor Lew taught us all about it. It's unfortunate that he's not here anymore, since he evolved into a pro tennis coach. He had to move on.

20 year old Diane Parry, who's currently ranked 108th in the WTA, would win a CYGS in the ATP in 2006, destroying Federer, Nadal, Federer, and Federer in straight sets at the AO, FO, WI, and USO respectively. Most grade school players today are playing at a much higher level than Federer or Sampras ever achieved.

The reason Thiem fell off was because the field evolved too much. It has nothing to do with all of his injuries.
 
But are they? "The young top players are omazeng, the aging ATGs are simply better than evah" seems to be a prevalent mindset in the whole wide tennis world. It's not like Djokodal have set to dispell the myth.
I think this latest slam was a bit of a watershed moment, a 35 year old guy with an injury winning 5 matches in a row in straight sets at a slam. Even the Tennis Podcast basically took a **** all over Tsitsipas' performance in the final, calling him out for terrible play on big points and a crap forehand, and went in hard on Rublev, Ruud etc in recent weeks for a lack of belief before they even step on court. I saw articles on the BBC and in the UK press basically saying "why the **** can't the young guys beat Djokovic"? I think what we will see this year is people getting sick of this stuff and sullen about the next gen and their chances.

People who were already fans of Tsitsipas, Ruud etc will naturally feel differently, but for casual fans outside of their own home countries there aren't many illusions left any more
 
It still seemed more enjoyable in 2017-2019 because the big 3 were still a thing and Nadal's level was still very high in particular on clay.

Felt like Thiem would actually challenge too quite regularly and could actually beat them.
We didn't know how lucky we were with 17-19 in retrospect. 19 was where it felt like we were on the cusp because the young guys actually started getting regular Bo3 wins against the Big 3
 
It still seemed more enjoyable in 2017-2019 because the big 3 were still a thing and Nadal's level was still very high in particular on clay.

Felt like Thiem would actually challenge too quite regularly and could actually beat them.
2017 outside of Fed’s AO-IW and Nadal’s RG was horrific. 2018 had some Thiem/Zverev moments and of course the epic at Wimby but again, mostly horrific.
 
We didn't know how lucky we were with 17-19 in retrospect. 19 was where it felt like we were on the cusp because the young guys actually started getting regular Bo3 wins against the Big 3
I think a lot of tennis fan outside forums who don't really debate probably did.
 
We didn't know how lucky we were with 17-19 in retrospect. 19 was where it felt like we were on the cusp because the young guys actually started getting regular Bo3 wins against the Big 3
Could have done with Murray and Stan but were got Nadal and Fed back and Djokovic came back later.

Felt like Stan could make a mini comeback in 2019 too but after covid he fell back.
 
I think this latest slam was a bit of a watershed moment, a 35 year old guy with an injury winning 5 matches in a row in straight sets at a slam. Even the Tennis Podcast basically took a **** all over Tsitsipas' performance in the final, calling him out for terrible play on big points and a crap forehand, and went in hard on Rublev, Ruud etc in recent weeks for a lack of belief before they even step on court. I saw articles on the BBC and in the UK press basically saying "why the **** can't the young guys beat Djokovic"? I think what we will see this year is people getting sick of this stuff and sullen about the next gen and their chances.

People who were already fans of Tsitsipas, Ruud etc will naturally feel differently, but for casual fans outside of their own home countries there aren't many illusions left any more
Heck im pretty open minded I dont even mind if they lose. But like maybe put up some competition and act like you can compete? Take a set? Right now its like watching a navy seal beat up a 10 year old.
 
I think this latest slam was a bit of a watershed moment, a 35 year old guy with an injury winning 5 matches in a row in straight sets at a slam. Even the Tennis Podcast basically took a **** all over Tsitsipas' performance in the final, calling him out for terrible play on big points and a crap forehand, and went in hard on Rublev, Ruud etc in recent weeks for a lack of belief before they even step on court. I saw articles on the BBC and in the UK press basically saying "why the **** can't the young guys beat Djokovic"? I think what we will see this year is people getting sick of this stuff and sullen about the next gen and their chances.

People who were already fans of Tsitsipas, Ruud etc will naturally feel differently, but for casual fans outside of their own home countries there aren't many illusions left any more

You think too highly of the uncultured masses I reckon, sadly enough. They will always buy the shiniest narrative by and large.
 
When I go to pro tournaments in person, the level of tennis still seems pretty high - faster shots/serves, many with high spin, quicker movement to play defense, better net ability/finesse than 10 years ago etc. I don’t see a drop off in quality and if anything, I would say that the level between #30-#100 in rankings is probably consistently higher than it used to be.

The younger players struggle to beat two old guys who are pretty good especially in Best of 5 Slams, but they are beating them more in Masters tournaments than the previous generation did.
 
Part of the problem could be that Djokovic has improved in many areas to make up for his decline in some areas and is mentally stronger than he used to be. Probably a similar case could be made for Nadal on slow courts.

Except when playing Nadal on clay, I felt like he was too passive between 2012-2014. That worked to win smaller tournaments, stay #1 and get him into Slam finals. But he ended up in a lot of close matches in Slam finals/semis against the best players like Federer, Nadal, Murray, Wawrinka due to not being more aggressive and lost several of those matches in that period. His serve was also not as reliable to get him out of trouble under pressure and I don’t think he had the mental belief that he was better than Federer, Nadal, Murray yet.

I think in 2015-16, Becker had improved his serve, he started hitting with more topspin which reduced his errors while playing offensively hitting the ball more on the rise and he started playing more aggressively. This resulted in a couple of unbelievable years where he started believing no one could touch him when he played well and after his slump in 2H2016-1H2018, he seems to have retained that confidence. I think that confidence can be shaken only by Nadal on clay.

Compared to 2015, his FH is faster/bigger but with less spin, his BH is prone to more errors, his movement is not as good, his serve is better/more precise/bigger on big points, his return is as good, his net game is better and his variety/slice is better. So, what he has lost in movement, BH reliability and FH spin has been compensated in other areas. Physically, I think his speed and change of direction is slightly worse than his peak, but his endurance is still there and he knows how to manage his mental (wolf?) energy better in a long match to peak at the end. He also plans strategy better for different opponents using video analysis/stats while he used to play somewhat the same way in all his matches in the past - I think that is an improvement on tour for all the top players whose coaches study videos and stats of opponents more. He also now has the aura of being a 22-Slam GOAT contender along with long winning streaks at the AO/FO which makes it tougher for opponents to have the belief they can beat him at Slams.

So, is he better than in 2015-16? If you look only at his baseline game, I would say not as he was at a BOAT level in those days. But, is he as tough to beat? The answer to that question might be that he is almost as tough to beat as at his peak because of all the mental/confidence/strategy gains in addition to better serves, more variety, bigger FH when needed and more confident net finishes. A better serve under pressure can make up for a lot of decline in other areas as tennis is a very serve/return oriented sport.
 
When I go to pro tournaments in person, the level of tennis still seems pretty high - faster shots/serves, many with high spin, quicker movement to play defense, better net ability/finesse than 10 years ago etc. I don’t see a drop off in quality and if anything, I would say that the level between #30-#100 in rankings is probably consistently higher than it used to be.

The younger players struggle to beat two old guys who are pretty good especially in Best of 5 Slams, but they are beating them more in Masters tournaments than the previous generation did.
Well lord I hope so. It would even be more pathetic if the young guys lost the same amount, in regular tournaments against the two old farts than the middle generation did. Heck the two old farts barely play the other tournaments now.
 
Part of the problem could be that Djokovic has improved in many areas to make up for his decline in some areas and is mentally stronger than he used to be. Probably a similar case could be made for Nadal on slow courts.
Really part of the problem is the young guys stink. Look, other than Alcaraz most of these guys cant put in a months worth of consistent tennis even if the old dudes aint playing.
 
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Based on recent results you can't really lump Nadal with Djokovic in this one. Nadal lost to more next gen players than Djokovic did who only lost to Rune in Paris Masters final, while Nadal lost to Tiafoe, Tommy Paul, Norrie, De Minaur and McDonald. Djokovic beat all the next gen players he faced after Paris Masters final.
 
Based on recent results you can't really lump Nadal with Djokovic in this one. Nadal lost to more next gen players than Djokovic did who only lost to Rune in Paris Masters final, while Nadal lost to Tiafoe, Tommy Paul, Norrie, De Minaur and McDonald. Djokovic beat all the next gen players he faced after Paris Masters final.
Yes, but that's because Nadal's level dropped like a rock, not because the Next Gen have improved and only Djokovic can stop them.
 
Yes, but that's because Nadal's level dropped like a rock, not because the Next Gen have improved and only Djokovic can stop them.
Im halfway convinced, that's when these people play each other after the old guys retire they will just meet in slams and call it draw.
 
I dont think you should ever be exposed by 35-36 year olds (regardless of their greatness) when you're 10-15 years younger. You should win the majority of the matches. You definitely shouldn't be going 0-10.

24/25 year olds should be beating Mid-late 30s guys 8 or 9 times out of 10. They got 10 years less mileage and entering the peaks of their career physically. At that age, you should have twice the stamina, speed, explosion, etc.
 
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I dont think you should ever be exposed by 35-36 year olds (regardless of their greatness) when you're 10-15 years younger. You should win the majority of the matches. You definitely shouldn't be going 0-10.

24/25 year olds should be beating Mid-late 30s guys 8 or 9 times out of 10. They got 10 years less mileage and entering the peaks of their career physically. At that age, you should have twice the stamina, speed, explosion, etc.
Perhaps we've overestimated the importance of fitness and endurance in tennis? Maybe racket skills are still the most important
 
Throwing pearls before swine.
Good to see trolls don't demotivate you writing here

Part of the problem could be that Djokovic has improved in many areas to make up for his decline in some areas and is mentally stronger than he used to be. Probably a similar case could be made for Nadal on slow courts.

When I go to pro tournaments in person, the level of tennis still seems pretty high - faster shots/serves, many with high spin, quicker movement to play defense, better net ability/finesse than 10 years ago etc. I don’t see a drop off in quality and if anything, I would say that the level between #30-#100 in rankings is probably consistently higher than it used to be.

The younger players struggle to beat two old guys who are pretty good especially in Best of 5 Slams, but they are beating them more in Masters tournaments than the previous generation did.
In this day &age I wouldn't call super athlete like Djokovic old. At least ,not until we see sharp decline in his game&athletic abilities.
Although team competition there is another sports giant at age 35
who just won World Cup with his teammates, title he didn't win till now ,playing brilliantly as leader of his squad amazing sports fans time &time again
 
Zverev has played in 22 slams since 2017, Tsitsipas 20 slams since 2018, and Medvedev 15 slams since 2019 (the years each made a big final). Of these 57 slam appearances, only 15 were matches against Nadalovic (two wins). That leaves 42 losses in BO5 to someone other than Nadalovic for three elite CurrentGens.

So, the issue isn't really that they're being exposed by Nadalovic. They're being exposed by everyone...including themselves.
 
Perhaps we've overestimated the importance of fitness and endurance in tennis? Maybe racket skills are still the most important
First of all overstimated the so-called "decline" of Djokovic and many other sportspeople around age 35 these days. It's a trend in all sports now. Fitness is important though, but they still have it. Djokovic easily beats the "Next Gen" in fitness. Pure endurance in terms of running is indeed overrated I think. Even in a five-setter players run only about a third of which a football (soccer) player runs in a normal game.

Also my own experience with tennis and football showed me that tennis isn't THAT exhausting and rather easy to recover from. 15 minutes of non-stop indoor football with running back and forth can be totally exhausting, while a five-setter in tennis even against a better player never broke me down physically.
 
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