... from your normal serve position, where does it land?
Uh, how does that answer @Slowtwitcher's question [unless you're Sandy]?Pat Dougherty video Throwing and Serving. The throw is directed up.
I studied the frames of ball release and also of the serve swing. Considering the camera frame rates are slow the throw and serve are very close regarding the motion of internal shoulder rotation (ISR).
For this drill, it is best to throw the tennis ball standing stationary, just as on a normal serve.Pat Dougherty video Throwing and Serving. The throw is directed up.
Try doing it when you're pushing 70. Don't think I could have done it even 10 years ago... and now both shoulders are in worse shape (left hip issue doesn't help either)A good server or good thrower with solid throwing mechanics can throw anything that isn’t aerodynamically awkward over the opposite fence without thinking about it. It’s not a difficult task.
Click on up arrow in above quoted post for details. Look at the upper arm, it spins like a top from internal shoulder rotation for the throw and the serve, even the upper arm angles are similar in both the throw and serve for these frames.But I believe that throwing a ball in the way taught by Pat Dougherty does copy motions in the tennis serve including ISR.
To do single frame on Youtube use the "." & "," keys.
Throw frame at ball release with double exposure of forearm motion. Note the upper arm between the shoulder joint and elbow, for this upward throw, even has a similar angle to the serve picture below.
Tennis serve at impact with double exposure of forearm & racket motion. I believe that the arm is straighter at the later time as in high level serves.
There is an incidental double exposure of the arm that shows ISR moving the forearm & ball for the throw and moving the forearm and racket for the serve. The use of ISR - the most difficult sub-motion of the tennis serve - is very similar for both motions. Looks like a good simulation for the server especially as Dougherty teaches throwing the ball upward. Of course, to get speed from ISR the hand for the throw and the racket head for the serve must be located at a distance from the rotation axes of ISR and those angles show in both of the above pictures. Imagine the rotation axes of the upper arm bone.
This same student after two years of development at 5 hours a week.
But I disagree with the demo of the top spin serve given at 3:45, "When we are talking about top spin and kicks we gotta make sure that the racket head is making contact with the level of the grip not way up here". The racket shaft tilts up from the grip to contact for a kick serve in the ATP serve high speed videos that I have seen. ??
By the same token, I'm not big on speed guns because it changes one's focus from sound mechanics and placement to raw speed. Well, that and I doubt I could crack 100mph but that's because the gun wasn't calibrated correctly.Just want to say that while this is a pretty common beginner tennis question, it’s also a really bad idea.
A good server or good thrower with solid throwing mechanics can throw anything that isn’t aerodynamically awkward over the opposite fence without thinking about it. It’s not a difficult task.
But one of the main things it highlights for people without those mechanics is how much effort they need to put into muscling the ball just to get it across the court. This can be a disaster. The ball is so light that those with compromised mechanics feel confident trying too hard, and when you’re trying too hard with muscles that aren’t designed for any job but stabilization, you run a high risk of injury.
When you’re learning to throw, stick with heavier balls like a baseball that let you feel the muscles working and give you the immediate feedback needed to learn and avoid injury. It’s not worth the health of your rotator cuff to try to feel macho.
If you’re confident you can serve and throw well...well, first of all, from what I’ve seen, most of you are wrong, and you’ll still be putting your shoulder health at risk. You’re not 5.0, and you never played in college, and it’s fine to play pretend online, but don’t hurt yourself proving you can accomplish a task any reasonably talented ten year old can duplicate. But if you can REALLY throw well and serve well, then by all means, let ‘er rip. A good motion is perfectly safe. But small imperfections danger it up in a hurry.
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=projectiles+with+air+resistanceYour are right that drag and wind speed are important. The tennis ball is light and drag and wind speed are probably significant factors.
If there were no wind, I don't know if the tennis ball trajectory should be elevated more or less than 45 degrees to get maximum range due to drag. ? I'd go with about 45 degrees for a tennis ball for maximum range with what I know now. ?
For the tennis ball, do you know if the elevation angle would be more or less than 45 degrees for maximum range(no fence) given the drag(no wind speed) ?
Rod Cross has calculated tennis ball trajectories under some circumstances.
Consider projectiles, baseballs, tennis balls and balloons and the effects of air.
With the phone used to make that video ... yeah, I suspect you would (since that would have been at the other end of the court with the sun behind me, and throwing from that position means I can kiss pretty much every ball goodbye and I wasn't prepared to make that sacrifice). But I get the point and wasn't trying to be patronising; when I posted I hadn't seen your last response and was more addressing the scepticism around claims in the affirmative, as if this is some kind of impossible task.You know, some people find different things hard. For example, I wouldn't have a problem picking where to put the camera to light the "scene" correctly
also @SlowtwitcherHow hard is this really?
No running start, no step through, no serious effort. Back fence is nearly 30 feet (9.5 metres with a retractable tape measure).
Difficult to see with the lighting, but I added two videos with different exposures to make it easier, and on at least a couple of those it should be obvious (the first one hit the base of the hedge which is somewhat audible).
Kids try doing it at 76. I can just reach service line and my serve isn't that bad. A group of use tried this when I brought up the challenge and they aren't my age. I particularly wanted one friend that was a high school quarterback try it and after a few tries it went over fence. I have been looking on line at all vids on throwing and it isnt helping. I'm not giving up!Try doing it when you're pushing 70. Don't think I could have done it even 10 years ago... and now both shoulders are in worse shape (left hip issue doesn't help either)
that is funny but you will have to talk to my friend the quarterback because i was so sure he couldnt do it that i gave him a good ball and when thrown over fence it went in woods- goneTried it today. There is a pond 10 metres behind the fence of our courts.
Long story short, you owe me a tennis ball.
Which is why several have pointed out throwing over the back fence might not be the best drill especially if the throwing mechanics are questionable, since it can promote throwing for length and then the form disintegrates. Some of the throwing drills I've seen online recommend landing the ball in the opposing service box, which will change the launch angle. Just as throwing a racquet over a fence from close range can more closely simulate a real serve and is considered by many to be a good drill (I think @SystemicAnomaly liked to use this). But that doesn't mean working on the overall throwing mechanics and using the back fence as a gauge can't have some benefits.The purpose of throwing the ball up is to learn and practice the biomechanics of an effective throw with ISR. This assumes that the player has the high level throwing technique.