If/when Federer is overtaken in slams, will he still be the GOAT?

Will he or not?

  • yes

    Votes: 35 27.6%
  • no

    Votes: 53 41.7%
  • it depends

    Votes: 39 30.7%

  • Total voters
    127
#52
That's why I don't see rafa as greater than novak as it is right now. ok 2 more slams but less YE # 1, less weeks on top, less (no) WTF, losing h2h, no 4 in a row, no completed big tournaments, no points record, no season as noles 2015. ect .. RG can anyway maybe change it.
Yeah I see Nole as currently greater overall than Rafa as well.

Nadal will always be the undisputed clay goat though, probably for all time. Overall goats will change over time but Rafa will hold the clay records until the sun burns out.
 
#53
It really depends! If Novak wins CYGS this or next season in addition to olympic gold and then win 3 or 4 more after that he is the GOAT...if he fails to capture CYGS, but will manage to win 21 or 22 slams he will have to keep playing and reaching gs finals until 2022 or 2023 to become the GOAT...in Nadal's case it will depend on which slams will bring him there...if he wins 3 or 4 more RGs and only one GS outside of that he isn't the GOAT, if he gets there by winning 1 RG and 4 or 5 GS tournaments outside of RG, then he is the GOAT...
 
#54
It really depends! If Novak wins CYGS this or next season in addition to olympic gold and then win 3 or 4 more after that he is the GOAT...if he fails to capture CYGS, but will manage to win 21 or 22 slams he will have to keep playing and reaching gs finals until 2022 or 2023 to become the GOAT...in Nadal's case it will depend on which slams will bring him there...if he wins 3 or 4 more RGs and only one GS outside of that he isn't the GOAT, if he gets there by winning 1 RG and 4 or 5 GS tournaments outside of RG, then he is the GOAT...
Of course, if federer already has 2 CYGS and 2 OG gold in single, then nole must have a CYGS and OG gold to match him. but wait ...:unsure:
 
#55
Well whoever finishes their career with the most slams will be considered that GOAT. Most general people or journalists don't care about masters or other events.
If Nadal finishes with 23 slams, then he will be called the GOAT regardless of what everyone else here thinks. The same goes for Djokovic.
 
#56
It really depends! If Novak wins CYGS this or next season in addition to olympic gold and then win 3 or 4 more after that he is the GOAT...if he fails to capture CYGS, but will manage to win 21 or 22 slams he will have to keep playing and reaching gs finals until 2022 or 2023 to become the GOAT...in Nadal's case it will depend on which slams will bring him there...if he wins 3 or 4 more RGs and only one GS outside of that he isn't the GOAT, if he gets there by winning 1 RG and 4 or 5 GS tournaments outside of RG, then he is the GOAT...
Why does it matter what slam it is? Why isn't Fed penalized for most of his slams at Wimby? Or Djokovic for having only 1 RG ?

This stat works both ways. The FO is just as relevant as Wimbledon as a slam.
 
#57
Of course, if federer already has 2 CYGS and 2 OG gold in single, then nole must have a CYGS and OG gold to match him. but wait ...:unsure:
Federer's strongest counter argument is his career longevity as well as crazy streak records! To match that let alone surpass Novak will HAVE to win CYGS in additional to winning 21st grand slam in order to counter Federer's resume as tennis GOAT...
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
#58
Why does it matter what slam it is? Why isn't Fed penalized for most of his slams at Wimby? Or Djokovic for having only 1 RG ?

This stat works both ways. The FO is just as relevant as Wimbledon as a slam.
8/20 of Federer's slams are at Wimbledon e.g. 40% e.g. not most.

The FO is indeed as relevant as any slam but there's certainly more balance to Federer/Djokovic's resume which arguably counts for quite a bit when talking about the Greatest of all Time rather than just the Greatest on Clay.
 
#59
8/20 of Federer's slams are at Wimbledon e.g. 40% e.g. not most.

The FO is indeed as relevant as any slam but there's certainly more balance to Federer/Djokovic's resume which arguably counts for quite a bit when talking about the Greatest of all Time rather than just the Greatest on Clay.
What balance? 1 clay slam each says their balance is all HC and some W slams.

1 out of 20, or 1 out of 15 isn't very 'balanced' .

Even Nadal has more Wimbledons than they have FO titles.
 
#60
It really depends! If Novak wins CYGS this or next season in addition to olympic gold and then win 3 or 4 more after that he is the GOAT...if he fails to capture CYGS, but will manage to win 21 or 22 slams he will have to keep playing and reaching gs finals until 2022 or 2023 to become the GOAT...in Nadal's case it will depend on which slams will bring him there...if he wins 3 or 4 more RGs and only one GS outside of that he isn't the GOAT, if he gets there by winning 1 RG and 4 or 5 GS tournaments outside of RG, then he is the GOAT...
Shouldn't Novak have to do all that while playing left-handed and on his knees?
 
#61
Why does it matter what slam it is? Why isn't Fed penalized for most of his slams at Wimby? Or Djokovic for having only 1 RG ?

This stat works both ways. The FO is just as relevant as Wimbledon as a slam.
Because distribution matters! It shows that player dominates the whole field on all surfaces or at least on 2 of 3 surfaces! Almost all GOAT contenders (except for Laver, though we shouldn't blame the dude, since he was banned from competing at grand slams in 60's) have balanced or nearly balanced slam distribution! Sampras won USO 5 times and WC 7 times (that is 2 surfaces) in addition to 2 AO, 7 on grass and 7 on HC! Borg won 6 RG titles and 5 WC (so thats 6 on clay and 5 on grass)! Federer won 5 USO, 6 AO and 8 WC titles, so 8 grass court and 11 HC titles in total! Djokovic won 7 AO, 4 WC and 3 USO titles and if he wins CYGS this year he will be at 7-2-5-4, which is better than Sampras! Nadal if he wins 15 RG titles and only 1 GS title outside of that will be either at 2-15-2-3, 1-15-3-3 or 1-15-2-4! In either case its more than 10+ GS titles dificit and is terrible distribution! However if he wins say 1 RG and 3 or 4 USO titles he will be at either 1-12-2-6 or 1-12-2-7 (and 7 is an all-time equalling USO tournament record!), which is much better dsitribution (he will still have almost or exactly TWICE as many RG titles as USO titles in that hypothetical scenario, but at least it won't look as bad as more than thrice as many RG titles as USO titles)
 
#63
Lol at people voting "It depends".

Everytime a Nadal or Djokovic fan claims their favorite player to be the GOAT, Federer fans run to remember the number 20, the Grand Slam count.

But if Federer is surpassed, then the Grand Slam count is no longer relevant. What a double standard. They change the GOAT criteria just to suit Federer.

Also, no one is gonna consider Federer as the GOAT if Nadal and/or Djokovic surpass him. How can Federer be the GOAT with less Grand Slams than Nadal/Djokovic and a losing H2H against them? The age excuse is ridiculous, when prime Federer has lost at age 26 at Wimbledon 2008 or age 27 at the Australian Open 2009. Djokovic also leads Federer 4-2 in Grand Slams between 2010 and 2012, and Federer was in good form those years.
I voted "it depends". I'd give it to Djokovic, but maybe not to Nadal. (because he's a lefty and I'm a righty)
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
#64
It's depends is the only correct answer. While slam count is the most important criteria, but it's not the only one that is important in evaluating a player's placement in ATG.


* Number of Major Titles won
* Overall performance at Grand Slam Events
* Player Ranking
* Performance at ATP/WTA events
* Performance(Win/loss record) at Davis & Fed Cup events
* Records held or broken(i.e. Consecutive winning streaks)
* Intangibles(Overall contribution to tennis)
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
#65
What balance? 1 clay slam each says their balance is all HC and some W slams.

1 out of 20, or 1 out of 15 isn't very 'balanced' .

Even Nadal has more Wimbledons than they have FO titles.
65% of Nadal's slams come at one venue, he also has just the one AO title....so not very balanced. I would say 8-6-5-1 and 7-4-3-1 is clearly more balanced than 11-3-2-1.
 
#66
It depends.

If either Nadal or Djokovic do it, probably they will be the GOAT. However, if some new kid does it without the weeks at #1, a good rival, any tour-wide dominance, or YEC titles, I don't think his record will be well-rounded enough to be GOAT.

Especially not if they don't have the CGS.
 
#67
It's depends is the only correct answer. While slam count is the most important criteria, but it's not the only one that is important in evaluating a player's placement in ATG.


* Number of Major Titles won
* Overall performance at Grand Slam Events
* Player Ranking
* Performance at ATP/WTA events
* Performance(Win/loss record) at Davis & Fed Cup events
* Records held or broken(i.e. Consecutive winning streaks)
* Intangibles(Overall contribution to tennis)
LMAO at the last one! You can;t be serious...and Davis Cup...really now? You are such a clown! LOL
 
#68
Lol at people voting "It depends".

Everytime a Nadal or Djokovic fan claims their favorite player to be the GOAT, Federer fans run to remember the number 20, the Grand Slam count.

But if Federer is surpassed, then the Grand Slam count is no longer relevant. What a double standard. They change the GOAT criteria just to suit Federer.

Also, no one is gonna consider Federer as the GOAT if Nadal and/or Djokovic surpass him. How can Federer be the GOAT with less Grand Slams than Nadal/Djokovic and a losing H2H against them? The age excuse is ridiculous, when prime Federer has lost at age 26 at Wimbledon 2008 or age 27 at the Australian Open 2009. Djokovic also leads Federer 4-2 in Grand Slams between 2010 and 2012, and Federer was in good form those years.
Correct. It is a shocking double standard from some posters.

As someone who has been on this board a long time, I have witnessed the 17> or 20> etc response to whatever anyone said about who is the greatest.

Now it's "other things matter too"

It is staggering. Almost takes my breath away the hypocrisy.
 
#70
Federer's strongest counter argument is his career longevity as well as crazy streak records! To match that let alone surpass Novak will HAVE to win CYGS in additional to winning 21st grand slam in order to counter Federer's resume as tennis GOAT...

who cares about F or SF streaks. nole has 4 slam wins in a row! That's all that counts for GOAT candidates. 3 x 3+ slams streaks, 3-0 in 3 slam finals in a row. best year in open era, w2015-rg2016 (4 slams, WTF, 5 masters - 16.950p), best season (2015 - 3 slams, WTF, 6 masters), best (if you look at the quality) wins streak, 43. has completed all 1000+ tournaments. positive h2h with all big4. Federer is far behind nole in the dominance of the whole tour and all oponents.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
#74
LMAO at the last one! You can;t be serious...and Davis Cup...really now? You are such a clown! LOL
Yeah and all the tennis experts around the globe are clowns too.since that is their established criteria.:rolleyes:

I'm assuming you think it's Davis Cup titles which it isn't(person who gave you a like didn't know either).
It's the win/loss percentage at Davis Cup.
 

upchuck

Professional
#75
If Djokovic equals Federer's slam total, he's the GOAT. Nadal probably has to win at least one more major than Federer to make it without question that he's the GOAT.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
#76
Counting "intangibles" is really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

This is not a ballerina contest.
Being a role model for the kids, great humanitarian, charity works, sportsmanship, etc. are important if you are one of the superstar athlete in your respective sport.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
#78
What makes "normal" normal exactly?! Because the way you put it, instead of Federer being honest and open with his opinion .. he had to be false and hypocrite!! To me this seems crazy and wild!!! Sadly modern press and interviews ended up just for your liking, safe and neutral.
If you are a good man, what I said would be your opinion: 1) I regret that a player had to retire, 2) I wish him well. You can have all sorts of opinions and being honest about those opinions does not necessarily mean that you are a good man. You are clever enough to know that expressing openly some opinions could even be a criminal act.
 
#83
just like there are multiple original souls who maintain arguments as of now that Federer isn't really goat, it won't be all that hard to come up with arguments in the scenario where someone else passes his slam count either.

nadal --> mucho mucho clay vulture, zero christmas exo, time at #1
djokovic --> would have racked up, what, 9 of his 21 slams in his 30s, in all likelihood at a much denser rate in his 30s than in what appeared to be his athletic prime where he had several consecutive one-slam seasons. In what is already starting to look like an unprecedented practical joke of an era w/r/t the under-30 gens, this career trajectory might end up making all 04-07 jokes pale by comparison.

there, the stock arguments are already made, ready for use. no end in sight for silly ttw wars about favorite male idols.
 
#87
Depends. Nadal is out of the race for me - no WTF, no prolonged domination, poor consistency, mega clay skewed resume, regularly no. 2 in his era. He can’t make it, needs 23 at least.

Nole has a better shout but he needs 5 more at least. Still wouldn’t ne unanimous.
 
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#89
Some of the same guys who contend Fed is the GOAT because of the Slam record are arguing Graf is GOAT over Serena despite the Slam record.

Same thing will happen when Nadal surpasses the record
 
#90
Depends. Nadal is out of the race for me - no WTF, no prolonged domination, poor consistency, mega clay skewed resume, regularly no. 2 in his era. He can’t make it, needs 23 at least.

Nole has a better shout but he needs 5 more at least. Still wouldn’t ne unanimous.

soo, rafa must have at least 3 slams more than federer to be equal, because he is after him in most of the other (except h2h). but nole must have at least as slams as federer regardless if he gets over him in everything else important.
:rolleyes:
 
#91
soo, rafa must have at fleast 3 slams more than federer to be equal, because he is after him in most of the other (except h2h). but nole must have at least as slams as federer regardless if he gets over him in everything else important.
:rolleyes:
?? Where did you get this from? I swear some of you Djoko fanatics are half-literate at best. The premise is number of GS. As of right now Nole has nothing over Roger, just a few subcategories of the most important stuff. With their current resumes he’d need to at least equal the GS count to be in the$conversation.
 
#92
?? Where did you get this from? I swear some of you Djoko fanatics are half-literate at best. The premise is number of GS. As of right now Nole has nothing over Roger, just a few subcategories of the most important stuff. With their current resumes he’d need to at least equal the GS count to be in the$conversation.
you wrote that rafa must have at least 23, which is 3 more than federer, and that novak must have at least 20, which is as many as federer has.
even though novak has the most impresive streaks of wins (43) and slams in a row (4 as for now), points record (16.950), best year (W2015-RG2016), best season (2015), positive h2h, has completed all major tournaments, etc. and if he comes to 1 or 2 slams less than federer he will surely have more YE#1 (equal as now and has allready more ITF champ) and weeks on top and much more masters. so? it is a bit of double standard.
 
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#93
you wrote that rafa must have at least 23, which is 3 more than federer, and that novak must have at least 20, which is as many as federer has.
even though novak has the most impresive streaks of wins (43) and slams in a row (4 as for now), points record (16.950), best year (W2015-RG2016), best season (2015), positive h2h etc. and if he comes to 1 or 2 slams less than federer he will surely have more YE#1 (equal as now and has allready more ITF champ) and weeks on top and much more masters. so? it is a bit of double standard.
Your reading skills are atrocious. Come back to me when you finish grammar school because this is pointless.
 

Apun94

Hall of Fame
#94
I mean Federer had the highest peak ever and he was able to sustain it for several years. For me, he is the GOAT even if Novak gets to 30 slams in this pathetic era
 
#95
The Grand Slam count is the most relevant all-time great criterion. Other criteria are just tie-breakers in case two players are tied in Grand Slams.

Grand Slams are more relevant than ATP finals. No amount of ATP finals equal a Grand Slam. Also, the Olympic Gold in singles is equally relevant as the ATP finals and you are failling to mention it.

In sum, if a player overtakes Federer's GS count he has surpassed him. Grand Slams are the most relevant trophies. The GOAT is supposed the best, so he can't not be the best in the most important tournament.
That's one view. Many on these forums believe that all events (weighted of course) should be brought into consideration. For example many on these forums believe that Becker and Edberg rate higher than Wilander, even though Mats has 1 slam title more.
 
#96
If GOAT means most accomplished, most slams etc then yes I’d consider Djokovic GOAT on the above metrics.

Best tennis player I’ve ever seen? Federer. Nadal on clay.

Hopefully the present mug fest ends soon and nextgen can take their place at the top of the game.
 
#98
I mean Federer had the highest peak ever and he was able to sustain it for several years. For me, he is the GOAT even if Novak gets to 30 slams in this pathetic era
I maintain a similar view. Federer destroyed his peers in his early to mid 20s and put up a respectable fight against 2 peaking nextgen ATG in slowed down conditions.

If Nole pushes his way to another 10 slam titles.. yeah sure he’s most accomplished but that won’t make him best player or greatest for me. He had his shot at that in 2012-2014 but blew too many slam matches there.
 
#99
If you are a good man, what I said would be your opinion: 1) I regret that a player had to retire, 2) I wish him well. You can have all sorts of opinions and being honest about those opinions does not necessarily mean that you are a good man. You are clever enough to know that expressing openly some opinions could even be a criminal act.
Oh, so now Federer is a bad man as well as a sub-standard tennis player, according to you?

What about Novak Djokovic then, who has feigned injury/exhaustion during matches, and comes across as a needy child, begging for the spectators' affection?
 
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