If you could reverse the outcome of 3 grand slam matches then which 3 would those matches be ?

Speaking about hypotheticals - in your view how would the slam race stand today if Steffi had not had to suffer under her family's awful blackmail scandal in 1990-92?
What do you think, honestly?


I don't know Steffi/Seles, they are too ancient, I have never seen them play even in their old age.
So nothing much say on all this family rubbish


But yes, anyone can say even without watching a single match in 80s or even in 90s that Gunter literally robbed Seles of Goathood.

A Genuine 18-21 slams winner was converted into a 9 slams winning ATG
A 14 Slam winning ATG was converted into a 22 slams winning GOAT contender

This much is clear.
 
Here's my view: I can't say Nadal is finished when 2 of his 3 losses EVER at RG have been to Djok. So for me, right now he's only beatable by one guy. And there's no guarantee that guy even gets to Rafa next year.

Rafa doesn't beat himself like Fed does. I don't see him going down in straight to Medvedev like Djok did (if healthy).

Rafa will be 36 next year during FO ..... That is a very old age.

Yes he is Rafa, the GOAT on that surface, but even then body clock is quite real, Clay is not a surface for guys to win after 35.

Oldest finalists in open era by Slam

AO - on HCs it is still Federer at 36.5 in 2017
FO - Andres Gimono at almost 35 in 70s and Nadal in 2020 at 34.5
W - Federer at almost 38
USO - On HCs this is Agassi at 35

So historically clay is the worst surface to reach finals, wining it ? .... thats why I give him a max of 1 .... not 2...
 
USO 2012 Final.
Wimbledon 08 final. Not because I wanted Fed to win but his epic MP save in the 4th TB be more epic if he won.
RG 13 SF. This match mentally killed Djokovic then he proceeded to lose all big finals for over a year
 
In chronological order, taking into account the so-called butterfly effect:
Wimbledon 2011 F
Australian Open 2012 F
Australian Open 2017 F
 
Rafa will be 36 next year during FO ..... That is a very old age.

Yes he is Rafa, the GOAT on that surface, but even then body clock is quite real, Clay is not a surface for guys to win after 35.

Oldest finalists in open era by Slam

AO - on HCs it is still Federer at 36.5 in 2017
FO - Andres Gimono at almost 35 in 70s and Nadal in 2020 at 34.5
W - Federer at almost 38
USO - On HCs this is Agassi at 35

So historically clay is the worst surface to reach finals, wining it ? .... thats why I give him a max of 1 .... not 2...

Djokovic and Nadal are going to blow all those age records out of the water though. They don't mean much at the moment.
 
Djokovic and Nadal are going to blow all those age records out of the water though. They don't mean much at the moment.
Also if Djokovic didn’t beat Nadal this year then Nadal would have 14 titles. The only player that can beat Nadal even a beaten old version is Djokovic
 
Djokovic and Nadal are going to blow all those age records out of the water though. They don't mean much at the moment.

Djokovic might

Not Nadal, Rafa looks really tired

There is at least a tier difference between them right now in level and even youngsters are ahead of Nadal outside clay.

Nadal has how many FOs in him ? 1 of course .... even guys like @Hitman and @GabeT believe the same, for a reason. .... Nadal outside clay is FINISHED and on clay he has a best of 1 slam left :eek:
 
Also if Djokovic didn’t beat Nadal this year then Nadal would have 14 titles. The only player that can beat Nadal even a beaten old version is Djokovic

exactly. If Rafa faced anyone else, he'd have won the title. Not having Thiem around really hurt Rafa this year.

So when Rafa starts going down to Tsits or someone like that in the QFs then I'll believe he's done.
 
It is wishful thinking to imagine that Nadal will win 16 FOs, 5 USOs and 1 wimbledon in an year when Novak fails :D Reaching 25 slams

These sort of dreams wont come true though
 
exactly. If Rafa faced anyone else, he'd have won the title. Not having Thiem around really hurt Rafa this year.

So when Rafa starts going down to Tsits or someone like that in the QFs then I'll believe he's done.

Is there any guarantee that Zverev wont beat Rafa next year ?

Or Stefan won't beat him ???

Both of them are great on clay and they are 24 and 23, next year they will be at their absolute peak
 
Is there any guarantee that Zverev wont beat Rafa next year ?

Or Stefan won't beat him ???

Both of them are great on clay and they are 24 and 23, next year they will be at their absolute peak

No there is no guarantee. But until it happens, it hasn't happened.
 
- USO 2003 SF Nalbandian vs Roddick (assuming the injuries are healed in this hypothetical scenario, if not AO 2006 SF vs Baghdatis).
- AO 2002 F Safin vs T. Johansson
- USO 1995 F Agassi vs Sampras

Honorable mention
- USO 2013 F Djokovic vs Nadal (Or RG that year)
- Olympics 2016 F del Potro vs Murray

If I could include "unrealistic scenarios", matches that weren't close at all:
-Nalbandian vs Hewitt Wimbledon 2002
-Safin vs Ferrero RG 2002 or vs Federer Wimbledon 2008
 
exactly. If Rafa faced anyone else, he'd have won the title. Not having Thiem around really hurt Rafa this year.

So when Rafa starts going down to Tsits or someone like that in the QFs then I'll believe he's done.
With the fact that Nadal uses such a high level of top spin he would bully Tsitsipas BH so I don’t think he would do much but I agree the likes of Zed and all need to start beating him for me too say he won’t win it again.
Med winning against Djokovic was huge as it was a next gen finally beating him in slams. Nadal lose doesn’t count that way as next gen didn’t dethrone him
 
Dominic Thiem would also be back, the guy is hungrier than ever and he has an axe to grind with Rafa.

Field is too tough in 2022.

It could only look tougher in 2023.

Thiem's injury is to his right wrist. He's done. And he was never a threat to Rafa--more a spoiler for Djokovic.
 
Here's my view: I can't say Nadal is finished when 2 of his 3 losses EVER at RG have been to Djok. So for me, right now he's only beatable by one guy. And there's no guarantee that guy even gets to Rafa next year.

Rafa doesn't beat himself like Fed does. I don't see him going down in straight to Medvedev like Djok did (if healthy).
Djokovic is no threat to a healthy Nadal at RG. Nadal was on one foot and it went 4 hours. Thiem actually will be a bigger threat as will Tsitsipas. Djokovic cannot hurt Nadal on clay unless Nadal is compromised. Ruud also a big threat to Nadal should he play again which is by no means certain
 
With the fact that Nadal uses such a high level of top spin he would bully Tsitsipas BH so I don’t think he would do much but I agree the likes of Zed and all need to start beating him for me too say he won’t win it again.
Med winning against Djokovic was huge as it was a next gen finally beating him in slams. Nadal lose doesn’t count that way as next gen didn’t dethrone him
Zverev is kyriptonite for Nadal if he plays well. On any surface.
 
Djokovic is no threat to a healthy Nadal at RG. Nadal was on one foot and it went 4 hours. Thiem actually will be a bigger threat as will Tsitsipas. Djokovic cannot hurt Nadal on clay unless Nadal is compromised. Ruud also a big threat to Nadal should he play again which is by no means certain

Thiem is done, dude.
 
1. 1984 FO final. Worst loss ever
2. 1985 USO final. This match end’s Mac’s run at #1 and it part of his soul. M
3. 2008 Wimbledon. Fed likely ends up with 7 straight WI titles, if not for that epic loss.
 
Ruud or Tsitsipas could win the French open this year, because time has no mercy and both Novak and Nadal are old. Ruud has improved a lot the last months.
 
No butterfly effects:
USO 2021 F (CYGS)
RG 2015 F (CYGS)
RG 2011 SF (Just to see the finals with peak Nole vs scared Bul and potential CYGS)

Butterfly effects:
Hamburg 93 QF (Seles)
USO 1980 F
RG 2013 SF (Nole)
 
AO 2000
Yec 2000 semi
Wimbledon 90 final( Becker was too good on grass to finish with only three Wimbledon title)
Us open 2004
 
No butterfly effects:
USO 2021 F (CYGS)
RG 2015 F (CYGS)
RG 2011 SF (Just to see the finals with peak Nole vs scared Bul and potential CYGS)

Butterfly effects:
Hamburg 93 1/4 (Seles)
USO 1980 F
RG 2013 SF (Nole)
Sorry, but Novak was going to win 2015 RG, then he was not winning us Open 2015, Fed was bad on big points, even in four set match Fed was behind by only 2 points
 
Sorry, but Novak was going to win 2015 RG, then he was not winning us Open 2015, Fed was bad on big points, even in four set match Fed was behind by only 2 points
I listed it assuming no butterfly effects.
 
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@Spencer Gore @Rosstour

In your view how would the Slams race have been today if Pete & Agassi had been just 5 & 6 years younger respectively to Federer instead of 10 years and 11 years respectively ?

Something like 1976 born and 1975 born for both of them now.

1975 - Agassi
1976 - Sampras
1981 - Federer
1986 - Nadal
1987 - Djokovic

I guess Djokovic still benefits the most from this scenario as he peaks the last, but how does it change Roger's mental strength with stronger prev gen ATG? Would Pete be able to adapt to newer racquets or would he still have the huge decline as he was already declining bigtime in 98 itself, can't expect him to be any better if that guy is sent to 2003 facing the axe in the form of Federer?
Impossible to say. The change in string technology and the homogenisation of surfaces (especially the change in Wimbledon grass) has so fundamentally altered the essence of the game that it has created one of the true barriers to such speculation. The same thing happened in the early/mid 80s with the adoption of graphite racquets. It is very close to a different sport.
 
As Much as I like you as a poster but there is no scenario in which Novak ends on 27 and even less chance of Rafa on 23

Look at it this way. If both play until they are 40...

Rafa plays five more times at each Slam = 20 Slams

Novak plays six more times at each Slam = 24 Slams

Is it really so unlikely they each get 3-5 more?
 
I have taken into account butterfly effect :D
Otherwise why will I pick clay matches ?
I hate clay.

I wonder why? ;)

4ad561f0c8cff0abcad8876addb90337cb5062e8_hq.gif
 
But is case of cygs butterfly effect will come in form of extra pressure.
Us Open 21 result will not have butterfly effect for 2021 year
I operate in a hypothetical world where you can change one event without changing others. It's the TT way! :)
 
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A few for the Ladies

1993 Wimbledon Final- Felt for Jana here, and honestly this erases her well known moment of having a breakdown on the shoulder of the duchess of Kent. Had she won this she might not have the reputation she does as a choker and maybe even gains a little more confidence in herself to win a few more and push herself...who knows

2004 Wimbledon SF Sharapova vs Davenport- Take out the rain Davenport flattens her and I would say would beat Serena in the final as well. I'd also substitute any of the 2004 US Open SF, 2005 AO Final and 2005 Wimbledon final for Lindsay. It really is a shame she didn't win ONE of those 4 tournaments.

2001 French Open Final Clijsters vs Capriati- If we are assuming the results could butterfly out and change other things, if Kim had managed to hold on and win this I think her career may have gone very differently. She is great as it is, but I feel like this mentally put her back. She eventually got the "two nice to win a major" label and winning this might have changed her entire trajectory.
 
Sabatini would have lost the final and Seles would have never been stabbed.

The final could have gone either way, but Sabatini had won 7 of their last 8 matches at that point, and their last 2 on clay. Her only win was narrowly in the 91 Wimbledon final, and a month later Graf easily beat Sabatini at Wimbledon in the semis, but both those were grass. Graf's best surface by far, and possibly Sabatini's worst even though she was better than Seles on it.
 
A few for the Ladies

1993 Wimbledon Final- Felt for Jana here, and honestly this erases her well known moment of having a breakdown on the shoulder of the duchess of Kent. Had she won this she might not have the reputation she does as a choker and maybe even gains a little more confidence in herself to win a few more and push herself...who knows

2004 Wimbledon SF Sharapova vs Davenport- Take out the rain Davenport flattens her and I would say would beat Serena in the final as well. I'd also substitute any of the 2004 US Open SF, 2005 AO Final and 2005 Wimbledon final for Lindsay. It really is a shame she didn't win ONE of those 4 tournaments.

2001 French Open Final Clijsters vs Capriati- If we are assuming the results could butterfly out and change other things, if Kim had managed to hold on and win this I think her career may have gone very differently. She is great as it is, but I feel like this mentally put her back. She eventually got the "two nice to win a major" label and winning this might have changed her entire trajectory.

I am not sure the rain is what turned the 2004 Wimbledon semis around. After the rain delay Sharapova began hitting a bit harder, closer to the lines, and cutting down the errors from the part of the match before the rain, and Davenport began hitting slightly less agressively and making a few more errors from the part of the match before the rain. Maria also began serving better (she wasn't serving that well before the rain) and Davenport serving a bit less well. Both play similar games of just a straightforward power baseline game, and aren't great movers even if Maria is less bad of one, so it just depends who is in better form. And who serves better, as this was back when Maria had a big and strong serve too, while Lindsay always had one, as neither are great movers and play great defense, so need to start points ahead to hit their huge groundstrokes rather than be chasing and on the run. In a close match, or 3 setter, Maria will almost always win though, as she is mentally tougher. As borne out by their head to head, a bunch of 3 set wins for Maria and one double bagel for Davenport, LOL!
 
Women’s RG 92 final.
Men’s USOpen 2018 final
Wimbledon men’s 2018 SF the one Nadal lost
 
I am not sure the rain is what turned the 2004 Wimbledon semis around. After the rain delay Sharapova began hitting a bit harder, closer to the lines, and cutting down the errors from the part of the match before the rain, and Davenport began hitting slightly less agressively and making a few more errors from the part of the match before the rain. Maria also began serving better (she wasn't serving that well before the rain) and Davenport serving a bit less well. Both play similar games of just a straightforward power baseline game, and aren't great movers even if Maria is less bad of one, so it just depends who is in better form. And who serves better, as this was back when Maria had a big and strong serve too, while Lindsay always had one, as neither are great movers and play great defense, so need to start points ahead to hit their huge groundstrokes rather than be chasing and on the run. In a close match, or 3 setter, Maria will almost always win though, as she is mentally tougher. As borne out by their head to head, a bunch of 3 set wins for Maria and one double bagel for Davenport, LOL!

Before the rain Davenport was up a set and a break, landing almost 90% of her first serves and running a clinic. Sharapova was conversely playing worse the longer the match was going on and having close to a meltdown on the court. Her body language was totally negative and she was probably a total of 10 minutes away from being knocked out of the tournament had it not rained. She had arguably barely got out of the QF the round before (arguably maybe should have lost that in straight sets) and knew she was getting creamed before the sky opened.

Then the rain came, disrupted Lindsay's rhythm and Maria was able to get off the court long enough to regain her focus. The 2nd set became a battle and then Lindsay crashed because she knew she had it in the bag and lost control when the weather broke out.

No rain, Maria goes bye bye in straight sets and Lindsay has a good chance to win the tournament
 
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