If Wilson or Prince.....?

klementine

Hall of Fame
If wilson or prince made a public agreement with the consumer, we will move our manufacturing operations back to America, in doing so we will have to charge 10-20% more for our products. Would we pay for a designed and MADE in America product? This is of course is purely hypothetical, in reality Im sure the quality control would improve only slightly and the price increase would jump about 30-40%.

So.. Lets compromise a 25% increase in price and assume that quality control would improve dramatically, along with the confidence that this product was made in America, adding jobs and tax revenue.

Wilson K90- $200 + 25% = $250

Wislon KBlade- $189 + 25%= $236

Prince Ozone Tour- $179 + %25= $223

I for one would not hesitate to pay for a product that was designed and made in America. Anyone else?
 

GiveMeGut

New User
I would pay 20-25% more for a racquet, regardless of where it was made, if the manufacturer would guarantee the weight/balance/flex within a defined range. Say +/- 1 gram in weight, +/- ½ point in balance, and +/- 1 RDC unit in flex.
 

klementine

Hall of Fame
I realize that for the person who has 5, 10, 20 racquets this could be a problem. I myself, am the the proud owner of one racquet and dont really understand why people buy more than two.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
I realize that for the person who has 5, 10, 20 racquets this could be a problem. I myself, am the the proud owner of one racquet and dont really understand why people buy more than two.
Therein lies the problem. I would go broke if prices went up by that much as I buy lots of racquets, as do many people on this board. (Have you seen skraggle's collection?)

Frankly, I don't think the quality would be any better if production was moved to the U.S. In fact, it might be worse. I think back when racquets were made in the U.S., the quality was indeed worse than the racquets made in China today.
 

0d1n

Hall of Fame
I realize that for the person who has 5, 10, 20 racquets this could be a problem. I myself, am the the proud owner of one racquet and dont really understand why people buy more than two.

That's because you play rarely or at a lower level (i.e don't break strings, and don't need different string tensions for different conditions).
I think any adult who plays "seriously" (i.e at a reasonably high level) and at least 3 times a week needs at least 3 identical (...similar...same model) rackets.
I'm not an American so I don't have the "made in America" bias.
Like "GiveMeGut" in post #2 I would pay more for better quality/quality control, not for "made in Anywhere" products. These options are pretty much available now though ... with companies like Fischer and Vantage...
 
If we don't buy from the Chinese, how will they be able to buy our Treasury Bills to sustain our economy? And, no, I don't think your plan will fly. American cars often cost LESS than their Asian counterparts but there isn't great enthusiasm for them, other than trucks.
 

klementine

Hall of Fame
That's because you play rarely or at a lower level (i.e don't break strings, and don't need different string tensions for different conditions).
I think any adult who plays "seriously" (i.e at a reasonably high level) and at least 3 times a week needs at least 3 identical (...similar...same model) rackets.
I'm not an American so I don't have the "made in America" bias.
Like "GiveMeGut" in post #2 I would pay more for better quality/quality control, not for "made in Anywhere" products. These options are pretty much available now though ... with companies like Fischer and Vantage...

There is a difference between passion and obsession. How do you know my level? or How many times I play a week? I enjoy the game of tennis, have been playing for 18 years (since I was 10), I try to play 3-5 times a week, belong to a club and sign up for and qualify for local tournies. Lendl was the first mad man who first started to change racquets every time balls were changed, Davydenko recently won miami with one racquet. But the pros are different, I can understand why they would need more than one or two racquets, but for us 1 or 2 racquets should suffice, we are not competing for large sums of money, wimbeldon or garros, this is not what we do for a living. For us, who have jobs, families and other greater responsibilities. Its mostly mental, I've never seen a player lose a match beacuse his gear was inadequate or win a match because of superior gear, its all about confidence and footwork. So, for those of us who dont earn a living on points (everyone on these boards), 1 or 2 racquets will get the job done, anything more is an obsession, compulsive in nature. Just my opinion.
 

themitchmann

Hall of Fame
It would be nice to support the American economy...especially now. Quality control is up to the manufacturer, so it doesn't matter where the frames are produced. I think all companies should tighten up their QC as consumers are becoming more educated about the product and benefits of matching frames.

I would be will to pay more if QC improved and production was moved to the states.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
There is a difference between passion and obsession. How do you know my level? or How many times I play a week? I enjoy the game of tennis, have been playing for 18 years (since I was 10), I try to play 3-5 times a week, belong to a club and sign up for and qualify for local tournies. Lendl was the first mad man who first started to change racquets every time balls were changed, Davydenko recently won miami with one racquet. But the pros are different, I can understand why they would need more than one or two racquets, but for us 1 or 2 racquets should suffice, we are not competing for large sums of money, wimbeldon or garros, this is not what we do for a living. For us, who have jobs, families and other greater responsibilities. Its mostly mental, I've never seen a player lose a match beacuse his gear was inadequate or win a match because of superior gear, its all about confidence and footwork. So, for those of us who dont earn a living on points (everyone on these boards), 1 or 2 racquets will get the job done, anything more is an obsession, compulsive in nature. Just my opinion.
Serious players break a lot of strings. You don't want to be in the middle of a match and break the strings in your 1 or 2 racquets and be forced to default the match because you have no more racquets left, right?

Also, serious players like to have many racquets in their bags perhaps with different string tensions (and even different types of strings) so that they can use the best string set-up for the particular conditions for that day. Heat, humidity, wind, court speed, how and how hard your opponent hits, etc. can all have an effect on how your racquet plays depending on the strings. That's why I like to string my racquets at a few different tensions and even with a few different types of strings. It really does make a difference. And I don't know which set-up will work best for me on that particular day in that particular match until I start playing with a few of them in the warm-up or even during the first couple of games.

You want to go into battle with as much ammo as possible, don't you?
 

JRstriker12

Hall of Fame
Really this “Made in America” thing is archaic in today’s globalized economy. Wilson isn’t even an “American” Company anymore.

While the Wilson HQ is in Chicago, it’s a “global” brand owned by Amer Sports which was founded in…………..

Finland!

http://www.wilson.com/wilson/home/a...older_id=9852723697226089&bmUID=1210100843765

Wilson is an Amer Sports Company. Amer Sports is based in Helsinki, Finland.

http://www.amersports.com/about/in_brief/history/
http://www.amersports.com/about/in_brief/history/#5acae4654f2d3fe45f5b0b48460bbb36

So why would Amer sports care to move all Wilson Manufacturing to America when it already owns a large part of the American tennis racket market and also sells rackets across the globe?

Looks like Prince is still mostly an American company, though it’s currently owned by management and by an Equity fund, so no telling where all those investors are located (http://www.hoovers.com/prince-tennis/--ID__132709--/free-co-profile.xhtml). Interesting fact, it was once owned by Benetton clothing company.

I still question the move to Made in America since that label only appeals to one group of consumers across the global market. I don’t think most consumers are even concerned about where stuff is made. Mostly American consumers care about price. If we really cared about where things are manufactured, Wal-Mart probably wouldn’t be the largest retail store on earth.

Also – how do we really know that a 10-20% increase would really cover the extra cost of manufacturing rackets in the US? Without all the needed information, we don’t know if it would be more or less than that.
 
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Satch

Hall of Fame
.......Also – how do we really know that a 10-20% increase would really cover the extra cost of manufacturing rackets in the US? Without all the needed information, we don’t know if it would be more or less than that.



This is actually true, I think that Wilson spends only about 5$ per racket when producing in china.
Workforce is so cheap there… And not to mention the material it's silly. I think that Chinese workers have only about 40$ per month salary. Compare that to USA worker and its all clear. Also building the factory in Asia is much cheaper than in America, it’s also much easier to organize there for many reasons.
Anyway I think that prices would go ~100% higher per racquet IF they chose to go to USA and to hold their profit…
Also 90% of companies, and Wilson is surely a market leader, throw about 70% of money from their sales on marketing.
If there is no marketing and big contracts like that Federer one, kfactor would cost around 100$.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
^^^Graphite is not cheap. That's probably the biggest component of the cost to make a racquet, not labor. That's why the price of a tennis racquet went from $25 to $250 when they first switched from making wood racquets to graphite racquets even though the amount of labor required to make either one is probably roughly the same.
 

Racketdesign

Semi-Pro
Really this “Made in America” thing is archaic in today’s globalized economy. Wilson isn’t even an “American” Company anymore.

While the Wilson HQ is in Chicago, it’s a “global” brand owned by Amer Sports which was founded in…………..

Finland!

http://www.wilson.com/wilson/home/a...older_id=9852723697226089&bmUID=1210100843765

Wilson is an Amer Sports Company. Amer Sports is based in Helsinki, Finland.

http://www.amersports.com/about/in_brief/history/
http://www.amersports.com/about/in_brief/history/#5acae4654f2d3fe45f5b0b48460bbb36

So why would Amer sports care to move all Wilson Manufacturing to America when it already owns a large part of the American tennis racket market and also sells rackets across the globe?

.


Nicely pointed out !
 

klementine

Hall of Fame
Really this “Made in America” thing is archaic in today’s globalized economy. Wilson isn’t even an “American” Company anymore.

While the Wilson HQ is in Chicago, it’s a “global” brand owned by Amer Sports which was founded in…………..

Finland!

http://www.wilson.com/wilson/home/a...older_id=9852723697226089&bmUID=1210100843765

Wilson is an Amer Sports Company. Amer Sports is based in Helsinki, Finland.

http://www.amersports.com/about/in_brief/history/
http://www.amersports.com/about/in_brief/history/#5acae4654f2d3fe45f5b0b48460bbb36

So why would Amer sports care to move all Wilson Manufacturing to America when it already owns a large part of the American tennis racket market and also sells rackets across the globe?

Looks like Prince is still mostly an American company, though it’s currently owned by management and by an Equity fund, so no telling where all those investors are located (http://www.hoovers.com/prince-tennis/--ID__132709--/free-co-profile.xhtml). Interesting fact, it was once owned by Benetton clothing company.

I still question the move to Made in America since that label only appeals to one group of consumers across the global market. I don’t think most consumers are even concerned about where stuff is made. Mostly American consumers care about price. If we really cared about where things are manufactured, Wal-Mart probably wouldn’t be the largest retail store on earth.

Also – how do we really know that a 10-20% increase would really cover the extra cost of manufacturing rackets in the US? Without all the needed information, we don’t know if it would be more or less than that.

Thank you very much for the info. Carefully researched and appropriately presented.
 

klementine

Hall of Fame
Serious players break a lot of strings. You don't want to be in the middle of a match and break the strings in your 1 or 2 racquets and be forced to default the match because you have no more racquets left, right?

Also, serious players like to have many racquets in their bags perhaps with different string tensions (and even different types of strings) so that they can use the best string set-up for the particular conditions for that day. Heat, humidity, wind, court speed, how and how hard your opponent hits, etc. can all have an effect on how your racquet plays depending on the strings. That's why I like to string my racquets at a few different tensions and even with a few different types of strings. It really does make a difference. And I don't know which set-up will work best for me on that particular day in that particular match until I start playing with a few of them in the warm-up or even during the first couple of games.

You want to go into battle with as much ammo as possible, don't you?

It is valid for someone to carry 4-5+ racquets to an event or tourny. I just chuckle when I see someone carrying that arsenal at the rec courts. When I break a string at a rec court, I just retire and play umpire. Maybe I should buy more racquets.:)
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
It is valid for someone to carry 4-5+ racquets to an event or tourny. I just chuckle when I see someone carrying that arsenal at the rec courts. When I break a string at a rec court, I just retire and play umpire. Maybe I should buy more racquets.:)

71zqqtk.jpg


J
 

klementine

Hall of Fame
^^^Graphite is not cheap. That's probably the biggest component of the cost to make a racquet, not labor. That's why the price of a tennis racquet went from $25 to $250 when they first switched from making wood racquets to graphite racquets even though the amount of labor required to make either one is probably roughly the same.

My main objective was to gauge the people on this board, to get a sense of the overall sentiment. If someone is willing to pay for quality, regardless of where the product was manufactured, or if we are willing to sacrifice quality for expedience and thrift. I know that M.I.A. is not adaptable with how corporate practices and idealogies have progressed globaly, but I wanted to test the waters.
 

Satch

Hall of Fame
^^^Graphite is not cheap. That's probably the biggest component of the cost to make a racquet, not labor. That's why the price of a tennis racquet went from $25 to $250 when they first switched from making wood racquets to graphite racquets even though the amount of labor required to make either one is probably roughly the same.

Actually carbon fiber aka graphite is not gold. It is a stereotype that it’s worth 10x more than wood.
Can you find me a proof of that on some reliable site?
Because what I know cost of carbon fibers themselves and the resin matrix needed to hold them together is about $30 per kg.
So how much carbon is needed for one racket? 200 grams or less. 6$
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Actually carbon fiber aka graphite is not gold. It is a stereotype that it’s worth 10x more than wood.
Can you find me a proof of that on some reliable site?
Because what I know cost of carbon fibers themselves and the resin matrix needed to hold them together is about $30 per kg.
So how much carbon is needed for one racket? 200 grams or less. 6$

200g is only 7 oz. I think there's a lot more than 7 oz. of graphite used to make a K90, which weighs 12 oz. unstrung.

The cost of carbon fiber is $23 per pound. They probably use close to a pound of carbon fiber for each K90 produced due to all the waste and excess that's shed during the production process. Then add in the high cost of some of the other "exotic" materials they often put into tennis racquets these days, such as: Kevlar, HyperCarbon (ultra high modulus graphite), titanium, Aerogel, Microgel, DNX, etc., plus the high cost of some specialized processes like carbon nanotubes, nCode, etc., and the cost of the tennis racquet can really add up.

Aside from the defense aerospace industry and exotic sporting equipment applications, the use of carbon nanofiber composite materials has been severely limited due to the high production costs of carbon fiber, which averages $23 per pound.
http://www.ml.afrl.af.mil/stories/mlb-00378.html
 

HeadPrestige

Professional
at Jroger...

has anyone ever tried to grab a racket out of your bag... just to see if you noticed? I certainly would go for it
 

Racketdesign

Semi-Pro
200g is only 7 oz. I think there's a lot more than 7 oz. of graphite used to make a K90, which weighs 12 oz. unstrung.

The cost of carbon fiber is $23 per pound. They probably use close to a pound of carbon fiber for each K90 produced due to all the waste and excess that's shed during the production process. Then add in the high cost of some of the other "exotic" materials they often put into tennis racquets these days, such as: Kevlar, HyperCarbon (ultra high modulus graphite), titanium, Aerogel, Microgel, DNX, etc., plus the high cost of some specialized processes like carbon nanotubes, nCode, etc., and the cost of the tennis racquet can really add up.

http://www.ml.afrl.af.mil/stories/mlb-00378.html

You're assuming of course that these materials are really inside any given racquet as apposed to a 5 cent sticker on the frame ;0)
 

Bottle Rocket

Hall of Fame
If wilson or prince made a public agreement with the consumer, we will move our manufacturing operations back to America, in doing so we will have to charge 10-20% more for our products. Would we pay for a designed and MADE in America product?

Is this hypothetical? Doesn't really seem like it. Whether people on this board say yes or no to your question doesn't matter much, as the greater majority of people buying rackets has made their decision. This isn't just specific to tennis rackets, it goes for all products.

If we would spend the extra cost for a better product made in the US, we would. Unfortunately, we don't. That is why these rackets are not made in the US. That is why many other things are not made in the US. The decision has been made, America has voted.

Where did the 25% increase come from?

Also, does Wilson make more profit in your hyopthetical situation? If not, why even consider it? If they do make more, that brings up a whole bunch of new questions...

To answer your question, no. I would like to say yes, but in reality, I don't see it happening.
 

klementine

Hall of Fame
This is of course is purely hypothetical, in reality Im sure the quality control would improve only slightly and the price increase would jump about 30-40%.

QUOTE]

Yes. This is an imaginery, fabricated, hypothetical situation. It is not based on realistic figures or presumptions. Just wanted to test the water. Should have done a poll instead. But the thread has quickly jumped subjects, which I'm glad it did, to quality control and production and material costs in the tennis industry. I realize that there are companies that have stricter QC, such as fischer and vantage, but I was more curious to see if the general public (Tennis Talk being a very small minority of the tennis consumer demographic) would pay more for quality. The made in America proposal was a bit optimistic and ignorant.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
And what do those links prove?

I love this quote-

Answer: Hyper Carbon is the name Wilson has given to a specific type of Ultra High Modulus Graphite.

Its a trademarked name.. not a material... The material is in almost all rackets...
That some racquets do indeed contain something other than 100% standard or high modulus graphite?

Some also contain Kevlar, Ultra High Modulus Graphite, and even a speck of titanium (they said closer to 2%, but probably a lot less than that). Some Head racquets used to also contain Twaron, and many older racquets (and some of today's Donnays and Volkls) contain fiberglass.

BTW, I'm not sure how much Microgel is in Head racquets, how much Aerogel is in Dunlop racquets, nor how much DNX is in Volkl/Becker racquets, but all three certainly feel very different from the previous generations of the same model racquets from these manufacturers.
 
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0d1n

Hall of Fame
There is a difference between passion and obsession. How do you know my level? or How many times I play a week? I enjoy the game of tennis, have been playing for 18 years (since I was 10), I try to play 3-5 times a week, belong to a club and sign up for and qualify for local tournies. Lendl was the first mad man who first started to change racquets every time balls were changed, Davydenko recently won miami with one racquet. But the pros are different, I can understand why they would need more than one or two racquets, but for us 1 or 2 racquets should suffice, we are not competing for large sums of money, wimbeldon or garros, this is not what we do for a living. For us, who have jobs, families and other greater responsibilities. Its mostly mental, I've never seen a player lose a match beacuse his gear was inadequate or win a match because of superior gear, its all about confidence and footwork. So, for those of us who dont earn a living on points (everyone on these boards), 1 or 2 racquets will get the job done, anything more is an obsession, compulsive in nature. Just my opinion.

Look...I'm not trying to pick a fight ... but I've seen people lose because of equipment. Usually it's because:
1) Like yourself they have one racket ... they break the strings and then forfeit the game because the opponent can't give them any racket (because of the same reason). That leaves 2 frustrated players ... with maybe a couple of hours left to play
2) Like yourself they have one racket...they break the strings ... they borrow a totally different racket from their opponent or playing partner (in doubles) and they can't play with it worth a sh1t so they lose.

That's about it...because if somebody is playing with their own racket ... it's not the racket that loses the game ... it's the player. Don't give me the "a good player plays well with anything" speech...I know all that, I know a semi-pro will beat an amateur 10 times out of 10 with a frying pan, but I'm talking about similar (identical) levels here...and at similar levels...a guy who plays me with a Prestige (regular racket)...breaks strings and has to play with a Ti s6 will LOSE 9 times out of 10.
I think that 3 rackets is enough for most players. I usually rotate 3 of them. Reason? I play with synthetic strings (multi) and break them on a pretty regular basis. I usually have 2 rackets strung at my reference (usual) tension and one racket strung looser (in the winter) and tighter (in the summer).
If I break strings in one of the "usual" ones, I can pick up the other. During the summer heat ... I may experience problems with control (i.e the ball flies on me) against certain opponents. I then pick up the racket that's strung a bit tighter.
In the winter cold...I do it the other way around ... as strings/balls may feel more "dead" than usual depending on temperature I have the option to pick up the 3rd racket strung a bit looser (for a bit more depth and/or comfort).
I'm sure you'll agree all of the above are logical reasons for needing 3 rackets.
The fact that you've played for the last 18 years says nothing about the level of your play...there are probably loads of people who played for 3-4 years and can run you around the court, depending on their athletic ability, current fitness level and the fact that they may actually PRACTICE sometimes instead of playing sets with the same hitting partners for fun.
I'm not saying this is YOU since I don't know you personally, but I know people who played regularly for the last 30 years and they still play at an EXTREMELY low level...because they play with the same partners...at the same low level and for fun only. They never practice ... and the beer(s) after the game are probably more important for them than the actual tennis game.
The fact that you say you can act as "referee" if you break strings leads me to believe that you are part of one of these groups ... and play mostly doubles.
If I play singles ... only have one racket and break strings in the middle of the first set ... I will have one VERY frustrated playing partner on the other side of the net.
Just some things to think about before mistaking somebody else's passion for "obsession".
 
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Satch

Hall of Fame
And what do those links prove?

I love this quote-

Answer: Hyper Carbon is the name Wilson has given to a specific type of Ultra High Modulus Graphite.

Its a trademarked name.. not a material... The material is in almost all rackets...

this guy is absolutely right...

I mean what those names -ncoded, karophite and hyper means anyway? I will tell you what it means it's called MARKETING...
Today's rackets are same to those that were made 10 or 15 yrs ago, these names are nothing and they surely do not affect de cost of the product.
Anyway 12oz is not the weight of carbon alone, there are Leather grips, grommets, bumpers, stickers, paint, and butt caps all that add weight to racket.
There is no other excusse for rising the prices on rackets today compared to ones from 90's except marketing and they need all those crap names and things to support that actions.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
There is no other excusse for rising the prices on rackets today compared to ones from 90's except marketing and they need all those crap names and things to support that actions.
Adjusted for inflation, the racquets today are actually cheaper than the racquets in the early 90's.

When graphite racquets first came out in the late-70's they cost over $300. Adjusted for inflation, that's like $700-$800 in today's dollars.

There certainly is something other than 100% graphite in many of today's racquets. That's why the older racquets with just 100% graphite felt and played so much better.
 

Satch

Hall of Fame
Adjusted for inflation, the racquets today are actually cheaper than the racquets in the early 90's.

When graphite racquets first came out in the late-70's they cost over $300. Adjusted for inflation, that's like $700-$800 in today's dollars.

There certainly is something other than 100% graphite in many of today's racquets. That's why the older racquets with just 100% graphite felt and played so much better.

i meant to say late 90's not early, for example head PT or prestige classic, or wilson PS...
for sure that in early 90's graphite was something new in production and technology was not so good like it’s now.
but we even can't compare it, considering how cheap the production is in China and Asia now...
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
i meant to say late 90's not early, for example head PT or prestige classic, or wilson PS...
for sure that in early 90's graphite was something new in production and technology was not so good like it’s now.
but we even can't compare it, considering how cheap the production is in China and Asia now...
I have a Wilson product catalog from 1999 in my hands. It lists the PS 6.0 85/95 with a MSRP of $190. Considering inflation over 9 years, that's not any cheaper than the K90 is today.

BTW, graphite production was not something new in the early 90's. They've been making graphite racquets since the late 70's. The Prince Original Graphite (which is still made and sold today) came out in 1978.
 

Satch

Hall of Fame
I have a Wilson product catalog from 2000 in my hands. It lists the PS 6.0 85/95 with a MSRP of $190. Considering inflation over 8 years, that's not any cheaper than the K90 is today.

BTW, graphite production was not something new in the early 90's. They've been making graphite racquets since the late 70's. The Prince Original Graphite (which is still made and sold today) came out in 1978.

that's right but i can bet that graphite is cheaper today than it's used to be in 90's it's very simple, they are selling it more today, for cars, for airplanes and for everything else, so carbon is surley cheaper and technology is better, also there are many different qualities of carbon itself. I don't think that they use the same quality one for let's say F1 bolid or racket.

I don't know for that PS but am sure that head tour was selling for very cheap and their other rackets. Go to TW archive and see.
if hypothetically the prices were the same as they are today they are again in big gain because of much cheaper production... but the prices are not lower today.
 

JRstriker12

Hall of Fame
that's right but i can bet that graphite is cheaper today than it's used to be in 90's it's very simple, they are selling it more today, for cars, for airplanes and for everything else, so carbon is surley cheaper and technology is better, also there are many different qualities of carbon itself. I don't think that they use the same quality one for let's say F1 bolid or racket.

I don't know for that PS but am sure that head tour was selling for very cheap and their other rackets. Go to TW archive and see.
if hypothetically the prices were the same as they are today they are again in big gain because of much cheaper production... but the prices are not lower today.

How can there be a big gain in profit if the prices are the same? If anything, inflation, cost of gas, transportation, etc would ensure that a the profit from a $190 racket from 80's or 90's would be more than the profit off a $190 racket in 2008 dollars.
 

Satch

Hall of Fame
How can there be a big gain in profit if the prices are the same? If anything, inflation, cost of gas, transportation, etc would ensure that a the profit from a $190 racket from 80's or 90's would be more than the profit off a $190 racket in 2008 dollars.

no, he said that the old prices WITH infation calculated are the same as today's K90, and as production is cheaper, logically profit's are better.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
that's right but i can bet that graphite is cheaper today than it's used to be in 90's it's very simple, they are selling it more today, for cars, for airplanes and for everything else, so carbon is surley cheaper and technology is better, also there are many different qualities of carbon itself. I don't think that they use the same quality one for let's say F1 bolid or racket.

I don't know for that PS but am sure that head tour was selling for very cheap and their other rackets. Go to TW archive and see.
if hypothetically the prices were the same as they are today they are again in big gain because of much cheaper production... but the prices are not lower today.
Hmmmm....this racquet is made of graphite and is still very cheap today. Were there that many graphite racquets selling for under $70 in the late-90's? Not that I recall.

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageRCDUNLOP-200P06.html

BTW, my understanding is that carbon fibre has been increasing, not decreasing, in price over the past few years.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
no, he said that the old prices WITH infation calculated are the same as today's K90, and as production is cheaper, logically profit's are better.
How is production cheaper today? :confused:

Racquets were also made in China in 1999. The total cost of production and getting the racquets to market have gone up, not down, since then. Salaries in China have gone up, cost of the materials have gone up, the cost of oil used in the production and transportation of the racquets have gone up, additional costs of stricter environmental controls, etc.

Considering that the K90 has a MAP price of $199, that's actually cheaper than the PS 6.0 85/95 with it's MSRP of $190 back in 1999, and probably more expensive to make now than 9 years ago.
 

Satch

Hall of Fame
Hmmmm....this racquet is made of graphite and is still very cheap today. Were there that many graphite racquets selling for under $70 in the late-90's? Not that I recall.

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageRCDUNLOP-200P06.html


That is Dunlop we were talking about Wilson and head... what is Dunlop’s percentage in today's market? Way smaller than Wilson’s, and Wilson is a market leader and they are dictating the price, Dunlop is challenger and only what they can do is to lower price if they want to compete with Wilson and head. That’s exactly what Dunlop has been doing.
That is exactly what I am trying to say to you, Dunlop is spending way less on marketing, than Wilson. How many lead players have contract with Dunlop and how many with Wilson? How many new models are Wilson introducing how many Dunlop every year.

So you are now writing against yourself what I am trying to say is that rackets should go cheaper and you just found me the proof of company that can sell graphite racket for 70$ and still earn money do you thing that Dunlop is actually lose money on that model?? Cause based on your thinking’s Dunlop is broke already.

Production is cheaper compared to Austria and USA, not to production in China years ago.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
^^^^ And what I'm saying is that racquets are indeed cheaper than they were 10 years ago (in today's dollars).
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
J011yroger

When do u show us a pic with your "new" k90s and your "new" bag??

There were a bunch of the Ks in my KBT thread. I will take a shot of the new bag in the next couple weeks when I get my next batch of frames back from being customized.

J
 

Satch

Hall of Fame
^^^^ And what I'm saying is that racquets are indeed cheaper than they were 10 years ago (in today's dollars).
maybe some of them i can agree, but that's not the rule, some of them are very expensive, and depends on manufacturer like i said on head example
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Right, those are very old racquets that are not even sold anymore and those prices are from a long time ago. Those racquets originally sold for a lot more when they first came out and were in regular production. Once they were discontinued, the prices dropped just like discontinued racquets today are cheaper than a newly released one. For example, this racquet was much more expensive than $69.99 when it first came out like 8 years ago: http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/descpageRCPRINCE-TTW.html

(BTW, "discontinued" means it's no longer being actively marketed as a new model although they can continue to manufacture it.)

The Head Prestige Tour was very expensive back in the mid-90's. Your links show prices from 2002 when none of those were new racquets anymore.
 
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